Qantas Asia Business Model

[standard unit]

A sneak peek at the Qantas Asia business model, how it'll effect cabin crew and the immorality of the Qantas group.

Jetstar accused of exploiting cabin crew - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2011-07-27/jetstar-accused-of-exploiting-cabin-crew/2813208)

[Bad Adventures]

Great to see this has finally come out. Also great to see the pilots coming out to bat for their crew. :ok:

[Neptunus Rex]

It's also great to see Senator Xenophon taking up the cudgels. He will surely get the air time!
(No pun intended.)

[Mstr Caution]

Difference between Tiger & Thai Airways events are we can view the data on webtrack or QAR data.

As for the Jetstar case the precursor to an operational event is the crew self reports.

Would CASA care to comment?

[my oleo is extended]

Does this entire situation sit comfortably within the widely spruiked ICAO 'Just Cultue' policy ?
Is this situation 'wolds best practise' ?
Is this truly safety first ?

[assasin8]

The truth is out there...

Well done Senator Xenophon! At least one pollie who actually looks after his constituents!:ok:

[simsalabim]

AM - Jetstar rebuts fatigue claims 28/07/2011 (http://www.abc.net.au/am/content/2011/s3279637.htm)

Employees of this airline are now delivered to the aircraft by "suppliers" and "providers"and if they , "these people",have a problem with fatigue according to Buchanan can "write to me".
This is a truely toxic outfit.

[600ft-lb]

You just need to see where management are coming from.

Best practice - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Best_practice)

Nothing in the accepted definition of best practice mentions treating staff in accordance with best practice. It's a buzzword of todays globalisation focused world. It's all about seeing who can cut the most and following that guy. If they able to get away with forcing staff to work potentially unlimited hours in a country, obviously that's Best Practice.

Best Practice has got nothing to do with treating staff like anything else except a measurable number on a piece of paper. Why do we all think there is so many consultants like Bain & Co at Qantas. They're measuring all of us against the lowest common denominators out there, in Thailand, Phillipines, Mainland China etc.

Management 101 - leave your morals at the door thanks.

[Mstr Caution]

Listening to BB's response, leaves me with more unanswered questions:

1. In the senate inquiry, I was led to believe that J* had a very robust safety reporting system. Why is it then, that the first J* has heard of the fatigue report (Thai crew) was thru the media?

2. J* claim to have a "Just Culture" & Fatigue management system. However both have failed on this occasion. Do the service providers in Asia operate to the Just culture system"?

3. What has actually changed as a result of all the cabin crew "Oscar" reports, is fatigue being managed? Or are reports just filed away?

4. BB stated that AIPA wanted Qantas pilots in Jetstar jobs which is incorrect as per AIPA's claim.

5. Why is it that Jetstar employees feel compelled to go to the media as opposed to Jetstar management? Do they not trust the safety reporting system?

6. Didn't Jetstar learn from the "Toughen up princess" letter? More letters to staff bullying when reporting fatigued.

7. Does it not concern Jetstar, Qantas or CASA that they don't have "control" due minority stakes in their service providers?

8. BB stated he "encouraged" crew not to operate if fatigued. Should he have stated that J* don't permit as part of their policy any crew to operate who is fatigued?

9. BB response focussed on what happened to the crew after reporting fatigued. Why were the crew fatigued in the first place? Over worked / poor rostering / Long duties?

MC

[600ft-lb]

I just posted this in another thread, thought it pertinent here as well;

Milgram (http://drdianehamilton.wordpress.com/2011/07/15/milgram%E2%80%99s-experiment-horrible-bosses-and-dwight-shrute-co-workers/)

http://www.socialsounds.net/milgram.gif

VOLT S – 450 VOLT S” (Blass, 2004, p. 79). Initially, the “shocker” started giving a low voltage of what they believed was an actual shock, and they were then asked to gradually increase the voltage in response to suggestions from the experimenter, who would say things like:
1. Please continue.
2. The experiment requires that you continue.
3. It is absolutely essential that you continue.
4. You have no other choice, you must go on.
The experiment was intended to show just how far the “shocker” would go, based on receiving commands from someone in authority. This was all part of an experiment done at Yale. Predictions on how many people would be willing to continue to shock at high voltage levels were low … about 3%. In actuality, however, 65% were willing to give them the juice at the maximum level.

Milgram had the following to say about the results: “Ordinary people, simply doing their jobs, and without any particular hostility on their part, can become agents in a terrible destructive process. Moreover, even when the destructive effects of their work become patently clear, and they are asked to carry out actions incompatible with fundamental standards of morality, relatively few people have the resources needed to resist authority”

[1A_Please]

You mean one pollie more concerned about his constituents than retaining his Chairman's Lounge invitation!!!!

[DirectAnywhere]

I was astounded by Buchanan's response to Nick Xenophon's allegations this morning. His opinion of Richard Woodward was to be expected but to launch in boots and all into Nick Xenophon, frankly one of the few politicians I've seen with character and integrity was appalling.

And in addition I think it's disappointing that Senator Xenophon, you know who I've reached out to a number of times saying I'm available to, if he's got any enquires. And he chooses to raise these sorts of allegations in the media rather than pick up the phone.

And I think at this time more than any in Australia we really need some great political leaders and some real leadership and we're not getting it from our political leaders when they behave like this.

Nick, you are one of the few politicians who seems to talk sense and the Australian public seem to have a great deal of respect for - myself included. I don't always agree with you but PLEASE keep going as you are.

Interesting to see a photo of Nick and Natasha Stott Despoja in the paper yesterday. I don't know if it's in the pipeline but any political party fronted by those two would get my vote.

Oh and Bruce, you've just accused Richard Woodward of misleading the senate enquiry. To do so would be a serious offense under Australian law so I assume you'll be providing evidence of his misconduct to the AFP? No, didn't think so.

[Mstr Caution]

Yes, we all know how BB has always made himself available to Nick Xenophon.

Like the time AJ & BB failed to show at the senate inquiry. :yuk:

[1A_Please]

Maybe they'll get Travolta back to revoice the safety video:

In the event of an emergency it is the cabin crew that is most important to you. These people are paid $7 per hour and may not have slept for 24 hours. Good luck with that!!

[Poto]

So the Thai cabin receive $258/month plus$7hr per flight hour. And BB tells the ABC that they earn up to $30k per annum:D without busting the, load of crap, FRMS that the QF group have been forced to embrace.

That means they fly 74hrs a week with no annual leave:\

I think Bruce is using Allan's faulty calculator:ugh:

When will this End:oh:

[Mstr Caution]

Contact Qantas | Contact Centres and Office Contacts (http://www.qantas.com.au/travel/airlines/contacts-telephone-sales/global/en)

Qantas Bangkok Office IS Tour East Thailand.

Arms length? Minority Interest?

So the Jetstar Flight Attendant service provider is also the Qantas Office.

[Enema Bandit's Dad]

Why is there an Asian dating advertisment at the bottom of this thread??:uhoh: And I'm being fair dinkum too! :bored:

[my oleo is extended]

When will this End:oh:

When experienced airline managers actually run the airline
When safety driven and safety focused managers actually run the airline
When the public, politicans and entire aviation community say enough is enough
Hopefully before a smoking hole graces the front page of The Australian
When personal greed, never ending pissing contests and over inflated ego's are removed from the aviation industry's core

[lame1]

BB stated in the papers that the average hours worked by Thai crew was 24 hrs ,so if you do the maths total renumeration for the year is 11832 for the average worker.$258/month plus$7hr per flight hour.What did he tell the senate

[Sunfish]

BARBARA MILLER: Five Thai based crew though said that they'd felt too tired to operate a Sydney to Melbourne flight and were castigated for that and asked by their Thai based employer to give guarantees that they would not repeat that behaviour.

That surely is unacceptable.

BRUCE BUCHANAN: That is unacceptable. And that's why we've gone back to the supplier when we were aware of the allegations yesterday and said this is unacceptable.

We've told TET who recruit cabin crew on our behalf, and there's a number of these sorts of suppliers in countries like Thailand and Singapore and Asian markets where they recruit crew for a number of airlines.

And we've said, look that may be acceptable to other airlines where you chastise and intimidate them. But that's just not just part of the standards of the Qantas Group and we find it unacceptable that you've issued these letters.

What is unacceptable to BB is that the crew publicly complained.

So here we are folks; Qantas is paying its senior management top dollars to implement a foreign labour hire strategy that any Two bit property developer could have done for almost nothing..... So much for grand strategy, this is pure, simple, stupid, pointless idiocy on behalf of Qantas.

This folks is the "supplier/fulfillment" business model in all it sordid, **** covered, smelly glory.

The theory goes that the value of Qantas is in the brand and nothing else. The theory goes that all the components that go to make up the airline are merely "business inputs" that can be provided by "suppliers" who will provide the required product or service for a simple fee.

In this theory, you are not a "pilot" but a "provider of piloting services". Qantas simply pays someone to provide "piloting services" and that is the end of it. The folks who do all this are called "supply chain managers".

The idea behind all this is that risk is systematically removed, or so Qantas management thinks. They don't have to worry about care and feeding of employees, retirement, training, rosters, etc. etc. One simple monthly fee to the supplier takes care of all that.

The ultimate abstraction of this business model has the senior management and Board sipping champagne as the only employees of the business, with literally everything else being contracted out - pilots, engineering, cabin crew, wet leased aircraft - the lot. All the owners have to do is collect the money and pay the suppliers.


The trouble with this wonderful concept is a little matter called "value added" Every one of your suppliers in this beautiful construct takes away a tiny little morsel of your value added. Furthermore, and what is worse, it denies you any chance of adding extra value - because that requires staff to do something more than they contracted for. This is where this model trips and falls flat on its face like Qantas is in the process of doing.

So lets take our Thai Jetstar cabin crew....

When there is an over run, accident and fire at Darwin or Den Pasar, I will say right now that I expect that those Thai Cabin crew will be first off the aircraft and to hell with you and your family. Did they contract to die fighting bravely for the lives of their Qantas passengers? No way! They are simply contractors.

Mother gets asthma and requires a drink of water in flight? No way, I'm just a contractor.

Same with engineers and pilots - sorry fella, I just do as I'm told, fixing your problems is not covered by my pay grade.

I've told my son I'll disinherit him if he flies Jetstar anywhere, and I mean it.

The model was made to work by guys like Lindsay Fox, Toll and Patrick, but even some of their customers are taking their logistics back inside because they were losing control.

[Capt Kremin]

It is interesting that the worm seems to be turning regarding the media and QF/JQ. Maybe they have noted the level of support the pilots are getting just from their PA campaign?

[skybed]

If you are unfairly treated you Must fill this in!!!!!!!!!!!!!

REPCON - Aviation Confidential Reporting Scheme


What is REPCON?

REPCON is a voluntary confidential reporting scheme. REPCON allows any person who has an aviation safety concern to report it to the ATSB confidentially. Protection of the reporter's identity and any individual referred to in the report is a primary element of the scheme.

REPCON - Aviation Confidential Reporting Scheme (http://www.atsb.gov.au/voluntary/repcon-aviation.aspx)

Please pass this on too all F/A's of J* here and abroad.

[skybed]

to address Flight Duty Limitations for cabin crew. Australia and NZ appears to be the Only western countries which have no FTL for cabin crew.
A disgrace!!:ugh:

[framer]

I've told my son I'll disinherit him if he flies Jetstar anywhere, and I mean it.

LOL thats gold.....it was a joke yeah?

[Captain Peacock]

So the Thai cabin receive $258/month plus$7hr per flight hour. And BB tells the ABC that they earn up to $30k per annum:D without busting the, load of crap, FRMS that the QF group have been forced to embrace.

Maybe he meant 30,000 Baht? :suspect:

[gordonfvckingramsay]

:ok:

Jetstar denies exploiting cabin crew (http://news.ninemsn.com.au/video.aspx?videoid=eb9e0eb8-f03f-4380-ad7a-c000b5498628)

[UPPERLOBE]

What a load of shyte, the media coverage of what is happening here is absolutely shameful and diabolical.

I went from schoolboy to retired old goat at the rat and grew up believing in the values of Sir Hudson Fysh and Arthur Baird et al.

These KPI driven lunatics have the hide to stand in front of the hard earned safety record built up by previous generations and blatantly snow the public by saying that safety is their only concern.

Never before in the history of Qantas has risk management and acceptable hull loss been an accepted philosophy, NEVER!!!

[neville_nobody]

Protection of the reporter's identity and any individual referred to in the report is a primary element of the scheme

I'd be consulting legal advice before putting one of those in on a explosive issue. They may not have as much legal protection as you might think.

[Pukka]

If CASA had any balls, they would summons BB and question his suitability to hold any accountable position.

As for the good Senator, why doen't he seek to have him charged with contempr of the Senate, there is enough evidence.

Niether of the above will happen.

Sadly we will have a Royal Commision one day and it will find that we have never acted on known defects in our industry. The Politicians will sack the head of CASA, and express horror at not having been informed of the sorry state of the industry.

Any life will go on because this is just a game of buck passing and not being in the firing line when sh!t happens.

[vianostra]

You have to take your hat off to the JQ CEO who proudly claims the “90 years of QF unblemished safety reputation” as his own ( ref. ABC News). It was news to me, I had no idea that there was only one AOC for the parent and the hybrid LCC subsidiary. So it is true then that the QF and JQ SMS, FRMS and Just Culture are literally one and the same? QF being tarred with the same JQ safety brush? “Just culture”, or was JQ confusing it with “JIT” – Just In Time for flight and duty time limitations? So JQ management is not at fault and has no AOC responsibility for cabin crew performance or quality, and we can now blame the parent QF “owned” third party offshore Thai contract labour supplier? Anyway, according to JQ the "tucker chuckers" have no safety role, by definition cannot be fatigued, and can be summarily dismissed at any time. I just can’t wait, the sooner we outsource and offshore all the drivers as well, the better off we will be! At least then if anyone complains, makes a report, refuses to extend etc. etc. they can be threatened with dismissal. No, of course JQ will never force a fatigued crew member to work, but JQ is quite happy to dismiss the crew member if they so refuse. Did someone mention “slave labour” and a safety management system being compatible?

Could CASA assist and “work in a constructive and co-operative manner” with JQ to improve JQ's version of QF Safety Culture? Are these incredible JQ threats of dismissal acts of wilful and deliberate non-compliance by JQ? No one seems to be suggesting that the utilization of third party contractors by JQ was inadvertent. Maybe a CASA SCN is on the way to JQ? Or perhaps the CASA DAS only needs to invite the CASA nominated and approved JQ management: CEO, Head of Flight Ops, Safety etc. etc. in for tea and biccies and “unapprove” them! Perhaps some new restrictions on the JQ AOC if changes are not made? JQ would seemingly benefit from a little CASA enforced ( via provisions of Div 3A of the Civil Aviation Act ) “down” time ala TGW/TT. Has JQ engaged in, is engaging in, or is likely to engage in conduct that constitutes, contributes to or results in a serious and imminent risk to air safety? Are there reasonable grounds in perceiving a serious and imminent risk to air safety and therefore suspending the JQ AOC to protect public safety is justified?

Such a suspension would bring some much needed breathing space at JQ and provide a really wonderful opportunity to give JQ a chance to re-focus on safety and get their house in order.

Safety is no accident. And air safety is certainly far too important to be left to present JQ management.

[Mstr Caution]

Where's Olivia (this is not a safety issue) Worth?

Missing in action.

[blow.n.gasket]

"It's not your hair Livvy, it's your voice"

Still cracks me up:}

[Oldmate]

Bruce, you are a goose. If you did a little bit of homework you would find that Captain Woodward is the Vice President of AIPA, not the Secretary as you stated in your interview.

As far as credibility issues, and allegations of misleading the Senate, well...

[Oldmate]

In fact if I was Captain Woodward (I'm not), I would be seriously considering a defamation lawsuit on the basis of your comments. :=

[600ft-lb]

I did hear Bruce in an interview mention something about if any staff member is fatigued it's their responsibility to report to their manager so they can be relieved of duty.

I'm not too sure what the workplace laws are in Thailand, I'm sure they're not as strong as Australia. But I could just imagine the apprehension of a Thai flight attendant reporting they are too fatigued to work and the subsequent fear they might have of being relieved of their employment.

[emal140]

I am not sure if they have changed the crewing, but last time I was in the top end, the JQ crews would operate HCMC/DRW/SYD with a 3 hour layover in DRW. Disappointing thing was that the HCMC crews did not have a crewroom. The only place they had for the layover in DRW was to try and sleep on the aircraft

E

[Mstr Caution]

Sorry to bring up the past but have a listen to JE from last year.

Skip forward to 3:25

‪Jetstar pilot sacked for raising safety concerns‬‏ - YouTube

Foreign bases of convenience
Fatigue
Safety concerns

& AJ's response:

‪Employment policies are not safety concerns: Joyce‬‏ - YouTube

No wonder they had to silence the guy! :suspect:

[my oleo is extended]

The theory goes that the value of Qantas is in the brand and nothing else. The theory goes that all the components that go to make up the airline are merely "business inputs" that can be provided by "suppliers" who will provide the required product or service for a simple fee.
In this theory, you are not a "pilot" but a "provider of piloting services". Qantas simply pays someone to provide "piloting services" and that is the end of it. The folks who do all this are called "supply chain managers".
The idea behind all this is that risk is systematically removed, or so Qantas management thinks. They don't have to worry about care and feeding of employees, retirement, training, rosters, etc. etc. One simple monthly fee to the supplier takes care of all that.
Funny thing that. Third party suppliers (employees) are considered 'employees' under the Safety Management System,which as we know is now legislated. So hypothetically if an accidnet occurs and some of these third party people are killed, it is the CEO that will land in jail as he is the accountable person. No longer are thrid parties simply held at arms length to provide a cheap service freeing an executive of accountabilty when something goes wrong.

Upperlobe, 10/10 for your post. How true is that ! 90 years of a solid building of an enviable safety reputation slaughtered within a few short years.

As for AJ's comments about employee policies not being a safety concern ? Me thinks somebody should explain SMS, Just Culture and current legislation to him. These are things that an operator is regulated too...

[Shark Patrol]

What a load of shyte, the media coverage of what is happening here is absolutely shameful and diabolical.

I went from schoolboy to retired old goat at the rat and grew up believing in the values of Sir Hudson Fysh and Arthur Baird et al.

These KPI driven lunatics have the hide to stand in front of the hard earned safety record built up by previous generations and blatantly snow the public by saying that safety is their only concern.

Never before in the history of Qantas has risk management and acceptable hull loss been an accepted philosophy, NEVER!!!

Hear, Hear!!

Do you still own any Qantas shares Upperlobe? If so, would love to see you and a bunch of like-minded individuals attend the next Qantas AGM and really stick it up Clifford and Joyce!!!

Would love to attend myself in full uniform and stand up and turn my back to those b*stards as they spoke, but I'm sure that that would be instant dismissal, so I guess I'll just have to keep on with the PAs for now.

[CaptCloudbuster]

Capt Kremin

Geoff Thomas "aviation expert" was mouthing off on local radio yesterday stating the PA's are annoying pax who consider QF Pilots overpaid and have no sympathy for their current industrial push for higher wages...:ugh:

[Eastmoore]

Jetstar warns Thai firm, fights fatigue claims | News.com.au (http://www.news.com.au/travel/news/jetstar-warns-thai-firm-fights-fatigue-claims/story-e6frfq80-1226104041330)

INTERESTING

[Animalclub]

You have to take your hat off to the JQ CEO who proudly claims the “90 years of QF unblemished safety reputation” as his own

I suppose BB doesn't count the deaths of pilots and passengers on QF aircraft as a "blemish"!!!

I'm not having a go at QF... just another of BB's stupid, unthought out, straight from the hip statements.

[Motorola]

A DAY after accusations that Jetstar's outsourced Thai-based crew are employed on ''slave'' labour conditions, Jetstar's parent company, Qantas, will write to the staff-hire company to object to its practices.

But because Qantas owns 37 per cent of the crew-hire company, Tour East Thailand, it is in effect objecting to itself, the national secretary of the Flight Attendants Association, Jo-Ann Davidson, said yesterday.

Jetstar's cabin crew from Thailand were employed on Tour East contracts that effectively set no limit on hours of duty, and offered base wages of just $258 a month, an extra $7 an hour when flying and no sick leave, the ABC's Lateline program revealed.

Read more: Qantas to act on Thai crew hire company (http://www.smh.com.au/travel/travel-news/qantas-to-act-on-thai-crew-hire-company-20110728-1i2db.html#ixzz1TScxVPhv)

[600ft-lb]

JETSTAR has warned a Thai labour hire firm it faces the sack if threats to fatigued cabin crew continue, as they deal with fatigue allegations of their own. The airline has written to Tour East Thailand, of which Qantas owns 37 per cent, requiring it to retract letters to five Bangkok-based flight attendants who pulled out of a Sydney to Melbourne flight complaining of fatigue.

The letters said poor time management was not acceptable and required promises the crew would not repeat their behaviour. It also castigated them for damaging Jetstar's reputation.

Like I said in an earlier post, notifying your manager you are fatigued so you can be relieved for the shift is likely to have an effect of being relieved of your employment.

Disgusting behaviour, I'm very suprised the part owner had no idea this was going on.

The rationale of deny deny deny, impossible, never, not on our watch, safety is our #1 concern - oh wait, we were misled besides we won't control that company, we're minority shareholders, we apologize, we will sack our own part owned company if they do this again. Naughty Naughty!

Brings back memories
Jetstar tells tired pilots “Toughen up Princesses” | Plane Talking (http://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetalking/2011/03/31/jetstar-tells-tired-pilots-toughen-up-princesses/)

Once again, the pants are down around the ankles. There is a consistent theme going on here.

[my oleo is extended]

Hilarious! The pressure is on, no doubt about it. QF pilots being offered gigs at JQ, letters of warning to oneself over fatigue treatment of staff !

The nupty's at the top are running for cover, but it is not good enough. Knee-jerk reactions and smoke and mirror 'fixes' are easier to see through than an empty hour glass. Folks, do not be fooled, once media coverage dies off the gimps in charge will be back out looking for blood.
Stay focused, stay united, stand tall and face these clowns nose to nose. Make your voices heard, make it clear that enough is enough.

The time has come that the tables must be turned. The only blood that needs spilling is within management. I would suggest a donation of money from the troops towards an advertising blitz, votes of no confidence in management, hit them where it hurts - there hip wallets, unite against the disgraceful treatment being unleashed on staff, social media campaigns, youtube campaigns, if a middle eastern country can unite and oust a political dictator in 4 days then why can't we do the same ?

[The The]

The airline has written to Tour East Thailand

What a waste of a stamped envelope. They share the same office, couldn't they just pass a post-it note across the room?

[Steve Cannane]

Hi all, I'm the reporter who did the story for Lateline on Jetstar. If anyone wants to contact me with any information or leads send me an email to [email protected]

[bobhoover]

well done Steve (reporter). Be sure to empty your inbox, as you may not have sufficient room for the incoming mail

[The Green Goblin]

Congratulations Steve.

I also suggest you research some of the affiliations that BB & AJ are connected with.

The whole thing stinks.

There will be a hull loss if the current management keep steering on the course they have chosen.

But I'm sure they have already factored that into their plans and they will be long gone with their millions when it happens.

[lamem]

Great Steve

Call your family. You may be busy for awhile.

[600ft-lb]

You do realise Steve, there will be no Chairman's Club membership forthcoming.

[600ft-lb]

A trail is as follows

As per the description on Holiday Tours & Travel Singapore - Your preferred travel management company - About Us (http://holidaytours.net/AboutUs.html)
Recognising that we share the same core values of customer service and a commitment to excellence in the industry, Qantas Airways, through its wholly-owned subsidiary, Qantas Holidays, acquired a major share in Holiday Tours & Travel in 1984. To further strengthen our range of services, Holiday Tours & Travel acquired Tour East in 1996, a leading regional destination management company that offers a very strong client base in Australia, UK/Europe, Asia and USA.A submission in 2006 stated http://www.aph.gov.au/house/committee/efpa/services/subs/sub037.pdf
Qantas also has a 75 percent stake in Holiday Tours, with offices in
Singapore, Thailand, Hong Kong and BaliThe FY 04/05 report stated http://www.qantas.com.au/infodetail/about/investors/PreliminaryFinalReportFY05.pdf
On 1 July 2004, Qantas (through its 75% owned controlled entity Holiday Tours & Travel
Pte Ltd (Singapore)), incorporated Holidays Tours & Travel (China) Limited to market and
sell holiday packages in China.So yes, in the 2004 report Qantas state they own 75% of HT&T Singapore and 36.75% DIRECTLY of HT&T Thailand
Holidays Tours and Travel (Thailand) Limited 36.75% And a business name record search in Singapore states

HOLIDAY TOURS & TRAVEL (SINGAPORE) PTE. LTD.
f.k.a JETABOUT HOLIDAYS PRIVATE LIMITED
f.k.a Q H TOURS PTE LTDf.k.a is "formally known as". Q H Tours is effectively Qantas Holidays Tours

Registrant:
Tour East Singapore (1996) Pte Ltd
15 Cairnhill Road #07-05 Cairnhill Place
Singapore, SG 229650
SG

Domain Name: TOUREAST.NET

Administrative Contact:
TAN, CHERYL [email protected]
HOLIDAY TOURS & TRAVEL PTE LTD
300 Orchard Road #07-05/06
SINGAPORE, SINGAPORE 238861
SG
+65 2382801 fax: +65 7323497The vague description on the HT&T group website in Singapore is that they own Tour East Group and

Beginning as a ticketing agent in 1972, we have expanded significantly into other areas of the travel business. Today, the Holiday Tours Group has 17 operating entities in 11 countries and over 700 staff.The office locations for both of these Thai companies
Head Office
18-19th Floor, Charn Issara Tower
942/157-159 Rama 4 Road
Bangkok 10500, Thailand
T: (66) 2 267 1400 F: (66) 2 267 1330
E: [email protected]
After-Office Hours Helpline: (66) 81 819 3641

Managing Director - Mr Prasert Isvarphornchai
General Manager - Ms Massy MittakarinThey reside at the same building address to T.E.T. but on a different level.
Holiday Tours & Travel (Thailand) Ltd. 21st. Floor. Charn Issara Tower 1 942/160-163 Rama 4 Road Bangkok 10500
Tel. (66) 02 236 2800 / (66) 02 234 0031-4
Fax.(66) 02 237 6156 / (66) 02 236 0038
email. [email protected] Holiday Tour & Travel (Thailand) website Holidaytour (http://www.holidaytours.co.th/)
redirects itself to Jetabout (http://www.jetabout-thailand.com/) which in their 'about us' section states
STRATEGIC PARTNERSHIPS Recognising that we share the same core values of customer service and a commitment to excellence in the industry, Qantas Airways, through its wholly-owned subsidiary, Qantas Holidays, acquired a major share in Holiday Tours & Travel in 1984. To further strengthen our range of services, Holiday Tours & Travel acquired Tour East in 1996, a leading regional destination management company that offers a very strong client base in Australia, UK/Europe, Asia and USA.
Who owns holidaytours.co.th ?

Domain :
HOLIDAYTOURS.CO.TH

ACE :
HOLIDAYTOURS.CO.TH

Registrar :
T.H.NIC Co., Ltd.

Name Server :
CONDUCTOR.ASIANET.CO.TH
CLARINET.ASIANET.CO.TH

Status :
ACTIVE

Created Date :
4 Dec 2002

Exp Date :
3 Dec 2011

Domain Type :
Business

Domain Holder :
Holiday Tours & Travel ( Thailand ) Ltd. ( บริษัท ฮอลิเดย์ทัวร์ แอนด์ ทราเวิล (ประเทศไทย) จำกัด )
21st Floor,Charn Issara1 Tower,942/160-163 Rama IV Rd., Bangkok
10500
TH
Phone: +66-2-2671400 Ext. 1901
Fax: +66-2-2360038
Domain Contact: ฝ่ายบัญชี
Contact Email: [email protected]







Tech Contact :
Kamol Sanguanmoo (75433)
Toureast (T.E.T.) Ltd.
18-19 th floor, Chan Issara Tower1, 942/157 -159 Rama 4 Rd., bangkok
10500
TH
Phone: +66-2-2671400 Ext. 1901
Fax: +66-2-2360038
Email: [email protected] Tour East (Thailand) a subsidiary of Tour East Group (Singapore) which is owned by Holiday Tour & Travel (Singapore) which is 75% owned by Qantas ?

Or is Tour East (Thailand) owned by Holiday Tour & Travel (Thailand) ?

Which entity owns the remaining 63.25% of HT&T (Thailand) if Qantas owns 36.75% directly ?

[600ft-lb]

I wonder why Qantas directly owns a minority stake - all with the same percentage of ownership in the countries it is currently expanding into with its Jetstar franchise.

As per the Annual Report last year, page 68;
HT & T Travel Philippines, Inc. 28%
Holiday Tours and Travel (Thailand) Ltd 37%
Holiday Tours & Travel Vietnam Co. Ltd 37%
PT Holidays Tours & Travel Tours Indonesia 37%
Tour East (T.E.T) Ltd Tours and travel Thailand 37%

in the 2007 annual report

Travel management company HTT, which is 75 per cent owned by
the Qantas Group, represents the Qantas Group in many parts of
Asia. Its destination management arm, Tour East, offers a full range
of ground handling services including accommodation, sightseeing
tours, regional tours and the meetings, incentives, conferences
and events market. As well as focusing on its established United
Kingdom market, Tour East is increasing its penetration in
new markets such as China, India and Europe. The HTT Group
handled more than 900,000 customers in 2006/07.

A travel management company has turned into an employer of flight attendants for Jetstar ?

[breakfastburrito]

Excellent detective work 600ft-lb.


Time to start downloading & combing the annual reports:
I've backed up all copies currently avaliable on the qf website for "safe keeping" :) QF Annual Reports (http://www.mediafire.com/?4t1sod168w0tk)

This is the sort of leg work that may end up saving your job. All the information is there, its just a case of connecting the dots. The Jetconnect FWA & this case shows they have been sloppy hiding their tracks, I'm sure there are more skeletons buried, "hiding in plain sight".

[Eastmoore]

Thats a lead if I ever saw one.

It looks like QF owns a bit more than 37% of Tour East.

[ferris]

There's your story Steve- this is more than industrial chicanery. It would have to be bordering on outright fraud. What is the corporate version of "Obtain financial advantage by deception", or "attempting to defraud the commonwealth"? I'm sure the ATO would be interested. It's the same sort of ethical mindset that becomes involved in illegal freight cartels etc.

[Taildragger67]

Steve,

Going back to what Poto wrote on page 1 of this thread:

So the Thai cabin receive $258/month plus$7hr per flight hour. And BB tells the ABC that they earn up to $30k per annum without busting the, load of crap, FRMS that the QF group have been forced to embrace.

That means they fly 74hrs a week with no annual leave

Poto's calculations are correct.

That means that, assuming they are given 2 days per week off, they are working 15 hours a day, every day. That is the equivalent of Sydney to Los Angeles (or back), every working day.

If you throw them 4 weeks off a year, then the calcs show that they are working 80 hours per week over the 48 working weeks. That is 16 hours every working day.

That is when errors occur.

[600ft-lb]

Another amazing piece of the puzzle just fit in to place.

Dennis Choo aka Mr Choo Teck Wong owner of Westbrook Investments Pte Ltd

Tour East - Contact Us (http://www.toureast.net/contactus/index.html)

Group Managing Director - Mr Dennis Choo
Executive Director - Mr Duncan Choo
Group General Manager, IT/Strategy - Mr Francis See
Group Vice-President, Sales & Marketing - Ms Judy Lumand AMAZINGLY

Jetstar Asia better off without Temasek - Asian Skies (http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/asian-skies/2009/04/jetstar-asia-better-off-withou.html)

This change involves the Singapore Government's investment arm Temasek Holdings selling its 33.5% stake in Singapore-based Jetstar Asia and the smaller shareholders are also selling out.
It also means Qantas Airways is increasing its stake in Jetstar Asia to 49% from 45% and Singaporean businessman Dennis Choo is stepping in and buying a 51% stake.
CNA had already interviewed Jetstar's CEO, Bruce Buchanan, yesterday and he would have obviously highlighted the positive aspects of the change.
So the CNA reporter asked me in the afternoon what could be the possible negative consequences of no longer having Temasek as a shareholder.
Quite frankly, I don't see a downside. Not having Temasek involved in Jetstar Asia, in my opinion, makes the decision-making process at Jetstar Asia a lot simpler and means the business can be run more efficiently.

Buchanan told me that Choo has been doing business with Qantas for about 20 years and is already Qantas and Jetstar's general sales agent in many Asian countries such as Singapore, Thailand, Indonesia, China and India.

What role does Mr Choo have in Tour East Thailand ?

[600ft-lb]

A bit more googling, this is a bit sad but its also fun
Qantas, Choo to take over Orangestar (http://www.singaporeairfreight.com/Singlenews.aspx?DirID=88&rec_code=357772)

Mr Choo will be Newstar's chairman.
Not much is known about Mr Choo, except that he has had a 30-year relationship with Qantas, controlling its ticketing distribution operations around the region. Qantas is a significant shareholder of his Singapore-based travel companies Holiday Tours & Travel and Tour East. He also sits on the board of Diethelm Keller Group, which owns STA Travel. And his companies recruit Jetstar's cabin crew in Thailand and Singapore.
smoking gun ?

[SOPS]

What an amasing house of cards this is turning out to be!!! Will it all come crashing down, I wonder.:confused:

[What The]

Keep digging. You may find where he got the money to take a 51% controlling stake in JQ Asia.

[600ft-lb]

Well, according to Plane talking | The Australian (http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/features/plane-talking/story-e6frgabx-1225890773242) this story

Under the new deal, there are only two shareholders - Jetstar with 49 per cent of the business, and a Singaporean travel wholesaler, Dennis Choo, who was given financial assistance organised by Qantas.It is suggested in that article that Qantas gave him, or organised it at arms length.... the money to 'buy' 51% of Jetstar Asia.

But another interesting connection

Mr Choo is on the board of Diethelm Keller Group, which owns STA Travel.

STA Travel, its Indonesian branch

STA Travel - Indonesia (http://branches.statravelgroup.com/branch.php?id=493)

CONTACT DETAILS

PT Tour East Indonesia
Jalan Palau Komodo no. 20
Bali
80114
Indonesia
Tel: 62 361 237 782
Fax: 62 361 231 154
Email: [email protected],id
And if we can remember from before

Qantas owns
PT Holidays Tours & Travel Tours Indonesia 37%So the assumption is that STA owns the rest.

And Dennis Choo, the financial benefactor of Qantas's foray into Jetstar Asia, who is on the board of Diethelm Keller Group, which in turn owns STA.

And another
</title> <style type="text/css"> </style> <link href="include/style.css" rel="stylesheet" type="text/css"> <script src="../Scripts/AC_RunActiveContent.js" type="text/javascript"></script> <style type="text/css"> </style> </head> <body> <table width=" (http://www.statravel.com.my/Contact_us.php) <-www.statravel.com.my (for some reason this forum doesn't like the link)

TOUR EAST (2009) SDN BHD
(formerly known as STA Travel).

Which is, as per the 2010 annual report

Tour East (2009) Sdn Bhd Malaysia 75% owned by Qantas.

[Sunfish]

So basically what this means is:

1) The Qantas arrangement to employ Asian crew from an arms length third party supplier is a sham, in that it isn't an "arms length" transaction?

2) Qantas may be 100% exposed to Jetstar Asia, which should galvanise the shareholders mightily if it is correct.

If Qantas "arranged" for Mr Choo to find the finance for his purchase of Temasek's shares in Jetstar Asia, then you can bet your bottom dollar that Qantas is Guarantor, or has provided some other form of security for Choo's lenders. Could somebody ask this as a question at the Qantas AGM?

If this is true, it would be consistent with my assertion that there is no way in hell that Jetstar Asia is a winning strategy and Asian investors know it.