New Volcanic Ash warning.

[catseye]

Watch out ADL.

Volcanic Ash Graphics 5 (http://reg.bom.gov.au/products/IDD65290.shtml)

:D

[Mr. Hat]

This could go on and on. Mother nature does what it wants. She's not concerned.

[ButFli]

Where's Dick Smith to tell us all that everything is safe and it's just the airlines being "ultra-conservative"?

[Sunstar320]

Qantas, Tiger and Jetstar have ceased all flying to/from Adl till tomorrow mid morning.

[gobbledock]

Where's Dick Smith to tell us all that everything is safe and it's just the airlines being "ultra-conservative"?
Forget the Dick....GT is the new 'go to man'. He knows everything about aircraft, engineering, weather, volcano's, airline finances, aviation investments, Mrs Wirthless make-up and hair stylist etc etc...........

[c173]

are melb-LA flights affected by this??

[HIALS]

I remember (back in the 1990's & early 2000's) when pprune was a font of knowledge.

It has since turned in a simpering cauldron of narrow and nasty industrial tribal warfare.

Have any of the 'professional pilots' on this forum seen any evidence of volcanic clouds worth mentioning?

With the current hysterical over-reaction to the ash-plume eminating from Chile - it would be ideal to get feedback from qualified and experienced eye-witnesses. Why the silence?

[gobbledock]

I remember (back in the 1990's & early 2000's) when pprune was a font of knowledge.
It has since turned in a simpering cauldron of narrow and nasty industrial tribal warfare.
Have any of the 'professional pilots' on this forum seen any evidence of volcanic clouds worth mentioning?
With the current hysterical over-reaction to the ash-plume eminating from Chile - it would be ideal to get feedback from qualified and experienced eye-witnesses. Why the silence?

Dic#head, try reading this;
British Airways Flight 9 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Airways_Flight_9)

[nitpicker330]

BA flew into the Ash cloud VERY CLOSE to it's ejection point and the amount and size of the ash was significant.

NOT the same as we are seeing above us ( or rather NOT seeing )

[Redpanda]

If you guys and gals could get hold of a Boeing Maintenance Manual, go to ATA Chapter 5.....

Look for 'Conditional Inspections'.

Then read "Flying through Volcanic Ash".

You probably wouldn't be asking "Why?":ugh::ugh::ugh:

[HIALS]

Hi Redpanda,

I agree - one should never fly through significant volcanic ash.

I do not believe that we have significant volcanic ash over Australia at present.

The airline operating manuals also state that flight should not be conducted through thunderstorms and micro-burst and so forth. Which is not interpreted by the general aviation community as as reason to cancel all flights. We are (I thought...) smarter than that. We understand that the danger in these phenomenon is specific and identifiable and definable.

Where is this supposed 'boogey-man' of a volcanic ash cloud? It would be different if it was in Indonesia or New Zealand. But, for goodness sake - this ash cloud (for want of a better word) has come from South America. And, it hasn't even come the shortest route - it's come via South Africa.

It is so dispersed it is unidentifiable.

[Spikey21]

Hey HIALS

A one minute flight through volcanic ash can halve the value of an aircraft fuselage without even looking at any of the various engine considerations.

You may have spent too long in a third world environment (pardon the pun)

[HIALS]

I agree that a one minute flight through an erupting volcanic plume will destroy an aircraft.

My point is being lost.

This is not a proximate volcanic plume. It is an enormously dispersed cloud.

The Icelandic volcano that disrupted Europe was a 4 hour flight away from AMS/FRA/CPH/LHR etc. (I know because I have flown from continental Europe to Iceland in a 747 many times.) That would be the equivalent of having Chile, in this example, in the same location as Perth......

This ash cloud (for want of a better word) has come more than half way round the world..... It didn't even come the short route (i.e. South America to Australia/New Zealand) it came the long way round. This ash cloud has travelled from South America, via the South Atlantic to South Africa. Then onwards across the Indian Ocean to Australia. It is preposterous to think it still has the same density of pumice material as the other volcanoes that have disrupted air travel.

All the aircraft operating manuals being quoted are irrelevant. I'm saying - the Emperor Has No Clothes. I suspect there is no ash cloud.

[Wing Root]

NASA's Unexpected Volcanic Ash Encounter Flight (http://www.avweb.com/avwebflash/news/volcanic_ashy_encounter_flight_nasa_202436-1.html)Ten years ago, a NASA DC-8 unintentionally flew through a diffuse ash cloud generated by Hekla, a volcano in Iceland, and upon first inspection showed no damage -- key words "unintentionally" and "upon first inspection." What the event showed is that the most up-to-date information on ash cloud location could be misinterpreted and significant damage could be incurred in spite of a vigilant, well-briefed flight crew. What's more, that damage can be very expensive and hard to detect. Then NASA propulsion engineer Tom Grindle worked the case and co-authored a paper on his findings.For those keen to see the airlines HTFU (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=htfu) on this I think the above story will go some way to explaining why it's simply not worth the risk.

[le Pingouin]

Have a look at the IR image animation at the bottom of this page & see how dispersed it isn't:

BoM-Darwin Volcanic Ash Advisory Centre (http://www.bom.gov.au/info/vaac/cordon_caulle.shtml)

http://www.bom.gov.au/info/vaac/Cordon.gif

[dudduddud]

It didn't even come the short route (i.e. South America to Australia/New Zealand) it came the long way round.

Chile 070Wish

Perth 115Eish

With 175 degrees of longitude separating them, it doesn't look like there is much of a short cut anyway.

[HIALS]

Bon soir le pingouin,

Perhaps I am seriously deluded - but that IR Sat Pic showed the 'red bit' traversing to the South of Australia (even the south of Tasmania).

Furthermore, it did not quantify the density of the cloud.

[HIALS]

dudduddud - it cannot and did not travel over the south pole. The plume is travelling around the world in the roaring 40's wind.

Have you ever flown over the pole? I have flown polar routes (up to 89 degrees North) for years. The idea of equating Great Circle Tracks to the geosphere is really ignorant.

[Angle of Attack]

HIALS,
I agree with you lets face it, it is a world of risk analysts now, and they call the shots, 40 years ago they wouldnt have known and only aircraft flying into the plume nearby ever had any problems. Lets face it all the radiation released from tests and reactor problems never got mapped so we are OK right?? We live in a mad world!:ugh:

[le Pingouin]

HIALS, the point is you claim the ash is "dispersed and unidentifiable", while the images clearly show it is very much the opposite. The tail of it clearly washes over Tasmania & possibly into the Bight.

You believe what you want but the satellite images are showing detectable quantities of ash.

[Sunfish]

We had this discussion about ash when the Icelandic volcano blew up.

The facts of the matter are that turbine blades and nozzle guide vanes are very very expensive and they have a finite life that can be seriously shortened if they have to operate in contaminated air.

Comments regarding momentary inconvenience, attendance at football games, etc. are misplaced when one understands that the aircraft operator may face a bill for many hundreds of thousands of dollars if they miscalculate ash concentrations.

Furthermore, blades and vanes do not grow on trees, nor can you pick up spare engines at Bunnings. An aircraft can be out of service for months if the donks get cooked - then the traveling public will really have something to complain about.


http://www.skybrary.aero/images/Erosion_due_to_Volcanic_Ash.jpg

[WELLCONCERNED]

Airborne Volcanic Object Identifier and Detector (AVOID)


This is NOT a wind up...maybe this might help in the future:


Easyjet Ash Detection System Flight Trials: Airport Int. News (http://www.airport-int.com/news/easyjet-ash-detection-system-flight-trials.html)

Sorry if this has already been discussed in other threads.

[teresa green]

HIALS, I flew thru some stuff that I did NOT see in PNG, until I suddenly had crazed windows, and two coughing donks. This was in a DC3, and I could land with my head out the window (or sort off) (very uncomfortable) expecting a serve from the engineers,instead they complimented me on getting the compressor blades shiny and clean! Just shows what it does.

[Icarus2001]

Sunfish, no doubt about the cause and effect of ash damage. Agreed.

Why does this preclude QF flights operating ML-SY at say FL200, day operations only to remain visually clear of ash cloud?

If QF are concerned about NGVs etc are you saying VB, Emirates etc are not?

[HotDog]

BA flew into the Ash cloud VERY CLOSE to it's ejection point and the amount and size of the ash was significant.

NOT the same as we are seeing above us ( or rather NOT seeing )

I happened to have a rostered flight into Halim Airport Jakarta, two days after the BA incident and had a good look at the state of that aircraft. We didn't have any experience in those days about the dangers of flying through volcanic dust but I was sure glad that I wasn't operating on that flight. Nobody saw it either before they flew into it.

[nitpicker330]

Yes so what's your point?

1/ it was dark
2/ no one was monitoring the eruption for Aviation and could warn them
3/ they flew very close by an erupting Volcano.

2011 and things are a little different now.

You cannot equate the two situations.

[le Pingouin]

Icarus, you're rather assuming there's a nicely defined & visible cloud to remain clear of.

[distracted cockroach]

So I know of one operator that has placed "abradable strips" along leading edges and above windscreens of it's aircraft. These will supposedly pick up any evidence of abrasive particles in the air. So it's only going to tell you what you've already flown through, but at least you can stop flying before (hopefully) any further damage is done.
Simple solution? Maybe. Perhaps Qantas group should look at something similar. Then at least they will have some evidence to justify not flying. Plus surely other operators will co-operate with each other and share information. We aren't that cut-throat yet to deliberately mislead the opposition over a flight safety issue are we?

[ampclamp]

I support conservatism in these matters. I am sure the risk in this case is small but not zero.
Qantas does not need another reason to give it another PR nightmare.Neither do Tiger.
If you dont fly into ash clouds you dont get the damage to hardware, bottom line or bad press. Just imagine an engine going tits up (no matter the reason) on the way to Melbourne or Adelaide. Damned if you do or dont. At least by not flying risk is diminished.
Airlines make their own calls. It is their business.

[stewser89]

Perhaps is a cost thing as well. Qantas group does not want the extra cost to burn extra fuel flying below or around the ash cloud.

Or they want to be seen as taking the 'moral high-ground'

each to their own

[scam sniffer]

Or perhaps it is that QANTAS management are so **** scared of their recent engine reliability record, that they cannot afford to run the risk of another failure at this time, because regardless of the cause, it would be percieved to be as a result of their decision to fly at a time of known risk.

Only way to eliminate the possibility of having such a decision sheeted home to them. Cancel all flights. To be sure to be sure.

SS

[sisemen]

in a DC3 compressor blades ?????...................

[teresa green]

Siseman, you are correct, my apologies, that particular time according to my log was a Vicount. The DC3 incident did take place but the engineers were unfazed, and certainly more unfazed than I was. the windows required replacing, the donks survived. As you get older...............................................!

[5coffee]

Why does this preclude QF flights operating ML-SY at say FL200, day operations only to remain visually clear of ash cloud?

I am aware of two recent occurrences on the NZ south island where light aircraft flew into ash in areas that were not reported on Sigmets. In both cases there was a noticeable build up ash on the aircraft. In both cases it was around 12,000ft. The ash was described as 'sparkling' by observers after landing. The pilots reported that it was not visible in the air, and only noticed a build up on the aircraft.

I guess everyone can make their own calls. But I could fully understand an airline not wanting that in their new engines.

[porch monkey]

Dc 3 technically has compressor blades. It's supercharged ain't it? Ergo, it has a compressor.

[PPRuNeUser0198]

As you know, Qantas has responded to the dispersal of volcanic ash from the Mt Puyehue Cordon Caulle volcano in Chile by cancelling or rerouting a number of flights.

As a valued Frequent Flyer I want to let you know why we have made these decisions when other carriers, including Virgin and Air New Zealand, have continued to operate.

Qantas does not take the decision to cancel flights lightly. We understand that this causes significant disruptions for all our customers. We regret the inconvenience and we appreciate your patience. But safety is our first priority and we will never fly unless we are fully satisfied that it is safe to do so.

Volcanic ash cloud poses a significant threat to aircraft. It can enter an engine, turn into molten glass as a result of the high temperatures and potentially cause the engine to fail. Other risks include windscreens becoming opaque, contamination of cabin air and hydraulic systems and erosion of aircraft parts.

Our decision not to fly in the presence of volcanic ash is based on assessments by our Critical Operational Event Group, with advice from the Bureau of Meteorology and in consultation with the Volcanic Ash Advisory Centre (VAAC) in Darwin.

Unlike the meteorological authorities in Europe, Australia's VAAC does not have the ability to calculate ash density so we are unable to access definitive measurements. Our policy is not to fly into areas where the concentration of volcanic ash is unknown. Without certainty about the density of the ash, we do not consider it safe to fly.

Again, we sincerely regret the inconvenience caused by these weather conditions.

We will continue to resume services to affected ports as soon as it is operationally appropriate to do so. You can find the latest flight updates on our Flight Status page.

Our Chief Pilot Captain Peter Wilson and Head of Integrated Operations Centre Alan Milne are expert members of the Qantas Critical Operational Event Group. You can watch a video of Peter and Alan discussing the rationale behind the Qantas decision to cancel or reroute some flights on Qantas' YouTube channel.

Alan Joyce
Qantas Chief Executive Officer

Safety Over Schedule video.

[nitpicker330]

TG... You might also want to check you spelling of Viscount!!

[teresa green]

A appropriate name for you Nitpicker. You must be hell to live with.

[Wonderworld]

Nitpicker might want to check his spelling of your!

I'm surprised you didn't see anyone at the IOC with the Internet on one of their screens in the video, or with open newspapers sprawled across their desk. Not very lifelike at all. :E

[nitpicker330]

It was a joke TG, settle petal!!

I see your Viscount sitting at the YMMB air museum looking a bit worse for wear....

Chill