Crash near Bude, Cornwall: 24th July 2011

[nigelh]

I have no way of knowing but i think that most cases of flying into cloud will be done at or around say 80-100 knots , or at a relatively high speed . The training i would like to see is the fact that you could ( IF YOU WANTED TO ...) fly right up to a fog bank or low cloud and safely get within say 50 m of it .....but that would be at hover taxi speed . I am guessing ,but at say 35-40kn you could do a 180 within 100 m . The point i am making is that speed is actually more important than altitude . Speed stops you having the ability to lose hight rapidly , turn 180 rapidly ....the 2 things that you REALLY need to do rapidly . You even have the option of stopping while still going in the direction you are looking ( quick stop ) ....this could be the best action if you have gone into a suckers hole ....but lets not go there ...

Hughes ..just seen your post and couldnt agree more . I am not advocating flying in the sort of weather you mentioned . I would bin the flight even if it were a lot better than that because i do not tempt fate . I was very lucky that my early flying was in a professional company with a CP . What we really need is a professional pilot allocated to every new ppl , and he answers all those questions you never asked during the course .....he checks the weather on a day you are thinking of flying and CAN stop you . I think great idea but no idea who would be willing to do it or who would pay ....
as i think you sort of pointed out ...you can teach a monkey to fly a helicopter beautifully .....its never the skill that lets you down ....its the attitude that gets you killed . I really believe that .

[SilsoeSid]

Hughesey, you're absolutely correct.

Much like driving tests, public awareness programmes, speed awareness courses, etc, you can tell people all the relevant information you like, but some will still drive without a seatbelt, with children on peoples laps, while texting, be 'hands-on' the phone, doing make up, undertaking, racing etc etc. things they know they shouldn't do, but still do.

How many incidents talked about on the rotorhead forums have been weather related for example? Much to your dissapointment, IMHO a greater awareness of CRM may well reduce these incidents.

Met is a subject that is part of the syllabus, so the problem isn't not knowing what the weather is doing or more importantly going to do, the problem is recognising that there is a point at which you should just not launch despite it being 8/8 blue at the departure point!

However, despite Met being taught on the course, some will still launch because the weather is nice where they are and they are prepared to take a chance on how things pan out later on in the flight. (Much like this threads incident!) How difficult is it to say to a friend/pax/business that you cant complete the flight, when the departure point and arrival points are in clear weather, yet in between it's cack?

Perhaps attending a CRM course will give the confidence to actually say 'No' when it is needed. You may well get it wrong a couple of times in your flying 'career', but better to get it wrong a few times and end up driving when you could have flown, than to get it wrong just that once, when you flew when you should have driven.

You will not prevent some from pushing on despite them seeing the slices lining up, but even in those cases they know what they are doing and just hope that the last slice doesn't complete the line-up....only in the very last 10 seconds do they realise their mistake.

Unfortunately, it's the ones that don't even know about the slices in the first place that ultimately end up in a report.


If you were Fred Cross chief helicopter examiner with a free hand with EASA what would you change ?

Having attended a 'Speed Awareness Course', I would like to see a 10 yearly attendance for all drivers. This would coincide with renewing your license. However we all know that won't go down too well, not just because of a cost, but everyone is such a good driver!

To do a similar thing in the private flying world, with a SP CRM course every 5/10 yrs for example, will see us ending up with the most active thread PPRuNe has ever seen!

[Hughes500]

Silsoe

Like your idea, i would actually take it further, not call it crm to the private pilot but call it " captaincy". As crm to the average pilot means multi crew in the professional world! I would link it, like an opc to the yearly lpc, difficult I know, when quite often you are checking people you have never flown with before and with no idea of their history ( although this can be a good thing).

Brings me on nicely to the 5 hours of instrument appreciation which is about to be dropped by EASA to the hours required to compete a 180 degree turn under the hood +/- 150 ft. Up to now I have worried about instrument appreciation. I have tended to spend a couple of hours flying in bad weather, thick haze on sunny days etc etc to show ppl's how easy it can be to loose it and what to do, at what point it is better to turn back or land.
However for some this is a licence to get press onitis because I have " been taught " what to do:=
Perhaps the answer is a sim where these things can be truly tested, but that would put an end to private flying from a cost point of view. oh to be in an ideal world !!
SS safe flying to you:ok:

[hihover]

Shy Torque, fantastic quotation:


Perhaps tens of thousands of years ago, some of their ancestors would have been caught and eaten by what other men were catching and eating.


Love it.

That should be plaquarded on every helicopter, in full view of the pilot and passengers. Not only for PPLs, but for professional pilots too.

We all seem to have homed in on the 1500m vis limit. I have about 11,500 hours, of which, 10,000+ have been flown VFR in the Weedesphere. If I find myself in visibility of 1500m, I seriously have to ask myself why I am there, what am I going to achieve, and how can I justify this if it goes wrong? 1500m is not a guide to what is acceptable, it's the absolute legal minimum in some countries.

With technology as it is today, I'd like to see some sort of on-board, low-cost sensor that gives a fairly accurate visibility reading. It could even be linked in to your GPS/moving map. Something like this could be pre-set with warnings for those that need them. At 1500m the plaquard above should flash. Mind you, the cowboys would ignore that too, and who is going to pay for the development of something that is relevant to such a minority, who will most likely ignore it anyway....this is why I'm not an inventor.

Seriously, don't we just need to be taking responsibility for the situations we put ourselves into, and instilling that in other pilots too, instead of looking for excuses or for a training programme to blame. Certainly in the British Military, the occasional hanging helped with the responsibility issue.

TM

[John Eacott]

The buzzword in the Australian system is TEM: Threat and Error Management. Students are taught to recognise the Threat (poor weather) and Manage the outcome, thus avoiding going into IIMC and not needing the false security of thinking they know how to get out of IMC when they shouldn't be in it in the first place.

CASA Day VFR Syllabus (Helicopters). (www.casa.gov.au/fcl/download/vfrhs02.pdf)

GAPAN Australia produced a TEM Training Package for instructors, which is available from GAPAN Australia (http://www.gapan.org.au) or CASA, who cover it in CAAP 5.59-1(0) (www.casa.gov.au/download/CAAPs/ops/5_59_1.pdf).

[Epiphany]

Reading the embarrassing guff written by our Captaincy-challenged contributors (do you really have licences?) I can understand why VFR helicopters continue have weather related accidents. It is not flying into cloud that will kill you (if you know how to get out of it) - it is the impact with the hillside that will do it. Standby for the next one.....

[nigelh]

Not a very useful post . If you have issues with certain posters name them and use your considerable expertise to help them in the right direction ......there is nothing clever in saying " until the next one " :ugh:

[Epiphany]

Other professional aviators with considerable experience and knowledge appear to have tried with negative results and I have no intention of banging my head against the same wall.

If the cap fits....;)

[toptobottom]

It is not flying into cloud that will kill you...

Shame on you :=

[Epiphany]

Shame on me??? I fly in cloud every day and I'm still alive and kicking. You see I am trained and qualified to do it.

If you are a PPL with no IR and just fly for fun then don't fly in IMC. It is not rocket science. If you do not know what IMC is then you should not hold a licence - even a PPL.

[toptobottom]

Epiphany - either you're just trying to wind us all up, inflate your massive ego a few more psi, or maybe you have completely missed the point? Hopefully, it's the latter. I estimate 99.99% of PPL(H)s have no IR yet too many believe they are qualified to fly in IMC (at least until they've executed the 180 they spent 5 hours learning all about it during their course). The key point discussed in this thread is around what can be done to help ANY pilot, not just PPLs in unstabilised aircraft, going IIMC before they find out that those 5 hours (or far more) are actually worth f*** all.

I'm struggling to understand your extraordinary arrogance and pointless contribution :confused:

[Epiphany]

The key point discussed in this thread is around what can be done to help ANY pilot, not just PPLs in unstabilised aircraft, going IIMC before they find out that those 5 hours (or far more) are actually worth f*** all.


Thank you for your kind words TTB. Why is the following simple fact so difficult for you lot to understand?

If you plan to going flying and have no idea how to check the weather conditions for some reason - just look out of the window. If the visibility is bad - DON'T GO.

If the visibility is good and you go flying but find it getting worse then TURN AROUND OR LAND.

I realise that the Nanny State mentality has done irreparable harm to many but at some point in life you have to think for yourself, use common sense and take responsibility for your actions/decisions.

Bloody Hell - I am banging my head and I said that I wouldn't.

[nigelh]

I have seen this before ....with some old Vietnam pilots i worked with . After a certain number of years the old ones just go into a grumpy state where they dont want to help anyone .....just blow their own trumpet ( while it still works ....)
Epiphany , you are a grumpy old sod and should try to be more helpful ....given your age you should know better :=

[toptobottom]

Sadly, my hope was ill-founded; you're just arrogant. I think we've just gone back 20 places. Do you know what IIMC is?! I'll give you a clue for the first letter: 'Inadvertent'. Good grief, I can't believe I'm even having this exchange...

[Epiphany]

OK - I give in - like the others I suspect.

Do you know what IIMC is?

Yes I do. It is the situation that could be easily avoided by PPL's by not flying in non-VMC conditions.

I'm not that old by the way. I just started flying at 19 years of age some 30 years ago and in between have logged 10,000+ helicopter hours flying Military, Police, HEMS, SAR, Instructor, Firefighting, Longline, Logging, VIP, Charter and Offshore in 18 different helicopter types from the R22 to the S61N on every continent. I am currently flying Offshore in the EC225 and expect to do so for at least another 10 years.

That qualifies me to comment here and if, now and again, I point out what I consider to be the obvious to those who decide otherwise then I will. If you interpret that as arrogance then so be it. Goodnight ;)

[nigelh]

if the cap fits I think you said .....thank you for your useful input , even if it was really just a giant pat on the back for yourself :D

[Epiphany]

I don't need a pat on the back. I am not a wannabe.

Now as entertaining as this is ladies I really must get some sleep. Miss you already XXX

[toptobottom]

Goodnight Epiphany; hope your pillow is as plump as your ego :ok:

[powerlimited]

All interesting stuff......in between the falling out!

I think we can continue to go over old ground, but it is quite evident that despite what people are taught they will always be those who have a less than acceptable approach to conducting a flight.

In all fairness to most schools/instructors I get the impression that the general feeling is the 5 hrs IF is a waste of time as it stands, however this doesn't mean that you simply have to go off on sunny days with the foggles on to go through the motions. Its suprising how well bloggs does when flying over fields etc with the foggles on, but then if you take them over a reservoir, wide river etc (within Auto distance to land before any comedians jumps in!) this can through them off kilter, a perfect chance to point out this foggles milarky isn't all its cracked up to be. Not to mention the fact they will sh*t themselves/tense up on the controls if they go IIMRC.

In addition time can be used from the syllabus to go off in marginal weather as part of EX 22b, highlighting the associated problems.

However despite all this I think people will continue to go off into weather they are not capable of handling, especially if they have a machine in their back garden and can go unchecked from a school etc.

I would like to see a mandatory refresher session for PPLs (or CPL etc who aren't flying for an AOC) covering topics they might find interesting/useful which should include a review of accidents. It might just drum home the facts. This could be run at selected FTOs around the country and form part of a renewal system.

Also, despite Fred's best efforts to tone down the LPC why not have a mated brief in there, I think it would be suprising how many pilots can't get relevant Met/Notams.

I don't see any significant changes coming from EASA, but this doesn't mean that as professional individuals responsible for training people to safe standard to CAPTAIN a helicopter we should not make a concerted effort to address these issues we all know exist.

[Thomas coupling]

Epiphany is simply advertising the truth. It may sound harsh and direct, but he is quite right. The problem I have is trying to sympathise with your arguments and then coming across statements like:

"Perhaps we could be taught to get really close to clouds before turning away"
"We CAN fly safely in very low cloud (250-300 feet)".
"We can reduce speed just before going into cloud, to 30-40kts ready to do a 180"
"We could do a sharp 180".
"We can fly low and slow under the cloud".

To ALL those of you out there with NO EXPERIENCE of flying in cloud, PLEASE READ nial dementia's post again and again.
Until you ACTUALLY fly in cloud, you really don't and can't have any idea what it is the more experienced guys on here are trying to tell you. It has to be tested and tasted to be explained clearly.
It is NOT something you mess with - unless you are fully trained and remain trained by practicing IMC virtually on a daily basis as it is a very perishable skill :\

Clouds don't behave in a logical pattern. They have a habit of forming behind you occasionally just as you exercise that 180 degree turn.

Loss of visual references leading to unusual attitudes are impossible to recover from unless you are TRAINED to do so. It is NOT something your CFI can demonstrate to a newbie anywhere and at anytime. It has to be ramped up slowly during IF training and demonstrated under very controlled circumstances (mainly thousands of feet up and in OUTCAS).

Epiphany was simply expressing his frustration at coming back to this long winded blo**y thread and finding the same old same old going on and on and on.

Give it a rest guys - DON'T tempt providence - STAY WELL CLEAR OF CLOUD (LEGALLY). Unless fully trained and current. FFS. :mad:

[nigelh]

TC. I hear and basically agree with all you say . I think sometimes the printed word does not come across as it is meant . I think we have to accept there are two ways of looking at this . 1). Just say stay away from cloud or 2) actually demonstrate what it would feel like if you went into that cloud .
Admittedly with far fewer hours (but 30 yrs of experience ) I am firmly of the belief that you need to make people experience the thing you keep talking about . If they don't believe you before ...they will after . The only useful instrument exercise in my view would be actual and forget foggles . And yes I have done a few hours actual in ME and SE and no I would not do it by myself even now as I would die ...

[toptobottom]

TC
We've crossed swords in the past but I completely agree with your disdain at the comments you quote. These are authored by the very same folk who, one day, will find themselves in a similar situation to those who have perished at the receiving end of over-confidence/arrogance/over-inflated sense of own ability.

There are two issues: first, fixing the above. Second, helping pilots who already acknowledge they are not qualified to fly in cloud from getting into the above situation inadvertently. That's the bit Epiphany missed.

[AnFI]

ttb Do you know what IIMC is?! I'll give you a clue for the first letter: 'Inadvertent'. It's should stand for 'Inevitable'

because (i agree with you)Second, helping pilots who already acknowledge they are not qualified to fly in cloud from getting into the above situation inadvertently. That's the bit Epiphany missed. they do need that help and they don't get it - we must move this conversation on and agree what that help is.... How to stay visual.
Epiphany seems to have little (relative) experience at staying Visual - just goes IMC without penalty, doesn't think much about it - bet he breaks cloud regularly below 1000ft above the highest obje.... whilst not on an appropriate approach etc. NOT appropriate minset for a VMC PPL(H) who MUST stay Visual

TC - I am all ways intrigued by your '17yr old driver' parallel. So you think people will have to have luck and wit to survive the period of acquisition of skills and judgment? That'll allways be true to to some extent, but how do we stop kids driving too fast in Fog (faster that a braking distance), don't we try and teach that you must keep a stopping distance clearly in sight? Or do we let them establish it through commonsense and trial and error ? I think we can teach this and save people.

I do think it has more to do with inability to judge how to stay visual rather than not having the discipline to call it a day when the weather is hampering progress. And I think it has (almost) nothing to do with pilots not knowing the consequences of IMC flight are often fatal, (nor is it failure to apply a published weather criterion - which is just positively dangerous - just choosing to fly on days with 10k vis forcasts will not keep you away from IIMC)

[Epiphany]

You PPL's fly helicopters for fun right? A very expensive hobby and I personally can think of much better ways of spending money but there you go...

Do you get a thrill scrabbling around at 200' agl over misty, wooded hillsides crapping yourself and wondering if there is a big nasty set of wires up ahead. No? Then why the hell would you risk getting into that situation in the first place?

TTB - if you concentrated on the important issue of not becoming airborne in marginal weather conditions in the first place then you will not have to concern yourself with wondering how to get out of IIMC. Without at least an IR and LOTS of practice you will kill yourself very quickly.

[QUOTE]Epiphany seems to have little (relative) experience at staying Visual - just goes IMC without penalty,


I have 3,000 hours flying single-engine VFR helicopters, mostly trying to stay in VMC. I flew unstabilised Army Gazelle helicopters in IMC but I had a military Green Instrument rating, LOTS of practice and was ably assisted by RAF ATC. Yet I still scared myself on a number of occassions.

If you really want to learn then listen to the very experienced contrributors to this forum (and I am not including myself there) as they all seem to be telling you the same thing.

[AnFI]

Epiphany !
You also obviously have a high opinion of your own experience on this subject - what do you propose trading insults?

You PPL's fly helicopters for fun right? A very expensive hobby and I personally can think of much better ways of spending money but there you go... Demeaning the PPL eh - you're a professional right ? You ruined the most fun thing you can do by making it your job and now you'd rather go bowling?:confused:


Do you get a thrill scrabbling around at 200' agl over misty, wooded hillsides crapping yourself and wondering if there is a big nasty set of wires up ahead. No? Then why the hell would you risk getting into that situation in the first place? Pilots who can safely do that are generally not the problem - they are the ones who can decide that it is no longer practical/fun/polite to continue... It's the ones that can't slow, descend, re-route and adapt who go IMC before that (when the vis is 10km !! Honestly!) - that's the risk. You've got the risk wrong - you don't want to trade the risk of staying visual being in control and making the right judgements with the dangerous scenario of not being able to do that and going IMC before you even realised and then running the risk of loosing control and becoming dead.


This is totally screwed up logic :TTB - if you concentrated on the important issue of not becoming airborne in marginal weather conditions in the first place then you will not have to concern yourself with wondering how to get out of IIMC. Without at least an IR and LOTS of practice you will kill yourself very quickly. at the same time as the weather is good it is also bad in places - ever seen a wx forecast which does not say "clouds on hills" you cannot avoid the need for the judgement as to how to stay out of cloud by choosing only good weather - you will eventually need that judgement - if you don't 'have it' then merely avoiding getting airbourne (as Epiphany suggests:= ) in marginal wx will not save you when you need the ability to handle the conditions you actually encounter in the real world. Pif: you must agree staying visual must be the over riding essential skill (if absent then the result will be terminal eventually even if you attempt to select wx when you hope your missing skill is not required)


And AnFI - you have completely lost the plot. Gee thanks :ouch: (this subject is too important for that - don't bring it down)

Use some logic - you need to be able to do what you suggest merely in order to survive for long enough to make the decision to go back/land safely etc wx forcasts are not reliable enough to hang your life on (ARE THEY ? ! )

[Epiphany]

OK - ypu win.

I have removed the 'lost the plot' comment as you clearly did not have one in the first place.

[toptobottom]

Epiphany - that's the second time you've said "you win", yet you still come back for more! Your attitude isn't dissimilar to that of a low hours PPL in marginal weather...:(

I'm very lucky, I've got more money than sense and enjoy flying for fun - but I take it very seriously. I am a PPL (there, I said it) but 90% of my flying is in connection with my (non-flying) business. I got my IR 8 years ago but fly VFR almost every day, totalling around 250 hours a year. I've been doing this for over 15 years, almost all in murky UK, so I have had some practice as well as a few scary moments that made me reconsider how well eqipped I am to deal with poor Wx. I'm always eager to learn from those with more experience.

Your problem is that you've failed to grasp the key points that have been raised in this thread and your flippant contributions have diluted some important advice from experienced members - particularly for low time or arrogant pilots who, if they're lucky, might still learn something that could save their lives.

[Hummingfrog]

I have read some interesting and sensible posts on this thread - mainly from the professional pilots:ok:

But this from NigelH

fly right up to a fog bank or low cloud and safely get within say 50 m of it .....but that would be at hover taxi speed . I am guessing

NO NO NO!! have you not heard of recirculation!! There is no such thing as a regular even cloud base or fog bank. If you got within 50m of either you could be in deep and serious trouble:{ The effect of the rotor downwash can drag the fog/cloud around you before you could react. Bearing in mind all IFR equipped helicopters have a min IFR speed (40kts+) you could soon end up as another discussion thread on here.

How do I know this - I have been there as a SAR pilot in both the Brecon Beacons and Cairngorms. Low and slow hover taxy to pick up injured people just above the cloudbase. You think you are approaching the cloudbase when the next minute you are in it but I was trained and very experienced in this type of work and knew and stuck to my limits.

I am amazed that some people on here do not take note of the good advice given by the experienced pilots who have contributed to this thread or even challenge it.

I fly light aircraft for a hobby and it isn't difficult to keep clear of cloud and turn back before you lose references. Why is it so difficult for some
PPL(H)'s to understand this concept!!:(

HF

[topendtorque]

you could soon end up as another discussion thread on here


Why not talk about him? Good idea while we crack another beer, another character assisination of someone what may have been flying around in a fog for half his life, in real machines too. It would break the monotony of AnF1 telling us all what how etc.

[Hummingfrog]

topendtorque

Is irony not a subject taught in Aus!!;)

Why not talk about him? Good idea while we crack another beer, another character assisination of someone what may have been flying around in a fog for half his life, in real machines too.

I was talking about someone who thinks hover taxying up to the cloudbase/fogbank was a way of getting experience!!

HF

(or even grammar and spelling:E)

[Hughesy]

Sometimes its not as easy as just flying from A to B.

Funny, I wouldn't say Epiphany has an ego. He is passing on some pretty good advice.
Its the low timers who wont listen to senior pilots for advice that has the EGO!
Best advice, stay away from the FARKIN white stuff, and if its not feeling right then it isn't.
Oh, and dont worry. It will be a nice sunny day when they come pick up your prang.

Safe flying all....and stay away from cloud if your a VFR pilot.

[nigelh]

Hummingfrog ......of course you are right . I went slightly over the top with that point and accept your criticism . Re read it to be 200 m which gets rid of recirc problem .....my point was solely to point out that you should treat the white stuff as being solid ....you can go around it or under it ....i dont think that is too complicated or contentious ? I think you cannot legislate for this .....i chose to fly INTO it at a very early stage ( with CF11 ) both in single and ME and it was invaluable training . I shall chose to do the same with my son when he finishes his licence ....he will go straight in and realise that it is not a good place to be . Each to his own .

[Thomas coupling]

Nigel, before I bite, may I ask what your flying quals w.r.t. IF are please?

Please please tell me you are an IRI/E....please?

[farsouth]

TC - I think you'll find that the CFII in brackets in Nigel's post refers to the FAA qualification - Certified Flying Instructor (Instrument), and suggests that he chose to go into IMC with a CFII during his training......

On the other hand, a few decades ago I qualified as an FAA CFII (fixed wing) without ever having flown in cloud - all done under the hood, which was then (and maybe now) perfectly legal. :ooh: I never did use the qualification as I shortly after went over to flying helicopters

(sorry, not doing very well today, guess you are referring to the bit about choosing to do it with his son.......)

[Epiphany]

I know, I know. I said that I would not be back but if I hear of a father and son dying in a helicopter crash in the near future I will be asking myself if perhaps I could have done more to prevent it so here goes:

If you go IIMC as an inexperienced, unrated, VFR pilot it means that you were either flying just below a low cloud base or in poor visibility or probably both. It is not a pleasant sensation as it was unexpected, disorienting and you have to make a decision - quickly. You now have 3 choices before panic sets in.

1. Lower the collective and hope for the best. Not a great choice as you were close to the ground with little forward visibility and you don't know what is ahead.

2. Turn 180 degrees and hope to regain VMC. A better choice as you know what was behind you BUT you stand a very good chance of becoming disoriented and losing control with little space to recover if you find yourself becoming VMC upside down at 200' agl. You will probably die of severe trauma but you could find yourself trapped and burn to death.

3. Climb to LSALT and give a MAYDAY call. It is an emergency and will get attention. Best case scenario - you maintain control, you know what LSALT is, you reach it and are visual, you find a gap or someone hears you, identifies you, sends someone to guide you down, you have enough fuel, you manage to descent to VMC and land. I doubt that will happen. More likely you probably have no idea what LSALT is, if you do you might lose control before you get there and even if you get there you might still be IMC and in the winter in freezing conditions. You lose control, keep the PTT pressed and some poor ATC bod will hear your and your passengers screaming all the way down.

Do yourself, your son and your poor friends and realtives a favour. If the weather looks dodgy - stay at home.

[chopjock]

I suppose another option not yet discussed is if in IIMC and hopelessly lost,
rather than just give up and panic, keep the wings level on the AH, turn gently into wind, air speed to less than 40 Kts and slowly descend. I think the airframe is a little more stable in the descent, perhaps even an auto rotation with the needles joined. When you see the ground you will be less than 40 Kts ground speed and just need to flare.
I'll get my coat.

[hihover]

OMFG, Yeah, that's not a bad idea.

:ugh:
:ugh:
:ugh:
:ugh:
:ugh:

FFS

Tam

[puntosaurus]

HaHaHa. I think you're being a bit harsh there hihover. The only thing chopjock got wrong was to say when you see the ground What I think he he meant to say was IF you see the ground (before you hit it or something else).

I also love his suggestion that giving up and panicking is somehow a choice made by the unfortunate victim :eek:.

[nigelh]

Maybe it is my English at fault here . I thought I made it quite clear that I would NOT EVER go imc by myself as I am not qualified and would surely die . All the instrument flying I have done in singles and ME has been with a instructor or very very high time instrument rated pilot . When my son is plunged into it , as I was , he will have the same pilots . I am grateful for all the concern re my well being but can assure you I have flown on and off for 30 yrs In some very difficult terrain and weather and have always remained vmc or landed ( which I have done on many occasions ). The point I have tried to make obviously is not getting there so maybe things should be left as they are because all must be ok with the training and advice we give ppl,s . If I become a statistic it will not be from being Gung Ho I assure you .... I just believe saying don't do something is NOT enough , people need to feel and sense the repercussions of their actions by going into it . Again each to his own ...

[toptobottom]

Epiphany - just to be clear (for benefit of our learned brethren), your option 3) obviously isn't an option. This is exactly what Chris Watts attempted to do (before he got to LSALT - not that he even knew what that was) and it cost him his life.

[Epiphany]

I too have lost the will to live.

[HowlingMad Murdock]

LSALT?:ooh:

[Epiphany]

Low sodium salt. Nice on fish and chips.

[Thomas coupling]

That made me giggle Epiphany - :D

LSALT / MSA: The minimum heights you cannot (safely)descend below without a risk of colliding with cumulogranite. All your plates will have the figures, usually in sectors based on the topography and the ICAO standard pressure.

Nigel: You are right: your grammar is appalling. Hope your flying is better :) What you are trying to say is that you were introduced to IIMC courtesy of the qualified instructor next to you. You would like your son to experience the same if and when the time comes.
Obviously the reader then assumes the conditions were controlled w.r.t. height, speed, attitude, airspace, aircraft type.

What I suspect YOU failed to take away from the experience is that said CFII didn't allow you to fly the a/c to the point where you lost control and allowed the situation to develop into an unusual attitude from which the CFII had to recover. So you don't really appreciate how difficult it is to retain control in IMC without the proper skills. PLEASE don't allow your son to think IIMC is a doddle because it's been shown by a CFII:ugh: :ugh: :ugh:

Chopjock: you are a wind up merchant, right?

[nigelh]

TC. It says on my licence " proficient in English " so you have to be wrong about me gramma ......
Ps I did get in a right old mess ( not in control and in v unusual attitude !!) but only after he , unfairly I think , made me do umpteen 360 ,s and power changes . When I lost it I lost it v quickly and would not have recovered !!!!
( go around button on 109 is a great tool ...if all else fails and you have it )

[MightyGem]

178 seconds to live... - The Aspiring Pilot (http://www.aspiringpilots.com/the-aspiring-pilot/2010/10/178-seconds-to-live-.html)

Posted more to read Anfi and chopjock's responses than in the hope that some will see the sense in it. :ugh:

fXzYZjpoz_E

[chopjock]

MG
I saw the video, very sobering, but why didn't the pilot just slow down, fly lower and slower in order to maintain visual with the surface? or even land for that matter?
Oh I see, this video is all about pilots unable (fixed wing), unwilling or who are not trained to do that.

[Epiphany]

Chopjock, have you ever heard the phrase "An accident waiting to happen"?

[hillberg]

Slow down ? Go down? That makes for a dead pilot & pax. Get in the soup? Climb! level no turns & call someone. Too much stuff to hit near Mother Earth,Lost Pilots have yet to hit the moon.

[Thomas coupling]

hillberg: don't go giving any more mad cap ideas to these guys. We are trying to wean them off going IIMC :ugh:
If they climb, what about icing? If they stay level what about heading as they fly straight into CAS or coast out and disappear over the horizon?
What happens when they run out of fuel waiting for a shephard a/c?

STAY AWAY FROM IIMC. :D

[AnFI]

MG - strange comment - not sure what it is you think I think about this - so just to be clear:
The video is a useful version of an old text version of the same - we used to post it prominently on the notice board. It is only a BASIC MINIMUM element of understanding.
It represents the education required by all VMC pilots as to WHY they should want to not become IMC.
It does not deal with the HOW part. It has limited use, in that it condescendingly presumes that the pilot's who kill themselves (or are destined to kill themselves) do not already know that they should avoid the IMC state which they are incapable of handling - whereas (tragically) they are often highly conscientious individuals who have been attempting to use selection of good weather to stay VMC but were (are) incapable of remaining VMC when judgement, skill and experience is required.

Helicopter pilots must be able to control their aircraft so that they NEVER lose the Visual References required to control their aircraft. They should not view Instrument Reference Flight as the solution to the possible loss of Refs. since it diminishes the more important imperative that they remain VMC. Although of course it is very good for their flying and comprehension of flight to be proficient at IRF in an unstabilised machine (current training does not achieve this since the foggles used permits sight of outside references serving to give the pilot the impression that he can perform IRF when in fact he cannot).

Mighty Gem - do you disagree with any of that? Anyone disagree with that?


(Hillberg - danger - I don't think you intend it but you give the impression that a pilot in bad weather should not descend and slow to remain visual but should deliberately climb and become IMC - whereas I think you are really saying that if they have already become IMC they should not descend and risk hitting the ground ahead - true?)

[Torquetalk]

a vague feeling that something is wrong, scanning the text but losing reference, no horizon in sight... am I IIMC? No. Just reading another AnFI post (fool me). :zzz:

AnFI you are a master of obfuscation and a troll.

Pilots have and will continue to go IIMC, with or without training, in unstabilsed and stabilised machines, with and without AFCS, IR and non-IR qualified. Been there several times under different circumstances, and it will doubtless happen to me again. The obsessive focus on prevention or "maintaining visual references" is complete nonsense - as is the argument that elemental instrument training is harmful and increases risk-taking - that is a question of dangerous attitudes (which, as an FI, you should know).

And my 2 pence worth for the general discussion re. going IIMC is to for fly the aircraft above all else. Get level and stable before turning, talking, climbing or doing anything else. Then you can figure out what might be the best next step.

[hillberg]

AnFI, Spot on,:ok: Inadvertant IMC. is just that.:eek: At nite / spotty weather you can pop in the thick of it, What happens is loss of control or skud running,:= Going low gets you dead, Wires,solid clouds, antennas ,buildings. Just be off a few feet & bang your bugg splatter.:D

IFR / IMC are two different animals.:rolleyes: Dug through what was left of the poor sods that thought they could make it low & slow.:ugh:

[ShyTorque]

Having been trained by the RAF at a very early stage to fly IMC on unstabilised helicopters I am of the opinion that an immediate 180 degree turn in IMC is far from a good idea. Very conducive to the leans and loss of control may quickly result, especially when the adrenaline kicks in and causes overcontrolling.

Controlling the aircraft in a wings level, speed stable attitude and then descending in a straight line by positively lowering the collective is far easier and less likely to lead to spatial disorientation. This technique has certainly saved my bacon on a few occasions.

Obviously, it cannot be used if an obstruction or terrain is an issue so experience has taught me to keep an escape route in mind whenever the weather is marginal. Sometimes that escape route involves not taking off in the first place, despite me being IR trained and flying a well equipped single pilot IFR machine. If in doubt, chicken out!

[AnFI]

TT: Spot the logic :confused:
prevention or "maintaining visual references" is complete nonsenseAND
"will continue to go IIMC" "Been there several times" "it will doubtless happen to me again"- the first makes statement makes the second true - yes you are right - it will happen to you again - are you pleased about that?

We are talking INADVERTENT here - how inadvertent do you think it's ok to be whilst flying?
OOOps I inadvertently flew into a tree
OOOps I inadvertently flew into a hill, wire, cow, cloud, sea etc...
OOOps I inadvertently forgot to fly (doesn't matter Fully Stabilised)

... you are doing the wind-up - right?:D

[toptobottom]

If in doubt, chicken out!
The best 5 words in this entire thread.

Splot, PLEASE - hasn't this thread become the most tedious and exasperating in the history of PPRuNe?! We're in a loop; the entire rotary world vs. AnFI and it's likely to go on forever... :bored:

Can't we just agree to disagree, delete it and move on? There's nothing more to learn by persisting with this monotonous dialogue. If that's not possible, let's stop feeding the troll and maybe it'll go away :*

[Senior Pilot]

The best 5 words in this entire thread.

Splot, PLEASE - hasn't this thread become the most tedious and exasperating in the history of PPRuNe?! We're in a loop; the entire rotary world vs. AnFI and it's likely to go on forever... :bored:

Yes

Can't we just agree to disagree, delete it and move on? There's nothing more to learn by persisting with this monotonous dialogue. If that's not possible, let's stop feeding the troll and maybe it'll go away :*

Delete? Not really, no need if someone, somewhere, somehow realises there is always another side to a discussion. There are younger, lower time pilots who will read these sorts of discussions and be influenced by them: we should all be aware of that and give good advice judiciously on the chance that it may contribute to a life saving decision one day :ok:

[toptobottom]

There are younger, lower time pilots who will read these sorts of discussions and be influenced by them

That's the bit that worries me! :eek:

[chopjock]

the entire rotary world vs. AnFI

That's not true.

[toptobottom]

You're right, I was wrong. I should have said, 'stop feeding the trolls'.

[chopjock]

I should have said, 'stop feeding the trolls'.

So some one has a different opinion, discusses the other point of view and that make's them a troll?

[toptobottom]

CJ: I suppose another option not yet discussed is if in IIMC and hopelessly lost, rather than just give up and panic, keep the wings level on the AH, turn gently into wind, air speed to less than 40 Kts and slowly descend. I think the airframe is a little more stable in the descent, perhaps even an auto rotation with the needles joined. When you see the ground you will be less than 40 Kts ground speed and just need to flare.
I'll get my coat.

Incredibly ignorant, dangerous and stupid. Troll (http://lmgtfy.com/?q=troll).

[Johe02]

This thread should be required reading instead of foggles training - Certainly for Robinsons anyway. :)

It seems there are two sides to this: those that want to stick to 'the book' and those, like me, (and AnFi?) who think 'the book' is flawed and will do what ever they think fit to not enter a cloud.


Rules are for the obedience of fools and the guidance of wise men. (Douglas Bader, British WWII air ace)

[Epiphany]

Rules are for the obedience of fools and the guidance of wise men. (Douglas Bader, British WWII air ace)

Isn't he the one who broke the rules, crashed, almost killed himself and lost both of his legs?

[nigelh]

Good point ... I have to say he is not a name that would spring to mind !!! Reach for the Sky was a great film and he was a great pilot of sorts . My Godfather was senior officer in Colditz ( No ... Not German although his name was in fact ... German . ). He used to take Douglas down to the blacksmith to work on his legs and then fill them with cigarettes etc . He was apparently also unbelievably arrogant which would seem to be a recurrent theme in aviation ( avoidable ) accidents .
Has a rotary imc licence ever been considered ? That possibly combined with new generation autopilots ( retrofit ) could take a good number of pilots out of the pool for iifr ...... Just a thought as some of the new autopilots could be made for sensible price now .
Don't shoot .... I'm just asking !

[SilsoeSid]

ChopjockSo some one has a different opinion, discusses the other point of view and that make's them a troll?

'Hello Pot, This is kettle', Radio Check Over !

[John R81]

The section from the AAIB report that shouts out (to me) is:

"While helicopters have the ability to slow down, turn around or ‘land out’, there seems to be reluctance for pilots to make the decision in a timely manner to do either of these. A pilot’s ability to make a suitable decision to avoid DVE may decrease as the situation deteriorates and result in the helicopter unintentionally entering IMC."


As the consequence of inavertant IMC in a light, unstabalised VFR helicopter (such as I fly) is most likely death, this section of the AAIB report leads me to a simple checklist:


1. Set yourself minimum speed / clearance rules appropriate to your level of experience / aircraft
2. Do not bend these rules
3. Stay on the ground, reverse course, or land before you get to the limit of your rule

[Johe02]

Ha ha, fair point Epiphany - but the sentiment is still valid.

Some people would rather fly into a cloud (and appreciate their instruments) than break the 500 ft rule. .

[ShyTorque]

That's not a big problem if you have the choice to do so. But not in an unstabilised helicopter.