BOAC 707 crew video

[Jackbr]

This video is from the blog of a former BOAC Stewardess

Watch Libbie in full flight | Libbie Escolme Schmidt (http://libbieescolmeschmidt.com/?p=215)

Out of curiosity - one of the Stewardesses said she only ever flew 707s. Did BOAC have seperate Cabin Crew divisons for the 707 and VC10? I thought they would have flown on both

This video might bring back a few memories for some :ok:

[XV490]

Excellent video. As for 707/VC10 rostering, my sister was a stewardess on both during her time with BOAC/BA (she joined just before the name change). It was the 747 she never flew on.

[WHBM]

Pleasant enough film, but I wouldn't evaluate it too much for accuracy.

Several shots of Paris, which BOAC never served.

It seems that some of the comments are by pax rather than crew, who probably wouldn't recollect the difference in the two types 707 and VC10.

Shame 411A isn't still around to add his 707 recollections.

[PPRuNe Pop]

Thanks for that. An unusally good video of life on a 707. Pity ALL that great service and style has and is leaving us fast.

I fear that airlines are taking a hit of a lifetime and much more is going to be lost yet. Including an airline or two! The ratio of fixed operating costs to directing operating costs are now very high.

[cyflyer]

Hmmm.... video not working.

[Brit312]

Jackbr

A nice video and thanks for finding it. The Flight Engineer I used to go to Tech College with, back in the early 1960s so some good memories.

In the 60's the cabin crew in BOAC only flew one type, so yes the lady could have only flown B707 and remember the girls had to leave in those days when they got married or reached the age of 35.This meant they sometimes only worked for the company for a few years

In the 70s I believe the cabin crew then flew both B707 and VC10 with the B747 being the elite fleet on it's own.Indeed prior to the introduction of the VC-10 the B707 was considered the elite fleet, and indeed the long range of the later B707 still allowed it hold that title even after the introduction of the B747

I can confirm that BOAC/BA did indeed fly to Paris as on 18/03/75 I operated a VC-10 {G-ASCE} London _ Paris - Nairobi returning on the same route two days later. Now I have to say I do not recall this route in the 60's however.

[WHBM]

I can confirm that BOAC/BA did indeed fly to Paris as on 18/03/75 I operated a VC-10 {G-ASCE} London _ Paris - Nairobi returning on the same route two days later. Now I have to say I do not recall this route in the 60's however.
Sounds like you could have been doing a subcharter for East African Airways, who did this route with their own VC-10s. EAA were starting to fall apart by this time and shortage of their own aircraft might be a cause.

[Jackbr]

I know BOAC took on some Pratt and Whitney powered 707-336B/Cs towards the end of the 1960s/early 70s - I belive Hotel Uniform was an ex-Saturn bird.

LHR-SVO-TYO and LHR-ANC-TYO were 320B/C specific routes, however I think BOAC had more aircraft than was needed for just these two routings.

Did BOAC have any other routes specific to P&W 707s, or did they also operate alongside Conway 707-436s?

[WHBM]

Regarding the BOAC P&W 707s.

The earliest ones, delivered from 1965 onwards, were all-cargo ones. Boeing never produced a 707 with both the cargo door and RR engines, so BOAC had to go for the 707-320C for these. BOAC had a worldwide all-cargo network across all continents, and these operated those routes.

In fact by the end of 1963 the RR 707 was out of production altogether, so BOAC were forced to go for the P&W model if they wanted more. The last BOAC RR aircraft actually came in early 1963, nearly two years before the first VC10 came in late 1964

Hotel Uniform (G-AWHU) was indeed originally ordered by Saturn, but cancelled before delivery and thus taken new by BOAC in August 1968. It retained its Saturn model number, and I believe it had some flight deck layout differences. In accounting terms it was seen as a replacement for RR 707 G-ARWE, which had been destroyed a couple of months before in the Heathrow accident. G-ATZD came from British Eagle a few months later, after the bankruptcy of that airline. All other P&W aircraft were BOAC orders.

G-AXGW/X were 320C aircraft which came in spring 1970 for the operation of the Tokyo via Anchorage route, which was slightly beyond the capabilities of the existing fleet.

G-AXXY/Z were 320B aircraft which came in Spring 1971, the only ones in the fleet without the cargo door, which gave them a further small range and efficiency advantage, and were ordered for the new Tokyo via Moscow route (the "Russiaway" route), which again was stretching things (especially for a westbound alternate if Moscow became closed in winter weather, I believe they normally filed for Helsinki as the alternate). They were also the first aircraft with IFE, in part because the entire westbound trip Tokyo to London was done in daylight rather than as an overnight sleeping service (and of course because IFE was just coming onto the market then).

The two Tokyo services did not require all four aircraft, in fact two could have just about managed them both, so they did appear on other services from time to time.

The last RR 707 was moved over to the Airtours fleet in 1976, whereas the last P&W aircraft went in 1983, so for the last 7 years the whole remaining BA long-haul 707 operation was with the P&W aircraft.

This thread has some interesting comments from the time.

http://www.pprune.org/aviation-history-nostalgia/264232-egll-west-coast-departures-dc8-707-a.html

[Wander00]

Pity, video does not work for me either

[Speedbird48]

That bought back some memories!! Back then it was a real airline and real people. Passengers came dressed for the journey, and not to go to WalMart/Tesco's. The food was great and the service even better. We were also treated very well, unlike today when everyone is a disposable number.
But, I suddenly got a reminded of age when Jerry Nash appeared as I was senior to him!!
The ex-Saturn aircraft were crewed by dedicated crews at least in the begining due to the differences in the instrumentation.
At the risk of starting something I came from VC10's to 707's and, to me it was a backwards move. The VC10 was quieter, more power, better cockpit etc. But the old 436/336 were still good reliable aircraft for their day.
In my early days I was called out from standby on one occaision and deadheaded to Honolulu, on Qantas, to pick up a service back (Westbound) to LHR. I went round the world in 9days!! The next trip was the full San Fransico service which went Eastbound to SFO and then turned around and came back Westbound with all the ramifications of time change etc. not a pleasant trip and 14 days long. The VC10 was doing a round the world service at the time.
Happy days.
Speedbird 48.

[ReverseFlight]

The video worked for me, and brought back very nostalgic memories of my first flight out to the Far East in one of these aircraft a very long time ago. I was seated front row of coach, right up against the partition with the magazine rack separating the classes. So rather than a fold-down table, my dinner tray was a slot-in type from the front, which I somehow managed to dislodge accidentally in the middle of a meal ! A most embarrassing and unforgettable moment when my salt and pepper vials were sent flying.

[cyrilroy21]

Excellent Video of the good old days :D

Does anyone have an idea of how much the pilots were paid during those days ?
How much does that equate to in todays dollars / pounds ?

Also what were the additional benefits of working with an Airline (non cash)
as a pilot ?

[alisoncc]

Also what were the additional benefits of working with an Airline (non cash)as a pilot ?

Don't know about the jockeys back then, but I did alright out of BOAC. In 1969 their engineering management decided to upgrade the DME facility on all aircraft. Previously they had single AVQ70's, the upgrade made them a dual installation. Unfortunately RCA had ceased production of the AVQ70, so the factory in the US started assembling units from their vast inventory of spares. There were no engineers familar with the kit to test them over there, so they just shipped them to Sunbury on Thames for us to sort out.

As an engineer with RCA Aviation I was salaried, hence couldn't claim overtime. The boss said "keep track of the hours, assess them at your 'hourly' rate and I will sign off on expense claims to that value". We were working three or four hours extra a day and most weekends to get the AVQ70 units serviceable, and spending the "overtime" expenses at some of the best restaurants and theatres in London. So thank you BOAC for some of the best times of my life.

[Jackbr]

Thank you for your replies gentlemen,

In addition to the PW 707s listed above there was another aircraft delivered in 1971 - G-AYLT. I think Lima Tango was likely used alongside the 707-436s

[Groundloop]

The earliest ones, delivered from 1965 onwards, were all-cargo ones.

Not quite. They were 320Cs which could be configured for either pax of freight. In their early years they were operated purely by BOAC Cargo but later on were used for pax flights.

Pan Am, on the other hand, did operate some pure-freight 707s, ie they did not have any windows in the cabin.

[Jackbr]

Pan Am's initial 707-321Cs were normally operated as PAX aircraft - in the late 60s the windowless aircraft began to appear.

I think the former cargo G-ASZF went pax at one stage

[The SSK]

For a while, part of my job in the mid 70s was the planning of the North Atlantic freighters. Inevitably each season we would plan a programme for n aircraft, and end up with n-1 as one of the convertibles would end up on passenger duty.

While our programme could theoretically be done – just – with the assets we had, inevitably things would go wrong and we were forever leasing aircraft, often at very short notice. At one point I was promoted and a rather sweet young lady, fresh out of university, was brought in as my assistant. She proved to be a fearsome negotiator with the airlines we were accustomed to use for these ad hoc charters and got their prices down to well below what I had been accepting, she earned her salary many times over, just on that part of the job.

From hazy memory, there was a longish gap when BOAC didn’t operate West Coast nonstops. In the 60s they had used 436s on San Francisco, which was at the limit of their range – the story went that they would refuel immediately on landing, when the tanks were cold and they could get more in. When Los Angeles was introduced in the 70s I think it started off as a 336 route before it switched to 747s.

[WHBM]

There were various types of 320C aircraft. Some seem to have hauled the cargo door and strengthened floor about with them all their life without ever getting put into the cargo configuration - for US carriers I believe there was a federal subsidy to do this to form part of a reserve military capability, but others overseas did the same. Some were configured internally for cargo, but retaining their wndows. Then there were cargo-configured aircraft which had plugs in the windows, and depending on how well the livery had been applied you might think they had none, but they could be converted back over. I think the Pan Am ones were like this. Lastly there were I believe those built by Boeing with no window apertures, which restricted them to cargo operations for all time. There weren't many of these but I believe the American Airlines freighter fleet were like this.

Did BOAC use the plugs ?

In passing, when a cargo aircraft was delivered to BOAC, did it come with all the cabin furnishings ? Were they kept in store somewhere ready to be used ?

there was a longish gap when BOAC didn’t operate West Coast nonstops. In the 60s they had used 436s on San Francisco, which was at the limit of their range
My 1962 BOAC timetable shows a 707 service BA591/2 several days a week to Los Angeles with an unspecified "technical landing" (which I am guessing might have been Winnipeg). These would be the original RR 707s.

By my 1971 BOAC timetable, Los Angeles was now served by a daily VC10, still BA591/2, which operated through New York. This was the through transpacific flight from Sydney, which eastbound departed LAX at midnight, and formed the morning "daylight" departure from JFK to London. Can't have been very competitive with the Pan Am/TWA nonstops.

This was replaced in BA times in the mid-1970s by another curious arrangement, where for some years BA chartered daily an Air New Zealand DC-10 operating through LAX to London, with full BA crews (I believe they went from London over to KLM at Amsterdam for DC-10 sim sessions). BA wouldn't use their 747-100s to the West Coast either, despite the US carriers doing so, it wasn't until the first 747-200Bs came along in 1978 that they changed over LAX and started San Francisco. Being a regular pax on the route then, I was on one of the last DC-10s and also one of the first 747s.

Sorry, long way from 707s !

[NutherA2]

Like cyflyer & Wander 00 the video doesn't work for me; can anyone explain ?

[Dave Barnshaw]

I can confirm that I flew to Paris on G-ARRB on the 31st.of May 1975,a truly great aircraft once you got used to seeing the egines 'going up and down'.:)

[Jackbr]

This photo series may also be of interest,

BOAC photos taken 1965 to 1968 - a set on Flickr (http://www.flickr.com/photos/69695107@N00/sets/72157622583386915/with/2513503544/)

Are the photos of the crew onboard the flight to Tokyo with the Japanese stewardesses on a 707 or VC10?

[Non Zero]

Awesome pics! The 60s were the golden age for aviation business ...

[D120A]

Jackbr, IIRC those units over the seat rows are distinctly B707.

[finncapt]

Ex BOAC VC10 and BA Air New Zealand DC10 driver.

If I recall correctly we used to operate the occasional service via Paris thence via Nairobi to Mauritius.

At that time Air Mauritius long haul services from London were operated by BOAC VC10s.

There was, originally, Air Mauritius banners stuck on the sides of the aircraft.

This procedure was abandonned when one partially detached during flight and subsequent services didn't have the banners.

The services were MK52/53 my logbook tells me.

We DC10 crews did use the KLM simulater as the ANZ aircraft were KSSU configured (strip engine instruments amongst other items) like KLM.

The conversion course was about 3 months in NZ and, as a 30 year old, I had an absolute ball of a time on it.

Towards the end of the contract the aircraft was only used on the LAX twice a week and we used to fly it to YMX, BOS (PHL shuttle) and MIA on the other days.

This meant long slips rather than the usual 24hr east coast rotations of other fleets.

[Halcyon Days]

I was BOAC cabin crew for a few years. Operated on Standard and Super VC.10s as well as 436/336 and Freighter 707s.
SEPs were a nightmare as you had to remember the safety drills/stowages etc for all the variants.
Did a couple of services for Air Mauritius-doing shuttles between Nairobi and Mauritius.
Also did several 591s (round the world trips) which took 3 weeks. On one memorable occasion-during the 6 day war ?-I think it was-the service took twice as long-so we had a 6 week trip-as BOAC reduced the service to every other day due to fuel shortages -instead of daily. Route was London/New York/Los Angeles/Honolulu/Fiji/Sydney/we then airlined on Air NZ to Auckland/ then Auckland/Sydney/Melbourne/Darwin/Hong Kong/Delhi/Dubai and home. Had a week off as normal rest-and then got called out on standby to do another one. Tough-but someone had to do it.A great life if you were young and single
Still got my log books of all my trips-with a/c reg/route etc.
It was a great company to work for in those days and you felt proud to be part of it.

[WHBM]

I was BOAC cabin crew ..... and Freighter 707s.
Now here's an area that has always interested me to know more. I had read that BOAC provided a steward to serve the crew on freighters. What were these duties like ? Did many other operators do so ? What galley provision was there ? Is it correct that there were a couple of pax seats as well ?

[Jackbr]

I'd be very interested to hear too - Since most, if not all, of BOACs 707-336C "Cargo" freighters could be, and often were, converted to pax duty if the schedule called, the galleys were likely the same as the rest of the fleet - happy to be corrected! Was it always a male steward on the freighters or would Stewardesses fly too?

Until recently Qantas used to fly 767 night freighter flights to New Zealand (granted they were pax aircraft just operating cargo duty) and a single FA was onboard to arm/disarm doors, heat meals etc - so perhaps it is reasonably common for Cabin Crew to fly on freighter services.

[Proplinerman]

Apart from BOAC, who else flew the Conway-powered 707s? I can only think of EL AL and Lufthansa. Any others?

[Jackbr]

Air India and Varig

[WHBM]

Original 707-420 Rolls Royce purchasers were BOAC (the majority), Lufthansa, Air India, Varig, El Al and British Eagle. The last one came at the end of 1963, to Varig, they all then moved on to P&W versions.

Comparable DC8-40 Rolls Royce purchasers were Trans Canada (later Air Canada), Canadian Pacific, and Alitalia. Again they all moved on to P&W. Production of these lasted until 1965. Douglas had a shot at re-engining a couple they had been saddled with as trade-ins in the 1970s with P&W engines, but not a successful programme. Probably too expensive.

They all became dogs on the secondhand market, being so non-standard, and many were retired when finished with by their original owners (the BOAC fleet passed on to BEA Airtours being a notable exception). You will also notice that production finished just at the time that VC10 production, also powered by RR Conways, was starting.

[Proplinerman]

Thanks for that Jackbr and WHBM.

[Peter47]

I remember reading somewhere that BOAC did have separate cabin crews for 707s & VC10s which were merged sometime in the 60s. I can't remember quite when. Sorry I can't be me more precise.

[Halcyon Days]

We were "dual rated" on 707s and VC.10s-during my time there- in the mid 1970s.
The standard VC10s were being phased out-but did a fair few trips on them still.
At the time I was there only stewards were allowed to do the freighters-but I seem to recall it changed after I left.
It was a tiny galley-and certainly not a standard one-as fitted on normal 707s. There was a small oven and some stowages for food containers plus a hot cup-for boiling water,a stores cupboard and that was about it!!
Before departing (overseas destinations only) -the steward would contact the Captain and ask if they had any special food requests-and certainly at places like Hong Kong/Tokyo etc-you could then order pretty much anything-the crew wanted (Lobster/Pheasant etc etc) and as long as you had an alternative choice of menu for the F/O or F/E-pretty much anything was available. Needless to say-we ate well too of course. There was also a small amount of cigarettes and half bottles of spirits available for the crew to buy if required.
There were two double galley jump seats-one forward and one rear facing-but no passenger seats at all. You could squeeze down the side of the cabin-to visually check the cargo (in case of smoke/leakages etc??).
Carried a White Rhino on one occasion with an Indian handler-and he sat on one of the jump seats.
Most of my freighter trips-I would be invited to occupy the cockpit for take off landing. On arriving at destination overseas-the crews would usually split up as Flt deck and cabin crew would in most places stay in different hotels.
Some of the flight deck crew in those days were old school still and wanted there to be an obvious class differential (them and us etc) but mostly by then things had begun to change and most flt deck crews were seemingly embarrased to have to leave you on your own for a few days-until you met up again for the next leg and would often invite you to meet up in their hotel etc the next day.

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

A friend of mine was BEA (later BA) flight crew based Heathrow when the BOAC 707s were in service. He lived somewhere south of Heathrow, and remembers that when operating easterly departures (involving a 180 degree turn after T/O to head west to the 'States) the 707s would pass over his house very low and very loud. It seems they were a tad underpowered, and couldn't climb much, if at all, during that post T/O 180 degree turn.

Also, in the video, is a 707 on short final to what looks like Kai Tak. Note the nose-down attitude of the aeroplane, quite unlike today's jets which, when slowed down to final approach speed, are pitched noticably nose-up. Why was that 707 so nose-down right to the threshold?

[cyflyer]

For those BOAC fans out there, I've just discovered a new dvd that being released this month, called BOAC: The definitive newsreel history. Sounds good and I'll certainly be getting it. Also there's a BEA one and an Imperial Airways one from the same company. If anyone's seen any previews anywhere it would be interesting to hear what they think of them.

Boac: The Definitive Newsreel History 1939-1974 DVD: Amazon.co.uk: Film & TV

[Jackbr]

How many cabin crew used to fly on the 707 and VC10s?

I know some 707s used to have a small lounge area at the front of the aircraft opposite the forward galley. Did BOAC 707s have this lounge, or the crew rest seats?

[Halcyon Days]

Always 6 cabin crew-unless it was a check flight-where you might (annually on average) be assessed by a training steward/ess.
3 in First class and 3 in the back. The Chief Steward (always male in those days) would normally help out at the back during a meal service etc
During my time- time there were only First class and economy sections-nothing in between. Some of the 436s were in all economy config (174Y)and would normally be used on the North Atlantic affinity group charters etc to Toronto/New York etc-although did do one trip to Varna (Bulgaria)-which may have been an Airtours sub charter?-but cant recall the details??
None of the 707s had a seperate lounge at the front that I ever remember seeing. Crew rest area-didnt exist as such and you would sit on a bar box in the rear galley or the normal double jump seat by the rear exits.

[Halcyon Days]

"A friend of mine was BEA (later BA) flight crew based Heathrow when the BOAC 707s were in service. He lived somewhere south of Heathrow, and remembers that when operating easterly departures (involving a 180 degree turn after T/O to head west to the 'States) the 707s would pass over his house very low and very loud. It seems they were a tad underpowered, and couldn't climb much, if at all, during that post T/O 180 degree turn.

Also, in the video, is a 707 on short final to what looks like Kai Tak. Note the nose-down attitude of the aeroplane, quite unlike today's jets which, when slowed down to final approach speed, are pitched noticably nose-up. Why was that 707 so nose-down right to the threshold?"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

I recall positioning back from Tokyo to London (via Moscow) on a BOAC 707 and it was a "curvature of the earth" take off if ever you saw one!!
Seemed to be glued to the ground forever-with a barely perceptable climb rate for what seemed like a lifetime afterwards.

Likewise 707-freighter take offs from Dubai-were always planned to be at night due to performance issues.(Fortunately no high rise buildings there either then!!)

[primreamer]

WHBM,
You are correct in guessing Winnipeg for B707 "unspecified" tech stops. My (very old) Junior Jet Club log book entry for 12th December 1973 has me on G-ATZD, LHR-LAX with a flight time of 13 hours and 30 mins. We landed in Winnipeg for fuel. I believe this was a P+W powered aircraft so there were still occasions when loads, winds, weather etc meant the trip couldn't be done in one go even for these later aircraft?

[The SSK]

Halcyon Days: Some of the 436s were in all economy config (174Y)and would normally be used on the North Atlantic affinity group charters etc to Toronto/New York etc

As was the daily BA605/606 London-Prestwick-Toronto vv when I was at PIK in 1969. 174 hot lunches between LHR and PIK!

The usual configuration of the 707s was 16F130Y, occasionally 20/120. Super VC10s were normally 16/123 and Standards 12/99.

[Halcyon Days]

The tech stops via Winnipeg (and sometimes Calgary ) were also to change cabin crew.
Believe it or not-BASSA union rules in those days would not permit the cabin crew to continue-but the flight deck crew still could and did-whereas the cabin crew slipped.
So even if a flight could make it direct from London-due to tailwinds/light loads etc-it would still have to stop to make a cabin crew change. It was just one of those crazy union driven agreements that prevailed in those days-that went a long way towards making it a major financial loser-but nobody seemed to care then-as it was government owned?

[Jackbr]

Mrs Thatcher took care of that!

[wayoutwest]

hi halcyon days.it would be great to see some extracts from your logs from a time when flying was fun.:ok::ok:

[Speedbird48]

Halcyon Days,
We must have met.
The 436's were not exactly overpowered and a hot day and a heavy load would need the Hatton Cross lights to be Green at times!! With the use of the easterly runways at LHR the wind would be light and normally it would be warmish in the summer.
I remember a Bermuda trip on a hot day using 28R and I looked up from the gauges, and we had not reached V1, to see the Techincolor factory chimney passing on the right, all wheels firmly on the ground and we were into the narrow part of the Western end of the runway!! At this point I gritted my teeth a bit hard and had a repair job done in Bermuda. The repair to the broken tooth is still there to remind me.
On another trip to Toronto we were so heavy that we flight planned to Gander as that was all we could make initially. Later we were able to get higher and replan to Toronto with minimums.
The Bulgaria trip you mention would have been a normal charter as Airtours had not got into longer trips. I did one with DC Davies as the Captain and he was his usual difficult self making it interesting with the Eastern block folks.
Towards the end of their mainline service the 436's did quite a lot of interesting charter trips and I seemed to get chosen for a lot of them!!!
Speedbird 48.

[Halcyon Days]

The Varna I operated is shown in my log book as a Captain Brister (although I may have entered incorrectly-Bristow-sounds more likely??) 29/09/73 on
G-APFF.
We had 147 pax out and 174 inbound.
I was only there a few years and then went and got a real job working in ops for various airlines!! I rarely flew twice with any cabin crew I knew to be honest -although would occasionaly bump into someone down route that I knew. I dont have a D.C.Davies in the book either-but there were plenty of others such as Hendy/Parkin/Parry/Lymn/Hart/Nye/Tate and who would forget Walpole!!



Wayoutwest-pm me your home e mail address and I will send a copy of a couple of years entries-which I have now transposed onto an Excel spreadsheet. Will give you some idea of the routes/a/c used etc.

[WHBM]

This Varna charter in 1973 (from Heathrow or Gatwick, may I ask ?) is a notable rarity. A small inclusive tour business had been built up to Bulgaria at this time, which was wholly in the hands of Balkan Holidays, a Bulgarian government agent, although with offices in London. Other UK tour operators did not go there; the whole thing was a foreign exchange raising operation. They chartered entirely from the Balkan Airlines, the Bulgarian national airline, with a range of eastern types. They always seemed to have good commercial skills and their holidays were cheap, and featured in many travel agencies. Their departures were entirely daytime on Saturday and Sunday (note this 1973 date was a Saturday) which was a real bonus for cheap trips compared to overnight Tuesday flights to Palma. They were apparently particularly popular with those who favoured socialism (especially coal miners I read), and departure points like East Midlands and Glasgow were common. In the season Balkan Airlines required several of their quite small fleet of jets to operate the UK charters each weekend, each aircraft doing two round trips in a day from Varna or Bourgas.

So what were BOAC doing with a charter full both ways going there ? I would presume a subcharter of some sort to Balkan Airlines, as a sub for one of their Tu154s. A state-owned airline in Bulgaria would presumably look to the state-owned carrier in another country as their first contact (especially as BA and Balkan were in pool on scheduled services to Sofia). Still, most surprising. 174 pax on the inbound is, by no mean coincidence, the seating capacity of an all-economy Balkan Tu154A of the time.

[Halcyon Days]

I am afraid I dont know much about the history of it-(it was from and to LHR)
or which tour operator it was for. I certainly remember Balkan in later years doing flights through most of the UK regional airports with 154s and I think 134s.
I can recall-we were delayed on the ground for some forgotten reason and that the Chief steward made an apology on the P.A and added some slightly insensitive comment along the lines of "I bet you cant all wait to get away from this god forsaken country" (cant recall the actual words-but I am sure you get the gist of it.)
He was then very embarrassed to have to publicly apologise again a short while later-as it turned out that amongst the passengers was some bigwig from the Bulgarian ministry of Tourism-so I suspect it may have been a special charter of some sort-possibly carrying travel agents?

[Speedbird48]

Halcyon Days,

It was Dave Brister that you flew with. He went on to the Concorde fleet later.
The Varna flights were all from LHR and I see from my log book that these odd ball charters were mainly in 1973 and they included Tahitti in January, Bourgas in May, Kansas City on September, and a very interesting one to Nairobi via Cairo in December.
Again going back to the 436's lack of performance the Nairobi take off was at 1am and all we could flight plan was to Luxor, and even then with a restricted load. We then replanned in the air and made it to Cairo. Whereas the VC10 could leave Nairobi at mid-day and go direct to LHR with a full load. The curvature of the earth was made for Boeing and the 436 and earlier versions until the first 747's came along when they used it all up.
In my previous post I mentioned that I was waiting to hear V1 as we passed Technicolor on 28R when in actual fact V1 had already been called and I was wondering where "V2 and Rotate" had got to!!! The Colnbrook cabbage field was awful close!!

Speedbird 48.

[merlinxx]

Varna with Balkan Hols...TABSO operated into LGW with IL-18s in the mid 60s for Balkan hols. I know as I got trays of the nicest peaches & peach brandy off those flights, crew had to be escorted to duty free during the turnround:ok:

[Halcyon Days]

Didnt do any trips on 707s through Nairobi-it was always VC.10s.
We did various shuttles based in Nairobi though-and you would operate Nairobi/Blantyre/Nairobi-or Nairobi/Mauritius/Nairobi perhaps.
There was a short 4 or 5 hour slip there and we would be shuttled to a nearby hotel-and would just have time for a swim/lunch etc and it was back into uniform for the return leg. All very civilised!!
Did a trip through the Seychelles-(NBO/SEZ/CMB) when the flight deck crew slipped and we went on to Columbo.
The new crew had been staying in a hotel in the North of the island-and so the story went- had made "friends" with a female resident and decided to show off the aircraft a bit.
We only had 10 pax on board-so after take off -kept low and flew all around the Island at about 1000ft (approx)-before climbing back and on route to CMB. Would liked to have seen it from the ground-but it was very impressive watching out of the window from the rear row of seats. Before take off we had been told by the Chief to take a window seat-instead of our normal crew seats-as he knew what was going to happen.

[XV490]

My sister, who flew as cabin crew in both 707s and VC10s with BOAC/BA, said the video brought back happy memories. She recalls the Kuwaiti royal family chartering a BOAC VC10 in the early 70s, the crew themselves being treated royally afterwards at some palace or other. Beats Ryanair.

[Discorde]

Delayed response!

Why was that 707 so nose-down right to the threshold?

The nose down pitch attitude on final approach is a characteristic of aircraft without high-lift leading edge devices when their trailing edge flaps are extended. Examples include DC8s and early 707s. Subsequent jet transports featured leading edge devices (slats) which require nose-higher pitch attitudes when extended to achieve the correct angle of attack for the wings. These devices improve take-off and landing performance significantly (greater lifting capabilities and less runway length required).

[ExSp33db1rd]

See also the BOAC B707 Ops in the 1960's thread. ( Merge ? )

The Varna I operated is shown in my log book as a Captain Brister (although I may have entered incorrectly-Bristow-sounds more likely??) 29/09/73 onCorrect, Dave flew Concorde and then moved to SIA 747's. There was also a Capt. Norman Bristow, tho' I think he spent more time on the VC-10, where he once featured in an Australian TV Ad. for the VC-10

Now here's an area that has always interested me to know more. I had read that BOAC provided a steward to serve the crew on freighters.
Correct, tho' stewardesses were not allowed in my time, but I believe they served on freighters after that.

Once flew as F/O on a freighter service with the then 707 Flt. Mgr. He had attended an ICAO ( or IATA ? ) conference where, he said, they laughed at him when he told them that BOAC carried a steward on a freighter. I asked him if he told them what he paid his pilots, so that they could laugh at him some more. ( I didn't get a landing for the rest of that trip ! )

BOAC operated the -336 versions, spoken of, as Combi's, i.e. a freight door at the back, with the last section being partitioned off from the pax. cabin when used in the freight mode as opposed to the full pax mode. The ones operating the Tokyo - Moscow service had to load special high specific gravity fuel in Tokyo to make it. I don't think (?) Helsinki could be nominated as an alternate, the Soviets insisting that any flight entering the USSR must land in the USSR, not overfly. Getting the weather for Moscow was a nightmare, and one Capt. diverted to Leningrad as a result, only to find that there was no hotel accom. and the crew were "accommodated" in the airport Police cells overnight - unlocked of course - to satisfy "minimum crew rest". Can't recall what happened to the pax. Next day he was refused a flight plan to London as his "licence" was Moscow - London, not Leningrad - London, so he had to fly down to Moscow and then on to London. By then Moscow - London pax. had been taken by other carriers, and the disembarking pax had been flown down to Moscow from Leningrad, so there was no need to land at Moscow, hence the request to just continue to London. Denied.

The next Capt. to find Moscow below limits on arrival, said "stuff that" or words to that effect, and flew straight off to Helsinki. This caused an International Incident and BOAC were threatened with loss of their operating certifiicate because they had overflown the whole of the USSR without landing.

The BOAC Agent in Moscow was awakened early one morning and asked why "his" aircraft was off track over Siberia ( the only Nav. aids were not-very-good NDB's ). How do I know, he replied, it's not due in Moscow for another 4 hours. The point I'm making is that the Soviets were able to track the aircraft across the USSR, decide that it looked as if it was straying into a sensitive area - our track was always unnecessarily long to avoid "certain" areas of Siberia - identify it, locate the Moscow agent and wake him up at home, yet they were unable to provide the crew with actual weather reports for Moscow whilst enroute.

BA purchased a dedicated freighter ( 747 - 200 F ? memory failure ! ) but decided it wasn't economical, so sold it to Cathay Pacific, and then realised that they had done their sums using a full cabin crew complement, hotels, crew allowances etc. like a pax. a/c, so asked for it back. Get stuffed ( or words to that effect ) replied Cathay, so then BA had no dedicated freighter, and passed - or did - all their so-called BA Freight through Atlas Air out of Stansted. No idea what their present arrangement is, and don't care ( see my last remark)

Watch Libbie in full flight | Libbie Escolme SchmidtFlew with Libbie, she has also written a book "Glamour in the Skies"

Does anyone have an idea of how much the pilots were paid during those days ?I started as a Nav/P3 at GBP 600 per annum and retired when the Senior Captain First Class rate was 24K GBP. (don't ask me what my BA pension is today - I might tell you ! )

It was a great company to work for in those days and you felt proud to be part of it.Used to be, now that they've kicked me out of a promised life time of Staff Rebate Travel in retirement due to my having passed my "Use By" date under retrospective conditions that they applied to the likes of me 5 years ago - rebate travel was always a "concession" not a contractual right, but it was promised - they can get stuffed, and they won't get a cent of my hard-earned pension when I now buy my tickets - on Emirates or the like. Tough. Sad, too, I owe a lot to BOAC (less to BA) for many reasons, but the way they have treated their long-retired over this issue is unacceptable, total lack of integrity, loyalty is a one-way street with the present BA / IAG management.