Safety in the Balance

[Cee of Gee]

This has just been released by the UK industry, together with the CAA:

Heavy Metal front man ramps up industry loading awareness | CAA Newsroom | CAA (http://www.caa.co.uk/application.aspx?catid=14&pagetype=65&appid=7&newstype=n&mode=detail&nid=2006)

Intended for everyone involved in the aircraft loading process, including flight and cabin crew. Presenter's notes are also provided for guidance.

C o' G

[PFR]

Here it is guys...with our man from Iron Maiden:E
Very good:ok:

GHOST - Safety in the Balance Video | Publications | CAA (http://www.caa.co.uk/default.aspx?catid=2136&pagetype=90&pageid=12251)

YouTube - ‪SAFETY IN THE BALANCE‬‏

[Creasy]

GHOST makes an enormous effort to the ground operations :D. I really regret my company is under Polish CAA :mad: advisory.

[Bigbluebroxi]

When you watch a video like that, then add all the other things a dispatcher/trc is responsible for during a turnround you really have to shake your head in disbelief at the absolute buttons handling agents pay for that role.

[AirResearcher]

Excellent video from Bruce, though there's a few more areas that could also have been covered.... in particular:

How LCCs handle loading policies and training of despatchers.
The importance of thorough training cabin crew regarding checking actual seat distribution - especially on narrow bodies/Low load flights and where free seating is involved.
How LCCs carry on luggage policies are catered for on loadsheets and or monitored by the IAA/CAA/FAA etc

[jumpseater]

AR
How LCCs handle loading policies and training of despatchers.

And seeing as how LCC's outsource the handling to 'handling agents' who provide the same service to other operators, be they flag carriers/cargo/charter etc, why is it specifically a issue for LCC operators as opposed to others ?

You need to do a little more research matey, a good number of my former colleagues in LCC ops in the UK across several airlines, are fully paid up FAA despatch license holders, some self funder others LCC company sponsored. Clearly a good number of UK/European LCC operators are far wiser to the issue than you appear to be.

[AirResearcher]

Hi Jumpseater

Thanks for the comments, yep I'm fully aware LCCs outsource, and the skill levels of the despatchers/handling agents etc. I'm the last person to criticise that side of the equation, in fact I may even be more qualified to talk about this than a lot of people on the planet ;)

The problem is not at that end, its how the loading policies are designed, planned and communicated. a lot of LCCs use free seating, and the loadsheet flight envelope is modified to cater for that, and there's all the seat blocking issues that we know are necessary in some cases. FR for example got Boeing to design a restricted envelope which caters for their specific ops requirements, which looks good on paper (pardon the pun) but isnt necessarily as failsafe as it seems.

This is obviously more of an issue with low loads at the bottom half of the envelope on the 738, and other variants, which always has a more restrictive c of g range at low zfw. So if FR etc encourage people not to take hold baggage, and they dont seem to make a habit of carrying freight, youre always going have less of the envelope at ZFW, and consequently less margin for error. Because it also no an exact science in this instance, the stab trim is not going to be as accurate as for example allocated seating + computerised loadsheet as the indices are not so precise. It may be unrelated, but have you noticed that instances of tailscrapes seem to be creeping up?

Theres also the issue of whether all the cabin crew are fully aware of WHY seat rows need to be blocked so its rigidly enforced, though I think FR are pretty strict on that thankfully.

Thers another issue that I cant mention here yet because its a bit too sensitive and will require a fairly major commercial decision, but I'll raise it once the CAA and the LCC concerned have come up with a good solution,

So dont worry, I'm on your side here :ok:

[Bigbluebroxi]

Regarding the issue of seat changes on board, i have had crew allow passengers to return to their original seats on board, after they have been changed for W/B purposes, because they are card holders!

I had one argue with me that we shouldnt move card holders in future. i told them thats fine, but they can just sit on the ramp all day and the card holders can enjoy the "special" seat until they realise they arent going anywhere because of them.

[AirResearcher]

Hi Bigbluebroxi

I'll bet you arent the only one, its a constant battle. Did you need to get the flight deck to talk to them eventually, ? Is it the same with all carriers you handle or any in particular? thats assuming you arent flight deck...in which case ignore that bit ;)!

Ive noticed a distinct difference in passengers attitude to authority in the past few years particularly when it comes to using mobile phones on board (when they shouldnt be), and talking through safety demos etc etc.

[Bigbluebroxi]

Flight deck I am not, would be nice though!!

I just told them I wasnt removing the airbridge until they got the passengers back into the seats they had been allocated by load control. If they chose to allow them to move again afterwards, then at least i knoew it would not be on my conscience should something have went wrong.

There is a fine line that needs to be tread between providing good customer service and also ensuring safety of everybody, but ultimately as we all know its safety that comes first. When safety is and issue I couldnt care less if its joe bloggs or the queen, same rules apply to everybody.

Its only really one carrier we handle who expect their card holders to be treated like gods. Sorry but they arent any different from another passenger for me. You might have a passenger in economy who has saved for years to afford a holiday, why should they receieve any less quality service than somebody who flys every week?

[AirResearcher]

Yep..safety first is the ONLY way... its difficult when passengers are complacent and forget that the laws of physics apply the same to all of us!

[Bigbluebroxi]

The problem is people think they can treat a flight like a bus service.

[AirResearcher]

Yes I agree, and Ryanair are keen to make people think that , which I personally think is part of the problem....

[Bigbluebroxi]

I was actually going to mention Ryanair and companies like them in my last post but didnt want to offend anybody, so glad you said it!!

[Topspotter]

The comment on the pay thay UK dispatchers receive is spot on they are grossly underpaid IMO, Dispatchers should have to hold a licence in the same way as Pilots, Engineers and ATC have to hold a licence before they can work, only then will they be treated and paid as the professionals that they are

[AirResearcher]

Yes, a lot of people are reluctant to mention anything negative about Ryanair, which is a shame as I think there is a lot of room for improvement in many of their ops.

Does their standard loading policy usually result in a tendency to go a lot forward or aft of the C of G generally? And do they use the same nominal pax and bag weights as everyone else in the EU? How do Easyjet and other LCCs compare with this?

How are they on last minute fuel top ups too? I understand the Capt has to get management approval to upload anything above the legal min. contingency fuel - is that correct?

Pay has always been an issue, when I was a despatcher at LHR (some years ago now), we would always request double shifts when they were available to help make ends meet, and none of us could afford to live alone, so house sharing with 3/4 people was pretty much the norm - as it is for many cabin crew, customer service agents etc. Is it still the same, as theres isssues with fatigue management which at the time was not regulated? I'd be interested to hear what other issues and concerns you guys despatching face on a day to day basis now...same for loadmasters

[750XL]

The majority of dispatchers (including myself) are paid less than £7 an hour, on part time contracts usually offering 4-6 hours a day, the majority of shifts being earlies. I find myself and many others having to work double split shifts, typically something like 0430-0830 then 1730-2130, then back in at 0430 the day after) just to be able to eat :rolleyes:

Admittedly some days you'll spend hours sat down twiddling your thumbs but for others you're constantly under pressure running from stand to stand trying to get flights off on time.

IMO, for the pressure dispatchers are under and the amount of responsibility they have, the amount they're paid is a complete joke. They'll be the first ones to get blamed when the flight goes late and seem to spend 90% of the time trying to cover up delays for others, then face all the questions from management. You'd earn the same amount of money working in a fast food chain, where you'd get the benefits of decent training schemes and even degrees (McDonalds).

Getting anything more than 6hrs sleep is a novelty these days for me, and I'm sure many others.

[AirResearcher]

£7 an hour?!! thats almost the same as it was 20 years ago in London, which area of the UK are you in? I'm stunned!

How many hours a month are you averaging, and how many of those are split shifts , and how many FULL days rest do you get?

The responsibility factor has always been a big issue, and its good to see Bruce Dickinson / GHOST and the CAA raising awareness of an often overlooked safety aspect but it still has a long way to go.....

[750XL]

I earn £6.80 an hour, on a permanent part time contract for one of the biggest handling agents in the world, at a large North West airport :ok:

We do 6 on 3 off. Contracted to 20 hours per week, rostered to about 28 over 6 days. First day in usually starts around 0400-0700, with our last day in being a night shift (2200-0700, finishing work on our first day off).

Day 1 off is spent having a power nap when you get home, or sleeping for the whole day.
Day 2 is spent recovering from day 1
Day 3 is spent trying to make yourself tired at night to wake up at 0300 for work...

We aren't rostered to split shifts and can't be forced to do them, but it's pretty much the norm for most people on part time contracts.

We also aren't paid any extra for additional 'skills' (airlines). Whether I can dispatch every airline we handle or just one, I'm still paid peanuts.

[Bigbluebroxi]

I get paid £6.60 an hour. Anything over 37.5 hours is paid at time and a half and any overtime on a sunday is paid at time and two thirds.

I get shift pay which takes my hourly rate up to £7.40 p/h, and additional shift payments for a Saturday at approx 70p p/h and a Sunday of roughly £2p/h.

I'm also on a permananet 20 hour contract and have to work ridculous shifts to make a decent living. I regularly do double shifts starting at 0530, and finish at about 2300, then back in at 0530 again the next day for more.

I'm rostered around 35 hours every week, and although a full time contract would be justified, even over the winter, the company refuse to entertain the idea.

If my average wage from the first quarter of this year continues then i'll earn around £21k this year, however based on the figures above you can see how many hours I'm needing to put in to earn even that amount. Incidentally i think that would be a fare reflection of what the position should be paid for a 37.5 hour week, and would be perfectly happy with those conditions.

Like 750xl, im not paid any extra for being able to handle airlines that other colleagues can't. I hold a Viring Atlantic TCO license, and a British Airways TRC license, however earn no more per hour that folk who have no extra qualification and struggle to do things like fill out a AAA manifest. Sticks in the throat slightly, especially when the staff who are actually employed by said airlines earn salaries in the mid to high 20's for doing the same job, yet require less overall knowledge as they only need to know the procedures for that specific airline, not the umpteen that us handling agent employees do.

[AirResearcher]

Hmmm..not good...

I'd be interested to hear from any more despatchers reading the guys comments above to see if this is the same everywhere. I'm guessing most of you dont have any union possibilities to fight your corner, so you're on your own?

I was going to ask if that was just doing narrow bodies, but obviously not Big Blue... Do you have to do freighters too?

Does everyone have to do full Dangerous Goods training too now, or just an 'awareness' lecture??

Thanks for being so candid ...its much appreciated and I'll be raising the issues as and when I get enough material to encourage some changes.

[Bigbluebroxi]

We have freighters, but they are very small aircrafts. I dont even know what type they are, i dont deal with them very often at all.

The dangerous goods course I did was just an awareness course i think. Id imagine the cargo guys have to do a much more in depth course.

The problem we have is getting everybody to stick together, and also an apathy amongst staff towards the situtation.Also the problem of staff not understanding the importance of their role either, so not realising how underpaid they are.

I had a discussion with my manager the other day regarding pay. I was told that ramp guys, even the guys who only handle bags and dont operate any machines, are paid more because its classed as an industrial job.

A dispatcher/TRC is supposed to oversee the health and safety on the ramp and spend the majority of the turnround underwing, and will be the first to be asked how an incident was allowed to occur, yet thats classed as a Passenger Services position.

Ive had enough to be honest. I love my job but im fed up not being paid enough and being constantly exhausted because im working so much to earn a decent wage.

[750XL]

By the sound of it, I work for the same company as Bigblue.

AFAIK, dispatchers are on the lowest pay scale of everyone within the company (or possibly on par with clerical staff), because apparently we don't have the same responsibility as ramp staff or passenger service agents :ugh:

[Bigbluebroxi]

Yes it sound like we do 750.

My manager knows how much of a responsibility the job has, agrees we are underpaid, yet does eff all about it.

They started an incentive for us to try and improve doors closed time on BA flights. All its going to do is cause people to cut corners and take risks with safety so they can get a bit of extra cash. Maybe they should just pay us accordingly and they would get the calibre of staff required for such an important job.

[aergid]

This is obviously more of an issue with low loads at the bottom half of the envelope on the 738, and other variants, which always has a more restrictive c of g range at low zfw. So if FR etc encourage people not to take hold baggage, and they dont seem to make a habit of carrying freight, youre always going have less of the envelope at ZFW, and consequently less margin for error. Because it also no an exact science in this instance, the stab trim is not going to be as accurate as for example allocated seating + computerised loadsheet as the indices are not so precise. It may be unrelated, but have you noticed that instances of tailscrapes seem to be creeping up?

Theres also the issue of whether all the cabin crew are fully aware of WHY seat rows need to be blocked so its rigidly enforced, though I think FR are pretty strict on that thankfully.




Well all I can say is FR are one of the few Airlines that send a Load Control Trainer to new Handling Agents and train usually very experienced LC's and FC's in manual Loadsheets etc.

Oh and FR do not carry Cargo at all now...

I worked at a regional airport back in the 90's where FR had a hub. They are a completely different outfit now. They have a quality AHM and online support for all stations which is tbh better than alot of "big Mainstream National Airlines I could mention be they from the UK or Germany ;)"

a fleet of 272 B738 which the oldest is 4yrs is not bad for a LCC with no morals or standards:D OTP figures that other carriers could only dream of... should I go on...

FR:D

As far as FC (Dispatcher) pay scales it is the same everywhere. Our FC's also carry out Pushback and are still some of the lowest paid workers on the Airfield... Oh and it is wrong!!!

[750XL]

Well all I can say is FR are one of the few Airlines that send a Load Control Trainer to new Handling Agents and train usually very experienced LC's and FC's in manual Loadsheets etc.

Really? not at my station...

As with most stuff, we're trained to do FR load sheets by someone who doesn't do FR themselves. After initial training, go 8 months without doing a single flight, shadow 4 flights then get rostered to go live :=

To be fair, Ryanair load sheets aren't all that difficult. As long as you can add and subtract (or should I say, have a calculator on you) there's nothing too taxing about it. The difficult part is trying to coordinate the turnaround while doing the loadsheet, when its -15c outside, icey on the apron and pitch black :ok:

Not sure about other stations but where I work, the company will not pay for anyone to stand outside to 'watch' the pax, other than the dispatcher. We're expected to coordinate the turnaround, supervise the off/onload of passengers and complete the loadsheet all at the same time :rolleyes:

[aergid]

As I can only go by the stations I have worked or know about I cannot comment on your station. Maybe because we are a foreign station we get special attention to ensure we are "up to scratch":ok:

Oh and its been a while since I had to work in -15 conditions :)

The STN FR operation works well with Loader/Dispatchers who do everything but I dont think it will be ever used at my station...

PAX should always be escorted on the Ramp its basic Safety & Security....

[AirResearcher]

Hi Aergid
Thanks for very valid comments.

Are the OTP figs you mention based on off-chocks, or arrival times?

FR's schedules from what I have seen seem to have a lot of fat built into them compared to similar sectors with other airlines, so that plus the less congested airports may skew the figs somewhat, as do their lost baggage figs as they a\ encourage people not to carry checked bags and b\their interpretation of 'lost' baggage doesnt seem to be the same as other (IATA) airlines

The other side of the coin of course is, as others have said, is a superb OTD record with 25 min turnrounds a wise thing to be proud of it (and I'm emphasise that 'IF' very very strongly) there is any evidence of ultra fast turnrounds encouraging anything to not be given the fullest attention it deserves?

Ref the w&b training thats good to hear, but its only one part of the chain... especially where free seating is in use.... whether thats crew understanding of restricted seating, or the guys that design the loadsheets and loading policies, etc etc

[AirResearcher]

Ps..Agree with Aergid, the last thing a despatcher should be doing is watching the pax on the apron, thats a passenger service function. FR dont want to use airbridges to save cash, so they should pay a pax svc agent or 2 to do that.. no?

[750XL]

It's hardly surprising FR have such a good OTD record, when you look at their flight times :suspect:

At my station, some flights are arriving up to an hour early on certain days :eek:

[The96er]

Unfortunately, with regards to a certain Circus handling agent, it would appear to be a company policy to ultimately eradicate the position of Dispatcher which is one of the reasons they have their own Central load control here in Manchester and the Dispatcher is now reduced to nothing more than someone who rips a loadsheet of the printer and passes to the Cpt.

Dispatch here in Manchester is now classed as a part of passenger services and is run by people who have no concept of the job or its responsibilities :(

We only have 2 airlines left - SN Brussels and Swiss, where the old position of Dispatching still exist where you're in charge of the load control functions and only because the airlines themselves insist on it.

As for pay, well, pro-rata, we're the lowest paid in the company and of all the other handling agents and as Bigbluebroxi points out, it's a fact acknowledge by our own manager but as usual your constantly reminded that you're lucky to have a job, let alone a pay rise !!!

As for myself, well, the next time a Captain puts in an official complaint because his late running fully loaded aircraft wasn't turned around in 20mins and seeks to blame myself, I just include a copy of my wage slip with the report - makes it all feel worthwhile :{ - all the responsibility and none of the authority !!

[aergid]

I must admit some of the flight times are slightly on the generous side, and yes we have a few A/C arriving very early due to this, but on the whole their simplified turnround is a joy to observe (as long as you are not one of the pax who are being treated like cattle lol)..
Everything is geared up for 25min turnrounds- Pre-Boarding, outbound baggage on stand for the arrival, Stand coordination between fuellers/loaders, Dispatcher always on stand.
Also the Airline supply 1 member of the cabin crew to "assist passenger services" (we use the crew member for pax escort)...
The fd crew also informs the cabin crew on seat blocks eg 1st 5 rows etc depending on loads.

[kazzie]

The wages at the hinted company are not amazing no! And I completely agree with Bigblue and 750XL. If i remember, ICS summer temps were getting more then the dispatchers.

I remember last year being difficult, taking home anything between 500-700 a month (anyting over 700 is a good wage), Even if the loading was CLC, you was still the one to cross check and have to account for the delays if Edition 2 took an age to come through. It's a never ending battle. And as much as I love the job. you have to ask sometimes. Can I afford to work here :sad:

Last year I was making £6.17 an hour with no shift pay as I was 20 hours temp. I admit I am in a much better position now with a different company but still. I fuly support users as such bigblue and 750XL, and of course, every dispatcher out there!

And just to add, Nice video Bruce :D

[AirResearcher]

£6.17 per hour.......................... !!! If you get two (shorthaul) flights away on time in 60 mins thats about £3 per flight for a heck of a lot of responsibility. If you screw up and cause a delay/miss a slot (which most of you won't because you are too conscientious), the cost to the carrier could be in the tens of thousands........

[G-DUDE]

The pay sounds terrible... the man with a beards airline currently advertise for LHR based Tco's on .,£28k ..... what a difference!

[kazzie]

Ha Yeh, Just found the job advertised.. Depressing :suspect:

[Bigbluebroxi]

That depresses me.

Ive got a license to do that job for that airline but get paid half of that due to being a handling agent employee!

[titus_radwulf]

Hello,

How can I order the Bruce Dickinson Safety in the Balance DVD ?
There is nothing obvious on CAA and GHOST websites only an email who does not answer in 3 days.
I need it quickly to help train people in this field.

Thanks for the help

Thierry

[Hawker Demon]

You don't have to buy it, you can down load it free of charge from this link :ok:
Ground Handling Operations Safety Team (GHOST) | Safety Initiatives | Safety Regulation (http://www.caa.co.uk/default.aspx?catid=1831&pagetype=90)

[Blue-Shamrock 89]

Finish at 2330 and back at 0530 is illegal under WTD, that is only 6 hours rest, 11 hours is the legal requirement which can be reduced to 8 for operational requirements or by mutual agreement or quite often a collective agreement.

No matter how much the company fob you off, 6 hours is ridiculous, if you had an accident on the way to or from work part of the investigation would look into your working hours and the company, ultimately your manager could be prosecuted.

[titus_radwulf]

Thanks for the link, but it is pure streaming.
Even firefox 5.0 or google chrome 12.0 cache do not contain 100% of the stream in 1 file. There is a partial file and the rest in a locked file.

I want a simple solution to have it on a media I can share at work with colleagues. My firm prevents employees to connect to you tube contents, even if embedded in a CAA website.

Maybe the CAA people are in vacation and I will have to wait for some days.
Or maybe, next time I come across Bruce Dickinson I will ask for a copy with his signature.
I do not know which of the fast way or the patient way is the best.
If anyone has clues.

Thanks again

Thierry

[titus_radwulf]

I had to install an extension to Google Chrome to be able to download from you tube into mp4.

extension called "Download YouTube Videos as MP4/FLV - Version : 1.2.3"
Phew, was a fight for me. Hope there is no malware inside.

I still do not understand when the CAA says you can get the DVD without giving instructions that work.

Anyway, got it now!!
Only thing left is meet Bruce to have him dedicate the thing.

Thierry

[titus_radwulf]

Me again, epilogue:
Jason Sandever from CAA finally answered my request one week after.
He explained he was out of office for a few days for his job.

So, now, here is how to get the DVD free of charge:
send an email to [email protected]

Mention your postal address, and why how you are going to use the DVD.
Be patient.

Jason Sandever email address at CAA is mentionned in one of the pdf available on the CAA website pages adjacent to the video, but I think the path is not obvious enough, and I had doubts due to the delay of the answer. Something to enhance on the website, in order for the CAA to be in line with the quality of the product.


Best Regards,

Thierry