View Full Version : L-410 Reported Down Near Recife Brazil
surplus1
13th Jul 2011, 13:55
16 Reported lost by AP. Any details?
jcjeant
13th Jul 2011, 15:38
Hi,
FAB - Nota oficial 2 - Acidente aeronáutico no Recife (http://www.fab.mil.br/portal/capa/index.php?mostra=7639)
G1 - Avião cai no Recife e deixa 16 mortos, diz Corpo de Bombeiros - notícias em Brasil (http://g1.globo.com/brasil/noticia/2011/07/aviao-cai-em-terreno-baldio-no-recife-segundo-bombeiros.html)
FlyingRabbit
13th Jul 2011, 15:40
Let-410 PR-NOB from Brazilian regional airline NOAR, flying from Recife to Mossoro with a stop in Natal. 16 confirmed fatalities.
A sad day for Brazilian aviation.
aguadalte
13th Jul 2011, 17:06
I would dare to suspect to point out a probable cause: kites.
Kites, also called "pipas" by the local community is a kind of a "national kids sport" in Brasil.
Last time I flew to Brasil I have made an ASR due to a near-miss on final approach to SBRF Rwy 18 and have reported also to TWR.
Kites are a great game sport for kids (and adults), but present a potential danger to aviation when practiced near airports.
SLFinAZ
13th Jul 2011, 17:47
ASN Aircraft accident Let L-410UVP-E20 PR-NOB Recife-Guararapes International Airport, PE (REC) (http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=20110713-0)
surplus1
13th Jul 2011, 18:06
Speculation: Double engine failure?
Varig
13th Jul 2011, 19:01
Hi,
Kites here in Brazil are in fact very popular among kids. The funny thing is that they have seasons to play with kites that are during july and end/beggining of year when kids are on holidays of school. Neverthless, kites dont imposes such a risk to aircrafts that could lead to an accident. The reports so far about this aircraft is that it was grounded for several days on maintenance, some flights have been cancelled because of this, a friend of mine reported that a few days ago he saw this very same aircraft inside the company's hangar with mechanics doing some job on the rigth engine and today was probably his first flight after these checks. The pilot declared emergency right after take off, at first he said he was going to return to the airport landing on the opposite runway but right after that he declined and informed he was going for a forced landing on the beach.
stepwilk
13th Jul 2011, 19:40
I would dare to suspect to point out a probable cause: kites.
Like maybe the kite string got wrapped around one of the props and caused it to stop????
TomasR
13th Jul 2011, 21:51
The Black Boxes haven't been retrieved yet :sad:
Crash: NOAR L410 near Recife on Jul 13th 2011, lost height (http://avherald.com/h?article=43fa03da&opt=0)
aguadalte
14th Jul 2011, 00:30
Quote:
I would dare to suspect to point out a probable cause: kites.
Like maybe the kite string got wrapped around one of the props and caused it to stop????
stepwilk, if your intention was to be fun, you may have succeeded in front of some idiotic audience.
Take a look at this link: Pipa (brinquedo) (http://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pipa_%28brinquedo%29)
and you may find that it is not so funny to find one of those things above 300ft in your landing flight path.
My last flight to REC was on the 9th of this month and I can tell you that the "pipa" I saw passing below my wing would certainly have made my day if it happened to be swallowed by my number one engine. It's called FOD. And may damage aircraft and engines.
The L410 is a turbo-prop engined aircraft and so, subjected to FOD. The structure of this kites is not only made of paper. Some of them are huge and do pose a risk to aviation.
Guys,
At 06:51lt there are no kites Airborne.
Let's wait and see. Investigation is on the way now. They got Voice and data recorders, an amateur video of the final 12 sec of the Flight (including the loss of control and crash) and several other important details and info.
Let them work!
All the best,
Sydy
Charlie Alfa
14th Jul 2011, 11:56
It´s more danger a ballon than a kite in Brazil, also in June/July we have a lot cuz of the holidays, Anyway
Sad for the losts...in the local news have some rumours about the co-pilot reporting constant maintence problems in the aircraft, so let´s wait and see what CENIPA (Brazilian investigators) conclude.
PS: Sydy, Contato Radar didn´t expect you here, what a nice surprise
Hi CA,
Contato Radar (another site) is nice, but I really like PPRuNe. Much more worldwide usable info in here.
News about that crash is that Noar decided to ground the other acft.
Cya,
Sydy
How does a L410 perform in single-engine conditions? How often NOAR pilots do sim training? Some part135 operators in Brazil don't even send their pilots to the sim.
Anyway, watching the video it seems they could be flying below Vmca and entered into a spin. Not much left of the airplane, except for the tail and left wing...left tip tank is intact, maybe an indication that there was no fuel in it and weight and balance was not an issue (or at least they were below MTOW).
Brgds
zedoscarro
14th Jul 2011, 17:39
Video of the plane going down
By what I can see it gets more and more right bank as the time passes by...
G1 - Vídeo registra avião instantes antes de cair no Recife - notícias em Brasil (http://g1.globo.com/brasil/noticia/2011/07/video-registra-aviao-instantes-antes-de-cair-no-recife.html)
Varig
14th Jul 2011, 17:53
The types of Kites common in Brazil are far less sophisticated than those presented on this wikipedia article, its basically made of 3 or 2 thin, +- 40cm wooden sticks and paper, yet it may impose some risks to aviation as F.O.D but I never heard about any accident caused by a kite here. It seens to me so far that the airplane suffered an engine failure and the pilot probably failed to feather the prop for some reason.
Escape Path
14th Jul 2011, 18:19
Anyway, watching the video it seems they could be flying below Vmca and entered into a spin
Looks like it to me... lack of control surface authority. Anyone with a shaper eye care to give an opinion? :confused:
As far as I know there there have been nearly 17 fatal accidents with this type of A/C. Not a good record!!
supermoix
14th Jul 2011, 20:02
EP and GBV:
I agree with you both, it appears the airplane is on a too high angle of attack than normal and obviously banking too much for an engine out abnormal operation. apparently below Vmca in the video.
In the takeoff phase, the L-410 UVP and UVP-E will fly good enough with one engine if flown within its limits, if you can clean the airplane in schedule and the autofeather kicks in, or you manually feather, it will fly. If not, you're surely on a controlled descent (at MTOW). Stable, docile aircraft in general, predictable and heavy on the controls. Lands on a dime and takes off in a quarter.
The only L-410 sim I knew of was in Kiev in the early 90's. from my knowledge, through Latin America initials and recurrents are done in the actual airplane, no big deal if you know what you're doing and the trainee/trainer are of at least average experience for this type. (I would loved to have a sim in my time to take/impart training though).
Sad day, loss of life are never welcome news.
DownIn3Green
14th Jul 2011, 21:27
Most posters (posers) on this thread are nuts...
Nothing wrong with the Let... I had to "RIDE" on one while positioning when I worked in Point Noir in the Congo...Always a fine trip with Trans Air Congo...
Nor is there anything wrong with Brazilian Aviation...Flew there many, many times while working for a Major US Carrier...
Have any of you naysayers even considered the fact that these pilots did everything correct, but they just happened to have been dealt a "bad hand" on this particular day???
Didn't think so...Maybe some of you should think, however...
DownIn3Green,
Anything is possible and nothing is ruled out. The investigation is moving on and they will find out what happened.
Both Pilots were ex-military with good history, but nothing is discarded.
Let's wait for the final report.
All the best,
Sydy
Escape Path
15th Jul 2011, 04:25
from my knowledge, through Latin America initials and recurrents are done in the actual airplane
@ Supermoix:
Correct. On small types like the L-410, the DHC-6 and the likes training is usually done in the airplane. I haven't heard of one of those flights ever crashing.
Have any of you naysayers even considered the fact that these pilots did everything correct, but they just happened to have been dealt a "bad hand" on this particular day???
@DI3G: Rightly so; none of us are exempted from that one. No one has said otherwise though.
Flyboy_Luke
16th Jul 2011, 08:06
supermoix (http://www.pprune.org/members/70070-supermoix)
Yes, the plane stalled and probably with max power on left engine went into right spin. http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/confused.gif We still have one sim in Ostrava, Czech Rep. so us who still enjoy flying this nice plane in Europe/Africa can still undergo proper training. http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/wink2.gif
Supermoix, thanks for the info. As for the sim, there's one in Sasovo, Russia, but it's an older version and with Russian avionics, i flew it only for fun a couple of times. I heard there's one sim in Czech Rep. as well where probably pilots can do their initial training, it could be part of the package when an airline first buys a L410. Anyway, i don't believe part135 operators in Brazil train engine failures after takeoff, some even don't do base training, just ground school and line training.
Just watched the video again, when the airplane first appears it has its wings leveled, high pitch and at really low altitude. Maybe the pilots realized that they wouldn't make it to the runway and tried a right turn to land on the beach. Some extra hundred meters and they would have landed on the beach and there was a great chance everybody would have survived. What a shame...
or is there anything wrong with Brazilian Aviation...Flew there many, many times while working for a Major US Carrier...
Sorry, but you probably don't know much about Brazilian aviation. There are a lot of bad part135 operators down there. Recently a PA34 crashed after takeoff from Manaus, completely overloaded. On another case a Learjet crashed after takeoff from Campo de Marte due to fuel imbalance, the pilots didn't even bother to read any checklists during taxi. And finnally, a helicopter crashed a couple of weeks ago and the "pilot" didn't have a current license. A good number of very professional pilots in Brazil, but many idiots as well.
brgs
Charlie Alfa
16th Jul 2011, 15:55
GVB
I don´t know if u are brazilian, but the accidents you mention was based in 91 aviation...and some of them occur few years ago.
Brazilian aviation is safe and with good marks, even in the 135...despite some airlines.
In NoAr and all the others LET-410 operators here, they only do training in the airplane, sometimes we see TGL´s training with these aircrafts
Charlie Alfa,
PT-EFS was operated by Amazonaves Taxi Aereo, so RBHA 135
PT-OVC was operated by Reali Taxi Aereo, also RBHA 135 as we can see on the final report:
http://www.cenipa.aer.mil.br/cenipa/paginas/relatorios/pdf/pt_ovc_04_11_07.pdf
it even says on page 20 that the pilots were required to take sim sessions during their initial training, which was never done...
i don't know much about the helicopter that crashed in Porto Seguro, but just the fact that there's a guy with no license flying an aircraft around means there's something wrong going on.
cheers
Varig
16th Jul 2011, 20:02
Ok, so blame all brazilian aviation because 2 or 3 accidents you mentioned with a gap of more or less 5 years between 'em. I think you should get a life and see the world more often instead of saying so many BS in front of your computer
Da Mooca
16th Jul 2011, 22:45
Yes, Brazilian aviation has been a mess lately and it is unacceptable.
Every other week there's an accident report. It can be a helicopter or a high performance aircraft or a small airplane. Last week, beside that crash in Recife, there were 3 more cases involving a helicopter and 2 SE airplanes.
Fatal accidents have occurred with pilots at controls without formal training and checks, license and medical certificate.
Basic training to prepare new pilots at flying schools has frozen in time with old and expensive fleet and outdated training programs and resources. Additionally, a bunch of instructors has been attracted to fly shiny jets or turboprops, consequently there is a lack of good and experience professionals in several training centres.
Everywhere, airport infrastructure needs a huge revamp.
ATCOs are low paid.
Some carriers pay peanuts for their pilots.
And the list goes on …