Function Airspace Blocks

[PhiltheReaper]

Hi all...

When I first heard an ATCO talk about FABs I have to say.. I thought of Thunderbirds.

I have the current vague understanding that FABs are a way of ignoring International Boundaries, for the sake of making flight movements more "smooth" and by extension the airspace more... well... functional.

Could anybody please cast a little more light on this for me? I hear eurocontrol counds as the first example closely followed by UK/IRE. Apparently one is coming in in Italy? Any information of possible locations would also be of great interest.

Thanks guys

P.S. A search of the forums flagged up this article: http://www.pprune.org/private-flying/435190-first-step-european-single-sky-what-consequences-vfr-flight.html

I have also viewed the FABEC website here: FAB Europe Central - www.fab-europe-central.eu (http://www.fab-europe-central.eu)

Phil
(NATS Stage 3 pending, fear present :P)

[Spitoon]

Take a look at Skybrary (http://www.skybrary.aero/index.php/Functional_Airspace_Block_(FAB)).

[055166k]

More questions than answers to this one. If FABs are such a good idea why has the UK not joined Eurocontrol who are the undisputed experts and have decades of experience.?.......perhaps its just a good idea but only for everyone else [typical UK stance ]. It is also a way of moving expensive UK ATCO jobs to a cheaper off-shore provider whilst still enjoying the income stream from some of the world's most expensive route charges.
Ask yourself this: If the UK is so efficient then why are the Nav charges so high? Why do so many aircraft take lengthy doglegs to shorten UK track mileage to a minimum in order to save Nav charge costs......and ask yourself whether this practice has an effect on the Carbon footprint!

[ZOOKER]

Having worked on sectors which are adjacent to London, Dublin and Shannon for 25 years I have not seen any results of the UK/Irish FAB project.
It is interesting to note that a speaker from NATS will be addressing the 'UK and Ireland' SAP user-group.

[PhiltheReaper]

Thanks for the replies so far, I see an interesting discussion is to be had here.

Before we go down the inevitable PPRuNe route for topics which people feel strongly about, I'd like to remind potential passionate future posters that there is little to no actual information about FABs on PPRuNe at this time, and a cool and calm discussion about them could seriously rectify that problem for those who find this thread as high in google results when trying to learn about it!

Thanks for the input so far guys, I'll check out that link now!

Can I summarise from your posts that perhaps the UK Opinion is: "FAB's what a nice idea. Couldn't work here of course. We'll try one with Ireland and see what happens"...

*A short while later* "Things seem the same."

Phil

[BDiONU]

Can I summarise from your posts that perhaps the UK Opinion is: "FAB's what a nice idea. Couldn't work here of course. We'll try one with Ireland and see what happens"...

*A short while later* "Things seem the same."
Well there are discussions ongoing with 2 outputs currently. The "Shannon Ensure" projects is a Shannon proposal to resectorise their upper airspace. This will impact on the interface between Shannon and LAC, specifically sectors 4. 7, 8, 9 and 35.
The "Night fuel saving routes" project aim is to make currently used night time directs routes flight plannable by the airlines.
Otherwise not due for delivery until Spring 2013.

BD

[Spitoon]

A bit of misinformation here so far.
why has the UK not joined Eurocontrol who are the undisputed experts and have decades of experience.?The UK is a member of Eurocontrol.It is also a way of moving expensive UK ATCO jobs to a cheaper off-shore provider whilst still enjoying the income stream from some of the world's most expensive route charges.There's no reason to imagine that ATC will be provided by different organisations or from different sites in the short- to medium-term. In reality it probably just isn't practical to make such changes at this stage.If the UK is so efficient then why are the Nav charges so high? Why do so many aircraft take lengthy doglegs to shorten UK track mileage to a minimum in order to save Nav charge costsThis is one of the things that FABs are supposed to help to address.

I'm no great fan of some of the things coming from the European Commission but I will take a look at the facts before shooting from the hip. The reason that FABs are being created is because the SES Airspace Regulation says they must be - by the end of 2012. There are grand plans for what FABs can help to achieve - in the medium- to long-term maybe some of these ideas can be achieved with benefits for everyone.... who knows. But no-one can just click their fingers and make everything wonderful - things have to happen one step at a time. FABs are just one of those steps. No doubt at first some FABs will be little more than agreements on paper but more and more European regulations will be focused on FABs in coming years.

But ill-informed scaremongering does not help anyone. Whatever happens - and the European rules will undoubtedly change the way that controllers work in many respects - I doubt that ANSPs and their operational staff are going to have to up sticks etc. in the next few years. Not because of the introduction of FABs anyway!

[PhiltheReaper]

Hello all,

Sorry to dig up and old post. Quite a while has passed now since we discussed this and I am still finding a shockingly small amount online. Would it be fair to say that perhaps UK ATC aren't taking FABs as seriously as some of the other ideas floating around at the moment for efficiency, or is it that nobody knows enough from UK ATC to stick their neck out and talk about it in certain terms in the media?

Phil

[Sir George Cayley]

For more on FABs maybe FAS will help?

SGC

[PhiltheReaper]

Perhaps I am being a little slow today, but what is FAS?

Phil

[obwan]

I'm no expert but isnt it Functional Airspace Blocks?

[Lon More]

The state of play (http://www.eurocontrol.int/category/keywords/fab)

[PhiltheReaper]

LonMore: Interesting link, thank you

Phil

[10W]

Would it be fair to say that perhaps UK ATC aren't taking FABs as seriously as some of the other ideas floating around at the moment for efficiency, or is it that nobody knows enough from UK ATC to stick their neck out and talk about it in certain terms in the media?

No, it wouldn't be fair. The UK/Ireland FAB is one of only 2 which are actually up and running and producing something for the airlines.

The benefits and savings have been calculated and NATS and the IAA publish these on their FAB websites and newsletters.

UK Ireland FAB (http://www.nats.co.uk/news/ukirelandfab/)

[30W]

Ask yourself this: If the UK is so efficient then why are the Nav charges so high? Why do so many aircraft take lengthy doglegs to shorten UK track mileage to a minimum in order to save Nav charge costs......and ask yourself whether this practice has an effect on the Carbon footprint!

The UK is in fact the second most expensive ANSP for en-route Nav charges, Swizerland actually being the most costly. Quick examples, en-route, the UK is circa 160% more costly than Irish overflight, 23% more than France, 140% more than Portugal.

The cost decision to avoid expensive airspace clearly must be a commercial factor to be considered, but these days is far less of a balancing game than years ago. Going back 15 years or so, annual en-route charges used to be about 2/3rds of the annual fuel bill - yes, big figures! However given the oil price in recent years this balance is clearly now significantly different, and less weight is given to routing based on ANSP costs vs fuel costs.

Charging changed years ago to the 'Great Circle' rule, so is based on GC distance from entry point to exit point within the ANSP's area of responsibility, or airfeld within. I could therefore file say CC outbound to DW - the UK charge would be GC distance CC to the UK boundary. I could however file northbound up to Scotland, turn around and fly back over the MCT and turn to DW and pay exactly the same ATC fee as going direct (as indeed you clearly would in reality!). Always found it a strange, although hugely simplified measurement of charging:hmm:

30W