Orient Thai/One-Two-Go Inquest Findings: "Flagrant Disregard for Passenger Safety"

[InvestigateUdom]

A summary report by the British Government into the cause of death of the British Citizens in Orient Thai/One-Two-Go OG269 is available at www.InvestigateUdom.com. (http://www.InvestigateUdom.com)

A part of the judge's job was to determine whether the deaths were accidental or deliberate; he deemed them neither and entered a (highly unusual but very instructive) narrative verdict damning the airline, the management, the lack of safety at the airline, the pilots illegally excessive work hours, the pilots poor training and skills, the airport, the runway, ATC, and the airport rescue staff.

A selection of his comments:

"The primary failure so far as I am concerned relates to the corporate culture which prevailed both prior to and following the air crash"
"The evidence highlights systemic failures and a highly deficient safety culture at both [One-Two-Go Airlines and Orient Thai Airlines] airlines."
"Further the Company [One-Two-Go Airlines and Orient Thai Airlines] falsified records in a clear attempt to mislead the Authorities who were investigating the circumstances surrounding this tragic air crash."

Further, the judge requests the EC Air Safety as well as other travel organizations be advised and take action to warn travelers.

[66fa0dd7]

I think anybody taking a flight with a foreign independant airline is taking a risk. Not because its bad but regulations might be different and safety standards low. It should be advised to travel with european airlines if you live in the UK.

[Load Toad]

How do you work this out Einstein?

Probably the daftest comment on PPRUNE I've read.

[nike]

I think anybody taking a flight with a foreign independant (sic) airline is taking a risk

What exactly is a "foreign independent airline"?

You should try not to think so much.

[Dan Winterland]

I work for a ''foreign independant'' airline and I can state that our safety culture and standards are among the best in the world, as our recent IOSA audit will testify. Safer in fact than a western operator I have flown for.

There are bad apples in any industry and One 2 Go are among the worst. A low cost company from a country with systematic and endemic corruption is a dangerous mix.




I read the Coroner's report with interest. When reading such reports, it should be noted that the Coroner is making personal statements in his findings which due to his lack of expertese, makes the report quite subjective. One glaring error is that he mentioned the First Officer made an error by deciding to land the aircraft manually, but also later that the approach has an offset localiser. Expert advise would have pointed out that an autoland on an ILS with an offset localiser is impossible.

[stilton]

So it's now considered to be a hazard to conduct a 'manual landing' !!!!


With this operator, maybe...

[Cough]

So, say you are American, French or Italian, taking a flight with a foreign independent airline, such as Virgin Atlantic, or Easyjet is taking a risk?

I, personally, don't think so.

I think your statement requires qualification.

[Mercenary Pilot]

It should be advised to travel with european airlines if you live in the UK.

If you think all European airlines are safe then you are sadly mistaken.

[on time all the time]

.....and they are some national airlines i would not pass the threshold of their aircraft doors....So shall we say we all stay at home 66fa0dd7?
And my case is even more complicated. I work for a british independant airline owned by a swiss family.....What shall I do?

[piratepete]

British Airways...landed short of R27 at Heathrow.
Air NZ ......crashed in to Mt Erubus due to many screw ups on the way there
Qantas....747 ran off the runway at Bangkok due to a PIC screw up
UNITED......too many crashes to mention
AIR FRANCE.......dropped into the Atlantic with an A330.
JAPAN AIR......quite a few
KOREAN AIR......quite a few

I could go on and on and on.....why pick on ORIENT THAI??.Lets face it, **** happens.And it always will, no matter how much CRM/TEM/IOSA/LOSA/ hand wringing etc etc we engage in.The buck stops with the crew, or primarily the PIC.Focus should be on this area, get a good well trained Captain, with a mountain of hours, a proven attitiude, good simulator instructors in his company, make sure he is not too tired, pay him well, give him the respect he deserves for all his hard won experience, and you have your answer to the '**** happens' problem.Too many Captains are now expected to fly with too many under qualified and very poor FOs.Ive seen it first hand at JetstarNZ for example, its a disgrace, all in the name of saving some money. This is a worldwide phenomenom, and it will not go away, it will only get worse and worse, with more and more silly and unnecessary prangs with people getting killed as a result.This silly ICAO SMM Manual for example, is just rubbish....its avoiding the main issue.......lack of experience in the cockpit.

[KKoran]

The buck stops with the crew, or primarily the PIC.Precisely the wrong safety culture. It disregards all of the other organizational factors that could affect safe operations.

[axelFR]

" Captains are now expected to fly with too many under qualified and very poor FOs"

100%¨true, this is the major threat to safety ! A captain with a rich (because nowadays selection is made upon what you got in your wallet), under experienced FO!

[cambs]

I think anybody taking a flight with a foreign independant airline is taking a risk. Not because its bad but regulations might be different and safety standards low. It should be advised to travel with european airlines if you live in the UK. and how do you book a european airline flying domistic thai sectors?

A summary report by the British Government i think i should point out that its NOT a british govenment report, but a Coroner's narative verdict.

[40&80]

And that he has probably never flown a year of commercial flight operations as PIC in his life.

[Exascot]

With respect correction 40&80:

And that he has probably never flown a year of commercial flight operations as PIC in his life.

And that he has probably never flown ......... commercial flight operations as PIC in his life.

What a :mad: :ugh:

[rubik101]

Once again, these two are used where only one should suffice.....call me pedantic if you really must........

Systemic refers to something that is spread throughout, system-wide, affecting a group or system such as a body, economy, airline, market or society as a whole.

Systematic refers to something that is having, showing, or involving a system, method, or plan.

[View From The Ground]

I suspect that the coroner despite his lack of technical knowledge got the overall summary of this particular Airline right. All life is risk and I guess each of us has individual thresholds that we don't want to cross. To be fair to the guy who stated European Airlines whilst those of us who work in the Industry may have a fair idea of what is or is not a safe or very safe Airline the layman cannot make the judgement so easily. I think most of us if picking an Airline we did not know well would choose one from a European Country, or the US as oppose to for example Africa or South America. There are plenty of stats available on the net for those who want to research, but even then the decision is more complex, accidents against flights conducted, accidents against hours flown, etc. I will fly with most Airlines in Europe, US, Australasia, be a little selective in and around SE Asia (where I live) and very selective in Africa and South America.
Overall flying is super safe so even when flying on a lesser quality airline your overall odds are pretty damn good compared to most activities in life. So fret less and fly more!:O

[smala01]

The frustrating thing for me, having flown several sectors as PAX on one-to-die circa 2006 was at the time there was no offical warning mechanism whatsoever about the safety of this airline.

I remember reading some reports on PPrune BEFORE the incident 2007 which changed my choice of airline (hello Air Asia).

So my question - short of whistle blowers on PPrune how should the layman determine if an airline is "safe" ?

[Slasher]

KOREAN AIR......quite a few

Quite a few?? How about QUITE A LOT!

2nd August 1976 – Tehran to Seoul
20th April 1978 – Paris to Anchorage
19th November 1980 – Anchorage to Seoul
1st September 1983 – KAL 007 Anchorage for Seoul
23th December 1983 - Anchorage to LAX
27th July 1989 – Jeddah to Tripoli
6th August 1997 – KAL 801 Seoul to Guam
15th April 1999 – Shanghai to Seoul
22nd December 1999 – KAL 8509 Stansted to Milan

And that's not counting its long list of non-fatal prangs.

That's one outfit which proved clearly the average bum on
the street couldn't give a crap about personal safety, only
the cost of the ticket.

[autoflight]

It is not always convenient to pick another airline, but if we are in the business there is no excuse for avoiding decisions. Even in the USA I rejected a cheaper ticket for a more expensive seat on a better airline because I thought it would be safer. It was. The aircraft I originally planned to travel on CFIT and all were killed.