Non-Standard!

[VforVENDETTA]

Non-Standard! That most idiotic of stupid utterances one can make in the cockpit of an aircraft which seems to never go away at cx. It's a nasty habit of especially the checkers and checker wannabes. First of all exactly where the F'k does it say in any of our manuals that you can utter those words out of your butt and proceed to do something outside the sop, during normal operations? Is this an airline or a circus? The only thing more stupid to come out of a pilot's mouth may be the phrase "watch this"! And why are you surprised by my challenge and the conflict that ensues? Who's in charge of these non-standard checkers who see no problem with announcing out loud on the CVR that they intend to intentionally do something non-standard for the accident investigation to hang their hat on when something nasty happens?

The only thing consistent about this operation is the inconsistency.

[Dream Land]

Seems to prevalent throughout SE Asia, haven't heard it anywhere else.

[Capt Toss Parker]

Well when you're a sky GOD you can change the rules when ever you see fit :eek:

Try that on your command training and see how it fly's

[Steve the Pirate]

The use of the term "non-standard" is simply a part of communication. If you would normally, for example, select flap 2 before the gear but you decide it's more appropriate to do it the other way around, then the phrase would indicate to the other pilot that you haven't forgotten the flap. It just helps the PM know what you're thinking, to avoid any "conflict that might ensue" and for him to do what he's asked rather than entering a debate about whether the SOP states you should put the flap out first.

Conversely, instead of "non-standard", you could say, "I think we're a bit fast and with this tailwind/weight combination and with the prospect of the wind changing abruptly here as it often does in TPE, I think I'll take the gear before the flap, what do you think?"

No, on balance, I think non-standard sums it up nicely.

STP

[Ndicho Moja]

The only reason for uttering "Non standard" is if the fellow sitting next to you is blind.

[boocs]

It has been said b4... many yrs ago... W.Australia....

And agreed, one of the most useless terms I have ever come across.
b.

[figleaf]

Flexibility is the key to air power!

The Cathay 'stay in the box' mentality means to be flexible an announcement has to be made..

No other airline boasts of having "mouth music!"

[Flying Phoenix]

Listen, much of what we say in the cockpit is for a$$-covering (as much as anything else) in the unlikely event that something unfortold (sic) happens and the Company pulls the CVR tapes. We can argue until we are blue in the face about what should and shouldn't be said in the flight deck. At the end of the day who cares as long as the lines of communication are clear and effective. If one can't live with saying 'check', 'confirm(ed)' all day long then they are in the wrong job.

[EXEZY]

If we all know the standard way, then why verbalise that it's non standard, it's all a bit noddy. You would have to say "non standard, non standard, gear down", because the very act of saying non standard is by definition non standard. :}

[Cavallier]

"No other airline boasts of having "mouth music!"

So, so true. That is Cathay's problems in a nutshell!!!


The Cav:cool:

[el commandante]

I'm with Steve the Pirate with that one.

[sodapop]

Yo Vendetta boy, we have more hours in a left bank than you have total so how about:
http://pics.livejournal.com/twoflower/pic/00023gph

hope the cut and paste thing works.

[jed_thrust]

I'm with el commandante on this.

[nitpicker330]

Yep, stop bitching people, I'm agreeing with STP and Flying Phoenix.

It's not rocket science fellas and it does work.

Find something else to blame on your bad ERAS reports will ya, some of us cope with the system just fine as it is.

[Max Reheat]

I'm with STP on this one.

Now just waiting for cxorcist to blow it all out of the water with his exceptional reasoning!

[VforVENDETTA]

1) I have no problem uttering whatever word or phrase company puts in the manual as a "standard callout". I have no idea what mouth music is. Show me ONE place in any of our manuals the words "mouth music" are mentioned.

2) Show me ONE place in any of our manuals where it says "flaps 20, gear down, ..." (in that order) and I'll show you many places where it says "gear down, flaps 20, ..." (in that order). Are you ignorant of the sop, illiterate and can't read, or have you been doing it the non-standard way for so long that you actually think that your delusion is now reality? If you read the only book that mentions maneuver profiles (FCTM) it says "gear down, F20,..." both in profile and text, for all approach/landings. So according to the book, "F20, gear down" IS the non-standard way.

3) In our operation, overloading the PF at the cost of not overloading the PM is very obviously the main aim. As such, by announcing that you're about to do something unexpected is the best way to create confusion and overload for the PM and that goes against any positive aim "communication" is meant to achieve.

4) toss parker... "see how it fly's" !! Are you serious chap? Are you illiterate? You must be a checker. I have a nice collection of hilarious miss-spelling and miss-grammar mistakes in my permanent record by various cx checkers. They really should have a spell/grammar checker in the ERAS system for the essay writer wannabes among us. Or a writing class if you want to do it right. :ok:

And to be clear, I really don't give a sh!t how you do it or what you do. Airmanship, Scaremanship... whatever. The only thing consistent around here is inconsistency and we're all used to it. It's the moronic phrases people literally pull out of their a$$ that's beyond stupid and annoying.

[cxorcist]

Max,

Your wait is over, but I'm with you and STP on this one. I'll spare you the "exceptional reasoning" though :ok:. All I will write is that flying is mostly math and science, but still a bit of an art. With good airmanship and situational awareness, I appreciate and respect aerial artists.

CXorcist

[Steve the Pirate]

@Vfor

You're the one who started this thread so, clearly, you have thought about this travesty long and hard, otherwise, why the angst?

You say:

I have no idea what mouth music is. Show me ONE place in any of our manuals the words "mouth music" are mentioned. I would submit that the use of the phrase is commonplace in our profession and needs neither explanation nor verification of its usage. To suggest otherwise is simply pedanticism - something which you patently dislike.

However, you go on to say:

So according to the book, "F20, gear down" IS the non-standard way.I presume you are on one of the Boeing fleets due to your example but that in itself is immaterial. Whatever the case may be though, one of 2 things happen on your flights when you are PF, namely either:

a. You abide by convention and put the gear down after flap 20 (if that's the norm) or;

b. You put the gear down before flap 20, thus potentially causing confusion in the flight deck at a relatively low altitude, potentially leading to a "challenge and the conflict that might ensue" (I've paraphrased here for simplification) .

The latter is not an example of good airmanship in my humble opinion.

You go on to say:

3) In our operation, overloading the PF at the cost of not overloading the PM is very obviously the main aim. As such, by announcing that you're about to do something unexpected is the best way to create confusion and overload for the PM and that goes against any positive aim "communication" is meant to achieve. I disagree with this statement 100%.

Now I have to say, this one really tickled me. You accuse Toss Parker of being illiterate (which is debatable but that's not the point) and you yourself go on to say:

I have a nice collection of hilarious miss-spelling and miss-grammar mistakesNow, either you're a very funny person or you too have little grasp of the English language. "Miss-spelling" should be misspelling and there is no such term as "miss-grammar." I think what you were trying to say is "grammatical errors" (as you've so clearly demonstrated) but that's as may be.

Then you go on to say:

And to be clear, I really don't give a sh!t how you do it or what you doIf that is indeed the case, then what's the point of this thread?

Finally you say:

It's the moronic phrases people literally (my highlighting) pull out of their a$$ that's beyond stupid and annoying.When you say "literally" do you mean that before someone says, for sake of discussion, "non-standard" that they actually pull those phrases from their anuses, as one might from a fortune cookie, or are you using hyperbole?

STP

[Neptunus Rex]

Steve the Pirate

My hero!

[Study Bunny]

Why does this remind me of George Orwell's 1984 and newspeak? We are doublethink the problem here. No time for that here. Just do your job and no thoughtcrime will be committed.

[Oval3Holer]

I laughed my ass off (not literally) at this thread! It highlights lots of good points, despite the bickering. The gear down, flaps 20 one is interesting, as the books DO state that that's the order to do things.

Regarding "fly's," I think it has to do with Toss Parker's age. It seems that the education system (of lack of it) has encouraged (or rather not DIScouraged) people to pluralize words with an apostrophe rather than an "s" or "es."

Toss must be a youngster or just as illiterate as those people who put the letters on the street signs at gas stations, hardware stores and fast-food joints.

[moosp]

It's not pluralisation, it's Asia. "Would you like fruits?"

Flap, flaps, same deal. :E

Or the casual statement as the runway goes under the nose, "Would you like some flaps, horse??" Simply implying more than One, and that 30 would be a good idea...

I was always a fan of the captain who carried a US quarter in his nav bag. Whenever the conversation turned to these nit picking ideas, he offered it to the guilty party to go phone someone who gave a f**k. And he was T&C

[Rice power]

In summation, Oarsome Steve.
Oops !