British attack helicopters operating in Libya (merged)

[junglie-driver]

Blimey! Wishing the crews all the best.

British attack helicopters to Libya - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/libya/8531704/British-attack-helicopters-to-Libya.html)

[Grimweasel]

Sound the sirens! Mission Creep!! Blimey - here goes another Vietnam at this rate - what is the strategy and what is the end game here? It seems the tail is wagging the dog? Maybe this is why Cameron wants us out of Afghan so soon - to re-deploy to Libya?

Does this mean that fast air has failed and they need close air support on tap? Remind me; didn't we used to have a very capable fast air CAS platform up until a few months ago? Maybe this is posturing ahead of the next round of cuts

CGS 'Look, we can provide CAS quicker and have greater permanence than Typhoon, therefore fund more AH and ditch the RAF'

Playing devils advocate of course.... :E

[Thelma Viaduct]

Been in the planning for a while I reckon.

(http://www.pprune.org/military-aircrew/443720-libya-merged-use-thread-only-42.html#post6332400)

[Tourist]

And where, exactly, are they going to fly from?

[wokkamate]

@ Tourist:

Wah!

RTFA chap.......:hmm:

[Tourist]

My point being, that apache is not exactly the most marinised of platforms. Yes you can jump off a ship, but sustained ops?

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

My point being, that apache is not exactly the most marinised of platforms. Yes you can jump off a ship, but sustained ops?

It's all part of the nasty light blue long term plan, we have successfully taken all the dark blue rotary assets now all we have to do is **** all the army ones and Aviation will be for ever more ours, ours I say :E

[airborne_artist]

My point being, that apache is not exactly the most marinised of platforms. Yes you can jump off a ship, but sustained ops?

From the Telegraph: "The helicopter operation – expected to be supported by Special Forces troops – will take the allies closer still to a full ground operation in Libya"

So SF will do target recces (and have been already, probably) and will soon be doing a JTAC role, which is another stage of creep.

How long before the Apaches are land-based in a rebel-controlled area?

I hope 2 Sqn RAFR are working up :\

[Lonewolf_50]

Respectfully, I do not concur with the assessment of mission creep, and believe Pious Pilot to have hit the nail squarely on the head. It appears that from the first, the objective has been, no matter the fig leaves of rhetoric presented at the UN, to remove Col Q from power, using the "Arab Spring" unrest as lever/excuse.

Thus, serials and branches to a variety of Op Plans have been sorted through and accepted/rejected in the NATO Headquarters since before the Ops were more than a day or two old.

What is most interesting is the constant denial that getting Colonel Q out of town is the mission, and "protecting civilians" is the rhetoric resorted to time and again.

Attack helicopters may fill in a citical air support gap, but they also present further opportunities for Colonel Q's folks to shoot down a NATO asset, given the environment they typically operate in, which begs the question:

Why has the risk calculus been changed, yet again?

Best wishes to the aircrews who get this duty, and remember what Saddam's boys did to frustrate a large Apache raid/deep attack in 2003.

Colonel Q's forces and supporters may be the enemy, but I get the sense that they are most determined.

[jamesdevice]

"And where, exactly, are they going to fly from? "

Well THEY think from Ocean

British Army debuts Hellfire at sea | Shephard Group (http://www.shephard.co.uk/news/rotorhub/british-army-debuts-hellfire-at-sea/9075/)

"British Army debuts Hellfire at sea

May 16, 2011

The British Army has fired a Hellfire missile from an Apache attack helicopter for the first time within a maritime environment.

In a development announced on 13 May by the UK Ministry of Defence (MoD), the missiles were fired against seaborne targets from HMS Ocean, the Royal Navy’s (RN’s) largest warship, and the platform on which the Army Air Corps (AAC) attack helicopter force at sea is based.

The exercise, executed near Gibraltar by the 656 Squadron from 4 Regiment AAC, proved the capability of the AH-MK1 ‘to operate and strike from the sea’.

‘In total, 550 rounds of 30mm and nine radar-guided Hellfire missiles were fired, achieving a 100% strike rate,’ an MoD statement said.

‘Today we proved that Apache can operate effectively from a Royal Navy ship, transporting munitions from the ship’s magazine, aircraft upload, launch, firing and then recovering to HMS Ocean,’ commented Maj Mike Neville, commander of the 656 Squadron onboard HMS Ocean.

The exercise followed weeks of intensive training from the squadron that will allow them to operate by both day and night.

‘HMS Ocean is the UK’s only dedicated amphibious helicopter carrier and it is fitting that we provided the platform from which the Army Air Corps have made history,’ Capt Andrew Betton, Commanding officer of HMS Ocean added.

‘656 Squadron have fully integrated themselves onboard the ship and are an integral part of HMS Ocean’s ship’s company.’"

[TBM-Legend]

Australia will send Tigers in mmmmmmmmmm about 2030 when they come on-line.....:eek:

[SASless]

‘Today we proved that Apache can operate effectively from a Royal Navy ship, transporting munitions from the ship’s magazine, aircraft upload, launch, firing and then recovering to HMS Ocean,’ commented Maj Mike Neville, commander of the 656 Squadron onboard HMS Ocean.



Now who is banging a kettle here?

US Army aircraft have been doing that sort of thing for decades now. Even cutsy little Kiowas dunnit. I wonder if the Apaches are flying around at naught feet in the dark while they do this...as hiding from Zeus's requires that.

If they are an integral part of the Ocean....what kind of hat, hat badge, and uniform are they wearing? Do the Army types stand to toast the Queen aboard ship? How does one determine the seating arrangement in the Ward Room.....do the Ruperts bring their Serviette Rack along with them? This makes for an interesting situation I bet?

[jamesdevice]

to what extent were the Scouts / Gazelles / Lynx of 3CBAS carrier integrated?
Were they capable of operating from ships like this or did they have to be based ashore?

And weren't 847 supposed to be getting Apaches to replace their Lynx?

[Doors Off]

Australia will send Tigers in mmmmmmmmmm about 2030 when they come on-line.....

With the French deploying their Tigers to AFG and now Libya as well the question should seriously be asked about the Australian Tigers. No doubt the aircraft is capable, maybe it is the pollies who don't have the nuts to send it. :hmm:

[Airborne Aircrew]

I hope 2 Sqn RAFR are working up I do believe they are trying to grab a quick nap between tours right now. But don't worry, there are a dozen non-Para LAC's just out of Honington that can manage quite well thank you... We can call it Pre-pre-pre Para... ;)

[500N]

Re the Aust Tigers, a bit of both. They will resolve any technical issues
in the future, not sure they will overcome the politicians reluctance to send
them into harm ways and use them to remotely kill people.

[TBM-Legend]

Indeed. The Pollies look only for headline acts.

*Don't worry about another Oz Special Forces guy KIA today [yesterday?]....

RIP

[P6 Driver]

Quote;
"If they are an integral part of the Ocean....what kind of hat, hat badge, and uniform are they wearing? Do the Army types stand to toast the Queen aboard ship? How does one determine the seating arrangement in the Ward Room.....do the Ruperts bring their Serviette Rack along with them? This makes for an interesting situation I bet?"


I hope they have more important things to occupy their minds!
:p

[Wrathmonk]

didn't we used to have a very capable fast air CAS platform up until a few months ago

Which also had Apache deployed alongside it:ugh:

[Cows getting bigger]

Mission creep? Naaaah. I recount endless days doing stupid 'Estimates' of this and that, trying to identify 'centres of gravity', COAs, DPs etc etc. Almost without exception we came up with the "knock his block off" solution. :eek:

Look on the bright side , a relocation from Afghanistan to Libya will help the AT fleet. :)

PS. I also recollect attending an early planning meeting for shoving AH64s on Ocean in the late 90's.

[Biggus]

I can't believe that nobody has mentioned Prince Harry yet!!


We all know how keen he is to be in the thick of military ops......

[Tourist]

"to what extent were the Scouts / Gazelles / Lynx of 3CBAS carrier integrated?
Were they capable of operating from ships like this or did they have to be based ashore?

And weren't 847 supposed to be getting Apaches to replace their Lynx?"

Yes they were fully integrated.
They wanted Cobra because it is marinised, but were never going to get it once the Army went Apache. Getting Wildcat.

I'm not having a go at the Apache boys, but I would be interested to see what the environment is doing to the airframes, and having seen the Apache dunker, I am impressed by their bravery.:eek:

I can't imagine there is any problem in the Wardroom and Messdecks. We have put up with stray Crabs for years, and we tend to get along with the Army rather better since they know how to hold a knife and fork.

[jamesdevice]

and where is Albion? This news item is interesting

HMS Albion plays tag | Shephard Group (http://www.shephard.co.uk/news/rotorhub/hms-albion-plays-tag/8939/)

"HMS Albion plays tag

April 28, 2011

HMS Albion demonstrates her versatility by operating a Tailored Air Group (TAG) of two Sea King Mk4 helicopters together with two Lynx Mk7s.

It's almost a month since the lead ships from the Response Force Task Group (RFTG) left the UK for the Cougar 11 deployment. Whilst HMS Albion has a twin spot flight deck, she has no hanger. Consequently, the 18,500 tonne assault ship was never intended to operate her own air group - and certainly not for an extended period of time.

However this hasn't stopped the aircrew of 847 and 845 Naval Air Squadrons calling the Fleet Flagship home. Crews from both Yeovilton based squadrons, which are part of the Commando Helicopter Force (CHF), embarked prior to the ship leaving the UK and have provided a sizeable and potent Tailored Air Group for important amphibious exercises off Cyprus.

All four helicopters were in operation over the territorial waters belonging to UK Sovereign Base Areas in Cyprus for Wader training, which is a series of amphibious training exercises, ranging from basic embarkation and disembarkation drills all the way up to simulated raids on a coastal target and live fire training.".......

"He said: "A sustained helicopter deployment of this kind hasn't been attempted before due to the limited aviation support facilities onboard the HMS Albion, but the ship and the squadrons have worked hard to sustain a busy flying programme".

Captain James Morley, HMS Albion's Commanding Officer, added: "The tailored air group has integrated quickly into the ship, and adds an important element of capability to what is already one of the most versatile units in the armed forces inventory - and particularly well-suited to the potential range of challenges that we now face in North Africa and the Middle East.""

[Daysleeper]

In an age of austerity she offers innovation and affordability, as well as a practical and politically uncomplicated way to meet the likely challenges arising from environmental and population change, failing states or geo-political insecurity.


in English = a ship

[Willard Whyte]

Look on the bright side , a relocation from Afghanistan to Libya will help the AT fleet.

It'l certainly help the AT fleet draw down...

[Willard Whyte]

I can't believe that nobody has mentioned Prince Harry yet!!

We all know how keen he is to be in the thick of military ops......


Somewhere in Whitehall, early 2011...

Top Neddy: We need an op Prince Harry can fly a chopper in.

Middle Neddy: Afghanistan is ongoing...

Top Neddy: Too risky, meeja outrage last time don'tcha know. Besides, the Gurkha's can't form a protective detail when he's airborne.

Middle Neddy: I see your point Sir, but overstretch...

Top Neddy: OVERSTRETCH?! Wash your mouth out boy!

Middle Neddy: Well we're a bit stuck then, Afghan is our defence priority...

Top Neddy: True, true. Have a look at other hotspots. Creaky defence, insane leader, easy reach for our forces. Got to be sandy though. Our chaps love fighting in sand. Remember, all our kit for the next 30 years has been specced to work in the desert - won't work in humid conditions according to BAES.

Middle Neddy: I know the very place Sir...

[500N]

"I can't believe that nobody has mentioned Prince Harry yet!!

We all know how keen he is to be in the thick of military ops......"


I was thinking the exact thing today.

Has he finished his training yet ?
I know he has his wings but didn't he have 6 more months to go
on all the other kit he needs to learn ?

[SilsoeSid]

I would just like to wish the guys and gals Godspeed and hope you all come home safely. :ok:


Lets not forget that all throughout history the soldiers/sailors/airmen involved with all wars are simply following the orders of politicians who follow the Churchillian philosophy of, 'History will be kind to me, I intend to write it'.

When this is all over, we will very quickly be re-reading about good old Tommy Atkins, while parliament sits sipping bubbly overlooking the Thames.


'History never repeats itself, but it rhymes' !
Mark Twain

[serf]

The French are also sending a proper helicopter...............Gazelle.

[The Helpful Stacker]

I hope 2 Sqn RAFR are working up

So when are NAAFI deploying the EFI then? SRDG are going to need a 'patrol base'.;)

[Pontius Navigator]

I can't believe that nobody has mentioned Prince Harry yet!!


We all know how keen he is to be in the thick of military ops......

SAR Cover? :E

[CathayBrat]

HMS Ocean is the UK’s only carrier

Fixed that for you. :E

[Jumping_Jack]

It does make me chuckle. French announce that they are deploying helos alongside their British AH comrades.....MOD Spokesman, rather predictably shouts 'Deny everything Baldrick!'. Bunch of clowns. Activity over the weekend rather puts paid to the MOD denials. :ugh:

[Wrathmonk]

The denial seems to be more than just your standard MOD spokesperson.

BBC News - Libya unrest: UK 'undecided' on sending helicopters (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-13528702)

Although of course no one has ever told a lie to parliament before;)

[Thelma Viaduct]

The 'govern'ment are fibbing.

[ORAC]

The French are also sending a proper helicopter...............Gazelle. Ares: France sends Tigers to Libya (http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/blogs/defense/index.jsp?plckController=Blog&plckBlogPage=BlogViewPost&newspaperUserId=27ec4a53-dcc8-42d0-bd3a-01329aef79a7&plckPostId=Blog%3a27ec4a53-dcc8-42d0-bd3a-01329aef79a7Post%3a97e11867-22a5-4feb-98ac-2ccacdeecfdb&plckScript=blogScript&plckElementId=blogDest)

France has sent a number of Tiger helicopters to Libya, French Foreign Minister Alain Juppé has confirmed. The helicopters, 12 it is believed but this number could also include some Gazelles, are on board the Tonnerre, the newest of the French navy's BPC Mistral-class multimission ships which sailed from the Mediterranean port of Toulon last Thursday. A spokesman for the armed forces chief of staff said that “for the moment the Tonnerre is not engaged in operations in Libya” but added that if it were to become so “this would not contradict UN Resolution 1973” which basically authorizes force to be used to protect Libyan civilians.

Juppé, briefly defense minister before being appointed to the foreign ministry, largely overshadows Gérard Longuet who holds the defense portfolio, and it was he who explained that the helicopters would “enable us to adapt our ground attack capacities more precisely,” or, in other words, target objectives that are too difficult or risky to be targeted by combat aircraft because surrounded by civilian buildings.The HAP version of the Tiger which the French currently have can fire 68mm rockets and four air-to-air Mistral missiles. It also has a 30mm gun.

http://sitelife.aviationweek.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/14/5/6e2640b1-d636-4fb7-9556-05478cd85760.Large.jpg

Juppé was speaking in the margins of a European Union Foreign Ministers' meeting in which the EU decided to strengthen sanctions against Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi “in order to stop his regime from renewing his military arsenal and recruiting mercenaries.”

[LFFC]

Good to see the RAF getting publicity for their Apache helicopters! :E

RAF showcase Apache helicopter amid Libya rumours (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/defence/8536358/RAF-showcase-Apache-helicopter-amid-Libya-rumours.html)- The Telegraph 25 May 11

[Thelma Viaduct]

The catalyst for leaving Libya will be when an Apache gets shot down.
I reckon that will be sooner rather than later.

[Dimitris]

Its asked above but is the Apache designed to operate from ships? And I mean corrosion protection. I doubt it has high percentage of composites like newer platforms (Tiger maybe?).

[TorqueOfTheDevil]

Whilst HMS Albion has a twin spot flight deck, she has no hanger


So where does the Captain put his uniform?

I'll get me coat...

[Caspian237]

Well it looks like the Apache deployment has been confirmed.

BBC News - Libya Apache deployment approved by David Cameron (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-13558056)

Article:- "The UK is sending four Apache attack helicopters to the mission in Libya, after approval by the prime minister."

Presumably they will be operating from HMS Ocean, although we know that the assualt ship Albion can support a TAG of four helicopters thanks to the last post by Jamesdevice.

[SASless]

Is the UK, USA, NATO at "WAR" with Libya? What would be the status of any aircrew that gets shot down and captured? POW's with full protection of the Geneva Accords?

[racedo]

I think Libya could execute as no declared war...............which is worrying.

[500N]

" I think Libya could execute as no declared war...............which is worrying."

Operating under UN Resolutions.

I think Gaddafi would be game to try that. He's in it deep enough already.

[parabellum]

Possibly operate as pairs with some kind of top cover to supress enemy activity until the rescue arrives, almost al la Vietnam.

[glad rag]

Possibly operate as pairs with some kind of top cover to supress enemy activity until the rescue arrives, almost al la Vietnam. A bit like "I'd do it for you, sandy":hmm:

And will we, yes WE, be providing recognition training for the "rebel alliance" or are they expected to "use the force" to differentiate between friend and foe?

Or as is more likely, will they just blaze away regardless from the back of a Toyota pickup?

:rolleyes:marvellous:rolleyes: :rolleyes:decision.:rolleyes:

[dead_pan]

The UK is sending four Apache attack helicopters to the mission in Libya


Four, as in two pair? Is that it? Those chaps are going to be really busy.

[tonker]

The following is a graphic clip from Syria. If anyone has any doubt as to what we are trying to do in Libya, and latterly Syria is good and right then you should take a good look at yourself in the mirror.

Should it be left to Britain, France and the USA, no. Will it, probably. I'm still ******* angry after watching this and warn you it is graphic. I feel it is important though to know what is happening, and urge you to watch it.

Regards:(

LiveLeak.com - SYRIA!! The Madness and Killings Goes On!!

[SASless]

Is it a surprise that Dictatorships will not take kindly to being overthrown by the People? Of course the results of putting down a rebellion are ugly....and remind us of the price of Freedom that has been paid elsewhere down through history.

Just what would you have us do as a Government and as a People re Syria and the ongoing rebellion there?

[Thelma Viaduct]

There's no doubt in my mind that the UK government would instruct the police and armed services to do exactly the same thing if 'we' decided we wanted a change.

[SASless]

Would the Police and UK Military do so if ordered?

Gun down unarmed protesters?

Really?

[Rakshasa]

History and human nature suggests quite a few would.

BTW, breaking headline, first sortie launched from Ocean last night.

[glad rag]

There's no doubt in my mind that the UK government would instruct the police and armed services to do exactly the same thing if 'we' decided we wanted a change. #

Not a chance.

[FODPlod]

BBC News: Libya: UK Apache helicopters used in Nato attacks (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-13651736)

British Apache attack helicopters have been used over Libya for the first time, Nato has confirmed. They attacked and destroyed two military installations, a radar site and an armed checkpoint near Brega, the Captain of HMS Ocean told the BBC. French Gazelle helicopters also took part in simultaneous attacks on different targets in Libya for the first time...

[Widger]

BBC News - Libya: UK Apache helicopters used in Nato attacks (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-13651736)

UK Apache operates from HMS Ocean in support of UNSCR 1973. Surprised it took so long. Lucky we still have a platform the army can still operate from!

[Al Murdoch]

Who was that clown on BBC Breakfast this morning? He claimed to be a former RAF pilot. Mostly talked out of his rear-end about how "the folks on Top Gear would like Apache" or some such drivel.
Not once did anyone mention in the interview that the deployment of OCEAN is quite clearly designed to focus attention away from the embarrassing realities of the recent butchering of our naval strike capability. Its a political headline grabber - simple as that.... "Get something floating down there with aircraft on ASAP, because the French are making us look pathetic".

[FODPlod]

Daily Telegraph: Libya: UK Apache attack helicopters launch first strikes (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/libya/8556202/Libya-UK-Apache-attack-helicopters-launch-first-strikes.html)

The RAF Apaches hit targets near the Libyan town of Brega during the latest wave of Nato strikes against forces loyal to Colonel Muammar Gaddafi, the MoD said. Did the MoD really say that?

[gijoe]

FOD,

It was on Today as 'RAF Apaches' - the Telegraph probably got the release at the same time.

I do hope the MOD Press Office did not say that. Know your subject.

G:ok:

[TheWizard]

RAF Apaches strike Gaddafi | The Sun |News|Campaigns|Our Boys (http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/campaigns/our_boys/3618725/RAF-Apaches-strike-Gaddafi.html)
:}


Just in case anyone wants the real story!
Ministry of Defence | Defence News | Military Operations | Apaches conduct operations over Libya (http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/DefenceNews/MilitaryOperations/ApachesConductOperationsOverLibya.htm)

[Easy Street]

Haha - the start of payback for all the times that Chinook, Merlin, Puma, and RAF personnel wearing CS95 have been described as "Army" in publications various! ;)

[Unchecked]

Good work boys, stay safe.

[diginagain]

RAF personnel wearing CS95 have been described as many things. :ok:

[TurbineTooHot]

For all the banter, stay safe boys and girls. Go get'em!

[Tallsar]

AM..I have total sympathy with your view...the perceived reality by Joe Public being we still have a carrier with some air punch ...which of course is true to a degree albeit not in the way you quite rightly talk of. I note Cameron mentioned only the deployment and use of the Apache in all his public utterances and seemed determined not to say how they would be able do their job...woe betied he to say it would be from an RN (helicopter) carrier....and yes the embarrassment of the French doing their stuff from a proper CVS (called CDG no less .....NON!) with the UK as junior partner is now beginning to seep through to the Nation....an Entente approach yes...but history insists it must be balanced and joint...Nelson and Wellington must be really squirming :ooh::mad::(

[BBadanov]

On the news here, it is not only 'RAF Apaches' but also 'French Apaches' !! Ahhh the media, why bother about checking facts...

[SASless]

Sack yer Blue! Monsewer!

Back seat to the French....say it ain't so!:uhoh:

Oh the opportunity this gives.....but being the Gentleman I am....I will let it pass. :E

Sad situation really.....I guess our turn is coming too.:{

[Rakshasa]

Speaking of MoD gaffes and knowing subject. :E

You fellas do realise Illustrious is still in service right? She's just in refit. Not that that cures the distinct lack of SHAR and Bona.... :ugh:

[500N]

If the Libyan crisis is still going at the end of the year what chance Harry gets sent ?

Anyone in the know, are they likely to send him to Libya instead of Afghanistan for security reasons (easier to secure him quietly on a ship than at a base) ?

.

[Chicken Leg]

Who was that clown on BBC Breakfast this morning? He claimed to be a former RAF pilot

You answered your own question!!

[Al Murdoch]

Fair one - I don't normally miss an opportunity to upset the Crabs.

[racedo]

Would the Police and UK Military do so if ordered?

Gun down unarmed protesters?

Really?

Bloody Sunday gives us an idea whether they would or not.

[RileyDove]

Yeah and some 'protestors' might even kill unarmed soldiers!

[racedo]

Riley

Soldiers "unarmed"...................I think not.

In situation of severe unrest in UK, bases are locked down because of concerns about safety / security as Govt is telling us.

Certain cities with certain populations are aflame instigated from abroad (or thats what Govt is stating) and military are used to quell unrest and ordered to fire................what do you think would be outcome ?

[Thelma Viaduct]

Can't speak for the Navy or RAF, but before you sign up for the Army it's made clear that you may be required to deal with UK civil disorder.

No one should trust the government at the best of times, let alone when things get tasty. Politicians are the lowest of the low, despite their limited productivity, they are capable of anything.

[500N]

"................what do you think would be outcome ?"

Another bloody Sunday.

.

[parabellum]

Bloody Sunday gives us an idea whether they would or not.


Not quite the same, even Martin McGuinness, of Sinn Fein, admitted the IRA opened fire first, from the roof of a building, they were not all unarmed civilians.

[racedo]

Para

This is digressing from main thread but not quite sure McGuinness admitted anything which is par for the course for him and his ilk.

In the context of those who died they were innocent civilians.

[Lonewolf_50]

racedo, I would at best characterize that as an assumption, not a truth statement, made for political purposes.

That most were more or less innocent of any wrongdoing does not guarantee that none were malefactors fortuitously caught in the lead stream. That the number of non lethal means available has grown since Bloody Sunday, over 40 years ago, means that Bloody Sunday is far less likely a response in a future disturbance.

In other news, Syrian security forces have apparently been given a taste of lead, though how much parallel this has to what's going on in Libya is anybody's guess.

[SASless]

I posed the question...."unarmed protesters"...meaning large numbers of citizens in the streets...protesting....not rioting...not looting...but plain ol' getting out and shouting, yelling, givinig the two finger salute to the government.

Put yourself in the shoes of a commander of a platoon or company of troops...receiving orders to shoot down anyone in the street protesting.

Would you give the order?

If given the order....would you obey?

With absolute certainty....I would not....and would refuse outright. If my Commander gave such an order I would be more likely to shoot him.

Perhaps for those of you who think you would....does the name My Lai, Vietnam ring a bell? Now consider it to be your very own countrymen?

[Mmmmnice]

Top bit of thread drift chaps - Libya - NI - Vietnam.......outstanding!

[TBM-Legend]

PS: Don't mention Israel gunning down 20-30 unarmed civilians.

[LFFC]

Well, it looks like the Apache will need quite a bit of work doing to it before it embarks again. I wonder if it's all affordable?

UK eyes Apache modifications after Libyan experience (http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/uk-eyes-apache-modifications-after-libyan-experience-363865/) - 26 Oct 2011


It also exposed several shortcomings of the Apache for embarked operations, such as its current main rotor brake design, which was not strong enough under high wind conditions.

Crews also expressed concerns about the likely outcome of any ditching event, should they be unable to make it back to the ship.

"We need some sort of a flotation device, as the aircraft would sink like a stone," Tennant said. A new canopy jettison system would also be required, he said, as the current design could have fatal consequences if used once the aircraft is in the water.

The addition of an I-band transponder would aid crews' ability to navigate back to a ship, while an improvement is also needed in battery life to increase flight time from just 6min in the event of a total electrical system failure.

[Biggus]

Stand by for a comment from, "you know who", he won't be able to resist




25 missions (40 planned) in 3 months if the article is to believed, that doesn't seem like a high utilization rate?

Standing by to be corrected/flamed!

[BossEyed]

LFFC, all of the issues mentioned in that Flight story were known about in MOD years before the Libyan deployment.

[RileyDove]

My main concern is corrosion. The Apache is simply not designed to be at sea and has many places where salt will gather and cause damage. The only thing the Army should be looking at is the U.S Block 3 modifications.