Saab 340A Línea Sol crash in Rio Negro

[jcjeant]

Hi,

Rio Negro-Argentina Plane Goes Up in Fireball, 22 Lost | George Hatcher's Air Flight Disaster (http://airflightdisaster.com/?p=16984)
Cayó un avión en Río Negro: no hay sobrevivientes - lanacion.com * (http://www.lanacion.com.ar/1374519-cayo-un-avion-en-rio-negro)
Noticias de Buenos Aires - Agrupadas en una sola pgina (http://www.plusnoticias.com.ar/guiarss.asp?id_rss=17)

[spInY nORmAn]

An Argentine commercial plane crashed in the country’s remote Patagonian region late on Wednesday, killing all 19 passengers and three crew members on board:

Passenger plane crash kills 22 in Argentina - The Globe and Mail (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/americas/passenger-plane-crash-kills-22-in-argentina/article2027753/)

[captainsuperstorm]

I smell P2F !!!:eek:

[Jorge_Vilarrubi]

According to local reports:
22 people dead.
Crew declared emergency, icing problems suspected.
Local witness reported a fireball falling down from the skies.

[jcjeant]

Hi,

Crew declared emergency, icing problems suspected.
Local witness reported a fireball falling down from the skies.

How can icing problems initiate a fireball ?

[ajc-bue]

http://www.ambito.com/diario/2011/0519/imagenes/Not_20110519_583457_G007.jpg

First images from the site

[ajc-bue]

Cayó un avión en Río Negro - Google Maps (http://maps.google.com.ar/maps/ms?ie=UTF8&hl=es&msa=0&msid=203685373763311309766.0004a3980eb743a2705cb&ll=-41.294317,-68.620605&spn=6.602643,13.161621&z=6&source=embed)

The site on the map

[pattern_is_full]

How can icing problems initiate a fireball ?

I can think of a couple of ways (at least), but they may have nothing to do with this accident, since both the cause and the "fireball" (prior to impact, of course) are not confirmed.

1. Failure of inlet deicing system, leading to ingestion of accumulated inlet ice and uncontained turbine explosion.

2. Wing icing leads to unrecoverable dive, mid-air breakup.

[FlightCosting]

This might provide some insight as to the cause

From the 340A AOM
............................................................ ...........................
ICE and RAIN PROTECTION

General

Air Bleed and electrical power, mainly from the 115VAC wild frequency systemis used for ice and rain protection. Bleed air is used for wing and stabiliser inflatable boots and the engine split lip and inlet guide vanes. Electrical power is used for the remainder of the ice and rain protection.

1.1 System limits

Operation with one AC Generator

If one AC generator fails, the working generator will be overloaded. Air intake heating supplied from the affected generator will be lost. There is no cross feeding possibility available for air intake heating functions.

3. Abnormal functions

3.1 AC GEN FAULT

ICEPROT light on CWP

Actions

1. Affected AC GEN Switch....... OFF/R THEN ON

2. Affected AC GEN light..... CHECK

if light still on

3. Affected AC GEN Switch.... OFF R.

CAUTION

Leave icing area as soon as possible as engine inlet anti-icing is lost on the affected engine.

............................................................ ...........

The aircraft was quite a venerable old lady that was one of the early deliveries to Comair in 1985 - SN 025

[Hank the F/C]

According to the Aviation Herald Crash: Sol SF34 near Los Menucos on May 18th 2011, impacted terrain (http://www.avherald.com/h?article=43cca6ed&opt=0) there was a SIGMET with severe icing. The SF-34 is not certified to enter such and it was forecasted between FL070 and FL180. A SF-34 AKA SAAB 340A with the fairchild wing will never climb above FL150 with ENG A/I on. Even though the air intakes are a lot better now than back in 85 they still fail surprisingly often. That said the SAAB is however excellent in icing conditions as long as all systems are go...
And jcjeant, please explain the acid-face with shades. It may not be considered appropriate due the severity of the accident

[Beanbag]

Local witness reported a fireball falling down from the skies

I wouldn't read much into this. Witnesses often report a fireball in the air even when the investigation concludes the only fire was on the ground. Probably something to do with how the brain processes something you only see out of the corner of your eye.

[GarageYears]

Witnesses often report a fireball in the air even when the investigation concludes the only fire was on the ground. Probably something to do with how the brain processes something you only see out of the corner of your eye.

+1 on that. I've lost count of the number of times that is reported, when it patently was not true. Part of me wants to attribute it to journalistic license also. The drama of the "fireball" falling from the sky is many times more impactful than "I saw it fall...".

[Jorge_Vilarrubi]

Same witness said on TV last night that he has seen the plane flying too low with lights on and then he saw a fireball at terrain level.
The airborne fireball option should be discarded then.
In regards to the Captain, according to relatives and friends, he had 8,000 hrs flying on different types and was a very professional pilot.
Other pilots said that a very serious upset should have developed on the a/c, otherwise the Cpt would have managed to resolve.
According to FAA (Argentina's Air Force), the recorders have been recovered and are about to be analyzed. Personally, I don't trust that much on their professionalism.

[DownIn3Green]

The old 340A..."The Ice Magnet"...We had 'em at Bar Harbor in the mid 80's...

[FlightCosting]

According to FAA (Argentina's Air Force), the recorders have been recovered and are about to be analyzed. Personally, I don't trust that much on their professionalism.


Accident investigation team with SAAB personnel is now on the way from Sweden to investigate the cause

[low n' slow]

My bet is on intake problems with subsequent ingestion of ice into the engine.

If I had a buck for every time I've seen the intake light come on I'd be a rich guy. The most common problem is in regulating intake temperature. They regularly overheat and switch off automatically as they hit the overtemp sensor and then comes back online when sufficiently cool. In all truth, the intake is actually working, it's heating up properly, but it can't regulate it's temperature. Because of this, it's very common amongst Saab operators to see this as a "non-problem". It doesn't help that the Saab 340 has problems generating enough revenue to cover it's own costs. All Saab 340 operators I've seen have had an ongoing economic crisis, but that might be another forum... Terrible safety culture (or lack thereof).

The problem comes when the overtemp sensor stops working... Then the intakes melt and normally short circuit and need to be replaced. Until this is done, it will most likely look like playdough and probably have a similar effeciency to the same when it comes to preventing ice accreation.

Also, flying with these overheating cycles can cause uneven heating resulting in local coldspots where ice can form and then get sucked into the engine as the intake heats up again after an overtemp.

There is a birdcatcher for big stuff heading the compressors way, and also a particle separator for smaller stuff, but I think it highly likely that ice built up on the intake could be sucked into the compressor, bypassing all intake protection systems.

Then there are a few other likely scenarios such as power turbine failure etc. Especially on the A-model with weak engines, it can be difficult to follow the power setting tables and stay flying. Regular use of excessive power will offset the actual wear of the engine in relation to the maintenance cycles and this usually ends in turbine failure. Over high terrain and in severe icing with drift down limitations and what not would very likely be a nervous situation. This is just pure speculation though and I've not read anything that indicates that any of this could be the cause...

[lomapaseo]

My bet is on intake problems with subsequent ingestion of ice into the engine.

.........


Then there are a few other likely scenarios such as power turbine failure etc. Especially on the A-model with weak engines, it can be difficult to follow the power setting tables and stay flying. Regular use of excessive power will offset the actual wear of the engine in relation to the maintenance cycles and this usually ends in turbine failure. Over high terrain and in severe icing with drift down limitations and what not would very likely be a nervous situation. This is just pure speculation though and I've not read anything that indicates that any of this could be the cause...


what purpose does it serve to post a bet in the internet covering the total field of unknowns:confused:

What payout do you expect ?

Just how many A340 accidents (not incidents) have been attributed to these causes?

I would wait for some better odds (facts) before playing all the horses at once.

[ajc-bue]

from today news:

"The pilot asked to descend from 5.800 meters to 4.300 due to ice.
In the last communication wit ATC informed that was at 1.000 metres and going back to NQN."