Aerobatics in an Auster

[Genghis the Engineer]

I've been asked about helping an Auster owner with an NPPL learn aerobatics. Based at a strip near Stapleford.

Irrespective of any ongoing debate about whether a CRI holder can teach aeros or not, and the need for specific courses or not, I'm not doing it because despite good type knowledge and knowing the owner fairly well, I'm just about competent flying aeros, and don't regard myself as up to teaching them.

If there's anybody who would be up for it, drop me a PM and I'll happily put you in touch. Happy to share my personal notes on flying the Auster as well if they're any use.

G

[ifitaintboeing]

I have spoken with your friend in the last few days, and put him in touch with a very experienced instructor in that area.

Whilst it is described as an aerobatic trainer, the Auster Aiglet is only stressed to [from memory] +4/-2g. I have recommended that he obtain proper instruction in aerobatics on an appropriate type with similar power/weight as an Auster, before transferring that skill onto his aircraft under the guidance of an instructor.

Feel free to PM me Genghis.

ifitaint...

[goldeneaglepilot]

Your posting brings back some bad memories - An Auster D6 G-ARCS, which was owned by a black country businessman, Eric Mattey. I had the frightening experience of flying it. Eric told me that only 4 had ever been built and it was originally designed to supercede the Aiglet. Fortunatly Auster saw sense and discontinued producing it, after the other three had crashed....

It was designed for, but never cleared for aerobatics, it flick rolled without warning if you slowed it down, and its ground handling was twitchy to say the least. Eric loved it, but it was a handful, he said I would get used to it. Never did and found a Pitts Special easier to fly!!

I have tried aerobatics in an Aiglet, it demands a gentle touch and care not to over stress. I would be tempted to say to anyone - learn aerobatics on something else and then when you have a few hours of aerobatic time under your belt try very gently, Its very easy to stress the airframe on the Aiglet, with poorly performed aerobatics.

[Genghis the Engineer]

I have spoken with your friend in the last few days, and put him in touch with a very experienced instructor in that area.

Whilst it is described as an aerobatic trainer, the Auster Aiglet is only stressed to [from memory] +4/-2g. I have recommended that he obtain proper instruction in aerobatics on an appropriate type with similar power/weight as an Auster, before transferring that skill onto his aircraft under the guidance of an instructor.

Feel free to PM me Genghis.

ifitaint...

Slightly wider than that ifitain - about 4.5/-2 from memory.

Thanks for that - he is very determined to do things in his own aeroplane, and you can't blame him for wanting to try. That doesn't stop your advice being perfectly sensible! Before I flew the aerobatic clearances on it for LAA I refreshed on an 150 aerobat, which did the job for me well.

As you may have noticed, he's a pilot of, err, strong opinions.

G

[goldeneaglepilot]

You can take a horse to water, but you cant force it to drink....

People are offering sound advice. Has the pilot ever done aerobatics? Or is this the pilots first experience of flying aerobatics? Is the pilot simply wanting someone to help him get used to aerobatics on type, rather than learn aerobatics from scratch on his own aeroplane?

[Genghis the Engineer]

He wishes to learn aerobatics from scratch. In his own aeroplane, which is semi-aerobatic.

G

[Fournierf5]

If only Ranald Logan Porteous was still with us!
[/URL]
[URL]http://thetartanterror.********.com/2007/10/ranald-l-porteous-1918-1998.html (http://austerhg.org/auster_mags/Auster%20News%20Volume%205%20No%204.pdf)

. . . .'After some thought and practice I proved to my own satisfaction that the Aiglet's quite remarkably crisp characteristics enabled it to flick reliably from inverted to inverted at the top of the loop '. . .

[djpil]

I did some of my initial aerobatic training in an Auster many years ago.
Some of my friends did it in a Beagle Pup. 4.5g limit also.
The Airtourer that I use to teach in currently - now that I am a grown man we are above the aerobatic weight and the T-6 is approved for aerobatics at max weight also with a 4.5g limit.
I have used a 7ECA Citabria for aerobatic training. A 5g airplane. Quite a few Citabrias are currently used by flying schools for aerobatic training.
Certainly a lower limit load factor is something to be wary of.
I regularly use a 150 hp Decathlon for aerobatic training and it is easily managed well below 4.5g in teaching basic aerobatics as well as solo use. My mechanic told me that its wing is not as robust as an Auster's so I treat it as if it is semi-aerobatic.

[Pilot DAR]

I support the view that even though an aircraft might be stressed for +4-2, that is not good for elementry aerobatic training. A very compotent pilot can fly aerobatics in an aircraft with that stressing, or indeed most GA aircraft (as has been demonstrated to me - I was once rolled in a C 185 amphibian!).

But, the errors and lack of precision of a new aerobatic pilot wil likely carry you into the more than +4 range from time to time, until technique is perfected. It's not worth the risk, when there are lots of "proper" aircraft out there. I know nothing about the specific aircraft mentioned, but my comment is intended toward all of these "middle" stressed aircraft.

The huge and sudden fear, which will come to the pilot, when he's buggered up a roll, and is pulling through at 4.5G and Vne, is not the time to worry about the strength of the airframe - ask me how I know! Worse when two are aboard, and you need even more G!

[Genghis the Engineer]

+4.5, but yes. I'll admit to getting a little uncomfortably close to N1/Vne on occasion whilst I was refining the POH advice for that individual aeroplane. Not an occupation for the faint hearted. And I was wearing a parachute (mandatory for aeros in my personal world view, but I do realise that this is not a universal view).

To be fair to it, for simple manoeuvres (loop, barrel, stall turn, spin), the Auster Aiglet is pretty benign and easy to fly well. For complex manoeuvres, it's just the wrong aeroplane anyhow (and frankly, I'm not Mr Porteous either).

I've only flown one other Auster, the Beagle Terrier, which I found much less enjoyable or well co-ordinated than the Aiglet - but how much of that is variation between types, and how much between airframes, I really don't know.

G

N.B. goldeneaglepilot, there's an alternative version I quite like: You can take an 'ore to thought, but you can't make 'er think.

[foxmoth]

I have aeroed the Auster - I would STRONGLY suggest he learns UP recovery first on another aircraft, fine, learn the aeros manouvers on the auster after, but IMHO you want something else to learn UPs on and that should be done first!
(managed to lose the plastic window on an Auster rolling it!)

[goldeneaglepilot]

G - your quote is much better than mine, I shall remember that.

I totally agree about the wearing of parachutes for aerobatics, its crazy not to have that insurance.

I think the overall point of this thread is that the Aiglet is capable of aerobatics, however for the novice it is an aeroplane that will creep upto Vne very quickly, especially if aerobatics have been messed up. All with the attendant risk of overstress due to panic to recover.

Something like a Bellanca or Citabria are much more tolerant in that respect so perhaps better suited to the initial hours of aerobatics for a non aerobatic pilot learning aerobatics for the first time.

[Genghis the Engineer]

Well, speaking to him this morning, he seems to have found somebody happy to teach him. Hope all goes well.

Interestingly, apparently one instructor he approached said he wouldn't be ready to learn aeros on his Auster until he had 200hrs on type. I'm naturally cautious - but that did strike me as a bit over-careful. (Presumably what was actually the case is that somebody just didn't want to do it and lacked sufficient backbone to say so straight.)

G

[PPRuNe Pop]

I had an Auster at one time that was stressed to +4 -2. I had also flown AOP Auster's but I think 'foxmoth' has put his finger on the point of UPs. The Auster is not an aeroplane for a novice to be doing aeros - 'cos it bites. It can flick unexpectedly but it is fun if flown correctly. The Porteous 'rule' was "know the thing before you try aeros." As Ghengis says loops, barrel rolls and a stall turn is OK - but the entry speed must be right.

But as he going to get someone who knows what he is doing with it, it should be OK.

[breakscrew]

I know that there is nothing to stop you doing aerobatics in an Auster, but why would you want to. It is a 40-50 year old aircraft with very dodgy handling characteristics at times. It also is an aircraft which you need to carefully manage the energy if you want to manoeuvre it with dash and elan. As a long time Auster pilot, I used to find a 'young' Slingsby Firefly to throw about the sky if I wanted to do aeros, with the confidence that I probably was not going to rip the wings off it.

[S-Works]

If it's the guy I think then you got a break Genghis. There are those prepared to be taught and those who think they know better.......

[Genghis the Engineer]

If it's the guy I think then you got a break Genghis. There are those prepared to be taught and those who think they know better.......

Probably is - I do know him quite well and test flew the aeroplane for its permit, but he can be a little difficult. That said, as a stick and rudder man, he's actually pretty good.

G