Wow.... but nearly shot down ?????

[expedite_climb]

Well it was a lovely night to be out tonight, free entry to all the public and private fireworks displays around was a nice sight.

My student raised a valid point however. What are the chances of being hit by a firework. I thought minimal, however, passing 200 ft on final, two rockets whizzed by, only slighty below and to the side of us !!! http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/eek.gif

So it seems that in controlled airspace, the public is required to notify Atc if their fireworks will reach a height greater that 60 - 80 ft. This is for obvious reasons, and Joe Public obviously doesnt know this. Many tonight were well above this level.

So. Whats your thoughts on this, and, has an aircraft ever been in collision with a firework.... ??

[This message has been edited by expedite_climb (edited 05 November 2000).]

[Feeton Terrafirma]

Amongst other interests I fly remote control aircraft. (it's a lot harder than full size - no instruments or seat of the pants feel here) and many of the other flyers don't know about or respect altitude restrictions on these toys. Some of the gilders will easily reach 2000 ft when thermalling. The exciting part is that the field is located under the circuit for an international airport. I'd hate to think of the results of a collision, it wouldn't be pretty.

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Once I was VERY good, now I'm very good, once!

[Gluteus Maximus]

I agree with you expedite. There is little public knowledge of rules concerning aircraft. How many people (including pilots) know that it is illegal to fly kites near airports or airfields in the UK, for instance?

There are many hazards to aircraft, not just from fireworks and kites, but projectile weapons, remote controlled aeroplanes and so on. All these can be 'controlled' by members of a largely ignorant (not malicious) public.

The answer is for the Government to instigate a series of Public Information advertisements on TV, radio and other media. The risk may be small, but it does exist, so the expense can easily be justified (what price life?). I have never heard of a direct hit from a firework, but that doesn't mean to say that it will not happen in the future.

As an addendum, I remember, years ago, hearing about a bloke in Germany, who lived near a military helicopter base. He became sick and tired of the noise, so placed an advertisement in a newspaper, asking for people to sell him weapons. He had a heap of replies, including an anti-aircraft gun (with ammo) from a guy in Switzerland. He declined that offer, but ended up with a sling, and Bavarian Dumplings. The pilots had several direct hits from these dumplings, and complained to the authorities. The story ended with the 'terrorist' being charged and fined. It's amazing what can cause a danger to aircraft!

[cossack]

AIRPROX filed @ MAN last night by AFR A320 who encountered a very large "commercial" firework at <1 nm final. Said firework exploded right in front <2 seconds before he flew through it @ a height of 250 feet! This missile was a "one-off", not part of a display, so malice or ignorance or both were to blame I think.

Just like Bastille Day!

Other close encounters experienced. Fortunately traffic levels reasonably low. Tonight, however...

Have seen big fireworks on sale @ Homebase. These things are huge mortars and shouldn't be on sale to Joe Public. The IRA would have them confiscated under the Prevention of Terrorism Act!

If there are members of the public reading this then please do not launch fireworks near airports. Even if a direct hit is avoided, very bright explosions don't do much for night vision. The consequences of a direct hit with a "Homebase Howitzer" do bear thinking about.

PLEASE - COMMON SENSE - DON'T MESS WITH FIREWORKS

[Warped Factor]

An AEF Chipmunk landing on the old 26 at Edinburgh was hit by a golf ball once http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/eek.gif

WF.

[niteflite01]

cossack - I believe that a similar event happened last night at EGGP with an inbound EZY flight. Apparently it really was a close thing. Dunno if they've filed or not.

Having seen some of the areas around EGGP I wouldn't be surprised if it was a malicious attempt - they had a go at Police 24 once, on the apron with an axe, so anything is possible!!!!

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"Go around..I say again...go around"

[HugMonster]

An AEF Chipmunk landing on the old 26 at Edinburgh was hit by a golf ball once
Nasty, very nasty. In particular, what do the local rules say about this? Do you have to take a drop and lose a stroke, or play it as a lost ball? Or do you head off to the airport, wait till the aircraft lands, and then play it from where it was embedded in the air intake? If it was an outbound transatlantic flight, the water hazard across the course is quite something...

[What_does_this_button_do?]

Did the pilot pre-book to play?, after all club rules are club rules....

[fobotcso]

Bet he was teed off.

[EGCC Rwy 24]

Last night's problems at EGCC were caused by an ongoing display at Heald Green apparently. The RADAR controller was alerting all incoming flights, and also checking that they were aware of the new go-around procedure for 24R (which came in on 2/11) just in case.

[G-INGER Roger]

I used to work for a firework firm (Kimbolton Fireworks) and the stuff on sale to J. Public for the last 3 years (no shells) would struggle to get up to much above 100ft.

The large tubes on sale at Homebase were probably what are known as mines. Unlike mortars, they have no lifting charge/shell and just emit stars staight out of the tube in a bit of an arc. Impressive but nothing like as dangerous.

The size of the tube/rocket is often inversely proportional to the power of the effect and is more about cunning marketing than anything else - ever seen those Jumbo Rockets? Compare them to a 4oz Zinc "shell Burst" rocket and you will see what I mean!

As to the joys of lighting a professional 8 inch shell - I guess it almost compares to the excitement flying - but not quite! Watching fireworks has never been the same since though.


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Just keep it Ginger!

[niteflite01]

EGCC RWY 24 - wait till you see one of the new G/A's.

God help anyone who happens to be anywhere near the roof of the FLS hangar :) :)

Not that they would be I suppose.

The poor old spotters in the viewing park would get a nice view too - a 747 screaming hard right onto 360 ;)

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"Go around..I say again...go around"

[This message has been edited by niteflite01 (edited 05 November 2000).]

[Stan Sted]

Did anyone ever solve the mystery of the firework rocket that burst ahead and above an aircraft flying at 8,000FT, I repeat, 8,000ft, shortly after departing STN at about this time last year?

Crew reported seeing a green flash not too far ahead while they were passing east of Barkway (BKY) shortly after midnight. Other crews also reported seeing high flying fireworks. Essex Radar was warned and other departures were routed away from the area.

Even the Army hasn't got any mortars that will go that high.

Mind you, some of these amateur rocketeers are reaching 14,000ft or more, but I don't suppose any of them would be daft enough to launch their creations so late at night and so close to an airport or VOR.

Makes you wonder what damage a rocket capable of reaching 8,000ft would do if it hit an aircraft at 2,000ft.

Anyone else seen any of these things recently? Sensible answers only please, and no jokes about UFOs.

PS don't forget the PPRuNe bash at Gatwick on Friday Dec 1 for more fireworks of a different kind!!



[This message has been edited by Stan Sted (edited 06 November 2000).]

[Honest Frank]

We bought a "whopper" rocket from Asda-big f**ker.Set it alight and I reckon it could have done some damage.It must have gone at least 100'+.
Would have gone further if the missus wasn't strapped to it.

[Mycroft]

I was at an 'altitude' of 450' north of Portsmouth on Saturday evening and although the majority of rockets did not reach that height, about 10% burst at up to 1000' waith on or two at much greater altitude, probably 2-3000, and of course those were the ones with the largest bang at the end. There were no professional displays in the area, which would obviously be of more concern, although I would assume professional pyrotechnicians would be well aware of restrictions.

[SNIFF R404a]

Doing some Night hour building recently near Dungannon when I saw a green coloured rocket in my 1 o clock position pass above my flight path and descend back down before burning out.

This would seem normal enough given the time of year except for the fact that I was level at 3000 ft!

needless to say a diversion was quickly undertaken.

[EGCC Rwy 24]

NiteFlite - 750 Ft or 0 DME whichever comes second.... let's just hope nobody ever gets it the wrong way round, or the FLS hanger might lose its roof!

Dammit .... If it's climbing slowly enough I'll probably lose the roof of my house!

[This message has been edited by EGCC Rwy 24 (edited 06 November 2000).]

[Dr. Red]

If it is found that someone has fired a rocket maliciously at an aircraft, even just as a 'joke', what should the punishment be?

[SNIFF R404a]

Dr. Red

Boil the offender in hot bicycle oil! :)

I believe that this would be a breach of articles 55 and 56 of the Air Navigation Order (Imperilling the Safety of Aircraft, Persons or Property).

No doubt the CAA already have a cunning and fiendish punishment for this.

[niteflite01]

Copied EGCC Rwy 24 - lets just hope for your roof's sake that a PIA 747 never has to go around. Notorious to say the least :)

That really would be dodgy - a sight to see indeed ;)

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"Go around..I say again...go around"

[Skycop]

Dr. Red,

As I remember,

Endangering an aircraft carries possible sentence of 2 yrs in jail or a fine of up to 5 thousand pounds. Or an unlimited fine in some circumstances.

The CAA are quite likely also to level such a charge for deliberately shining bright lights at aircraft or also possibly for making malicious R/T transmissions.

This has been done and will continue to be done, especially as certain aircraft can now video record certain persistent offenders.

'Nuff said.


[This message has been edited by Skycop (edited 21 November 2000).]

[Flap 5]

Sniff,

It's been a while since I really studied the Air Navigation Order but I don't think it mentions boiling offenders in bicycle oil. It probably doesn't as it would indeed imperil the offender.

[Lu Zuckerman]

Many years ago I lived in Playa del Rey adjacent to the North runway at LAX. There was a field nearby and several youths (Yeeth)
had gotten hold of a large chunk of Magnesium. I don't know what they used to get it lighted but once it started burning it created a very bright light which most likely blinded some of the pilots in the L-10s, MD-10s and the 747s as these were the only aircraft using that runway. It was probably most dangerous for the pilots who, following company procedure would lift off just short of the old Nike Base at the end of the runway.

Normally the aircraft were 500 to 800 feet above the runway and the viewing angle was diminished. The burning magnesium was less than 1000 feet from the Nike Site. The airport police and the fire department were on the scene but by that time the mag was consumed.

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The Cat

[This message has been edited by Lu Zuckerman (edited 19 November 2000).]

[VnV2178B]

Well at least you London types should be safe over new year as Bob Geldof's display has been called off.
What do you do with a ship full of fireworks ?
If you have an answer give St. Bob a call !

VnV...
(Spodited for elling)

[This message has been edited by VnV2178B (edited 21 November 2000).]