uk to spain in a cessna!

[aerofoil1]

good afternoon all
has any one flown from the midlands to alicante in spain in a cessna!
i know it sounds crazy but i was wondering if any one has attempted this and if they would like to share there voyage and experience !not that im planning on doing that as id have to remortgage the house !! but is it possible and viable?looked on google earth and its around 1400miles !!
if you could break down the journey and costs that would be terrific and no im not mad just curious!!
thanks again

[Mariner9]

What's crazy about it? (apart from starting from the Midlands ;))

A far better way to travel than a LoCo

[Slopey]

i know it sounds crazy but i was wondering if any one has attempted this

Nothing crazy about it - it's not a flight to the poles or round the world - it's perfectly easy to do. I'm hoping to try and get from Aberdeen to the tip of Morocco in a C172 at some point later this year - but it's more time/weather that are issues than the flying.

but is it possible and viable?looked on google earth and its around 1400miles !!

Of course it's possible - it's not really that far. What's 1400 miles got to do with it? At 120mph, that's only 12 hours ish. You could do it in 2 days sharing the flying, or take and extra day and tour around a bit on the way down.

no im not mad just curious!!

What's mad is thinking that the idea of taking an aircraft 1400 miles is "crazy" - after all, that's what planes are for, going places, not just bashing the local circuit!

It's actually quite simple - have a go at planning it and you'll see it's entirely possible. :)

As for costs - hourly wet rate for aircraft X however long it's going to take to get there, plus hotel for however many nights you'll take to get there (probably 21 from the midlands if you're taking your time), and figure something like 20EUR for each landing fee.

[Radar]

What's mad about it? What else were light aircraft designed for?

Dropped in to Alicante back in 2003 at the end of the first leg of a trip from Toulouse to Senegal. Great tapas, great wine but unremarkable beyond that, IIRC.

[rgsaero]

I've not bothered going to Spain but frequently been to South of France in an AA5 - so nothing unusual (other than the cost nowadays) about long european trips.

It wasn't unusual before the last war either; my parents went on honeymoon to the Ardennes in 1938 in a light twin, and my Father twice flew himself to Czechoslovakia pre-war. No radio aids then - just map, plot and stop watch.

I also know a man who flies from and back to Portugal every three years in a Chippie - so nothing special really!

[aerofoil1]

agree with you all consider myself told, !! some interesting replys there

[rtl_flyer]

I did Popham to Valencia 2004 in my Cessna 150, after the trip decided something quicker was needed. So built an RV7 and did Thruxton to Muxamel (Nr Alicante) in 2008.

Here is my Cessna 150 trip - Popham to Valencia - Cessna 150 (http://www.gapilot.co.uk/trips/SpainJul04/spain_july.htm)

My RV7 trip - GAPilot - (GO-7) Flight to Spain (http://www.gapilot.co.uk/mf2008/spain08.htm)

Tim

[Kolibear]

Last month I was in one of 7 aircraft that flew UK to Ovieda in Northern Spain, it took about 15 hours in total. Three of those aircraft were C172. We found that Spanish refuellers only took cash and you have to produce a VAT number before they will fuel the aircraft.

[IO540]

Some trip reports here (http://www.peter2000.co.uk/aviation/).

Probably not doable in one leg in a C172 though.

We found that Spanish refuellers only took cash and you have to produce a VAT number before they will fuel the aircraft.

I would suspect that may be because somebody used the word "commercial" to try to get duty free avgas :) I always tried that in Spain but it has not worked for about 3-4 years.

[Chilli Monster]

I did the UK to Oshkosh (http://forums.flyer.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=65069) in a TB20 last year - Spain (http://forums.flyer.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=54986) is just like wandering down to the shops!

[Mark 1]

Doing that trip in a small single VFR is easy (I suspect we're not talking Citation). Doing it in a fixed timescale, less so.
My last trip in that direction stopped at Jersey for cheap fuel, night stop and rendezvous with friends in La Rochelle, then to Valladolid over the top of a solid overcast over the Pyrenees and on to Portugal.

San Sebastian is a nice stopping point, but there are plenty of other options.

Be prepared to re-route or sit out for the weather (especially round the Pyrenees), but don't shy off. Those trips can become addictive.

[IO540]

Indeed; one of the things which my girlfriend and I have learnt quite early on is that time flexibility is required, and one should pick every stop to be a place you actually want to stay at.

And stay there maybe 1 or 2 nights.

There are plenty of great places in Europe for staying in.

Admittedly a TB20 has loads more range (1300nm) than most of the more common types which makes this policy easier, but the need for flexibility does not change.

Last week we scrapped a trip to Greece (and took an airline) because of widespread convective wx (loads of embedded CBs) over N Europe, and there were two fixed timeframes involved: I had to meet up with some people there 3-5 June, and had to be back at the office by the 10th due to staff absence. If you try this kind of thing using GA (below the level of a FL250-capable deiced aircraft) you just end up stressed out (if you play it safe) or you end up in some "interesting situations", or possibly dead, if you don't play it safe. A review of the wx after the trip showed we would have been stuck there for some days.

I have no interest in a US trip. The flying is easy, but there is a significant weather (getting stuck in a total complete hellhole for days is common) risk, and having got there you have to haul the plane all the way back. Quite often, the passenger(s) you took out there get an airline flight back because they've had enough ;) It's a fun thing to do if you want avionics work done cheap :)

Similarly, I no longer have much interest in African trips. Morroco is apparently easy but has little to offer scenery-wise over e.g. the Alps, and the food is crap :) Down the other side, Egypt etc, you need overflight permits and all kinds of crap. The hassle outweighs the enjoyment, for me :)

Spain is a great place to fly to. You can see why they made the spaghetti westerns there... Watch out for a few things like PPR at Zaragoza and a few other places I think. As always, contact the airport before going there to make sure they have avgas etc.

BTW, San Seb no longer takes international flights.

[patowalker]

it could easily be done in any SEP given a few stops.

..., even one with a wobbly wing and a pusher prop.

The Great Adventure (http://www.ultralighthomepage.com/STORIES/adventure.html)

[magpienja]

One of the guys an the airfield I fly from does it every year in his flexwing microlight down to his holiday home...he is no spring chick either,

A 100mls further north than the midland as well,

Good wx and its a 2 day event for him.

Nick.

[IO540]

It is all possible.

You just need more time / more flexibility on dates.

You could walk to Spain, with even more time :)

[Radar]

IO540,

Have to disagree. The Atlas mountains are stunning, the beaches around Tan Tan magnificent and some of the finest meals I've enjoyed were in Marrakesh and Casablanca. The 'official-dom' was a pain in the @$$ but I really enjoyed the flying.

[aerofoil1]

right ill try the cheaper option ill walk wonder how many pairs of trainers id need!!!
but seriously once ive passed my ppl its something i would like to do i love spain very friendly place id imagine it would be alot easier with an instrument rating?
how much do you think that trip would cost, i know most clubs charge from brakes off to brakes on i guess you would need the A/C for at least a week would they charge a weekly rate or whatever?
:ok:

[Mariner9]

Generally clubs are happy for you to to take an aircraft away for a few days. They may have a "utilisation policy", typically 3 hours a day, so if you take an a/c away for a week you will be billed for your total flying time but with a minimum of 21 hours.

Having an IR does make the trip easier but its perfectly do-able VFR.

As for cost - well it depends on what aircraft you fly. I went to Morocco (via Spain) in my Pioneer 300 for a week and flying the return trip cost about £500. Last year I went to the Italian Alps in a Piper Dakota and flying the return trip cost about £1800. One cost benefit of a foreign trip is that you can claim back the duty on the fuel in your aircraft on departure from the UK:ok: (do a search on "drawback" for details)

[BackPacker]

right ill try the cheaper option ill walk wonder how many pairs of trainers id need!!!

Ah. My area of expertise...:E For that sort of trip you don't wear trainers but a decent pair of hiking boots. Meindl and Lowe are just a few brand names that come to mind. They will last maybe some 2000 km, depending on terrain (asphalt or gravel is murderous, grass and turf much better, and leads to better scenery too) and whether you take care of them or not. Particularly how you dry them after they got wet determines how well the leather will keep up over time.:ok:

Anyway, back on topic...

i know most clubs charge from brakes off to brakes on i guess you would need the A/C for at least a week would they charge a weekly rate or whatever?

Most clubs will indeed charge for flying time only. Various charging schemes are used, from block time to flight time, backed up by hobbs or tacho. And most clubs will require a minimum flight time of, say, three hours per day minimum if you take the aircraft for a full day, or multiple days. Of course if you do a multi-day trip, you can fly all the required hours on the first and last day, and let the aircraft sit idle in the middle of the trip, or spread these hours out evenly across all days. The club really wouldn't mind one way or another.

At my club, the rate is wet (ie. including fuel). Any fuel bought elsewhere is reimbursed against the daily price at our home base. Any price differences/tax advantages are yours. That's simply because the fuel component in the rental rate is based on the fuel price at our home base. Using that price as the reimbursement rate makes budgetting easier.

If you want to take a plane for a larger number of days the daily minimum is typically negotiable but you have to keep in mind that a club/school ownes the planes to fly. Not to sit around an airport in the middle of nowhere parked on the tarmac. Fixed cost like insurance, hangarage and such are budgeted across a number of annual flying hours, and these hours are reflected in the daily minimum, corrected for non-flying days and such. Every day the plane sits idle and does not accumulate flying hours means that part of the fixed costs are not being covered.

For seriously longer trips it is usually far better to ask around and see if you can use an aircraft from a private owner or operator who doesn't need it during your holiday. You then typically negotiate a "dry" rate, ie. not including the fuel.

Once your plans are becoming more solid, it helps a lot to post them here, and specifically ask for any airplane offers. There are a few owners/operators posting here who are able to offer good deals on aircraft rentals for these kinds of trips.

[lotusexige]

Kolibear (http://www.pprune.org/members/63156-kolibear), what's teh thing about needing a VAT number to buy fuel? Doesn't make a lot of sense to me. If I were the one selling the fuel I could understand my VAT number needing to be on the invoice but if I am buying fuel, or anything else, it doesnt't make sense.

[Jodelman]

It doesn't have to make sense.

Perhaps you haven't come across Spanish bureaucracy before.

[IO540]

As I said earlier, you don't need a VAT number!

99.9% of private pilots haven't got one.

The only time you are likely to be asked for it is if you use a company name for the fuel etc. Quite a lot of private pilots own their plane in a company (I used to, years ago).

Re cost, you can work that out from the distance, the hourly rate charged by the school, and the speed. It's going to be a few hundred quid, obviously.

[mixture]

what's teh thing about needing a VAT number to buy fuel? Doesn't make a lot of sense to me. If I were the one selling the fuel I could understand my VAT number needing to be on the invoice but if I am buying fuel, or anything else, it doesnt't make sense.

It's beginners VAT legislation lotusexige.

If you are billing a company in another EU country and have been asked to mark the VAT element as exempt, it is a legal obligation that both the VAT number of the company you are billing as well as your own VAT number feature on the VAT invoice. No VAT number, no VAT excemption. Failure to obide by the rules results in a very upset VAT inspector.

The above applies irrespective of the EU country in which the invoice generating company is based, Spain or otherwise.

(N.B. I'm not a VAT expert, nor do I know the specifics as they relate to aviation fuel, so the above is just based on my general knowledge of how things work).

[IO540]

If you are billing a company in another EU country and have been asked to mark the VAT element as exempt,

Indeed, but if the customer does not supply a VAT number then you simply charge them VAT.

[mixture]

Indeed, but if the customer does not supply a VAT number then you simply charge them VAT.


Indeed, which is basically what I said.

No VAT number, no VAT excemption.


But anyway, glad your post wan't pointing out some glaring error due to aviation fuel specifics ... :ok:

[lotusexige]

Sorry, I missed the 'No VAT number, no VAT exemption' bit.

[Katamarino]

Spain is an easy trip. I've just done UK to Luxor, and back to Croatia, in a Maule which is rather slower than a 172, in a little under two weeks. Hopefully, we'll make it back to the UK this weekend. It's tiring, I've flown over 8 hours today, but very rewarding too if you plan properly!

[BackPacker]

Ross, I expect to first read about your successful return to this side of the Med on your blog! Don't keep us in suspence!:ok:

[Kolibear]

VAT Number

IO540 - No one mentioned the word 'commercial'. We just asked for Avgas.

The refuellers insisted on a personal tax number, we tried a National Insurance number - no joy. We tried the number on an EHIC - no dice. Eventually someone phoned home and got a valid VAT number. Armed withg that they were very happy to fill all seven aircraft and this number worked on every airfield. So long as you have a working VAT number that is accepted by their computer - no problem.

It was never a question of no number = fuel+VAT, it was no number = no fuel.

Why?? Don't ask. Don't know.

[IO540]

You should report this to their local CAA.

It is idiotic.