Logbook a disgrace [Archive]

Spelunker

8th Jul 2011, 03:04

Isn't it true that since a logbook is a legal document then you are not allowed to use liquid paper to erase mistakes?

From the CASA website;
Requirement to hold a log book

A pilot must keep a personal log book [Civil Aviation Regulation (CAR) 5.51]

A log book consists of a number of pages permanently bound together in such a way that pages may not be replaced or removed;
An electronic record is not acceptable as a log book, however, a computer printout bound together in the form of a log book and maintained up to date is acceptable;

All manual entries to the log book must be made in permanent ink;
This log book is to be produced to the Civil Aviation Safety Authority (CASA) when requested;
Falsification of a log book is a criminal offence;
There is no regulatory requirement to carry a personal log book on a flight.

You will be admired for your integrity if nothing else

I disagree. It's akeen to showing up to an interview looking like a hobo. If you apply to an airline, what will they think of your professionalism as a pilot if you can't even write neatly in a logbook. It just begs the question of what you operate like as a professional pilot, if a simple thing like entering details into a logbook makes you look on par with a 5 year old using crayons in a colouring book.

I agree that you shouldn't start from scratch. Not sure if there is a legal issue with doing that.

john_tullamarine

8th Jul 2011, 03:10

full of white-out

White out is a naughty no-no for any required records. If an alteration is required due error or whatever,

(a) put a line through the original, incorrect entry so that the original entry can still be read without difficulty but it is obvious what the corrected bits are

(b) enter the correct information

(c) sign the correction entry with DTG

Not so much a problem with pilot log books but pretty standard fare for maintenance records.

Steve888

8th Jul 2011, 04:34

The beginning of my logbook (still on number 1) really looks like a dogs breakfast with cross outs and, I'm afraid to say, white out; but I didn't know any better then. However, when I started CPL training I decided that I should take better care of it and there's a marked improvement in the quality of my entries from then.

So my advice is: don't start again, just make a conscious effort to write nearly from now on. Employers usually only want to see the last few pages anyway, and even if they see the messy ones, they can then see that you've tried to improve it.

Charlie Foxtrot India

8th Jul 2011, 05:12

White out is a no-no on legal docs. As are blank lines.

The amount of times I've heard "But my instructor said (??!!) I had to start a new page each month"...would you leave blank lines in any other legal document, that could be filled in later? eg Police statement? Offer on a house? etc It renders the monthly "log book correct" stamps invalid also if there is then room for another 20 or so Biro hours to be put in after.

Also if you start again you will need to get all the monthly stamps done again.

Better that students should be taught from day one that it is a legal document, the penalties for falsifying it and the requirement to keep it legible.

2ndGen

8th Jul 2011, 05:42

Thanks for the responses.
Hmmm I have left about 3 lines at the end of each month with a summary below in red so no room for falsification, however used loads of whiteout due to a large error that could not be merely crossed out as the error flowed through my logbook requiring changes on every page (actually more than one error).
By the sounds of it an acceptable compromise would be to continue (neater from here on in) in my original logbook but transfer all hours to an electronic logbook and use bound printouts of that for interviews?

chopcat

8th Jul 2011, 07:08

electronic logs are acceptable, so get yourself something like log ten and input your current logs. you can then print your smart looking log book.
I would continue to run the electronic log alongside the paper version logging in the electronic version and then transferring regularly to the paper version. that way any mistakes are made on the computer.

baswell

8th Jul 2011, 10:25

electronic logs are acceptable
To employers maybe, but not to CASA:

A log book consists of a number of pages permanently bound together in such a way that pages may not be replaced or removed

Maybe printing them when a page is full and glueing them into your paper log would apply, but talk about looking messy!

So I use the double method, Log Ten Pro for the real, useful, log book and the papyrus version for our ancient overlords.

Capt Claret

8th Jul 2011, 11:05

White out is a no-no on legal docs. As are blank lines.

marvellous how a Very large Z through the blank lines, renders them no longer, blank. :}

that guy

8th Jul 2011, 11:14

On a similar topic, my logbook cover is looking fairly beaten up and abused, can you have them re-covered?

Cheers!

TG

tmpffisch

8th Jul 2011, 11:26

that guy - I had one of these made up. It may help.
pilot logbook cover (http://www.underhide.com.au/productsa/leather-pilot-lobook-covers/)

Capt Fathom

8th Jul 2011, 11:38

I see nothing in the regs that says you can't use white out, or leave blank lines.

White out and blank lines do not constitute falsifying your logbook.

Let's keep this simple.

djpil

8th Jul 2011, 12:14

I would never argue with John Tullamarine however I often use white-out in my log-book. I also often simply cross an entry out. I never sign my logbook.
It is my logbook. It complies with the requirements.
Certainly some-one may challenge the whited out bit - no real reason to challenge that than any other entry.

Certainly there are other documents where I would never use white-out and never accept it from anyone else - typically where the document is used or provided to some-one else. Saves all sorts of arguments down the track.

One day I may convert to an electronic logbook. Of course, I'd never notice the mistakes until after I had printed and bound the pages so I would inadvertently end up with multiple logbooks with different entries in them.

Dreamflyer1000

8th Jul 2011, 13:54

At a certain flight school in NZ, if you do not leave a blank line between entries, the CP will get you a new logbook, and make you copy it all out again to their standards...happened right in front of me...
Safe to say, after I finished my CPL, I have gone to missing nothing!

mattyj

8th Jul 2011, 21:10

on the front cover of mine it states

"the use of correction fluid is unacceptable"

I twinked out the "un"

:ok:

rmcdonal

8th Jul 2011, 22:57

My log book started back when I was 15 so it varied in standard as I grew older. It even changed colour on some pages depending on where I was working (has a nice red/brown tinge for a good section of it). I have used white out and the red line through entries, I have tried filling all the spaces and tried one page a month. CASA have gone through my log book with all these things and the only issue they had was me forgetting to put the 0 in before a decimal place (eg 0.5, not .5). It has also passed 3 interviews without comment (accept for the usual 'yep flown that, and that, and is that still flying?').
Having your logbook signed off seems like a flying school thing as I have never seen it done anywhere else, or had anyone care that it wasn't done (including CASA). I suppose they figure if you are going to fake hours then you will probably fake the signature anyway.
Currently I find that running my log book on excel first makes adding it up easier and also helps to prevent errors, I try and use the same pen each time (helps to keep it a bit neater), and normally fill it in every month or so in one go. Some pilots have a thing about taking their log book in their nav bags, however having had my bag stolen I leave the book at home.

For future entries I would recommend sitting down and carefully filling your logbook in so that you don't have as many errors, as some of the other posts have said, they tend to only look at the last few pages anyway. I normally go with one month a page, on average that gives me about 2-3 lines free (useful if you have missed an entry or need to put in a totals correction), on quiet months I will squeeze in 2.
I would certainly recommend starting up a digital copy, even so that if you loose a logbook or it gets destroyed you have a copy of all your flying. It is also useful for figuring out time on type and other hard to add up hrs.

Capn Bloggs

9th Jul 2011, 09:26

on the front cover of mine it states

"the use of correction fluid is unacceptable"

I twinked out the "un"

Love ya work! :ok: :D

Nose wheel first

9th Jul 2011, 10:49

"the use of correction fluid is unacceptable"

I guess that means that correction TAPE is ok then? :E

The flying school where I learned to fly insisted on leaving a blank line between each flight/entry. This was to make it look neater or something. Somewhat impractical when you're doing several flights a day out in the real world.

I now fill in every line, only leave one blank line in between months.
ie: June 30 aa-bb-cc-aa
Blank line
July 01 aa-cc-bb-aa
July 02 dd-ee
etc, etc

yowieII

9th Jul 2011, 13:16

RM,
Whilst not a requirement in Aus, without those "stamps" verifying your qualifications and recent activity in most of the countries ozzies seem to end up will NOT happen, so get the stamps, you just never know...

Lasiorhinus

9th Jul 2011, 17:07

Stamps, otherwise known as Sticky Labels, that go in the front of your logbook and show endorsements and ratings, that's one thing.
You need those in your logbook or an appropriate entry on your license.

Stamps put in by flying schools are simply a way for the flying school to certify that the times in your logbook while training for a particular license or rating are in agreement with their training records. A licensed pilot needs to certify that entries into the logbook are correct. While you're a student, this duty generally falls to your instructor. Once you are licensed, you are entirely capable of certifying your own logbook.
And if you happen to decide to re-write your entire logbook out, there's nothing stopping you re-certifying all the pages right from the start, yourself. All you're doing is making a statutory declaration that the information is correct. You do NOT need stamps from flying schools that may or may not even be still in business.

Aussie Bob

9th Jul 2011, 22:26

I re-wrote mine once because it was a mess, no regrets.

What I have found is that no one looks at them much anyway. Certainly not CASA in my chief pilot interviews (several of) and certainly not the folk I have ever worked for.

As a CP I look at the last few pages and do a sort of flip through looking for nothing in particular. I couldn't care less if there were stamps from a flying school or not. I look at the sticky label page, recent entries and the BFR, take TT at face value then go flying to see.

The best log books I have seen have things like photographs and other memorabilia sticky taped in. I admire this.

Feather #3

10th Jul 2011, 01:45

Well, I'm on logbook #6 and have committed every sin in the book according to some posters [with, I hasten to add, the exception of "Parker pen hours!!":=]

As to Spelunker's comments below, a good mate of mine, whose logbook entries are perfect copperplate, had his integrity questioned when he went for a QF job because they were so good! You can't win sometimes however, he DID get the job!]

G'day ;)

aileron_69

10th Jul 2011, 09:05

Why would you want to put MORE hours in than you already did? Its hard enough trying to squeeze your flights in to fit within the flight and duty limits as it is. Unless you're trying to get more time off which I can see the benefit of. "sorry boss, cant fly today, out of hours" :E

djpil

10th Jul 2011, 10:15

A licensed pilot needs to certify that entries into the logbook are correctwhere is the requirement for this defined?

Capt Fathom

10th Jul 2011, 10:41

And how do you ensure entries are correct, let alone certify them as such! E.O.& E.

Cessna 180

10th Jul 2011, 12:49

A well used looking log book probably just proves that you have been around a bit, would have thought the odd error here and there is normal.
Mine certainly improves as it gets further in, the first few pages are pretty rough.
Usually put in a few details if it was a particularly memorable trip, to remind me of it down the track.
Have not missed any lines, just total it up at the bottom in the space provided.
In fact had not ever considered using one page per month or missing lines.

Also not sure why would you take log book with you in your nav bag on a daily basis, would just get it knocked about more.

yowieII

10th Jul 2011, 12:59

As per my previous, self certification will not cut it, CP or equivalent certification will, most companies do actually have a stamp(the ink pad type) to cover this..

aileron_69

10th Jul 2011, 14:21

As per my previous, self certification will not cut it, CP or equivalent certification will, most companies do actually have a stamp(the ink pad type) to cover this..

In the front of my logbook it reads under certification of logbooks:

"In accordance with Civil Aviation Rule (CAR) 61.29, logbook entries must be certified by the owner in the space provided. Columns (1) to (12) are to be totalled and the total flight experience to be transferred to the left-hand pages.
Following the satisfactory completion of any flight test, ratng, or biennial review, the flight examiner or flight instructor who conducted this exercise is to certify competence in this logbook"

As to carrying the logbook in the plane, I remember this question from an air law exam. Its the same for pilots as aircraft logbooks, you cant take them on board if you are flying the plane, just as you cant take the aircraft logbooks on the plane that they are for. Otherwise if you crash and they are destroyed, how is the ATSB meant to check through the records?

Lasiorhinus

10th Jul 2011, 15:09

On carrying your personal logbook in the plane with you:

Why? There is no requirement ever to lug the thing around with you, and I personally do feel uneasy if I ever do have to fly with it. There is also no prohibition on carrying your personal log book, unlike aircraft log books. I have carried mine on board, when flying somewhere for a reasonably permanent move, but for most of the time, my logbook stays safe and secure at home. It comes out from time to time when I update it from my records on the excel spreadsheet, and it leaves the house when I do renewals.

Capt Fathom, when you sign it, you are certifying that the entries are correct. How you determine this is up to you, but the basic premise is that you honestly believe them to be correct.

yowieII, self-certification most certainly is acceptable, and is how most people do it. There are some big flying schools out there that insist on certifying their staff's logbooks monthly, but that is for their own reasons, and not at all to do with being required to.

djpil

11th Jul 2011, 00:00

Regardless of what may be printed in a logbook regarding the laws of another country, I only need to comply with the Australian regs.
Just because the company which printed my logbook provides a box to certify entries are correct does not mean that I have to use it.

yowieII

11th Jul 2011, 03:12

Las,
Yeah I know it's ok in aus, my point was that self cert most likely wouldn't be accepted o/s, as per my experience..

aroa

14th Jul 2011, 05:28

that if CASA get hold of yr logbook they will trawl thru all the pages to find lines not fully filled in and each one constitutes a criminal offence and a penalty.

If you think yr book is not perfect, you are not obliged to hand it over, as there may be "something" in there... like a line on fully filled in.. which may/ will convict you. You are not required to convict yrself. So, beware.

Does this reg for a criminal offence have a "safety" case?. No
Should an error as minor as this even be something that gives you a criminal record?. No
Does it fall within the Government guidelines for what constitutes a crime, or a strict liability offence? No, on both counts.
Why is it then so?

Because CASA has a punitive/reactive approach to aviation "safety" like no other.
And who gives a fcuk about the Government of the day anyway,we are in charge says CASA, we'll do it our way. To hell with the rules.

And thats why aviation in this country is in the sorry state its in today. :\

Steve888

14th Jul 2011, 06:22

find lines not fully filled in and each one constitutes a criminal offence and a penalty.Have you got a source or reference for that one aroa?

rmcdonal

14th Jul 2011, 07:11

self cert most likely wouldn't be accepted o/s, as per my experience..
How does it work when you private hire or fly for multiple companies? Who can certify your log book? Not having a go, just curious as to how this works elsewhere?
Just so we are clear, I am not talking about endorsements/ Renewals/ Flight tests etc., just day to day flying.

Capt Fathom

14th Jul 2011, 07:31

The legal requirements have been posted previously!

Civil Aviation Regulation (CAR) 5.51

The main point is:

Falsification of a log book is a criminal offence;

The rest is heresay and opinion!

Steve888

14th Jul 2011, 07:43

Falsification of a log book is a criminal offence
And leaving a line blank is not falsification.

flyhardmo

14th Jul 2011, 10:29

I was pretty messy with my first logbook with lots of whiteout. 2nd logbook had alot less whiteout in it. No one cares. If you are doing the same routes they can verify an error with other flights on the page. That said neither CASA or any airline I've interviewed with including major carriers have ever questioned the integrity of the entries.
Try putting pictures in your log book. It puts a story to your entries and takes the focus away from all of the messy writing :ok:

Air Tourer

14th Jul 2011, 11:20

So, should I put my "messy" crash photo in? :O

yowieII

14th Jul 2011, 12:13

RM,
Mine was to initially gain a "provisional licence" to be able to operate ASAP, with exams etc to come within 6 months. Not having my book stamped, a local "sourcing" of a suitable stamp and and accompanied by a management signature, all was good:} Don't get me started on the medical...
However, to answer your question, as stated, CP, CFI, Checkie, someone with any authority would prob do, just make it look official:ok:

jas24zzk

14th Jul 2011, 12:28

I am in the process of doing a logbook re-write. Mine got water damaged. :{

I spoke with casa about the issue, and they are happy to have the Local ATO sign off on it, as I have always ran an electronic copy that he can refer to. I am lucky that my water damage is soft enough that the pertinant info is still readable with some thought. So i have a good basis to write a new book and get it it fully cert'd.

To write a new logbook based on the fact that you were haphazard with it from the get go..........................good luck with that!!!

As an employer, i would look at your early entries and seek to find a maturing pilot in the later entries..............my gliding logbook certainly shows this with my grading of early flights with happy/sad face icons.\

Take a look and a think, and ask yourself is it worth the hundreds of hours to re-write, or are you better off leaving it as is and ensuring future entries are more professional and show a developing pilot?

A little hint here....if you have problems getting your entries correct first time, then photocopy the pages, play with the photocopy's till you have it right then copy it into your book.

Cheers
Jas

aroa

18th Jul 2011, 12:16

Lucky triple 8..

A line not completely filled in, ie forgot to note.. from...to, (v busy)
BUTdate, a/c, time, pic, VFR all listed.

Thus the obligation to have EVERYTHING written in, and not... an offence.

Moral of the story.. No log book,..."lost, stolen".

As the lawyer said: No paper work, no evidence, no conviction.

I'll remember that next time.

ps.. and CASA persons know that all to well. Its called " unfortunately that material was accidental put thru the shredder" :{