June 14th: Spanish ATC situation at the European Parliament

[p_perez]

Hello!

at around 14:30z, Spanish ATCO´s will have the opportunity to explain our situation in Spain.

My colleagues Ignacio Ruipérez (president of ATC Petition) and Camilo Cela (president of USCA), will have each 5 minutes to try to explain the last 16 months of persecution and denigration suffered in our country in the hands of unscrupulous politicians. It hasn´t been easy for them to get this opportunity, as Spanish politicians, both from the left and the rigth side, have tried to abort it. We don´t expect much from this, but at least nobody can accuse us of not trying to sound bells and whistles before ...

You can read further in these links:

El presidente de ATC Petition, ya est en Bruselas (http://www.aviaciondigitalglobal.com/noticia.asp?NotId=16499&NotDesignId=4)

Tndem Ruiprez-Cela en un da histrico para el control areo espaol (http://www.aviaciondigitalglobal.com/noticia.asp?NotId=16500&NotDesignId=4)


The speeches are broadcasted live here:

Comisión de Peticiones (http://www.europarl.europa.eu/wps-europarl-internet/frd/live/live-video?eventId=20110614-1500-COMMITTEE-PETI&language=es)


Among other details:

-- 47 class A (near misses) incidents last year in Spanish airspace (8.29 incidents every 100.000 movements, 20.000 people involved);
-- 922.000 minutes of delay from jan-may 2011, a 66% increase since the same period in 2010;
-- more than a hundred ATCO´s "disappear" from AENA´s reports after a clarification was demanded by EUROCONTROL (the numbers provided by AENA in the lasts years were false, with the intention of presenting Spanish ATCO´s less productive than other European colleagues):
-- AENA management plans to reduce delays by increasing sector capacity between 30%-60%, reducing horizontal separation from 8 to 5 miles, reducing training periods for new ATCO´s they plan to move from towers to ACC´s, and stablishing single-man positions.


What do you think about this?


Saludos!

[SINGAPURCANAC]

What do you think about this?

Market.Open market to be more precise.

We discuss here hundred of pages ,about Spanish case.There is no chance to see any improvement until you open your labor market. And not only to open market,but open it in a way that it is possible to obtain job,as well.
That is the main point.

Unfortunately ,ATCOs are main barrier to such ideas.That makes their situation even worse.That will lead them into further deterioration of T&C, further complication and increase of cost for aviation industry and so on.

You must help yourselves at the first instance.

[10W]

I'm not sure that's the total answer. There are many other nations with closed markets who don't seem to have the same battle going on, nor the same safety issues.

A safety culture comes from the top and it should be a goal which is more important to 'managers' than politics and money.

[Daermon ATC]

@ Singapurcanac: I have read many of your post on those 100 pages about the spanish issue. While I may not agree with you on many of them, I'm not so sure that the current situation can be solved through open market alone as this is more a political issue.

Let me clarify: The ruling government party (PSOE) scored many points with the general public last year for their handling of the ATC situation, specially the closing of Spain's airspace in december. Nevertheless they recieved a month ago the heaviest bashing since democracy in Spain.

Now a few articles have appeared in the news pointing to these massive delays and near misses. There has been even insight into a specific internal document from Aena in which a senior staffmember (don't remember which one) stated literally that they were running out of lame excuses and that there was no way that the truth (that is, lack of controllers) would come out.

These initiatives by AENA (let's not forgett they are 100% state owned... at least for now) are politically motivated to be seen doing something even knowing fully well that it will have no immediate positive impact. There has been also some very sharp provocations against the controllers (including firing someone... you may disagree with me if that person was upholding his duty or breaking it, but consider the timing... I don't believe in coincidences) in order to provoke a reaction and shift the blame to them.

I predict that there will be huge delays this summer and an increase in incidents although a decrease in reported incidents as anything up from 5 miles is no longer considered one.

My personal and dearest recommendation to all pilots who have to fly over/to/from Spain this summer is to take in some extra fuel and patience, readback carefully and watch closely your TCAS. :uhoh:

Does this make spanish controllers idiotic morons unable to cope with their jobs? I would not say as much but you may start the bashing as you see fit. I much rather be the target of your insults than see you as a smoking hole in the ground. :(

[SINGAPURCANAC]

@Daermon ,
I appreciate your correct tone and idea to democratically discus it.:ok:

It is only my thesis, that closed systems i.e. those where labor market is not open for free competition is more vulnerable to accidents/incidents.

Also it is important to emphases that it is not enough to "declare" open market.
It is important to do it so, on adequate way.
....yes, you have right ,as a citizen of EU to apply for job, but .........

also, my thesis is that Spanish ATCOs, were made first mistake. They accepted somewhere in the past,around '99 agreement, to sell free time for money. All problems after that point is just logic consequences.

At latter stages both employer and employees found all "advantages" of such genius agreement. It was cheaper for employer not to recruit new ATCOs and pay old ones more for "overtime" and for employees to accept a little money "gift" to work overtime instead of recruitment process.

system that kills newbies is more than vulnerable and has no chance to survive on longer run.
And when it happened, in Spanish case because of World Economic Crisis, than problem arose immediately.

And of course as in any other case, Spain as a State is not in position to loose battle between ATCOs and ATC system.

Politically or not, millions of tourists means more to Spain than a few hundred overpaid and greed ATCOs.

Spain as any other southern European state is more vulnerable to political turmoil ,and if something is not appropriated in Sweden or Holland, it doesn't mean the same in Spain or any other Southern state.
And this fact is everything but unknown for us living at South.
Contract is worth nothing ,if boss think so.

and now, we have some Spanish ATCOs probaly at their mid 40s ,who remember even Franco era, that they are surprised how government react.
:ugh:

honestly I will be "impresed" if something like this happens in Norway. But in Spain, my country is also included on that list,it is "business as usual"

And the main cause, is there is no free labor market.

[Out The Gap]

"-- AENA management plans to reduce delays by increasing sector capacity between 30%-60%, reducing horizontal separation from 8 to 5 miles, reducing training periods for new ATCO´s they plan to move from towers to ACC´s, and stablishing single-man positions."

@ p_perez: I can't see this helping the number of near-misses in the short term..thats for sure.

I have to agree with a lot of what Singapuranac is saying. The greed bubble has to burst. Too much overtime leads to staff shortages (and vice versa obviously), which leads to controller fatigue and eventually incidents... Employ more staff on lower salaries, slash the overtime and increase the rest days.

Hopefully the privatisation of the towers will improve safety somewhat, at least in the CTRs...

[saintex2002]

No OTG, the privatisation, if it still goes on in Spain..., will only improve earnings of the happy new private TWR ansps...

[BrATCO]

"-- AENA management plans to reduce delays by increasing sector capacity between 30%-60%, reducing horizontal separation from 8 to 5 miles, reducing training periods for new ATCO´s they plan to move from towers to ACC´s, and stablishing single-man positions."

There has been so many Class A events in Spain. All in all, almost 1 event out of 10.000 movements is 10 times what should be acceptable in such a "high-safety" activity. Solving this should be the only management's priority.

Single-man positions :
"Single-man positions" is just the opposit of what should be done.
In France, when we are over a sector's capacity, we sometimes ask for a THIRD qualified controller on the position. Not to control, just to be sure we don't miss anything.
Single-man position is a good way to make short term cost-reductions. Just be sure insurance costs won't rise more than the spared amount.

Reduced minima :
12(ish) years ago, we changed separation minima from 8 to 5NM.

It didn't come in a finger's snap. We had to change radar systems (meaning antennas, computers, screens, flight plan systems...), there had to be lots of safety tests...
And controllers had to train for a new concept : before, we had to keep 8NM on the screen to be sure there would be at least a couple of miles in real. Now, we know that maintaining a separation of 5nm will only avoid "metallic contact" (0NM).
This statistically means that errors can be dreadfully more dangerous than before.

That leads me to think that before reducing separation minima, Spannish management should ensure that separation infringement occur a bit less often.
Which means improve continuous training for qualified controllers, adapt rosters to be sure they are fit,...

Once the number of events has been reduced to a normal amount (1 out of 100.000 mouvements), then they can think about increasing capacity.

Reduce training time :
The only way to reduce training time is to get a mono-sector qualification.
This is fast in a short term vision, but the overall system lacks flexibility thus capacity. And it becomes more expensive in a way or another.

Privatisation :
National vs private management is not a real factor : private or servants, controllers are human and subject to fatigue. Physical and/or psycological.

In the USofA, when controllers fall asleep, their management's reflex is to change the rosters, not to privatise. I don't believe their federal ANSP is worse than any of our European privatised service provider.
The only difference is where the money goes. But, in a wonderful World, this should be the subject of a thread on JB, not a safety concern.

[p_perez]

Hello!

This is a link to the video of both speeches, and the following debate:

http://vod.europarl.europa.eu/download/nas/nasvod02/dwnld/wm_on_demand/Channel08/VOD_20110614_16421000_17371600_Ch08_ES_6472a58b1307b1f4ca26c 0e.wmv (SPANISH - 360 MB)

For other languages, follow this link and advance video slider up to 16:42:00 :

Committee meeting (http://www.europarl.europa.eu/wps-europarl-internet/frd/vod/player?category=COMMITTEE&eventCode=20110614-1500-COMMITTEE-PETI&format=wmv&byLeftMenu=researchcommittee&language=en#anchor1)


Guess what? Not a single time were our salaries mentioned by our speakers ...

It´s SAFETY what we demand, folks!


Saludos!

[windneckin]

To me it seems that all those changes are inline with changes that have taken place in many other European countries before.

Plus 8 miles sounds like a waste of airspace anyway...

[BigFrank]

The dictator died in 1975; November 25th unless I am much mistaken.
Taking 45 yo as the median of mid-40s, such ATCs were then about 9 yo.

What do you remember of your own country when you were that age ?

[SINGAPURCANAC]

pretty much, it was '84, and there were Olympic games, "stabilization",there was shortage of coffee, fuel, first time in Montenegro for holiday, and from that holiday I remember that we each morning bought whole casserole(around 2/3 kilos of pie) of meat and cheese pie ,locally known as a "burek", and than can you imagine, all this soft, salted, oiled, without fork and knife, somwhere on the beach ;), dream holiday :D, if you compare with today's holiday all inclusive type. :{:ugh:
:E

[BrATCO]

Plus 8 miles sounds like a waste of airspace anyway...


8 miles would be a waste of airspace if "8 miles" meant "8 miles".

"5 miles" are enough IF AND ONLY IF the radar system and the backup system are certified and the controllers are trained for it.

Mind you ! On a radar screen used for real ATC, "5 miles" does never mean "5 miles".

[TWR]

That really depends on your system. The accuracy with ARTAS or any multi-radar system is very good. No way the plot is more than half a mile off.

And the difference between working with 5 nm or 8 nm isn't that much of a deal...

[PeltonLevel]

And the difference between working with 5 nm or 8 nm isn't that much of a deal... But if errors are common, then there's less space and time to recover from them ...

[TWR]

How much space & time do you want ? 5 nm gives a lot more time than a TCAS RA gives to pilots. A bit of a decent CA starts warning you when you have 1 minute before losing separation. Like I said; it depends on the system...

[chevvron]

In the UK, provided your radar is approved, you can (and do) use 3nm spacing both when vectoring and on final.

[andrijander]

I'm gonna side myself with the "be cautious out there" bunch. As has been said, yes, two aircraft passing with 5 miles from each other is (most) of times ok (wake, formations, etc aside). But on a radar display, a DISPLAY of 5NM doesn't necessarily mean that aircraft are 5NM apart. There needs to be, for a reduction of minimum separation to be effected safely, some of the next points to be considered:

-system validation (when a controllers sees 5:what can it be in real life?)
-staff training (controllers, they need to know what it is they see and what it means in real life; what to expect from now on i.e. reaction times to TCAS and revise procedures)
-staff training (including technicians and engineers: what parts of the system are esential and what/when to tell ops staff?)
-safety cases (can it actually be done?)
-tech upgrades (hardware good enough, soft good enough?)

And probably more. As far as I know (secondhand) this decisions have just been POLITICAL NOT TECHNICAL. So no valid safety case, definitely no training (controllers almost get no TRG in Spain last 15 months, and I don't know about some of the support staff nowadays but do know some techies and TRG is a word they don't know too well either) and so far the system is the same. It just happens it has magically upgraded.

[irony mode ON] It has nothing to do with management trying to reduce the number of separation infringements by reducing sep. minima [irony OFF]

So for those who see this as being alright. It's still a SEAT, they just put a Merc badge on it. But it ain't a Merc, it takes more to change it than wishful thinking. Get it?

[andrijander]

chevvron,

as in many other approach sectors all over the world. Reduced aircraft speeds and radar coverage (proximity to the site for example increases accuracy)do play a role in it. But then again, as stated, you need the system to be there, and the training, and so on.

[BrATCO]

How much space & time do you want ?

Enough to be sure separation is provided in all circonstances, in regard of the radar system specifications : once the proper safety tests have been run to move from 8NM to 5NM.
And once the controllers have been seriously informed about the risks.

I can't believe the system specifications are exactly the same {around Madrid or Barcelona below FL245} compared to {half-way between Spain and Canarias at FL410}.
There are differences and they need to know which ones first.
I doubt Spanish management has invested in these tests yet. Not to mention the training for controllers.

In a plane, when the book says "Minimum Approach Speed : 80kts", you don't try 50kts until the plane has been tested, certified and the book finally says "50kts"... Why should it differ for ATC ?

Edit : crossed with Andrijander with whom I agree totally. He explains much better than I could do. :)

[andrijander]

BrATCO,

I think pilots may get your example better. Mais merci.

[10W]

As people have said, if the system can support a separation standard, then it's not a big deal what that standard is.

Heathrow, for example, can use 2.5NM on final approach as long as certain conditions are met. The controllers received training for this. Most UK Approach units, and some TMA controllers can use 3NM, again, after appropriate safety work to support the standard has been carried out, in terms of equipment and personnel. For UK Area Control Centres, the standard is 5NM, but this is increased in specified areas where multi radar tracking is not available or where the aircraft are at the extremes of single source radar cover to 10NM. The separation standards for each radar are specified in unit instructions and most UK radars don't support 5NM for the whole of their operational range. Multi radar tracking means this is not a major problem except at the extremeties of UK airspace.

You shouldn't get too hung up on the actual value of 5NM. I work lots of different sectors, which are lots of different sizes, and involve lots of different types of airspace (from TMA to Upper Airspace). The 5NM on one sectors radar display will look totally different to 5NM on anothers, in terms of physical distance between the aircraft targets on the screen. You just have to be aware of what the separation standard you need is, and how that looks for the position you are working. Using tools to measure the distance, you can then ensure that you provide the correct physical distance between the aircraft on your display, which will then correlate to a separation standard up in the air. :ok:

[aldegar]

Currently, we only have a 8NM separation in area control. In APP the standard is 3 or 5 NM (depending on multiradar, PSR...).

Besides the fact that most area sectors don't comply with the requirements for the intended separation reduction and all the safety stuff, there is another "funny" issue involved. Let's take for example LEMD, which is the airport having the biggest delays lately. The problem is the overload in the APP sectors (wich already have the 3NM separation and there's no way capacity can be increased because my colleagues there are already working at the limit). So, by increasing the capacity and reducing the separation in the area sectors feeding the APP, what is the achievement?