Tornado GR4 - Given a hard time?

[sturb199]

Guys/Girls

I shall start with the fact that this is not a troll!!!

Having worked for a good few years on the GR4 and F3 and lost many a day to their foibles!!! I still have a great soft spot for the pair of them, with the recent demise of the F3 and the general kicking it has received :(. It has got me thinking, is the GR4 going to get the same treatment despite the fact that it has plodded away over the years and achieved pretty much all that has been asked of it and its air/ground crews. I don't want to this to turn into a 'Harrier was better and cheaper thread' just a bit a poll as the thoughts on the GR4?

[Trim Stab]

The Harrier was better and cheaper.

That's the thread finished then :)

[sturb199]

Nice one num nuts!!!!:=

[The B Word]

I'll rise to your challenge Trim Stab - how many Harrier and Tornado hours do you have? Where did you get your figures from (please don't say from that muppet Tourist and his vitriolic drivel)?

Obviously the Harrier is not cheaper or better (unless you're talking about going backwards at Airshows that is a particularly useful tactic for operations!). STOVL is about the only area that Harrier has the advantage - whoopy do, only really ever used in the Falklands, all recent conflicts have been conventional take offs.

Sturb199 - in answer to you're question, the venerable "Fin" did/does great work in Iraq (1st time and 2nd time), Kosovo, Afghanistan and now Libya. It's pretty hard to knock now that the crews have stopped trying to fly it like a Vulcan (once that mafia had left by the late 90s).

The B Word

[sturb199]

It's pretty hard to knock now that the crews have stopped trying to fly it like a Vulcan (once that mafia had left by the late 90s).

Thanks for the reply, do tell more about this issues, it's something before my time?

[jindabyne]

sturb

Expect a rash of inane replies from young numpties (and not so young) that infect these sort of threads. A remark for which I'll be flamed. Others will be more helpful.

[light_my_spey]

To be honest (and this is from an Engineer's point of view) have always found the GR4 to be a loveable rogue, whoever designed certained aspects quite clearly thought about the maintenance aspects, easy access panels, quick rectification though LRUs etc. However the ECS system for example is an utter dog's dinner:ugh: and less said about the engines the better (disabled by a Navigator's map........typically on a Friday afternoon:bored:).
Still, excluding BAe's attempt to charge the earth for every nut and bolt:E not a bad wee thing.

ps. Harriers were better.

[3 bladed beast]

I bet the Harriers didn't fire flares at each other whilst trying to take photos and then try and claim they were shot...........!!!???:ok:

[navibrator]

Harriers were better - at what?? Hovering and crashing in the circuit - that's it!

[threeputt]

"It's pretty hard to knock now that the crews have stopped trying to fly it like a Vulcan (once that mafia had left by the late 90s)."

Yes, I would also like an explanation please

3P:ok:

[Wingswinger]

It's pretty hard to knock now that the crews have stopped trying to fly it like a Vulcan (once that mafia had left by the late 90s)."

Some of us here were doing our damndest to prevent them looking on it purely as a Vulcan replacement in the first place. I remember one particular "nav" in the bar at Cottesmore in '83 saying something along the lines of "I don't like punchy types" to an assembled company of ex-Bucc/F4/Jag/Lightning and Harrier pilots. He didn't last long.

[Corporal Clott]

I'm pretty sure I know what he's hinting at. When the Vulcan chaps came to the Tonka they flew similar tactics to how they'd been doing previously - low level "on time and track" somewhat inflexible attacks. Once they started flying more flexibly using multi-axis, multi-level and flexible attacks they fared far better on Cope Thunder and Red Flag against the newer Air Defence tactics - a tactic that became a blurring between CAS, BAI and Strike.

Not a dig at the Vulcan force, just a statement that things moved on (for the better IMHO).

Cpl Clott :ok:

[The B Word]

Clott et al

Exactly! It was the same for the F3 with some of the Lightning and Phantom mates (Jehovah!) introducing things that didn't make the best of what the newer jet could deliver. As you say, not a dig at the legacy aircraft type and I guess the Typhoon force had/has the same problem with ex-Tornado (both types), Jaguar and Harrier mates with "when I was on...we used to do...".

That said, some read accross of tactics can be a good thing as well as long it is not a mafia. I also remember that the ex-Bucaneer mates made the transition to Tornado far better than the Vulcan mates (which given their experience isn't that surprising).

The B Word

[foldingwings]

Having grown up with the Bucc, I don't think it's fair to lambaste the Tornado Force alone about its V-Force incomers! At one point, HQ1Gp which had governed the V-Force and was now running the Bucc Force amongst others, decided that it would be a good idea to retrofit a sextant in the Bucc's rear cockpit!! Needless to say that never happened! I recall also, as a Bucc OCU Nav instructor, sitting behind an ex-V-Force pilot who opened the cockpit conversation with 'Captain to Navigator' - he didn't ever do it again!!!!! He was the original VFW!

However, it is true to say that there was a large V-Force intake to the early GR1 sqns and many found it difficult to adapt from the 'strategic' Vulcan to the 'tactical' Tornado. I was in Germany, late 80s, on the GR1 with a number of them who attempted to drive the Tornado just like they had the V-Bomber. Those pilots flew it straight and level and some ex-V-Force navs never looked out the window but followed the green writing as if it was their God! However, many, like 3-Putt, were not in that category and were as tactically aware as those who had come off FJs previously. The others lolled about in the doldrums of the squadron and didn't advance much beyond 2-ship lead!

Foldie:E

[Pontius Navigator]

Remember too that the GR1 took part in the Giant Voice Strategic bombing competitions. Someone clearly thought it was a strategic bomber, bit like an FB111 Lite. Did rather well too even at high level bombing on 6 hour missions.

Did rather too well IIRC and was not invited a second time.

[Wingswinger]

Indeed. I may speak as one of the 617 Sqn winners in '84.

[Sashathehungry]

Harriers were better - at what?? Hovering and crashing in the circuit - that's it!

Better at not having navs?

[bvcu]

At the end of the day its all down to cost , not long ago we had tonka/jaguar/harrier all doing different jobs with some overlap and as mentioned before once we'd lost the vulcan the tonka took on that role. Also look at cost history when you look at running costs in the tonka/harrier debate. Its only in the last few years that things changed to get a more cost effective maint system going that got the harrier costs down and availability up.

[NutLoose]

Didn't they melt down a F3 Tonka to make a bell? that wouldn't ring true either...... rather apt to end as a bell that's ring isn't quite right.....

:ok:

[tonker]

There was a GR4 over Spadeadam on Thursday 14.15 very low level. So impressive it was that my off roader left the A69 as i watched, and entered its natural habitat of the open countryside at just under 60mph. Into the garage tomorrow for a £500 repair bill!

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

The more you slag off an aircraft type, the more stupid you look when it beats you.
The sports version of the Tornado was designed to take out Soviet bomber hordes, not do knifefights in telephone boxes. Would I have preferred it if the RAF had bought F-14/15? Yes, of course, but they didn't.
My first DACT against the F4 (flown by 2 QWIs) was a draw every split, and there are quite enough navs who will tell you I was a stunningly average pilot. After that it was win every time.
Single seaters? wait till it gets dark/cloudy (70% of the time),or just bring 4+ to the fight, and they lost too.
I think the F3 excelled at low level sweep, which we did lots of in the early days and was bucketloads of fun.
Truth is, RAF aircrew make the best of whatever their Government grudgingly lumbers them with. I felt the Bucc crews probably achieved most with least, but the Norfolk Landshark got dumb bombs on target very accurately, and won the early comps so well that they were, in true US style, never invited back.

[threeputt]

I didn't really want to get involved in a pissing contest but hey ho whatever.

In my experience, along with the likes of the vastly more experienced FJ QWI back seaters such as Foldingwings, us crossovers from the V force contributed much to the multi role concept of the GR1 in RAF Germany. Indeed during GW1 it was the ex V force input to the problems of medium level "dumb" bombing that enabled us to put some bombs reasonably near to where we wanted them. Radar handling techniques and the application of arithmetical fixes and meterological data interpretation were mostly unknown by the FJ centric QWIs et al, until the problem first arose. I, like most of my ex V force mates lapped up the nav solutions that the aircraft gave us which enabled us to spent as much time as we could looking out.
However, the night/IMC nature of the task was somewhat akin to that on the Vulcan but, was in reality a million nautical miles opposed in operation.

If there was a mafia around in those days it was mainly made up of ex Lightning or Jag mates, all with an axe to grind and mostly with long pockets and short arms.............and also at least the Buccanneer pilots were used to flying with a GIB.

Lastly what, IMHO, made the Tornado force such an effective one was the very ecclectic nature of the make up of the crews as demonstrated between Jan and March 1991.

B Word your personal profile doesn't give away your background so SIUYT!

A proud ex GR1 GIB

Gedgie (aka 3Putt:ok: , or as I like to be known now, Captain of the Wiltshire Seniors golf team)

[Wingswinger]

Lastly what, IMHO, made the Tornado force such an effective one was the very ecclectic nature of the make up of the crews as demonstrated between Jan and March 1991.

True. And not just in GW1 (to which I was a mere TV spectator having exercised my 38/16 option in spring '89). Going back to the SAC Bombing and Navigation competition in '84 it was quite clearly the dedicated preparatory work done by a hard core of VFW GIBs which laid the foundations for the victory. God it was boring to fly it though; RBSU work with a tone was like kissing your sister compared to real mud-mover range work. The only excitement for the drivers was the night tanking and 5:45 airborne was almost more than my bladder - calibrated to Harrier/Hunter sortie length - could take. Having said that, TFR-ing over the Bighorn mountains through a nest of thunderstorms was quite exciting.

The aircraft? At the time the best mud-moving FJ in the world bar none. Complaints/frustrations? Its legs were not long enough; A marriage of the F3 airframe with bigger drop tanks and the GR1 avionics, if it were possible, would have made a huge improvement. That and the complexities and limitations imposed by the R to S in the early days which meant having the wings in 67 above 400 kts if there were tanks on without o/b stores.

I referred in an earlier post to a certain VFW Nav at Cottesmore. It would be grossly unfair and inaccurate to characterise all in that way. Very many took to the tactical FJ stuff like ducks to water. My Nav did. He had a colourful turn of phrase and would encourage me with the delightful " always remember that if you **** up, the last thing that will cross your mind will be my ****hole".

Happy days and fond memories.

[The B Word]

3 Putt

It was generalised comment about a legacy mafia on a new fleet that has been supported by Wingswinger, Corporal Clott, Foldingwings and myself. I apologise for causing personal offence, that was not the intent; I'm sure you were one of the good ones, but there appears to be examples of bad ones as well (as supported by other posters comments).

All I know is that I saw a step-change in flexible tactics from the GR force by the mid 90s, flexibility that I only usually saw from the Bucc/Jag/Harrier force. But hey, what do I know as a 2,000hr AD mate? :ok:

The B Word

PS what is SIUYT?

[foldingwings]

I'm sure you were one of the good ones

Indeed, he was!

And one of the best party animals!

And one of the regular and best beer consumers!

With an outrageous sense of humour!

And a pretty damned fine golfer too - played for the RAF (or maybe even captained the RAF but my mind wanders these days!)

And, not least of all, a war veteran!

Foldie:D

[threeputt]

I guessed that you were generalising so no offence taken as I know none was meant. The issue still rankles to this day mind you.

When I got to TTTE in '84 I was amazed at how accurate the ac was and how much more time I had to look out than I thought would be the case. However, the green writing was OK as long as you kept checking that it made sense and it generally only took one main computer dump to remind one how fragile the navigational redundancy down the back could be. We ex v force nav's in the main did what we were told and tried to fly professionally and be as good a squadron mate as you could be (it was a very steep learning curve for those of us who were ex nav radars, the ex nav plotters had a bit of a head start although we were more experienced at operating the radar).

The tactics were driven by the QWIs and Flt Cdrs (mainly ex Jag and Bucc I don't think we had any "Bona mates") and tended to be sensible bearing in mind the task in RAFG which was DAY/NIGHT/IMC TFR with a modicum of VFR big formation stuff. The early emphasis was on rapid, IMC compatible plans with 4-8 ac formations and generally trundling around southern Germany looking for a fight. All good fun but, not a lot of use when the balloon went up. In the UK it was different in that there were bomb comps and tanking to be had so that allowed different personalities and backgrounds to come to the fore.

I suppose the point I allude to is that there are mafias and cliques in every force but I don't think the ex v-force w*****s were the most anally disruptive or rude.

SIUYT was derogatory statement, remembered at 1030 last night, not appropriate for this sensible forum me thinks!:=

PS. Foldwings slightly exaggerates the case as I slowed down a lot when I reached 60. I learned a lot from him though, about a lot of subjects, some to do with flying and some to do with sparrows and singing!:E

PPS. If only we had the kit that the GR4 crews have now.

Anyhoo I can't spend any more time on this as I have a golf tournament, from Majorca, to watch.

All the best

Jerry G

[threeputt]

Darren Clarke won after the Bristol lad bogied 5 of the last six holes.

Now where was I? Oh yes, B Word, when I first joined up I wanted to be an Air Defender and to be able to fight a supersonic battle of wits, only problem was after the neurological checks the doc's reckoned I could only give them half a battle......... Boom Boom!

JG:ok:

[The B Word]

3 Putt

Thanks for the info and for making it clearer. Please excuse me not giving away who I am as I have a bit more service left in me.

I always wanted to be in the RAF in the late 60s/early 70s - Vulcan would certainly have been on my preference list. I did some AVRO time on BBMF along with some of the ex-V Force types; all of them great mates.

Tornado GR4 given a hard time?

Going back to the start of the thread, the GR1 was finished by the time Gulf War 1 came along - the poor old F3 was nowhere near ready. Tasking it to fly CAPs on the Saudi/Iraq border within a week of Saddam going into Kuwait was nuts - no defensive aids, a RADAR which would not more times than it would and a missile that got about 3 miles ahead of you prior to reaching the merge! :eek: That is why the F3 took so much banter early on; once again we accepted a British aircraft into service that just wasn't finished. Even by the time Stage 1+ came along (chaff/flares and a better RADAR but no self protection jammer) we still couldn't be risked on sweep. We didn't get a decent jammer until half way through the Balkans in the mid 90s. After that things were good but the reputation of the F3 was tarnished and took another 5 years to undo. The GR never had to go through this and that is why it has a deserved reputation of doing well at what it has turned its hand to.

On the subject of reputation, we nearly made the same mistake with Typhoon recently by sending it when it wasn't quite ready. What's the common denominator? An aerospace company in the North West of the UK failing to deliver (F2/F3, GR5 and MRA4 - need I say more?) and air officers keen to get their products "blooded" so they get given a seat on the Board of the very same company. :ugh:

The B Word

[foldingwings]

B Word

the GR1 was finished by the time Gulf War 1 came along

I don't think that your timeline is quite accurate there unless you are suggesting that the GR1 was useless rather than finished!

I was Staneval (W) at Bruggen when Saddam invaded Kuwait and was tasked by the Staish to select and train the first 12 crews who were to deploy with GR1s to Bahrain on 28 Dec 90! The GR1 and those crews did deploy and the GR1 was at the forefront of the Air Assault that commenced on 17 Jan 91! GR4 was a lot later!

Foldie:ok:

[The B Word]

No, I'm suggesting GR1 was more finished than the F3 for Desert Storm and Desert Shield - ie. It was ready.

[foldingwings]

Aah! Okaaaaay!

Foldie:ok:

[Wingswinger]

(mainly ex Jag and Bucc I don't think we had any "Bona mates")

This "bona mate" was QWI on 617,14 and CWI at TWCU. I can think of three others as well. A minority, I grant you.

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

F3 was rapidly, perhaps even desperately made ready for GW1. New stick top, new programs in everything, HAVEQUICK and so on. The radio performance trials and airborne operating procedures check were done in an hour, by a first tourist - me!
I don't think we were ready,kit-wise.

[threeputt]

Sorry to have made that obviously wrong assertion. However, I was liimting my scope to the 4 Sqns at Bruggen between '85 and '97. We must know each other if you were on 14 Sqn?

Foldie, can you help me out with who he might be? Also read your PM's

3P:ok:

[Tigger_Too]

(mainly ex Jag and Bucc I don't think we had any "Bona mates")

... and there was of course the sqn cdr who kept his piss flaps on his boots throughout his GR1 tour, and presented the sqn with a picture of a Harrier when he left!!!

[foldingwings]

OK, 3P, that's 2 people who claim to have sent me PMs that haven't arrived!

Just e-mail me, mate!

Foldie

[Fishtailed]

F3 was rapidly, perhaps even desperately made ready for GW1. New stick top, new programs in everything, HAVEQUICK and so on.

Most of the mods were well on their way before the invasion, such as pilots stick, and navs hand controller, (which GR4s are now getting from the F3s), while the chaff and flare dispensers were tacked on in super quick time by the lads B word slags off:=

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

Agreed, and most of the mods just made the aircraft do what it was supposed to do. Thus they were easy to adapt to, individually. But add NVGs etc and there was no way we could be comfortable we had even the right tactics. Wiser heads than me were saying we could at least have had the switches in (e.g. fluff & chairs), so we could have been practiced at hitting the right buttons, even if the expensive stuff wasn't fitted for a while/till the balloon went up.
...and deployed NBC ops hadn't even been considered.
I still feel F3 wasn't ready.

[Lima Juliet]

Fishtale - if the chaff and flares were tacked on in super quick time so well, why, oh, why did you fit AN/ALE-40 that didn't work first time around? It wasn't until the Chemring 55mm flares were fitted with a new dispenser that it worked satisfactorly? And whilst I'm at it, pilot stick tops and nav's hand controllers are nice to haves - defensive aids are a must! :=

I still feel F3 wasn't ready

Likewise!

LJ

[glad rag]

Fishtale - if the chaff and flares were tacked on in super quick time so well, why, oh, why did you fit AN/ALE-40 that didn't work first time around?

Well they DID work until the zonally flawed wiring design/specification, IPT again, allowed ecu bay detritus to contaminate the wiring. The vinten arrangement was much more robust as was proven in service.

[Lima Juliet]

Gladrag

They may have functioned but they certainly did not work. The flares in the AN/ALE-40 were too small to offer a decent IR counter to RB199's temperature range - their J2S was insufficient to offer protection.

LJ

[Wingswinger]

3P,

I was on 14 Sqn from August '85 to August '86. I'm on the run in disarray.

[ADUX]

From the ground dwelling bottom feeding pongo perspective, the GR4 is a sound bit of kit - sorry aircraft.

Should the decision ever have been either GR4 v Harrier - No. But money had to be saved and one had to go. The GR4 was probably the better option IMO due to the fact that it does the big bomb stuff (Stormshadow), excellent ISR (RAPTOR) and yet is a capable CAS platform (PW iv and gun - and with DMS Brimstone - enough said!) - it's certainly proving its worth in Afghan particularly and also now Libya.

Furthermore, it has 2 crew which from a Forward Air Controller's perspective is key - you get to talk constantly with the Nav about the task whilst the pilot does the flying / airspace bit. With the harrier, on ops, being told to 'wait' while an aircraft or airspace snag was sorted (although acknowledged crucial) was a bind when you're in a TIC. Aircrew have a huge capacity, however, in my humble opinion, 1 x harrier mate does not equal 2 x GR4 mates - for what it's worth.

If I’m honest, LAND should have lost more in the SDSR iot save the harrier, while keeping the GR4.

[TurbineTooHot]

ADUX

On behalf of my Tonka brethren I humbly thank you for your post and hope we can continue to support land as well you deserve.

Keep it up, stay safe.

TTH

[just another jocky]

ADUX - many thanks, your words are greatly appreciated by those of us who tried to help you guys and were roundly and repeatedly told by ignorant idiots that we really weren't doing such a good job. That hurts when you've heard the bullets passing by the guy you're talking to on the radio, dropped something to try to help but then had to bugger off and got no feedback. Stay safe.

3-Putt - it was down to you and several others on 17(F) that I very quickly decided I did not want promotion and aspired to Spec Aircrew. Thanks m8 (ducks in anticipation of incoming). One of the best decisions I ever made. :ok:

Someone posted earlier the key thing for me: dioesn't matter whether we are talking Harrier, GR1/4, F3, Bucc, F4, Vulcan, Nimrod or whatever, the difference is the folk that fly and maintain them. THAT is what gives the Govt the ability to punch above its weight in the world. Imagine if we'd had F15/16/18 etc. Same probably applies to our green and dark blue brethren too.

[Easy Street]

Even if the GR4 were to retire next year, it must surely have seen more active service than any other RAF fast jet, and set a mark that will be hard to match. Next year is its 30th anniversary, and it will have been deployed on combat ops for 22 of those 30 years (and, of course, the other 8 years saw it holding strike QRA during the Cold War).

When the decision was made to send Tornado to HERRICK there was much over-dramatic grumbling that "troops will die as a result" and "Tornado can't do CAS". Hopefully those responsible have now swallowed their pride and will have the courage to admit they were wrong?

I think the key difference between the Tornado GR force, and other RAF fast-jet fleets past and present, is that the Tornado force has never believed any of its own hype (such as it ever was). It always turned up, adapted where necessary, and did the job. In doing so, it has not gained the recognition it deserves, which might be why the original poster considers that the aircraft has had a hard time. In my opinion, Tornados (of any persuasion) have never been favourites of the specialist press, which for some reason always seemed to have a love affair with the Jag. Other aircraft may have gained more public recognition, but SDSR would appear to show that the decision-makers appreciate the achievements and capabilities of the good old Tonker. Long may she continue - perhaps with pilots in both seats if WSO training really has closed once and for all!

[threeputt]

Give me a date when we flew together, if you can, so I can get the brain cells working again!

3P:ok:

[just another jocky]

3P - you have PM. :ok: