FAA 2 JAR

[sandersos]

Is this a mistake so early on? I've just got FAA comm/multi/instr. and a bout 400 hrs tt. I'd like to go work in the EU but not quite sure of the procedure to do so legally. Does anyone know of this procedure? How much of it can be done in the US and if so where? I was told that I'd have to undergo the IR training again...is this true? What is the regional hiring like for guys with low time? And how much (approx.) do you think I'd end up spending to accomplish the aforementioned? Any and all responses and advice are appreciated.

Cheers.

[Matthewjharvey]

The conversion to JAA requires the following:

Groundschool followed by 14 exams - Takes about 6 months, and costs between £3000 and £5000 including exam sittings.

CPL flying course to meet proficiency requirement - around 15-20 hours = £3000

Instrument Rating course of 50 hours = £12000 approx.

Hence total cost £20000 ish and I would allow 9-12 months for the whole thing.

If you are thinking of doing it I assume you have some sort of right to live and work in the EU. My advice would be to build hours in the states before you even consider this route as there is no way you will be getting a job here with your inexperience.

Hope this helps.

[englishal]

What a rip off. A US qualified pilot, is at least as good as a JAR qualified one, and as for forking out another 12 grand for an IR when the guy already holds an ICAO states IR....what toss. Thats JAR for you, if I were you MPeople I'd stay with the FAA and stick two fingers up at the JAR!

[Matthewjharvey]

englishal, I couldn't agree more with your analysis of the JAR system, I do think that the hour building available in the states is more effective than in the UK, as an instructor I was regularly flying 8 hours a day (good weather all year) and also I got over 500 hours multi. I don't know how I would have built time like that in this country.

[Julian]

With costs like these it really no great mystery as to why schools are gong out of business - no one can afford to take the course in the first place!

Julian.

[sandersos]

So I take it then that everybody lives in the US? If not where did you each get your training? My problem is that I don't particularly want to live the rest of my life in the US...nothing to do with Sept. 11th or anything like that. I've also found a place in Florida that will administer the 14 exams for $1000.....but they are charging out of the arse for a warrior and Seneca. In addition, the IR and commercial training coombined must only be completed to JAR proficiency....ie. if you an IR pilot (FAA for instance), then there is no need ot undergo the entire 50 hrs of instrument training. There is a banner ad that apears at the top of this screen every do often...and this is where I got this most up to date info. These new requirements are as of 1 Nov 2001....

[Matthewjharvey]

M People, where did you get the info about the IR to JAR standards only. If this is true then it is great news, but I am not aware of it. The last I heard also was that you certainly can not do the IR training in the US it has to be taken in an EU country.
Cheers.

[sandersos]

http://www.intlflight.com/

I called them and spoke with a very nice lady named Antonia; she was reading verbatim the new implementations a/o 1 NOV which include the IR training to JAR standards, not the entire curricululm if you hold an ICAO IR rating.

[Julian]

M People, I am in the UK but took my JAR PPL in California and came back with two licences (CAA & FAA PPL) ;)

They will administer all exmas/flight tests, etc over at he school but due to the fact I only had 4 wks to complete in I made sure I had all the writtens done before I got there. Cost for 62.5 hours flying, test, hotel, food, beer, etc, roughly £4500

Just come back from there again having done the FAA IR but it gives you the IMC on your return to the UK (obviously you have to pay the £64 or whatever it is now to have it added). So again-two for one! Cost for evrything again roughly £4000.

Julian.

[rolling circle]

M People - It seems as though the lovely Antonia may have got her frilly knickers in a twist!

I downloaded, this morning, the following quote from the UK CAA Policy Statement dated 1 November 2001:

IR(A) or (H)
An ICAO licence holder who does not meet the JAR-FCL ATPL experience requirements shall undergo a full approved training course for issue of the instrument rating as required by JAR-FCL Subpart E, irrespective of whether the ICAO licence held included an IR granted by the state of licence issue. This policy is being reviewed in discussions with the JAA and representatives of UK training organisations - it is possible that the course duration will be reduced for pilots with significant instrument flying experience.
Any change will be announced on this web site.

Note the requirement for 'significant instrument flying experience' - it seems that even when (if) the rules are changed, simply getting a FAA IR will not be sufficient, you will need to show evidence of 'significant' instrument flying (not just IFR) experience.

[ 22 November 2001: Message edited by: rolling circle ]

[sandersos]

OK, my ultimate aimis this: I'd like to return to Blighty to live once again. I'm a little tired of being out here and am trying to figure out the best way to ply my chosen trade on UK/EU soil....thats whats bringing all this about. We all know what the problems are in terms of flying out in the UK unless, of course, you're load*d. I've been thinking about possibly doing contract work out there with FAA issued certificates, but this would only permit me to fly N-registered planes.....I haven't got an instructors certificate over here yet as I wasn't sure of the next step or if it was indeed something I really wanted to do. So then, what is the next step? Has anyone built time in any way other than instructing? What are your long term aspirations?

It sounds to me as if what Julian quoted form the website souonds just about right. But at the time I spoke with her, she did say that they had received that information the same morning (coincidence?). It is a Government holiday over here today so everything has been winding down more or less since Monday evening (when I spoke with her)and I'm assuming they haven't updated their website yet. On a slight tangent, does anyone know if there is a website that would manifest samples of the course material (questions etc.) for the 14 exams?

M People.

[xbxex]

Hi folks,
This policy update is an interesting development. Looks like we might not have to pay for another IR course just because they say so.
http://www.srg.caa.co.uk/documents/srg_fcl_policyupdate.pdf

M People: I recomend presenting your case directly to the CAA. Beware of individual school's interpretations of JAA policy. Case in point: According to the above cited policy, page. 15 or so (the part Rolling Circle transcribed), if you DO NOT meet the experience requirements for JAR-FCL ATPL, you have to undergo a full IR course. In my case I DO meet the experience requirements and still, the FTO in the UK that I was talking to insisted that I must do the full IR course. I desided to wait, and here it is.
Maybe my 350 hrs. actual instrument time will get me a reduction in the overall cost of converting ICAO 2 JAA.
In any case, good luck!

[sandersos]

Light-wing; where/what did/do you fly? How have you come about your experience? Seems no one wants to answer these type questions....maybe I'm missing something..

[Matthewjharvey]

Light wing/m people. I have found an exemption to the requirement for an approved IR course in the CAA documents.
GID 15, version 4 (requirements for the addition of license ratings to a pilot's license) in appendix 3. This states that if you have at least 700 hours total time including at least 40 hours instrument time then there is no need to complete an approved course. I am in the process of confirming this with the CAA.

[Schorsch]

M People,
I did finished last year my JAR LIC. based on a foreign LIC.
It was in Germany but it’s the same all over Europe and you can take the Exams in English if you wish. I had to take lesson only for MET and Air Law, but no exemption on the Exams (all 14) – CPL / IFR Checkride, no training needed – MCC course and Check, strange things by that time I already had 2500h Jet Time (737 & 727).
The way I did it was to contact the German LBA www.lba.de (http://www.lba.de) and ask for some exemption based on my experience, you should do the same with the CAA. It’s always easier than peoples think´s, it just take a while ( for me was ten month to get everything done ).
LUCK

[sandersos]

Ok guys, this is all making a great deal more sense now than it did this time last week! I'm hearing so many different things and trying to research as much as possible. Greaser, once you get confirmation of your beliefs from the CAA, could you perhaps post a link to the page where the criteria and parameters to forgoing the IR training (and its ludicrous cost) might be found? -200, I doubt I'd be offered any exemption based on my current experience; at the moment I'm looking for ways other than instructing to build time.....have licence, will travel. Although I fear I'll soon be undergoing a CFI course if this keeps up....

[rolling circle]

The exemption referred to by The Greaser applies only to holders of UK national licences. If the IR is to be applied to a JAA licence, there is currently no exemption from the full approved course except in the case of an ICAO ATPL holder with in excess of 500 hours multi-crew time.

[Davidils20l]

I am looking into diffrent possabilities to obtain my JaaAtpl (Frozen). I have +800 hours instruction given, over 500 hours instrument and just under two hundred multi. A bit but not a great deal, but enough to say I could safly fly at least a light single. But yet the UK CAA insist on me doing 50 HOurs to obtain my JAA IR

When I spoke to the Spanish CAA they informed me that Having more than 500 Commercial Hours, entitled me to only have to complete half the required time, in order to obtain the same JAA Licence.

Go Figure.
I suggest look around all states, at what they require. As mentioned earlier most these schools do offer cources in english.

We are been shafted enough already. Find the best you can and good luck

[xbxex]

M People,
For the past 3 years I've been flying in Aeromexico's Regional Airline here in Monterrey, Mexico. I've flown the Saab 340B and the SA 227 Metro. I was lucky to get this job fresh out of school with no experience, but that was 3 years ago. Any way you're in the U.S. right? There's always a way to build time over there. Some Regionals there I know were hiring low-time pilots like "Chappaqua" (I think that's the right spelling) and "Mesaba". Of course that was before the current crisis. I've heard of people who built time flying for some government agency checking oil pipelines and that kind of thing. A small Regional is a great place to build hours quickly.
Rolling Circle,
The new policy update gives the basis for further training exemptions. It's only fair, and logical. Anyway I'm traveling to Ireland next week for a quick holiday to see some relatives and I'll ring the CAA. Hopefully they'll be more helpful over the phone than by e-mail. I'll let you guys know what they told me.
Good Luck!

[xbxex]

P.S.
-200:
Can you name of the school in Germany where you converted?

Greaser:
What does GID stand for? I'd still be interested to find out what the CAA said about that.

cheers.

[sandersos]

Light-wing;
With recent events, people have been laid off/furloughed left right and centre. My ex room mate is currently at Chataqua and has said that their hiring mins aren't much different from the industry standard 1200/200. Whatsmore, he completed upgrade training the week of 9/11 and then was downgraded on the heels of it. He is fortunate to be in employment at this time as 132 of his colleagues got the heave ho. Mesaba and the rest are about the same unfortuneately. I've had close friends laid off from there, too!

But at this point for me its a case of have license, will travel. There isn't much I won't do or a place I wouldn't consider going. If I can get get my hands on the funds and find a decent instructor who just doesn't 'want to build time', I'll go the instructor route.....

Yeah, be sure you "Do the Right Thing" whilst talking to the CAA on your travels and 'represent!'......we wait for your report..

cheers..

[Squawk7777]

If you ever come across the name "Antonia" or "Stephen F." (the flight school you named above)...

Stay Away!

Enough Said

[sandersos]

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