Ryanair Scam!!

[SkyGuy]

What the hell is going on when an airline makes you pay for an apliation form! Not only do they charge for this but also the interview, sim ride and type rating. I know that there are pilots out there willing to pay for this but these select few are ruining it for us all!!!! <img src="mad.gif" border="0">

[twistedenginestarter]

Welcome to capitalism. It's not a pretty sight but apparently it's the best option - or so we're told. <img src="cool.gif" border="0">

[scroggs]

twisted if you're suggesting that Ryanair is representative of all airlines in the capitalist world, you're way off the mark, mate!. .Ryanair is building up a dam of resentment and ill-feeling that will surely burst when the market starts to free up. In the meantime, they are exploiting the Wannabe fraternity ruthlessly, with charges for application, interview, simulator assessment, and training, and then restricted pay on employment! Frankly, I'd rather work in MacD's - at least you get free food!

[Rowley]

MOLhttp://www.stopstart.btinternet.co.uk/sm/moon.gif

[easymoney]

Has anyone applied online yet and payed the rediculous application fee? I did, in one of my minutes of madness, but as of yet not received any form of acknoledgement.

Q. Are they actually getting back to people, or are they just taking our hard earned cash?

[phantom01]

how much are they charging??? <img src="eek.gif" border="0"> <img src="eek.gif" border="0">

[easymoney]

The Ryans are charging £50 stg just for the privaledge of apllying to them, then £150 stg for the sim ride, then £15,000 for the 737 type rating, and finally pocket money for wages if your lucky enough to get accepted. It's all on their website.

[climbs like a dog]

And they reckon it's cutting out a lot of CV's that they no longer receive from pilots they'll never employ - ie those without a 737 type-rating in the first place. More than just a slightly bad attitude but it certainly isn't a sellers market out there. Btw, they've never really been into taking people on as a first job, so you're not missing out on much.

They may be building up a dam of resentment amongst the wannabe community but remember that in good times, whenever they employ a 737 rated pilot or even one with some previous experience, another vacancy opens up further down the line, which may just get you your first job.

Good luck

[farrenfour]

its economics, not very honourable economics but economics nonetheless, supply and demand springs to mind.

Sure it sux, but you do get 737 hoop-la time, and when the market picks up you can leave... <img src="smile.gif" border="0">

I recall talking to a Ryanair FO in '96 who was delighted at the arrival of the new Ryanair airbuses next year, well they musta got lost cos leprechaun O'Reilly is going to fly the 737's until they fall apart, I think it's called zero depreciation curve...what a t**l.

F4

"oops , its never done that before ??? "

[Mindthegap]

Actually what MOL doesn´t realize is that in a few months...a year or two, when things pick up again, alot (and I mean ALOT) of pilots are going to leave. And what does that mean. Of course he say´s there will be many pilots who will be out there, but not with enough experience to become capt. Now this is a dilemma. Too many FO´s but no Capt. It seems to me that he has shot himself in the foot, especially with the ones recruited after sept. 11. What happens then ... No 25 % expansion each year, No new sectors, No new bases, etc... What I want to know is if things will start to pick up thiis year will he restore sectorpayments back or what( this is suppose to be answered by Theflyingirishman which does seem to know things from the inside). .Any comments?

[Mister Gash]

The website promises a confirmation of receipt of your application within five days. I’d suggest that if you don’t receive this confirmation, have your credit card company cancel the payment.

I know a couple of people who went into FR five years ago with very little experience and both are now captains, flying their ar$es off and earning good salaries. Doesn’t seem to bad to me!

Gash

[pottster]

I appreciate the problem of having to pay to have your application read and for the interview/simulator, especially when they can then turn around and say thanks but no thanks. My problem is this:

- As a new License holder if I don’t go for schemes like this how do I keep current? How do I build the multi engine and multi crew hours required by the other carriers and perhaps just as important how do I achieve the 500 hours multi crew time needed to un-freeze my ATPL? If there is an alternative please let me know.

Even if the pay is reduced at the moment it is still better than temping pay and you still build time on a 737. Surely this is better than nothing. Also if the trade picks up the pay will have to improve for retention reasons. If people do leave then time to command must reduce, not only are you now building 737 time you are doing it in the left hand seat.

Please tell me – am I being irrational or do I have a bit of a point.

I would like to know more about the rest of the employment contract not included on the web site. I remember seeing some snippets of it on a post a while back.

[g92]

When you say 'reduced pay' how much is this? I also would love to hear what the F/O's say which is not on there web site.. .Ta

[RVR800]

They must be DESPERATE for CASH at Ryanair.. .Or is it just the way things are going?

The PR implications of this scam will, as. .Scroggs rightly points out, only become . .manifest when the market picks up.

People will vote with their feet..

The contast between BA who stump up. .£100,000 to train cadets and this airline. .who are not investing in any pilot training. .is interesting. In fact they expect pilots to pay them.

Where will this trend take us ? It may be that. .as has happened in the US one is expected to pay some low cost carriers for the priviledge of a job ultimately? Build Turbine time for X dollars etc....

It all makes for cheap seats for Jo Bloggs. .on a lads weekend in AMS I suppose - its . .a form of subsidy...

The whole thing relies on pilots obsession . .with the pursuit of their career...

[GonvilleBromhead]

Love them or loathe them, have you checked out the latest on R&N, 100 new aircaft (reportedly) on order from Boeing between now and 2010, estimating the need for a further 800 pilots.

I'd cautiously say it has to be a good sign for the industry, if nothing else to generate interest amongst the competitors regarding expansion.

Any good news has to be welcome, maybe albeit cautiously at this stage.

[SkyGuy]

Let me clarify my original point, Of course it is good news that an airline is expanding and wanting to hire new pilots, BUT airlines know that there are guys willing to fly for food and water and these guys that are wanting to jump the que (Pottster) are ruining it for the vast majority with that attitude.

Is it right that an airline is doing this = NO.

Is it right that there are guys willing to pay for this = NO

Let us all remember we are Professional ie Airlines pay for our professional skills it should not and must not work the other way!!!! <img src="mad.gif" border="0"> <img src="mad.gif" border="0">

[pottster]

If that is your attitude Sky Guy then I may well be served a big Mac by you one day! It is all very well moaning about things but at the end of the day if you want a job you have to do something about it. I can't afford to sit around for a couple of years paying to keep myself current, can you? I don't believe I am jumping the line, indeed I have not decided whether or not to apply yet. I am just looking for a way to get ahead. Nobody is going to come and offer me a job because I boycott Ryanair!

Also although the wages have dropped and you have to pay for the rating, I still don't consider £30-35 k as me paying to fly!!! It would certainly start to pay some of my debts off.

[MAX]

15k for the typre rating. Latest rumour is 25k if your future is on the -800 series. They may be making money on your typre rating? Sign a contract guaranteeing only 50 sectors and you'll see no sector pay for those 50. A friend has 5 to go and still no sign of a 'new' contract. Be very carefull what you wish for...

MAX <img src="cool.gif" border="0">

[paco]

While not necessarily agreeing with Ryanair, just trying to widen up the discussion....

Why should an airline pay for your type rating, training, etc when you're going to leave anyway? Asking for application fees is quite common in the USA where there is *zero* loyalty to the company (granted, it goes both ways).

This is an eternal dilemma. What is a humane way to bond people to the company for a couple of years so there's a sporting chance of getting the money back? I remember having to do two years for my IR way back when, but there was no enforceable contract.

What do the panel think?

phil

[spitfire747]

I neither agree or dis-agree with the posts on this topic, but I do know one thing:

When i get to the point of having my CPL/IR, Flying makes me happy, I love it, so as long as i would have enough pay to cover my food and rent I would be over the moon

[Airbus A320]

Well, it may change in the near future (again) as I've just heard that Ryanair has just ordered 100 new aircraft with options for 75 more. I have no doubt that most of the people who are training for ATPL / CPL / Ir just now will be employed by airlines such as easyJet, Ryanair and Go (and possibly even bmiBaby, the new bmi low cost airline) in the near future

[SkyGuy]

pottsterI already have an airline job with which i got a FREE interview ,FREE sim ride and FREE type rating...Ok i am bonded which is and should be the norm for the time being until desperate guys like yourself ruin this. If other airlines adopt this scam which they will if they think pilots out there are willing to pay then guys like yourself are your own worst enemy.. .I assume you have worked hard and paid a lot of money to become a pilot so dont let airlines like this take the p***.. .You would be better to spend £50 on 3 mins in a seneca than to give your cash to Ryanair.. .Oh!!pottsterI'll have a big mac and large fries while you wait for your interview with Ryanair :) :)

[scroggs]

No one is jumping the queue by taking a job with Ryanair, nor are they depriving others of a job. Ryanair's flirtation with their current unsavoury tactics will not last once they need pilots more than pilots need them - which could happen very soon! . .They will very quickly discover that those who joined under the current terms will leave when things get better elsewhere, as they will, and those that didn't apply then never will. With 800 new pilots required, that could give them a problem... .SkyGuy, get off your soapbox. Pottster hasn't done anything to affect your terms of service wherever you are lucky enough to work, and we all have to earn a crust. Just watch him and others queue up to leave in a couple of years' time.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Hmmm, I have mixed feelings about this whole thing. On the one hand its great that Ryan are expanding the actual market for aviation. It means more jobs for you and I.

On the other I dislike their fee based selection and training system. If I were a businessman though I guess it makes sense at the moment.

I actually doubt that they will get their fingers burnt over this - although a lot of people disagree with me who have a lot more experience in the industry... MOL very rapidly brought in the £25,000 type rating, reduced pay and pay for application/selection/sim/uniform etc. He could just as rapidly removed those costs.

There is very little corporate inertia in Ryan.

The moment applications start to wane MOL will be offering some stupendous deal such as the £100,000 Captains salary plus share options that was being trumpeted only 2 years ago. MOL gets great productivity out of pilots and the company earns serious money. If he needs to he has plenty of scope to put together great pilot pay packages.

The fact is at the moment he does not have to. Although the Ryan pay is pretty good when I look at friends pay packets who work for them...

Its a noble idea that the pilot community will remember the travesity of the current injustice with Ryan recruiting. I just feel that people have short memories, they like bases and lifestyle more than ethics, Ryans pay is fine and if they dangle a shiny new 738 NG in your face you will be hard pushed to turn them down.

The issue of lacking Captains is a valid point. FO's are ten a penny true enough but under IAA MOL only needs 3,000hrs and nearly all the low time guys will have this by the time they are in any position bond wise to leave FRA. Turn down an imminent command to go to the bottom of a FO seniority lise elsewhere? Probably not for a lot a people.

For the rest he can afford to pay big bucks from the money he has saved screwing people in the lean years (now).

Lets face it. 5 on 3 off in a 738 working for a successful airline on a total package of circa £100k IS going to get MOL a workable number of LHS chaps.

I don't like what MOL is doing, I do not wish to work for Ryan but I do think they know exactly what they are doing.

Perhaps IAA harmonisation with JAA will change the way FRA are allowed to operate and this will level the playing field somewhat. Nevertheless, full respect to a man and company that shifted immigrant Irish labour from SE England back home for a cheap price only to become the largest most successful fastest growing airline in Europe.

WWW

[GonvilleBromhead]

Agree with WWW.

MOL might not be the noblest of business men, but he is certainly shrewd.

Arrogant, cocky, flippant etc, but he knows the market. And like it or not, he holds the cards in what is currently (not always, but currently) a recruiters market. Fact of life.

We may not like it, but that is the reality at the moment. And at times like this, if Ryan are offering (potential) employment to pilots, then they can pretty much set the terms and conditions. If it was a choice between applying to Ryan (assuming you're not a timewaster) and going on the dole or a non-flying job, I think the vast majority would plump for Ryan, at least I would hope so.

It may stink, it may not be the way "things are done", but at this point in time, he can.

I also believe that this will not turn around and bite them on the ass in better times for the same reasons as WWW. Short memories, rising in seniority, inertia, comfort zone, call it what you will, you may get a few disgruntled guys moving on, but how is that different to not only other airlines, but any other employer you can think of ?

He ain't thick fellas, he is probably only too aware of the feelings amongst the pilot / wannabee communities, and when it suits, he will up the rewards / package to whatever it takes to maintain growth for Ryan, until then, it's their ball, they decide how to play.

For the record I don't like it but that's the reality.

[twistedenginestarter]

I remember when I joined PPRuNe many years ago that it seemed am oasis of calm compared to the American bulletin boards where vitriol was flying about non-stop and the lingua franca was not English but Anglo-Saxon.

The main cause of this was PFT - Pay for Training.

Same sentiments - "Why are you all giving in???" "We'll get our revenge, one day" etc

As we have discussed before, this channel shows there are a lot of people who want to fly at any cost. If I owned an airline I would pay the pilots next to nothing.

Watch out it might easily get worse.

[SkyGuy]

Well said WWW. My main point is that we as pilots are on a slippery slope with this type of recruitment if other airlines see it to be working.. .I wish Ryanair luck esp in the current climate, but i have heard about lots of guys and gals paying for the application form and hearing nothing, is this just a licence to print money??

[muppet]

NO.

. .We have to draw the line.....somewhere.

. .This is it.

[SOHCAHTOA]

<img src="eek.gif" border="0"> . .Pay for an application form!!!

Cannt be legal...???

This industry becomes more f@#*d up every week.. .Some people may admire his business skills but at the end of the day it comes down to one thing...he's a tw@t. And it will come round and bite him in the arse one day.

[ 26 January 2002: Message edited by: SOHCAHTOA ]</p>

[liverbird]

IVE JUST GOT ONE THING TO SAY TO YOU ALL. AND THAT IS STAY AWAY FROM RYANAIR. JUST DONT GO THERE BOYFRIEND AND GIRLFRIENDS.THEY ARE TAKING THE P*SS. WE ALL SHOULD SEND THEM REALLY NASTY EMAILS. ON WHY WE ARE NOT GOING TO INVOLVE ARE SELFS WITH THEM...AND ALSO LET THEM KNOW THAT WE WILL NOT TAKE THEIR CR*P, AND WILL BE INFORMING THE THE NEWS PAPERS, AND SHOWS LIKE. WATCHDOG WHICH MR RYANAIR LOVES TO HATE. JUST LET THE PUBLIC KNOW.. ARE YOU ALL WITH ME.

<img src="eek.gif" border="0"> <img src="eek.gif" border="0"> <img src="eek.gif" border="0"> <img src="eek.gif" border="0">

[paco]

Hey, don't shout..... it was a hard night! <img src="smile.gif" border="0">

Phil

[SkyGuy]

It looks like pprune agree with this type of recruitment just looking at the pop up at the top of the screen. COME ON PPRUNE WHAT ARE YOU DOING!!!!!!!! <img src="mad.gif" border="0"> <img src="mad.gif" border="0"> <img src="mad.gif" border="0">

[climbs like a dog]

Looks like liverbird had too much to drink that night. I think you'll find most pilots get their jobs with a free interview, although didn't British Midland charge an assessment fee for the initial psychometric testing at one stage? I could be wrong. Certainly had to pay nothing for the current job <img src="smile.gif" border="0">

It is morally wrong but MOL wouldn't have been able to do this this time last year.

Regarding earlier posts about what to do to gain experience, unfreeze ATPL's etc, is get flying anyway you can, instructing, aerotowing, photoship, whatever. You do not need a full ATPL to go RHS in a 2 crew aircraft. You should already have a frozen ATPL which is sufficient so what's the problem?

Spitfire747. .Fly for food. Really? <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0"> That's not correct (or shouldn't be). You'll have spent a small fortune getting those ratings and I know that you want to fly for a living soooo soooo much. Been there myself. But I bet once you get your first airline job you'll be worrying about your pay, terms and conditions, rostering and all the other stuff attendant to airline flying that pilots whine about, despite it being the bestest job in the whole wide world. Why? Because it's human nature.. .You shouldn't sell yourself short.

Regards

[ 26 January 2002: Message edited by: climbs like a dog ]</p>

[MorningGlory]

'.......and they say the Irish are stupid?'

Must admit though, viewing figures for Watchdog would soar so to speak! But I really don't think the public would give two hoots about this, it's only us guys/gals that are concerned about it.

[mutt]

It appears that Ryanair have started a trend, this is from the Astraeus advertisement.

There are some commitments we require from the final five candidates that successfully pass all the stages. As we stated earlier, the funding of the 737 type-rating comes from Astraeus paying our Training Company, Bond Aviation Solutions, a standard Junior First Officer six month's salary.

To protect ourselves from the cost of anyone being unable to complete the type-rating course we would expect the candidate to put up £6,000 of his or her own funds to be held in a separate account. After successfully completing the type rating course and having started line training the candidate will receive the £6,000 back at the rate of £1,000 a month into their bank account. In the unlikely event that a candidate fails to complete the type-rating course successfully they may be liable to forfeit some or all of the £6,000 on deposit.

After the completion of six months line flying, should the candidate not be offered a permanent contract of employment they will be free to take the qualification and experience elsewhere and will not owe anything for their training. This, we believe, is what makes the PPRuNe Career Development Scheme unique in our industry.

This initial strategy has minimum impact on the PPRuNe Fund and its limited resources enabling us to carry on with our plans for a broader Career Development Scheme aimed at those not yet fully qualified. We would therefore expect the successful candidates to put something back into the fund.

The successful candidate will have to agree that once they have a permanent contract of employment as a pilot they will pay back to the PPRuNe Fund, over a period of three years, a total sum of £3,000. This money will be put to use helping other wannabes to follow in their footsteps, acknowledging the first step on the pilot job ladder that the PPRuNe Fund gave them.

[Hamrah]

Mutt,

Nothing like taking things out of context eh.

The PPRuNe scheme is designed to allow a number of people to get a 737 rating and six months experience on type at no cost to the individual.

The Training bond is repaid, provided they successfully complete their course. Thats called risk sharing.

The quote you elected to put on this thread refers to the PPRuNe scheme.

Astraeus does not charge for online recruitment, interview or selection for permanent positions with the airline.

[ 28 January 2002: Message edited by: Hamrah ]</p>

[pottster]

So does this scheme still exist? Where can you find details?

[scroggs]

Pottster. .Check the top of this page! This scheme is brand new, and has been produced after some very hard work by some of Pprune's senior folks who are now involved with Astraeus. The scheme is a tremendous way for Ppruners to get a shot at a 737 rating and the possibility of employment while contributing to the Pprune fund in order to help those who come after them.. .For those who would suggest thst this bears any relation to Ryanair's fleecing of Wannabes, don't let me hear you say that within my earshot. Your facial features may be substantially rearranged - at no financial cost to you!. .As for Ryanair's ads on Pprune - their tactics, while distasteful, are legal. At a time of extreme shortage of aviation employment opportunities, would it be fair of Pprune to deny folks the opportunity to judge Ryanair for themselves? Not to mention the fact that the charges for their ads help to keep this whole site here for your edification. It's your choice whether you click on the ads.....

[interested]

Scroggs

It seems on the face of it that the PPRuNe scheme is well intended by those at 'the towers'.

However, in the interests of equity, how do you justify saying: [quote]would it be fair of Pprune to deny folks the opportunity to judge Ryanair for themselves?<hr></blockquote> in almost the same breath as you threaten to rearrange the features of anyone suggesting there might be some comparison between the (apparently legal) actions of Ryanair and the PPRuNe/Astraeus scheme? <img src="confused.gif" border="0">

[scroggs]

[b]Interested[/b}. .I don't understand your point. Are you suggesting that, though legal, we should censor Ryanair's ads? What would that achieve? And in what way is my (tongue-in-cheek) threat to those who would equate the Pprune scheme to Ryanair's 'inequitable'?. .To be fair (i.e. equitable) both schemes should be publicly available for Ppruners to scrutinise. If, having done so, you would find any similarities between the two schemes (other than that they involve 737 ratings), I, and others, would be intrigued to hear your reasoning <img src="eek.gif" border="0">

[SkyGuy]

The only thumbs up on this topic go to pprune. This scheme is totally different to the one on offer at Ryanair.. .Pprune are offering a unique scheme to introduce guys into the cockpit of a 737, And you only pay once you have been selected, then you have a choice do i, or dont i..... .Where as Ryanair are charging for the initial application.. .I think this scheme is very similar to the one on offer at ATP or CTC which has put lots of guys in the right hand seat of a jets.. .Take it and run with it........ <img src="smile.gif" border="0">

[Capt PPRuNe]

Before too many people jump to the wrong conclusions, the PPRuNe Career Development Scheme is just one way we are trying to help newly licenced but inexperienced pilots to get a foothold in the airline job market. This is not a recruitment ploy and Astraeus could have selected ALL their F/Os from the large pool of experienced jet rated pilots who are now looking for jobs. Instead they have decided that this is an opportunity to invest in the future.

PPRuNe has been invited to take part in this exercise and we have decided that it is a good use of the PPRuNe Fund to cover a small part of the costs. In the long term we expect a return on our investment. As mentioned above, there is a risk sharing element but we are confident that the final five applicants who are selected and accept the offer will be able to get through the course. They will gain valuable experience and will be flying with some of best training captains in the industry.

On the issue of Ryanair charging for their recruitment process, they are doing nothing illegal. If you bother to actually read what they say on their website you will see that everything is up front. You have a choice if you have read their web page to either apply or not to apply. They are being very shrewd by doing this because it cuts down on the number of applications and CVs they have to deal with and it is their interpretation of being 'low cost'. If you have a 737 type rating then you can make the decision to apply. If you don't then you know what it will cost if you do apply and are successful.

Once the business picks up again, and it will, and demand for pilots picks up then you will possibly find that their recruitment process changes. It's called market forces. In the meantime, if you have a new licence and no experience you are probably wasting your money if you apply but you have a choice. It is not a scam.

The five lucky people who are offered a B737 Type rating and 6 months line experience with Astraeus may be lucky enough to be offered a permanent contract if the business is there for the winter. If it isn't then at least they have the option of hawking their skills to other operators who may be able to give them work. They could even apply to Ryanair and save themselves £15K!!! Just remember that you have a choice even though you are not happy about all the options.

[ 28 January 2002: Message edited by: Capt PPRuNe ]</p>

[interested]

Scroggs . . . .Obviously, I do not suggest that Ryanair's ads should be censored. My point is simply that, in the interests of fairness, free discourse on either of the schemes should be encouraged. Such discourse may well be of some benefit to the administrators of the PPRuNe scheme which is, after all, new and innovative.

I note the comments above by the Skipper and I certainly take on board his clear support for the PPRuNe scheme (though I am a little concerned by comment such as “some of the best training captains in the industry” – surely a very subjective comment at best?).

As a moderator, your (tongue-in-cheek) threat to those who make comparisons between the Pprune and Ryanair schemes appears to be an attempt to stifle freedom of speech. Clearly, both schemes are already publicly available for Ppruners to scrutinise. And it seems there are certainly similarities (beyond 737 ratings) and comparisons to be made. What is wrong with letting us discuss them without threats to alter facial features? <img src="confused.gif" border="0">

[scroggs]

Interested,. .Lighten up, me old, eh? I have never suggested that we don't discuss anything. I do, however, object to the implication that the Ryanair and Pprune schemes are both of the same nature. They are not.. .For all those who attempt the Ryanair route, good luck to you. Just don't expect such a financially ruthless employer to be nice to you!

[schwabn]

To be honest, I think Ryanair have started a trend here that many other airlines will pick up. From an airline's point of view, it stops timewasters applying and they have the cadet's money in case things go wrong. It also prevents the cadets from getting free training and then wondering off somewhere else.

Wait and see which airline is to follow next, apparently this procedure is already customary in the USA.

[interested]

Scroggs, me old china

Perhaps it is fair to say that the Ryanair and Pprune schemes have one or two things in common. Yes, they both seem to offer a 737 type rating; they both require a pilot applicant to put hands in pockets; and they both presumably require a training bond in some amount.

Acknowledging that the Pprune scheme seems the more equitable, there are one or two statements on the Astraeus site that seem contradictory and, perhaps, less than accurate.

For example, I find the claim that the scheme represents no cost saving to Astraeus somewhat difficult to swallow. Surely, it at least provides legal manning of a flightdeck at minimal cost for some six months without the airline being bound to the employee by a long-term contract? Of course, there is nowt wrong with that, of itself, but why suggest there is no financial benefit to Astraeus? Elsewhere on the site it makes the point that the scheme is in the interests of Astraeus, which seems to contradict the above claim.

The Skipper points to the fact that Astraeus is free to hire from the present, type rated, workforce. True again, of course, but, were it to do so, it would surely find the type rated F/O far more expensive to hire and perhaps unwilling to commit for only six months. In any event, even the type rated must be trained and tested to some degree, and this at an unrecoverable cost to the airline.

I was very keen to make an application, and found I was 'returned to Pprune' rather than directed to the application form merely because my IR has lapsed. I do not think Hamrah's assertion that this would make the sim assessment problematic is an equitable reason for complete exclusion from the scheme - surely a talented individual (and hopefully you would wish to find some such among the applicants) may well pass the assessment without a current IR.

All things considered, I think there are some rather rough edges to be knocked off at least the presentation of this scheme. Nonetheless, I wish anyone who does apply all the very best. It is clear, though, that the financially flush are more likely to be offered one of the initial five places than any talented, but impecunious, aspirant. Was that truly the intention of the scheme's creators? If not, then back to the drawing board. <img src="smile.gif" border="0">

Finally, I would point to the fact that Ryanair is probably no more and no less a 'financially ruthless employer' than any other in today's environment. :)

[ 28 January 2002: Message edited by: interested ]</p>

[DiverDriver]

Has one or two posts from this thread been deleted today, only I thought I saw (a puddy cat) no a question relating to the Astreaus application requirement with regard to the need for a current IR. The context of the question was that if your IR was current and you were exercising the privileges regularly (Oh err) then the sim ride would be less problematic that it would be if you had an IR but were not current in IFR flight. The questioner was simply asking if that were the case then the Pprune scheme is not assisting the wannabe looking for his first RHS but more the wantmorebe i.e. the person already established on the lower rungs of commercial avaiation. . .In my defence I have no problems either way and if I hade the remaining 6 exams the CPL and the IR I’d be applying too. Ho Hum back to the studies. <img src="frown.gif" border="0"> <img src="frown.gif" border="0"> . .I just thought that this was a valid question, and deserved and answer from Pprune or Astreaus. Good luck to all those that apply. DD

[PPRuNe Towers]

DiverDriver, the posts you're thinking of are actually alive, well and in the other thread.

If you think already working in the 'lower rungs' of aviation is what helps try seeing how far you get with the initial application form. This really is for that first job in the industry.

Finally, is there some kind soul who can link us to the thread from some months ago where a wannabee, with extreme honesty, describes how a jet sim assessment went while not truly current.

I ask this as some of the readership seem unable to accept advice on currency from trainers who have genuinely assessed hundreds of candidates in recent years.

[ 28 January 2002: Message edited by: PPRuNe Towers ]</p>

[DiverDriver]

No problem Mr Towers I was just interested to know, as there hadn’t be a response to the question, but then again there still hasn’t been. Just how is a guy who isn’t flying hands on IFR regularly (i.e. 6 month qualified ATPL applicant with 200 hrs but not flown since) going to get on against someone currently working IFR (air taxi for example). Its just a question – I’m not looking to get flamed here. Regards DD

[Hamrah]

There is an answer to the question on the other thread.

[interested]

Yes, let's be fair here. On the other thread, Hamrah said [quote]If, during the early phases of selection you could demonstrate that you have an IR, that you have been actively using the IR, and that you have booked a renewal, then it would be worth your time applying. However, if you have not been actively flying in Instrument conditions, the sim assessment would be a very difficult challenge indeed.<hr></blockquote>Hamrah, this suggests that you, at least, seem to be prepared to give someone who does not actually have a current IR, but is recent and has booked a renewal, the chance for assessment. But how does that person access the application form when his/her truthful answer to the question "do you have a current IR" is NO? Perhaps the question might be rephrased to read "Do you have recent IR currency" or some such? Then, an honest and positive answer would still facilitate an application. <img src="confused.gif" border="0">

[ 29 January 2002: Message edited by: interested ]</p>

[Capt PPRuNe]

Unfortunately for some pilots there will always be some criteria that will make them inelligible to apply the scheme. Certain criteria have to be fulfilled and if you do not meet them it's unfortunate but even if you do, there is still a review process, the interviews/group-exercises and then the sim assessment itself.

All the requirements are there on the website and the questions we ask are used to determine eligibility. I will repeat them here for clarification: [quote]To be eligible for consideration for acceptance to the first stage of the application process you must be able to answer yes to the following questions:

1. Do you hold a valid and current CAA or JAA frozen ATPL?. .2. Is your Instrument Rating current?. .3. Do you have the right to live and work in the EEC?. .4. Can you be available to start a type-rating course by April 2002?. .5. Do you speak and understand English fluently?. .6. Are you computer literate?. .7. Do you have a full drivers licence?

. .If you can honestly answer yes to all the above questions you may proceed to the first stage of the application where you will confirm your answers to the above questions and answer a few additional, simple questions that are not critical to the application process.<hr></blockquote>

I don't know which part of question #2 is not clear but if you then proceeded to the first stage and then found that you were returned to the PPRuNe page after you answer the questions then you should not be so suprised. [quote]If, when you press the 'apply' button, you get delivered to PPRuNe it's because you have not met our minim requirements to be eligible for our B737 type rating course - and in that event we wish you well for the future and thank you for your interest.<hr></blockquote>

I can appreciate how frustrating it must be for some of you. We have spent a lot of our time preparing for this and trying to get it right. We decided to set those minimum criteria and if you have let you IR lapse then you cannot blame us for that. Even some of those with a current IR may not be able to pass the sim assessment.

Plese stop trying to compare this to the Ryanair pilot application process. We are not charging anyone for filling in the application, being interviewed or being assessed in the sim. The nominal amount we ask the successful applicants to put into an account is purely a part of the risk shareing we expect. This costing the PPRuNe Fund a large chunk of its limited resources. All the money that the successful candidate puts up is returned to them as long as they complete the course and complete their contract. The £3,000 we ask them to pay back to the PPRuNe fund over 3 years after they gain permanent employment is the return on our investment. It is not a huge amount and will go to help funding other schemes that we plan to have.

For those of you who are eligible or are not sure and would like to chat to us we will be holding a live 'chat' session on Wednesday 30th between 2000 and 2200. There will be a seperate chat room set up and you can fire away. We will do what we can to help but make no promises. Everyone has to be able to complete the forms.

[scroggs]

Interested. .some good points here, but I think you play Devil's advocate somewhat. I don't have a problem with that - I do it myself more than a little, but I don't want the enjoyment of the argument to take away from the real, tangible benefits of the Astraeus scheme. There may well be some points of presentation that could do with a revisit, but I have no influence over that.. .Please understand that the PPrune/Astraeus scheme is the nearest that we believe can be achieved, in the real commercial world, to an ideal that we've been chasing after for some time. That is, a professional pilot training and employment scheme that disadvantages neither the employer nor the trainee. Astraeus are not a charity, and have to see real commercial returns from those that they take on. However, those lucky 5 - each year - will be effectively be paid to train and get a 737 rating, in return for a contribution to the Pprune fund - which will be reinvested in further Wannabe training.. .I hope that Ryanair's system will not gain ground in Europe, and I suspect it won't in the medium and long term. It is an opportunistic (for the airline) scheme that relys on the short-term aims of 737-qualified potential employees. By nature, it suggests that the employer regards the employee as a necessary evil, rather than a team member. That'll work while times are tough, but it won't otherwise - and people will remember.. .Anyway, time will tell. My crystal ball's no better than yours, but I hope it's obvious which scheme I'd recommend you aim for!

[interested]

Guys, please, I am not trying to play the devil's advocate here, though I admit having no real need to access either of the schemes (Ryan's or Pprune's). Money is not a problem for me, I could probably buy my own 737 at today's prices. However, I am conscious of the fact that it is a very real issue for others.

To be honest, the real axe I have to grind is that, for too long in this country, a civil piloting career was the domain of the very privileged, other than a relative handful who went via the military to civil route. In my extremely humble opinion, this has often meant that British flightdecks were manned by those whose 'daddies' bought them a place irrespective of their inherent ability (or distinct lack thereof).

You all well know that to maintain an IR in circumstances outside of aviation employment is an expensive exercise, so much so that, for example, it may mean a choice for the young married man between feeding and clothing his family or selfishly diverting available funds to a personal, driving ambition.

The point I have been trying to press here is that I see no equitable reason to bar application to the less than wealthy. Will you not at least consider this as an appeal on their behalf to admit them to the process? Perhaps you might agree to their subsidising the sim assessment should they fail same.

If this scheme is truly intended to give a leg up to the worthy first timers, how about making it a leg up opportunity to all deemed worthy, irrespective of financial circumstances?

End of plea. :)

[ 29 January 2002: Message edited by: interested ]</p>

[Capt PPRuNe]

Interested, I find your statement quite astonishing. Where do you get your statistics from? I have been a pilot since 1978 when I did my PPL and over the 24 years since then I can count on the fingers of one hand the number of pilots, both private and professional, who had their licences funded by 'daddy'. I am and most of my colleagues would be offended at your suggestion that any of us who did not get our wings in the military are somehow 'priveleged'.

Even those who have been fortunate enough to not worry about where the money was coming from have had to take the same exams and tests and pass all those to exactly the same standards as the rest of us. To say "...irrespective of their inherent ability (or distinct lack thereof)..." is an accusation that you obviously make without any real knowledge of what is involved. The vast majority of us have had to sacrifice something to get where we are today and the actual cost of keeping an IR renewed is just an added cost that has to be factored into any planning if you seriously intend to become a professional pilot.

Your contention that we are restricting the application to only 'wealthy' candidates is insulting in the extreme. The 40+ applications received so far all point to individuals who are extremely determined, of very limited resources and prepared to what is necessary to make sure they remain eligible to apply in this very competitive market.

If you claim to be so concerned about making the scheme "...deemed worthy, irrespective of financial circumstances..." and you are able to "...probably buy my own 737 at today's prices..." then perhaps you would be prepared to fund all those applicants who don't quite fit into our criteria by lending them the money to renew their IR so that they become eligible to apply! Once you change one set of criteria then another will become the limit that causes concern.

There have to be limits or goalposts and everyone knows what they are. To accuse us of being elitist and placing a "...bar to application to the less than wealthy..." is an insult I will not stand for and one I believe you should retract.

[interested]

Well Captain Fyne, it seems I have caused you, personally, some insult here. That was not my intention, so I will immediately apologise for that, if it is what you would wish me to do. I extend that apology to anyone who feels that the cap does not fit.

However, I would wish to raise the following points with respect to your statement above:<ul type="square">1. In fact, I don't think I quoted any statistics in expressing my personally held beliefs as to the privileged versus the unprivileged. I guess the issue here is subjective in that privilege may be relative. What I said was: "for too long in this country, a civil piloting career was the domain of the very privileged, other than a relative handful who went via the military to civil route."; Correct me if I'm wrong, but the 'frozen' UK ATPL costs some £50,000, net of all associated expenses. In other words, the average income earner must have saved this sum after paying tax, NI, and all other living costs and must then maintain him/herself for the period of obtaining the licence. And there are other essentials on top of the bare licence, aren't there, which we'll ignore here for the sake of expediency. This is a vast sum of money, equivalent in some instances to the purchase price of a modest house, and it is beyond the reach of the great majority of youngsters, or their parents. I do not believe it is stretching the truth at all to say that those who can find such sums of disposable income are ‘privileged’ to some degree.

2. To take your own stated case, I understand you have been flying for 24 years and I gather from your past posts that you took many long years to achieve your first real return as a professional pilot. You don’t here say, but you have in the past said that you joined Emerald not that long ago. Thus it took a very long time for you to advance from PPL to CPL/ATPL, did it not? Why was this? Perhaps because you were not privileged, which I would accept. You did it the hard way, which I would applaud. But you must have been free to do so. That is to say that your personal and family responsibilities did not entirely outweigh the cost of you funding your airline piloting aspirations. Some would say that this meant that you were, in fact, privileged.

3. That you are able to count on the fingers of one hand those you know to have been funded by ‘daddy’ may be quite meaningless, for example it may mean that you simply don’t know how the many pilots with whom you have had contact actually achieved their licences. I mean, how many do you think would actually own up to having been funded by ‘daddy’?

4. I did not suggest that ‘any’ of those who did not get their wings in the military are privileged. You said that. I expressed a general belief held personally, and I stand by that generalisation. There would certainly be exceptions, and you claim to be just one (but see 2 above).

5. The exams and tests of which you speak are, in reality, a piece of cake. And like a piece of cake, the ATPL subjects can be learned and passed in conveniently sliced parts. One does not need to be a mental giant in order to pass ATPL subjects (I am living proof of this assertion). One does not need to be a Michael Schumacher to fly the small machines used to achieve that licence. The primary requisite, it can be argued, is the money to pay for these things and to sustain oneself and ones dependants while doing so. Thus, when ‘seriously intending to become a professional pilot’, the primary pre-requisite is: MONEY, and lots of it. And I do not here argue that the professional airline pilot is stupid or inarticulate. Your own parameters for the Pprune scheme are proof that you yourselves hold that the ‘frozen ATPL’ and IR are not, of themselves, sufficient for candidacy as a professional airline pilot.

6. I would wish to understand how you claim that “The 40+ applications received so far all point to individuals who are extremely determined, of very limited resources and prepared to [do?] what is necessary to make sure they remain eligible to apply in this very competitive market.” You have determined this, have you, from their having completed the on-line application form?

7. The fact is that I am not a part of ‘making’ the Pprune scheme what it is. You, and others, are. If I wished to make myself a part of such a scheme I would certainly assess worthiness without regard to financial circumstances. And I would then consider personal funding of suitably capable applicants. I will certainly not commit personal funds to a scheme that bars the impecunious.

8. I have not accused you of being ‘elitist’ but I repeat my assertion that your scheme, as it stands, bars the impecunious and perpetuates a system that has long favoured the wealthy among our population. And I make no apologies or retractions for saying that.[/list]

Consider this: I have asked you and yours to consider a small refinement to requirements regarding IR currency. Notwithstanding your views on my personal beliefs and mores, do you really feel your statement above was a reasonable reaction to such a relatively small, and unselfish, request? <img src="confused.gif" border="0">

[ 29 January 2002: Message edited by: interested ]</p>

[Delta Wun-Wun]

No scheme is perfect.Astraeus are not up and running properly yet,or making any money!BUT they are offering to help.MOL and Ryanair are you watching!!! <img src="eek.gif" border="0">

[redsnail]

Interested,. .I note you are a recreational pilot. So, why are you worrying about an opportunity for 5 wannabe's chance at a jet job? I am sure the interview process will weed out the not-so-keen. This is an opportunity for 5 pilots that may not get that opportunity for quite some time for minimal outlay. Astraeus and PPRuNe do not have to do a thing for the wannabes. They choose to help.

I have been through a sim endorsement programme and if you do not have a current IR AND have the instrument scan up to speed, you will struggle with the tasks. Sims aren't cheap and no one likes to fail. So, I think it is a fair and reasonable requirement.

[pottster]

Why is it that only one person is putting this scheme down? Could it be that it is in fact an excellent chance to break into flying. I see no comparison at all with Ryanair. The only cost I can see is the £3000 to PPune over three years. As the scheme must include MCC in the type rating then it is actually an interest free loaned over 3 years because when compared to some other airlines that require MCC before you start. £3000 minus the cost of MCC equals not a lot for a type rating and 6 months flying with an airline. Yes I am in a position to apply and I am thankful for the opportunity, but I am also able to see that no one had to run the scheme. I thank it deserves nothing but a pat on the back and maybe some of the others who have applied can back me up.

[pjdj777]

Towers, did you mean this thread?

<a href="http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic&f=2&t=009050" target="_blank">http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic&f=2&t=009050</a>

[interested]

Recreational pilots can hold ATPLs, can have bundles of flying experience, including hands-on IFR experience (you know, the sort airline pilots get before 1000 feet on climb out and occasionally at the minima on approach, oh, and on currency check and training). They can have thousands of hours, and are often aircraft owners and operators. Some, for perfectly sound reasons, may have turned down many an offer to join an airline, including offers based on simulator assessments and those made by close friends and colleagues in the airline industry.

Oh, and the ‘recreational pilot’ best known to me actually dived into this thread to uphold principles of fairness and equity in pilot selection and recruitment, not to ‘dump’ on the Pprune scheme. Apologies to all, then, including the Pprune team. I should have known better than to post on a wannabe site when I am not now, nor ever again will be, a wannabe. I long ago became an ‘am’, in aviation as well as in the sense derived from Descartes. :)

[pottster]

Oh dear! Has someone not been getting enough sleep lately!

[interested]

Let me see now ... yep, 10 more brownie points to Pottster ... well done, lad! <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0">

[scroggs]

Interested. .I really don't understand your motivation here. We are discussing the criteria for a programme designed to help those who have already achieved a frozen ATPL, because that is what is on offer. Neither Pprune nor Astraeus are in a position to offer subsidised training to ATPL level, however wonderful such a scheme would be. Perhaps you are, and perhaps you would. If you did, I would be among the first to welcome it.. .However, we have to live in the real world as we find it, and this (so far) is the best we have been able to do. I'm sorry it doesn't reach your standards of equitablity, or right all the wrongs in aviation. That is just tough.. .Now, perhaps if I wish for world peace it'll happen overnight.....

[ 29 January 2002: Message edited by: Scroggs ]</p>

[Capt PPRuNe]

interestedApology accepted, thank you. The rest of the logic in your generalisation about how the vast majority of airline pilots must be extremely privileged and of sufficient wealth if they have not been through the RAF is again seriously flawed. I will assume it comes from a lack understanding of what is really involved in making that leap from desire to commitment.

I can remember back to the time when I was 21, not long out of a 3 year stint as a soldier and working out how many hours I had to work as a motorcycle courier to be able to afford one hour of tuition and flying for my PPL. The thought of ever actually becoming an airline pilot was considered just a fantasy, one beyond anything I could possibly achieve. I mean, how could anyone with only a few 'O' Levels and a love of aviation have a chance at such a dream job? I wasn't even eligible to apply as aircrew for the RAF or a sponsorship with BOAC because my laziness at school meant that I had no 'A' Levels.

As a youngster in my early 20's the idea that I would ever actually become an airline pilot was just a dream and I resigned myself to the fact that I could at least get a PPL and enjoy some of the privileges that it allows. With no qualifications I made the effort to try and get jobs connected to or involved with aviation such as working as a line service technician or maintenance co-ordinator for an airline to name a few. All the time I was spending every hard earned penny on flying and building my hours and experience.

For four years I flew whenever I could and because I had spent so much time in the USA I flew as cheaply as I could. By the time I was booted out of the USA I had accumulated nearly 200 hours of flying time. The next hurdle was finding myself back in the UK, penniless and in desperate need of some income. A few months living with my sister and her husband until I found a job as a canvasser for a home improvement company and earning enough to put down key money for a dingy flat left me with the realisation that I had to give up any notion of ever becoming an airline pilot. I also gave up flying and let my PPL lapse. I had come to a similar conclusion to yours that only very privileged people can become airline pilots.

For the next 8 years I worked my way up from the bottom of the heap through several different jobs and eventually had a mortgage. All through those 8 years I still maintained my interest in aviation and regularly read various magazines and books to try and keep abreast of what was going on. My partner who I was living with knew about my childhood desire to be an airline pilot after I was taken to visit the cockpit of an Iberia Caravelle when I was about 7 years old. It was my partner who encouraged me to make a decision about my future or forever live with the regret of not having at least tried.

In December 1990 I was made redundant and would have had little problem finding another job in the computer industry but the thought of my 9 to 5 existence was beginning to get me down. I still had that desire to fly for a living. It had been 8 years since I last exercised the privileges of my PPL and I was asking myself would I ever fly again? Because I was living with my partner and she was earning enough to support us she suggested that I should look into how much equity I could raise if I remortgaged my flat, which I was renting out, and find out how much it would actually cost to get my professional licence.

Suffice it to say that I took the plunge in 1991 at the ripe old age of 36 and renewed my PPL and started on a 3 year plan to get my CPL. In between taking time out to build hours in the USA because of the pre JAA requirement to have at least 700 hours to be eligible to even sit the ATPL exams I worked when I could. I had to do all my written exam studies by correspondence course and I knew I had to try and pass everything the first time because a resit would push my budget off the rails. I was committed, had a supportive partner and a very limited budget. It was a huge risk as far as I was concerned, not unlike the kind of risk hundreds of thousands of people take every year when they start their own businesses and this is an analogy I think you should apply to your reasoning.

More businesses fail than succeed but raising the money with a good plan is not beyond the reach of most 'non-privileged' people. The analogy I prefer to use if we are going to compare the costs of raising enough money to study for a professional pilots licence is that of the small business owner. In my case I raised nearly £17K from my remortgage and I added to that over the two and a half years I spent on my studies and exams from part time jobs. It took another few years until I got my break and was on that bottom rung of the pilot job ladder. It was only a first officer position flying a small turboprop but I was 38 years old and had realised my dream. Anything else would be icing on the cake.

Overall I estimate it cost me around £50k gross and nearly 4 years of sacrifice and effort. My return on that investment was priceless. I may only have been earning a subsistence wage in my first piloting job but there is nothing more satisfying than doing something you love and enjoy and getting some recompense for it. In the long term I would aim to build up my experience and fathom out how I was going to actually make a living at it.

Now coming back to your belief that most people who have had to raise the £50K or whatever must therefore be privileged means that anyone who has had to raise a similar amount in order to start their own business must also be privileged even though most of those businesses are going to fail within a few years. The one thing that I have found from most of the pilots I have had the privilege to meet over the years is that almost all of them took some form of risk to raise the money and put so much on the line before they ever had their first flying job, never mind their job at the controls of a passenger jet.

Therefore, your 'belief' that most of us are privileged to have been able to get where we are is wrong and that anyone who has invested £50K or whatever in their career prospects will have budgeted that bit extra to keep their investment alive. How they do that is up to them but if they have decided that their priorities lie elsewhere then it is not for us at PPRuNe or Astraeus to move the goalposts just to accommodate them. The financial aspects are only one part of the investment you have to make when you have a real desire to earn your living by sitting in a fast moving office with an ever changing scene outside the window.

Nothing beats that first flight of the day. It is damp and miserable outside. Low overcast and drizzle. You have completed the paperwork and the check and you are lined up on the runway, the end barely visible through the mist and water droplets on the windscreen. You are cleared for take off, push the thrust levers forward and start your next flight. As soon as you are airborne you are enveloped in the low cloud and you are working very hard to follow your procedure and complete your checks. After a few minutes you break through the top of the clouds into glorious sunshine and the world appears to be a different place. To cap it off you know there's a coffee on the way and you are earning a living from all the enjoyment and satisfaction you get from doing your job and your hobby in a professional and safe manner.

We are privileged to be there but the vast majority of us did not get there because we were privileged... if you get my drift.

[ 29 January 2002: Message edited by: Capt PPRuNe ]</p>

[interested]

Scroggsie

Let us put this matter to rest for good. I am becoming bored with it. What is it about the language I have used that is so difficult to understand?

I am not a great contributor to Pprune, as you will see from the number of posts I make. I am, however, a regular Ppruner in the sense that I value the site and log on frequently. It is a great source of current aviation news, and surely even keen recreational pilots are welcome here?

It is this simple, really. I have long held views on the limited opportunities in the airline industry for those who are, shall we say, without funds. When I saw the banner regarding the Pprune scheme, I was interested (that is, after all, my username). I accessed the site and, largely out of curiosity, I entered my details. I was shocked to discover that there is this absolute insistence upon a current IR. The rest has followed from that, really.

If you feel I have been attacking the scheme overall, then I have created entirely the wrong impression. I am not. I would applaud any scheme that creates opportunities for those whose horizons are limited by lack of funding.

Like you, I deplore the scheme devised by Ryanair for its callously opportunistic abuse of career aspirants. But we seem to differ on the Pprune scheme. I hold that it is admirable, but biased toward those with the dosh rather than those without. God knows that holding and maintaining a current IR is a bloody expensive exercise, especially for those who have fairly recently spent the thousands to obtain the ATPL. Partly for this reason, I have frequently loaned my aircraft to those of my acquaintance seeking to renew an IR at minimal cost.

From what I can gather, Hamrah is perfectly well qualified and experienced to judge applicants' performance, whether or not their IR is current, and to make the necessary allowance for the level of currency. Why will he not do, or not be permitted to do, that here?

Now, I will post no more on this topic. It seems I am merely getting up everyone's noses, including the boss (Lord help me!). I have tried to make my point (apparently unsuccessfully) and I have pleaded on behalf of those less financially fortunate than I (again without success). I am not happy with the outcome, but I am happy to accept that I am not in a position to influence beyond my feeble efforts here.

[Late edit. While I was punching out my post above (laboriously ... and with two fingers) the Skipper posted the above. I will now go back and read it to see if he has decided to ban me <img src="frown.gif" border="0"> )

[ 29 January 2002: Message edited by: interested ]</p>

[G SXTY]

Thank you P1. That eloquently saved me having to write chapter and verse to explain to Interested why I am a lowly 25 hour student, who considers himself very far from privileged, who will find a way through to an ATPL whatever it takes, and who believes this scheme to be the most honest attempt at giving newly qualified ATPLs a leg-up he has yet encountered.

I understand why the goalposts have been set where they are. I fully appreciate why a current IR is so important to the application, but I strongly believe that keeping it current has got less to do with Interested’s definition of privilege, and a lot more to do with bloody-minded determination.

[interested]

Ok, Skipper, I've read your post above and I am deeply moved by it. A wonderful post, which I have thoroughly enjoyed reading. Thank you for sharing those experiences with me.

You know, it probably won't surprise you to hear me say that I have heard many similar tales, each a testament to the 'aviation spirit', for want of a better phrase. Nonetheless, I would really ... really ... appreciate it if you took a moment to ponder just one moment in your own story and ask yourself if things may have turned out less happily for you in slightly different circumstance.

What if your partner had not been there for you and had not been so supportive?

The point I make is that her support may well have made the difference between your success and your failure. There may be many youngsters out here without that 'privilege'. Why not give them the chance you've had? If they have achieved their frozen ATPL (and I think an IR was an ATPL pre-requisite), why not allow those with recent IR currency a crack at your scheme. After all, Hamrah (and/or some of his colleagues) can surely exercise their skills to pick the worthy, irrespective of currency.

Again, thanks for the above post. Wonderfully well written. <img src="smile.gif" border="0">

P.S. Sorry for the delay, but I had trouble getting back to the site. All's well now.

[ 29 January 2002: Message edited by: interested ]</p>

[Rowley]

[quote] Nothing beats that first flight of the day. It is damp and miserable outside. Low overcast and drizzle. You have completed the paperwork and the check and you are lined up on the runway, the end barely visible through the mist and water droplets on the windscreen. You are cleared for take off, push the thrust levers forward and start your next flight. As soon as you are airborne you are enveloped in the low cloud and you are working very hard to follow your procedure and complete your checks. After a few minutes you break through the top of the clouds into glorious sunshine and the world appears to be a different place. To cap it off you know there's a coffee on the way and you are earning a living from all the enjoyment and satisfaction you get from doing your job and your hobby in a professional and safe manner. <hr></blockquote>http://www.stopstart.btinternet.co.uk/sm/notworthy.gif

I will make it,I will make it, I will make it, I will make it!!!

[ 29 January 2002: Message edited by: Rowley ]</p>

[Capt PPRuNe]

interested why on earth do you think I would ban you for your views? Surely I am a benevolent despot? Seriously though, I have enjoyed the level of discussion and as you say we are going around in circles. We will have to agree to disagree on this one.

Thank you for your compliment on my feeble attempts to express my views, from whom I think is a writer by profession. You are a pilot and derive the same enjoyment from having achieved that skill whether you do it as a hobby or as a living and therefore you are of course entitled to put your point of view across on these forums. The fact that we are debating it shows you that we have been considering it.

Let me put it this way, if someone truly believes that they have what it takes to be considered for the PPRuNe Career Development Scheme they will get their application in. Part of the process involves being able to understand how to get there. If someone has the licence with the ink still fresh or a slightly faded one with a lapsed IR it will still not be enough. We are looking for the 'total' person. Privileged or underprivileged, it doesn't matter. You have to stand out from the crowd. Before you even get near the simulator you will have to have made an impression on us. We are offering five places and there are probably at least 500 people here in the UK alone who meet the minimum requirements we have set out, never mind all those other wannabes in a similar position in the EEC and they are applying too.

Of course I take time out to ponder what if my own circumstances had been different. It probably would only have taken the flap of a butterfly’s wing on the other side of the world to change the outcome for me but I had to play it as the cards fell and so do everyone else. We are human beings and we are at the top of our evolutionary tree because of our resourcefulness. Whatever ones beliefs there is a certain amount we can do to put or keep ourselves in a position to give us the advantage over someone else. The fatalistic approach is only a part of the equation. If I had not been with that partner at that time I may well not have been here to type this reply to post. Then again there may not have been a PPRuNe Career Development Scheme to argue the point on. There may not have been a PPRuNe! Who knows? Please don't think that we haven't pondered over the fate of some pilots who fall just short of our requirements.

Your philanthropy in loaning your aircraft to those in your acquaintance to help in keeping their costs down is commendable but surely you have to realise that the minimum requirements we have put in place are there to define the standard we require. If you were to publicise who you were I have no doubt that you may be inundated with requests to borrow your aircraft. We here at PPRuNe and the pilot management at Astraeus have all been through the difficult process of getting that first job as a pilot. Most of us are approachable and you will find us on here.

Finally, you stated "After all, Hamrah (and/or some of his colleagues) can surely exercise their skills to pick the worthy, irrespective of currency.". I think you will find it is his many years of experience conducting precisely this kind of assessment that has driven us to set that particular requirement. The main point is that it is not just the fact that you have passed the IR test but that you have one way or another maintained some sort of proficiency with those skills. I will repeat Hamrah's statement here so that we can all take the time to understand it: [quote]If, during the early phases of selection you could demonstrate that you have an IR, that you have been actively using the IR, and that you have booked a renewal, then it would be worth your time applying. However, if you have not been actively flying in Instrument conditions, the sim assessment would be a very difficult challenge indeed.<hr></blockquote> There are only a limited number of sim assessment places and as I mentioned earlier you have a lot to do to impress us before you are even considered to be in a position to prove your flying skills.

As an aside, one way to keep your instrument skills from getting rusty and to get a feel for what is involved in handling a jet why don't some of you arrange with Raw Data to use the Trident sim? I am not sure if he still runs the sim days but from what I can remember an hour in it was less than the cost of a night out on the town. Surely that doesn't keep the underprivileged out of the loop?

[ 29 January 2002: Message edited by: Capt PPRuNe ]</p>

[The Islander]

Every now and again, I read a post on this site that not only inspires, but single-handedly defeats the doom and gloom.

[Delta Wun-Wun]

A little off thread,but what does it take to keep "the average" pilot current with his or her IR.How many hours a month.All on aircraft or is a Sim just as good?. .DWW

[TheNavigator]

Capt Pprune,

Thanks for your excelent post! An authentic inspiration for all of us! You made my day!

After all, all this argument was worth it!

Thanks to Ryanair Scam!!! Just kiding <img src="smile.gif" border="0">

[3 putt]

Let's get back on track.Start another thread about I.R currency if you want.

What about this scam that MoL has dreamt up.Anyone had a reply after parting with fifty squids or even a sim' call up?

[PPRuNe Towers]

A good idea but let's not just theorize.

Start from the unpleasant reality of what really happened to someone during an assessment - go to this thread with your views.

<a href="http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic&f=2&t=009050" target="_blank">http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic&f=2&t=009050</A>

Sincere thanks to pjdj for the courage and good grace to allow others to learn from what happened to him.

Rob Lloyd

[Blindside]

A fantastic series of posts.

The point that I will make is that privilege can be earned.

I am paying for my own training, if this makes me privileged then so what? Like many others, I have worked extremely hard to achieve my current lifestyle, yes I’ve been lucky at times but I’ve also taken advantage of opportunities as they have presented themselves.

It doesn’t take money to work hard at school, attend university, attain excellent grades etc. It also doesn’t take money to make life-changing decisions at a later stage after recognizing earlier mistakes. It may take a little luck to get the breaks, but (and it’s an old truism) the harder I work the luckier I get. The ones who moan about not being able to achieve success have usually, in my experience, failed to get off their backsides to make their own luck.

There will always be those who have had it easier, for numerous reasons, but as you can’t change that why worry about it?

Best regards

[DiverDriver]

Mr Towers, thanks for the link above. The need for the IR and more importantly the currency prior to getting a sim ride now makes sence. Cheers DD.

[CrashDive]

This is for 'Interested' - a précis of the life and times of a another 'spoilt little rich kid' - NOT - who became an airline pilot.

My mother is from a very poor Irish family, e.g. my maternal Grandfather was a farm labourer, and Grandmother was fully occupied bringing up all of their 11 ( yes, eleven ! ) children - so to say that they were poor would be to understate it, e.g. as a child even I recall no running water, and an outside bog.. .My father grew up in an orphanage - so no family.

So my parents didn't exactly have the best start in life (certainly not from a financial standpoint) indeed they've had to struggle all their lives just to get-by because of it, and accordingly (out of necessity) my brother, sister, and I, were all brought up to have a strong work ethic, to be honest & decent people, and to always to help those who were more needy than yourself, i.e. to lend the helping hand ( hence why I love PPRuNe - it allows me to pay back some of my good fortune ).

I didn't exactly have the best education experience ( we were always the 'poor kids' in a school within a very 'well-to-do' neighbourhood - which probably explains a lot about how my sister, brother, and I turned out ) and so when I left school my very first job was in a cardboard-box factory ( seriously ! i.e. I used to have to put the cardboard through the roller & cutter machines ), whilst at night I went to night-school to better myself - but at least I was able to bring some extra money in to the house.

I was lucky and managed to earn and save enough to then allow myself to go to Technical College ( plus the fact that I had to continue to work evenings, weekends, and holidays - in pubs, factories, farms, building sites, trawlers, diving in crap filled harbours in winter, i.e. you name it and I did it, to make ends meet ).. .I did well at college, indeed managing to get good enough grades to go to university - I was the first person in all of my family tree to have ever made it that far in education - but whilst there I still had to work all the hours there were to feed and cloth myself - lectures all day, work all evening, study during the early hours of the morning - but I did it !

Now I'd always wanted to be an airline pilot - indeed one of my earliest childhood memories are of visiting one of my Aunties who then lived in Hounslow ( near Heathrow ) and when ever we went to visit I would insist on being taken to see the aeroplanes from the roof of one of the airport car parks - Tridents, VC10's, 707's DC8's etc (ah nostalgia) - and that was as close as I ever came to an aeroplane until my early 20's when I'd saved enough to have a flight in one - and from which point I was 100% hooked !!!

During the subsequent years ( whilst fortunately now working in the IT/Systems business ) I managed to pay for and do my PPL, as well as build hours, do the CPL written exams ( who else remembers penalty marking ? ) , the CAA GFT and IR.. .It was going quite well - given that it was all a huge risk - but I'd timed it all completely wrong ( I did say that it was a risk - but that's aviation ) by just getting my license at finish of the '91 Gulf War - need I say more ?

Over the next 6 years I stuck with it as best I could, tried to keep current (spent a small fortune doing so), did the ATPL exams, did a CRM/LOFT course, Perf'A, etc... but you name it and it went wrong........ but still I stuck at it.

Ultimately, and whilst the effort to get there nearly destroyed me, I finally got my break ( with Go, thanks to Hamrah ) at the age of 38 !

For the record, in my whole life I have had NO financial assistance by way of gift or grant, and a result of which is that I still live in very modest circumstances because of it

Though let me clear, I would not change any of it. Along the way I've learnt loads, eaten humble pie in huge amounts, been to hell and back, travelled and worked all over the world, met some fabulous people, and had a blast too - I could write a book, I really could ! ....... and it's not over yet !

But, 'Yes', the ride has often been a roller-coaster of emotion with many a moment of seemingly being so close, but yet so far...... but hard work, perseverance, and luck paid off in the end.

And Danny is right - nothing (yes, NOTHING) beats the rush you get when blasting out the top of the solid overcast into clear blue sky and bright sunshine at +400Kts, plus the knowledge that you're now - finally - getting paid to do this !

Ps. Perhaps the biggest joke of it all is that, when I was a young lad at primary school, my then headmaster one day pulled me aside and said "......you'll never amount to anything, because boys from families like yours never do !" - to which my reply now is: Hahahahahahaahaha - coz I've had the last laugh - or there again perhaps he did, e.g. maybe he saw something in me and knew how to ignite my fire ?!

[TheNavigator]

CrashDive,

Somehow this is the sort of posts I really enjoy reading in this board. This is the sort of posts that really help us all in fulfilling this and any other ambitions that are difficult to achieve. This makes me believe that however difficult it is to achieve something it is really up to us to make it happen.

So to Crashdive, Capt Pprune and many others (from memory I remember a few such as Pilot Pete, Scroggs, WWW, …) that told us their story, my sincere thanks.