ATCO as a Second Career

[dB130]

Good morning

I am hoping for some advice re ATCO as a second career. There's lots of great information on the other threads but in the few hours I've spent lurking about I am yet to find anything that quite hits the spot.

I am a commissioned officer in the armed forces and am looking at a complete career change to ATCO within the next two to fifteen years (!). I am 39 years old, married with 2 young children. Although I am not due to retire from the armed forces until I am 55, I would leave early if conditions were right. I currently have no technical experience in aviation.

NATS selection and training would be a workable solution for me, if they’d have me. Indeed, my intention is to apply when NATS recruitment opens again. However, for fairly obvious reasons, it occurs to me that it would be wise to not be too hopeful of success.

What are the other options open to me, if any? Is it possible to qualify as an ATCO part-time, at my own expense and whilst in full-time employment, or is the only viable solution to find a sponsor, leave full-time employment and train full-time for minimum/no salary? What are the career prospects of a minimally qualified but inexperienced ATCO in the private sector?

Thanks in anticipation.

dB


PS. Despite my age I am at least as awesome as any 20 year old school leaver. ;)

[Chilli Monster]

Your present Profession / Branch would be useful for a more complete answer, but I'm guessing by your opening statement of a complete career change it isn't ATC.

Is it possible to qualify as an ATCO part-time, at my own expense and whilst in full-time employment, or is the only viable solution to find a sponsor, leave full-time employment and train full-time for minimum/no salary?

The self study route closed in 1994 with the introduction of RGAT. Your only option now is a full time course or courses. At your age, and in the current climate, it is doubtful whether anybody would sponsor you, especially if you have no ATC background in the Military. (A lot of those guys are self sponsoring, as I did 16 years ago).

What are the career prospects of a minimally qualified but inexperienced ATCO in the private sector?

I hate to say this but, without any previous experience, and with age not on your side, not fantastic. You would have to be capable of a very hard and convincing sell. Without wishing to appear too brutal, you might want to be looking at things more closely aligned to your current skill sets.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Hi and welcome to The PPRuNe Lunatic Asylum. I am sure that you will receive many responses but here's my opinion.

At 39 you may well feel like a kid (I do and I'm nearly 67) but as we get older our brains slow down. Full-blown ATC is a demanding task requiring a great deal of study, both practical and theoretical over a longish period before one becomes competent to work "solo". Typically, at a busy ATC unit a fully-experienced controller could take 6 months or more to reach unit validation standard. There are regular competency reviews and medicals, both of which you are probably used to.

Starting in ATC at your age, with no aviation background, would be a major task. Without any doubt, NATS is the way to go in the UK. Just about everything is paid for but salary whilst training is quite low. However, if you do make it you can look forward to a salary from around £50-100k and excellent working conditions. Otherwise, there are privately run ATC courses for which one pays an arm and several legs with no guarantee of work at the end.

I wish you luck...

[dB130]

Thank you both for the advice, the welcome.

Dare I ask... to what extent would anyone over c.36 be wasting their time applying to NATS? I presume that regardless of industrial tribunal findings, apparent lack of academic evidence, etc, assertions regarding any cognitive reduction beyond 45 and any related impact on operator performance remain prevalent and continue to inform selection.

[Chilli Monster]

No doubt the points you bring up are relevant, but there is another - economics.

NATS retirement age is 60. You're closer to that than a 21 year old graduate. Statistically you might also be closer to losing your medical than that graduate. Bearing in mind it costs the same to train the pair of you then the 21 year old is, on paper, better value for money.

The bean counters rule.

[dB130]

Is retirement at 60 mandatory, industry average or related more specifically to NATS pension terms?

[seahawks]

I am fairly sure that NATS recently removed any mention of age from retirement rules, in line with current government thinking.

I guess competence/fitness will become the deciding factor in stopping those who don't know when to!

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

What used to happen when I was working was that some ATCOs (usually those in non-operational jobs) would retire at 60 but then continue working. That way they got their full pension plus a full salary. Not sure if it still happens.

[A I]

HD. It certainly can happen. I took my pension a year before I retired - that was two years ago.

[Danscowpie]

DB130

Time for the facts.

You will have to do the Basic course, followed by the ADI course. and because you have no prior ATC experience, its the bare minimum requirement.
This process will take around 18 weeks and cost you around £16K, plus VAT, plus accommodation and subsitance.
After that, you are very low on the employability scale, you'd have to do the radar rating to stand the remotest chance
of gaining employment (another £12k + the rest).

All are very intensive courses and there isn't the remotest chance that you could do them and remain in full time employment.

Additionally, it's extremely unlikely that any airport would take you on and sponsor you, they have many of their own staff who are streets ahead of you in terms of experience who they'd far rather invest in.

Chilli is spot on, I am afraid you are too late and shouldn't risk your money.
Take a little time to reflect upon your possibilities and invest elsewhere

[heretostay]

Time for the facts.

You will have to do the Basic course, followed by the ADI course. and because you have no prior ATC experience, its the bare minimum requirement.

That's assuming he or she wants to do Aerodrome.

There appears to be a bit of a shortage of APS and APP rated ATCOs so he or she could do either of these and do ADI later if so desired.

[055166k]

Why don't you check out the website? Scroll to "career seekers"......nearly all your questions answered and not a hint of upper age barrier...even an application form. Go for it!
NATS | A global leader in air traffic control and airport performance (http://www.nats.co.uk)
Good luck.

[Brian 48nav]

As my friend above says,at least give it a try - then there will be no 'what if?' moments later in life.

Even if accepted it will be hard, but ,as I posted when a similar query came up last year, I have heard of guys in their 40s throwing up their existing career to fulfil a dream of becoming a pilot and succeeding.

IIRC a lot of advice was given to 'Electric Chick' last year and you may be able to access that here.

[mallardpi]

dB - check your personal messages

[Danscowpie]

There appears to be a bit of a shortage of APS and APP rated ATCOs so he or she could do either of these and do ADI later if so desired.

Indeed there is, however, APP without ADI is no use to anyone and there's no chance of employment with just APP.

The option of doing Basic and APS is indeed a very sensible option, however, for someone with no ATC experience at all, it's a huge risk.
If dB had was previously a very experienced Mil ATCO with all the ratings, there'd be a very good chance he'd get through the APS Course and be very employable.

Even with that experience, it's a very difficult course to undertake, as any ex Mil person will vouch for, without it, you'd be better off doing all from scratch.

[jinglejangles]

''Indeed there is, however, APP without ADI is no use to anyone and there's no chance of employment with just APP''

Untrue

[heretostay]

Indeed there is, however, APP without ADI is no use to anyone and there's no chance of employment with just APP.
Not correct.

I know of a unit where they are in desperate need of an ATCO with APS (they are presently inundated with ADI ATCOs), APP would be a distinct advantage. I know of 3 or 4 self sponsored people out there who did Basic then APS as APS at the time was the selling point (and still is). They have still not done ADI to date.

I get the impression that there are a lot of UK ATCOs who have APS and have left for the Middle East which is why the shortage in the UK of APS folk.The option of doing Basic and APS is indeed a very sensible option, however, for someone with no ATC experience at all, it's a huge risk.Any course to a self sponsor is a huge risk, even to someone who is sponsored its a risk but the whole point of the Basic Course is to teach students what they need to enable them to continue on to a rating thereafter.

:)

[mr grumpy]

I read recently that to solo in a glider it takes approximately 20 landings plus 1 for every year over 20 years of age. In other words a 40 year old takes twice the landings to solo as a 20 year old.

I started ATC training at the age of 20 and it was bloody hard work. I wouldn't even consider doing it at the age of 40. There are plenty of cases of experienced controllers who have struggled to validate at other units when in their 40s and 50s which seems to me to bear out my theory.

I'm not saying it can't be done but it's very high risk. Even if you manage it you've got to find someone to employ you and I would suggest that a recently trained 40 year old without a unit endorsement or any experience would not be at the top of most unit manager's shortlist.

[Danscowpie]

Jingleangles + Heretostay, you should really check the definition of APP (as opposed to APS) in the UK before you post.:rolleyes:

As I said, APP without ADI is an unemployable position, Basic and APS is a completely different kettle of fish.

[CADF]

Your age is against you. Some years ago CATCS did a study on age vs failure rate and as a result SNCO AATCs where not accepted for controller training if they were aged 36+. No idea if the rule is still applied but I recall that teaching ab initio 'old' guys was hard work and often ended in tears - for the student as well.