SVFR clearance for circuits

[off watch]

A question arising from another thread :
UK AIP ENR 1-2-1 extract -
2. Special VFR Flight
2.1 Clearance for Special VFR flight in the UK is an authorization by ATC for a pilot to fly within a Control Zone although he is unable to comply with IFR. In exceptional circumstances, requests for Special VFR flight may be granted for aircraft with an all-up-weight exceeding 5700 kg and capable of flight under IFR.
So what exceptional circumstances apply that allow a fully rated airline crew in their +5700kgs airliner to fly night circuits in a CTR at night with a SVFR clearance ?

[LXGB]

VERY good question ;)

[mad_jock]

Case 1.

You have already canceled IFR before departure because of a slot when its cavok and your flying in class G all the way.

The region airport in class G has purple airspace NOTAM'd just before your arrival.

When you get there auntie betty is running late its be extended on 121.5, your already below procedural approach altitudes.

Does the controller make you climb to 4k and make you do split arsed turn onto the procedure or give you a SVFR clearance for right base?

Case 2. Your doing a LPC at night and its curry time in the tower with something good on telly, there is no other traffic about, the clearance is "cleared SVFR for the training detail with blind radio calls, call ready for a landing clearance" From the other thread it was the last time I had a SVFR clearance in the UK. It made me and the TRE smile anyway.

[2 sheds]

mad_jock

We meet again...
So what exceptional circumstances apply that allow a fully rated airline crew in their +5700kgs airliner to fly night circuits in a CTR at night with a SVFR clearance ? None at all; the aircraft should be flying IFR with the surface in sight = semantics!

2 s

[mad_jock]

very correct 2 sheds :D

[throw a dyce]

North Sea Helicopters do night circuit training at EGPD.Night VMC base checks as the companies call it which require SVFR zone clearances.For the Tower controller they are a real pain to integrate with commercial IFR traffic on higher priority.No tellys allowed in that Tower.:hmm:

[off watch]

the aircraft should be flying IFR with the surface in sight
Which part of the Instrument Flight Rules covers that ?
If the MSA is 3000ft & the circuit height is 2000ft, what clearance should be issued ?
I get the feeling that this is one of those things that is fudged because procedures etc don't really cover this - like civil ATCO's giving military aircraft SVFR clearances :(

[2 sheds]

Which part of the Instrument Flight Rules covers that ?
In the UK, Rule 33.

what clearance should be issued ?
I would suggest "not above..." whatever maximum level the p-i-c requests. The MSA, as such, is irrelevant.

Nothing fudged about it at all.

What exactly is the problem with a civil ATCO giving a military aircraft a Special VFR clearance (which would be in a civil controlled CTR of course)? The request for clearance would originate from the pilot.

2 s

[off watch]

Thanks 2 sheds
I seem to recall being taught many years ago that the Military flew to JSP rules & regs so most of the ANO didn't apply. Particularly, they could fly VFR at night so SVFR separations wern't applicable - I wont be more specific about the fudge to protect the innocent ;)

[Geoff Fairless]

Off watch, my take would be that as the UK AIP is for pilots, it is advising them that normally they would plan IFR unless there are exceptional circumstances. However the AIP is not precluding such an operation because firstly it is not unsafe and secondly because it is impossible for the CAA to second guess every possible special circumstance that might occur. Naturally the controller does not need to ask the question because we are not policemen only separators.

[Sir George Cayley]

Rumour has it that under SERA the UK will introduce VFR at night.

Sir George Cayley

[Spitoon]

Rumour has it that under SERA the UK will introduce VFR at night.Not really a case of the the UK introducing it - if that's what the final published rules say, it will just be the law in the UK.

[Crazy Voyager]

If you don't mind me sidetracking a bit :O

Are there historic reasons for why VFR is not allowed during night in the UK? Have there been any studies or comparisons to other countries that do allow night-time VFR to see if there seems to be any diffrence?

Just curious, that's all :)

[Spitoon]

Are there historic reasons for why VFR is not allowed during night in the UK? Just a quirk of history, I think. Perhaps an unusual interpretation of the words in some rules at some point many years ago...the UK is good at that. In practice it makes little difference - it's pretty easy to bimble around in a light aircraft at night doing everything visually in the UK and still stay in complete compliance with the rules.

[Crazy Voyager]

Intresting, well I won't dig more into that right now, if (or perhaps, when) I want to know more I'll make a new topic.

Thanks for the answer :)