Oxford Radar

[crashfour]

Has anyone been interviewed for the radar controller jobs at Oxford yet? This is going to be a greenfield site new radar going in now I hear, looks intresting!

[BrATCO]

Oxford... ermmm... I heard that's the place around the World where the purest English phraseology is in use !

Or is it just English language in schools ?
Anyway, nothing else than a rumour... ;)

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Do ATC staff still get free coffee and clothing allowance I wonder?

[PhiltheReaper]

I believe, that all the ATCOs already in place at (London) Oxford are to be trained and validated on Radar. I'm no expert, but I haven't heard anything about new jobs there?

Phil

[crashfour]

Definately recruiting two new ATCOs and an ATCA. Getting busier all the time with commercial traffic, mainly business aviation, but they've got big ambitions for airline routes according to my sources.

[Danscowpie]

Having recently visited Oxford, I'm not entirely sure that the Airport Owners have really done their sums about the ongoing costs of running the facility and staffing it to make it cost effective and provide the best service for customers.
Trying to provide a seamless service is a nightmare.
We'll see where they are in 18 months time.

I hope it all goes well.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

<<all the ATCOs already in place at (London) Oxford are to be trained and validated on Radar>>

It's a bit more complex - they have to undergo an approved course of training and pass the appropriate exams for a radar rating. Then they have to validat the rating locally. It's not a 5-minute job and if they don't have the aptitude for radar.........

I'd go back for £100k plus all the coffee I could drink!!

[25check]

Another mega contract for NATS :}

[workwise]

Alot of work to be done to get radar up and running in time for the olympics.......:bored:

[BrATCO]

Took us almost 4 years to change from non-radar-procedures to radar vectoring in my previous APP/TWR.
Not only we had to train : most of us had been trained and qualified on radar before coming to this TWR.
Procedures with surrounding APPs, ACCs had to be created and tested first.

At the beginning, the radar system came in. We had no right to use it for vectoring : only surveillance.
Then procedures and training for radar vectoring on arrival only.
Finally, procedures and training for vectoring on departure.

I was about to forget : a new tower had to be build because the ancient wasn't fit for purpose. And the furniture had to be moved twice in the new one because the architect had placed us back to the runways. :ugh:

I guess things can be done much faster, but beware of doing things too fast for political/economical reasons : this kind of (too) fast decisions can lead the wingtip of a 380"super" straight in a building... don't want to figure what could happen airwise.

When is that London Olympic thing, again ?

[BrATCO]

They could be right : radar could be operational in summer 2011... End of summer is scheduled 21th of September this year. :E

But an operational radar (the screen with all the colors on it) doesn't mean you can control with it in real life with a real environment. I reckon "London-London" APP should be careful before validating LOAs with the new radar APP.
Environment in the vicinity seems to be complicated enough to avoid increasing complexity just because someone up-there in the hierarchy decided it had to be done the day before tomorrow. :=

[Jim59]

There was more information is their consultation document on CAS(T) for the Olympic Games - but as of today it is withdrawn. They were aimimg at 6 radar controllers.

[Danscowpie]

Does the new facility include SSR?

Even assuming they get enough qualified ATCOs (nowhere near 6 at the moment) and get everyone validated within 12 - 18 months - very unlikely for a "Greenfield start" - 6 is a pretty tight ship and nowhere near enough to even consider providing a seamless service for the airfield, never mind money earning stuff such as LARS (which is what they should be aiming for).

To even consider covering their current operating hours, never mind the demands which new commercial operators will demand, you need at least 5 radar atcos on duty each day of the week, (possibly less at weekends if commercial operations are fewer - commercial means serious revenue earning movements). A simple calculation using SCRATCOH regulations will make it all clear.

As I said, I don't think that the airport owners (or the management so delegated) have done their sums properly, if they don't currently have SSR (which commercial operators will press for), they should stand by for an eye watering quote from NATS or MOD for the nearest available feed.

[workwise]

Aiming at 6 radar atcos? possibly to begin with?, increase to 8-10 maybe!! ALOT of work to be done, if they believe that a sufficient number of Atcos would be fully up and running in 8-10 months, consolidated... in good time before the 'olympic rush'..mmm:confused:
As for SSR, think that is to be on-site rather than a very expensive feed.

[astir 8]

As Jim said, the CAA today announced IN-2011/66 "Withdrawal of Airspace Change Proposal - Oxford Airport"

Wonder where that leaves the ATC proposals?

[anotherthing]

Oxford ATC have done their homework... they will not be going into this with their eyes closed. There is a huge possibility that they will be offering an interim radar service before they get their own radar installed and working. They are fully aware that it will take time to get fully up and running... They have awarded a contract for installation and have the space in the existing building already earmarked (and probably cleared out by now). LARS is not a money-spinner, and the whole idea behind this radar installation is to afford some protection to Oxford traffic.

Radar need only be manned for scheduled IFR movements if that is what Oxford want to do... meaning the number of radar controllers is more than enough.

They know fully well how many ATCOs they need, they also know exactly how much of a service they will be able to provide with the numbers they are going to have. It is not exactly breaking new ground... other small airports have done it in the past. As the radar service develops, they will want to entice new customers and will build the provision with the traffic...

Instead of slating it, they should be applauded... there are too many airports operating in class G airspace that think it is acceptable that once off the airways structure, fee paying aircraft are left to fend for themselves in class G airspace.

As for the comment about the Olympic Airspace... it has nothing to do with the provision of a radar service from Oxford. After simulation it was agreed between NATS and Oxford that the airspace change originally applied for was not needed in its entirety and that it was possible to handle the Olympic traffic in a different way, meaning that some of the airspace could be 'handed back' to the GA community, which is in keeping with the whole attitude that, where able, the impact of the Olympics should be as little as possible on GA.

[2 sheds]

anotherthing - Well said, first sensible reply.

2 s

[Captain Smithy]

Danscowpie

The Oxford site will be Primary & Secondary.

Smithy

[soaringhigh650]

meaning that some of the airspace could be 'handed back' to the GA community, which is in keeping with the whole attitude that, where able, the impact of the Olympics should be as little as possible on GA.

I think it's time for people to stop thinking about about "CAT airspace" or "GA airspace" or "Military airspace". Airspace is to be shared and used by all.

This means not dividing it in a way (such as loads of Class A followed by loads of Class G) which keeps all users equally unhappy.

[Captain Smithy]

Well said sh650. If only everyone else could see it in that way though...

Smithy

[Danscowpie]

Radar need only be manned for scheduled IFR movements if that is what Oxford want to do... meaning the number of radar controllers is more than enough.


Anotherthing.
Total and utter nonsense.
This isn't the hotel industry where split shifts are the norm.
If a radar service is notified as available in the UKAIP, then it's available to all operators who wish to participate subject to coverage and unit constraints.
Thank God that the UK ATC service isn't run by you.:rolleyes:

Thanks for the info' re SSR Smithy.

It's great that SSR will be available, makes life much easier for all, but the annual cost makes the reason for going for LARS asap all the more sensible.
The SSR will cost about £35k per year, LARS on a 0800 - 1900, 7 day a week basis will bring in around £90k per year, but convincing those who make such decisions in the CAA and DAP is no easy task.

It isn't going to be an easy ride.

[Gonzo]

If a radar service is notified as available in the UKAIP, then it's available to all operators who wish to participate subject to coverage and unit constraints.

But if Oxford want to limit the hours of operation, or even cite; "As directed" then that's up to them, isn't it?

I also thought that the money in the LARS pot does not increase if a new unit takes on the task, that any new LARS unit will take money away from existing units.

[Danscowpie]

I also thought that the money in the LARS pot does not increase if a new unit takes on the task, that any new LARS unit will take money away from existing units.

Correct.

I don't think there's a MOD unit in the UK which provides LARS on a commercially viable basis, they do it because they have the equipment and staffing which they don't really need for the specific airfield use, but LARS does justify the written business case to the MOD Bean counters.
Most RAF LARS providers get more than their civillian counterparts for providing the same or a lesser service because they do so with more staff.
Bonkers I know, but at the moment, that's the way it works.

It makes sense that if Oxford could demonstrate that they have the capacity to offer LARS, they'd stand a very good chance of getting it and get much needed revenue from it.

It's up to them.

[anotherthing]

Danscowpie

Not tosh at all. Oxford can operate the service they want to with 6 ATCOs. Oxford will know exactly what fee paying flights there will be, and when. They can tailor services as per requirements quite legally; to quote you 'subject to unit constraints'.

There are many other small airports that operate this way, opening and closing radar, SRATCOH does not become an issue.

The owners of Oxford have big plans for the airfield; in the short term it will cost a lot of money but if their plans come to fruition then they should recoup it. They are in it for the long term, not some fly-by-night operation.

£90k for providing LARS is a tiny amount of money (and does not even get near to covering the ATCOs wages to provide the service hours you quote required to get that money), though obviously any income helps, in this case it would be a false economy. Money from LARS is usually an extra income brought about by using ATCOs already in the system... it is certainly not a viable commercial operation to train and pay ATCOs to give an 11 hours per day 7 days a week service.

The owners of the airfield are not exactly short of a penny or two...

soaringhhigh650


I think it's time for people to stop thinking about about "CAT airspace" or "GA airspace" or "Military airspace". Airspace is to be shared and used by all.
irrespective of what you think, there is class A airspace in the UK where VFR flight is not permitted. Due to requirements for the Olympics, Class G airspace can be re-classified without consultation by HMG decree for a limited period. This is what happened in the Oxford area, but as stated, a different way to deal with that particular traffic has been found thus the airspace will no longer be required, hence the phrase 'handed back'.

[controlx]

With the naysayers above, it does seem a bit off to have a go at what is an extraordinary step forward for a GA airport that's been around for 75 years in busy uncontrolled airspace. What other UK GA airport out there today would cough up £4m or so and pay the costs of running the primary and secondary radar to ensure a safer environment for all who travel to and through that zone? Yes, they have aspirations for some commercial stuff, but this is about protecting GA, by far the greatest users of that airspace. They should be commended for taking this huge step forward, at vast expense, to make the sky a little bit safer for all of us. It's doubtful that there will be a full, all day, every day service from the start, but a gradual stepping up of capability once all have the training, experiance etc. behind them. It's a progressive, forward-thinking airport spending a lot on infrastructure right through a period of economic doom since the new owners bought it in 2007. That said, some of the other key GA/regional airrports around London continue to spend large sums on enhancing their airrports too - thank goodness people are still spending money at these places.

[trafficnotsighted]

Controlx - Well said.

At the other end of the scale you have Plymouth Airport due to close at the end of the year (if there are enough staff to keep it open till then) due to the lack of investment over the years to keep it viable.

[Not Long Now]

It may well have a side effect of providing better safety for all who use the area, but let's not get too carried away here. This is not an altruistic act by Oxford to help it's beloved GA community, it is being driven fairly and squarely by the desire to attract and keep more biz jet, and possibly even further down the line, low cost, operators. If you want someone to provide a radar service purely for the benefit of non fee paying GA, I suggest Warren Buffet may be more likely. He seems to have money to burn, and indeed is partial to the odd billion dollar donation.

[anotherthing]

it is being driven fairly and squarely by the desire to attract and keep more biz jet, and possibly even further down the line, low cost, operators
Correct, with an equal emphasis on 'keeping'. They already have bizjet, and there already have been meetings where operators have expressed an interest in flying certain routes at certain time on certain days of the week in the near future.

Some operators may deem that the risk is too high for them to fly a couple of proposed routes, so will decide not to... So of course this radar installation is a business decision by the airport owners. They're not in it for an aviation safety award!!!

They know exactly what scheduled flights they want to afford protection to. The number of ATCOs that will have a radar ticket will be commensurate with that task initially. Should Oxford be succesful in attracting more business down the line, then they will beef up the service accordingly.

The plus side is that eventually there might be a real benefit to the general aviation community in terms of service available.
However it comes about, added safety in this part of the UK should be welcomed - it is an extremely busy area with quite a few 'incidents' weekly. The fact the 'incidents' happen in Class G i.e. 'see and avoid' means that what would be a very nasty airprox in controlled airspace is just 'what you can expect to get' in class G.

[Francis Frogbound]

As an Oxford based corporate pilot I'm delighted at the plans. Twenty five years ago when I was an OATS student radar would have been nice, with the growth in commercial IFR movements it is now essential. I've seen their plans and how they intend to pay for it and I have every confidence in them. The airport owners have invested a huge amount of money to encourage business, unlike some others who are waiting for the business to grow before spending anything.

Heathrow Director: they still get a clothing allowance and they are very generous with their coffee in the tower (well a warm brown drink anyway) and you would probably feel right back at home, apart from the lack of comical welshmen and sandal wearing controllers/engineers.

FF

[Barnaby the Bear]

Anotherthing.
Total and utter nonsense.
This isn't the hotel industry where split shifts are the norm.
If a radar service is notified as available in the UKAIP, then it's available to all operators who wish to participate subject to coverage and unit constraints.
Thank God that the UK ATC service isn't run by you.

Sorry Downscowpie, but if Oxford decide to only man the Radar during periods of their own Commercial traffic movements, that is entirely up to them.
If they are notified as a LARS provider during published times, then they would have to NOTAM any extended periods of closure.

Oxford are spending millions on this equipment for there own long term business plan to provide a more robust safety case for potential users, and fair play to them. Like it or not the UK is made up of 'Private Airfields'. They are not charities.