Runway slope-Jepps

[flyera343]

Hi All,

I am having a hard time finding the runway slope in percent for any given runway published in the Jeppesen charts. The threshold elevation is given, and we can calculate from there, but that takes time. Any hints? Thanks..

[AerocatS2A]

Check out the airport directory, that's where slope is listed in the Aus Jepps.

[mutt]

It's not in the international Jeppesen Airport Directory section, nor does it appear on the airport 10-9 page. I would suggest that you just enter a formula in excel with runway end elevations and runway length. It might also be worth reviewing the airports where you operate and decide if an average slope value is adequate or if you should apply the maximum slope value.

Mutt

[john_tullamarine]

.. or, indeed, whether one works with a successive set of part runway slopes matched against the T/O calculations. This latter is only of reasonable consideration if the runway centreline profile is a bit like a dog's hind leg. Fortunately, most runways are sensibly uniform (more or less) and the standard mean slope is not a bad average ...

[Denti]

Other chart supplier provide both the touch down zone slope and the average runway slope on their charts. In the case of the supplier we use it is on the approach chart in a small box with the runway info (depiction of approach lighting, runway dimensions, slope info, altitude in feet and hPa) usually between chart and profile view.

It might be possible to get the info from Jepp as well if you pay for it, if i remember we had it in our tailored airport booklets that jepp provided at some time (quite a few years ago though).

[FlightPathOBN]

The threshold elevation is given, and we can calculate from there,
if you want to simple slope from end to end, well I guess that is the best you can do,...the TCH and elevation have little to do with the first 3000' of runway...

[john_tullamarine]

If a runway is "interesting", one can obtain the centreline longitudinal section elevations from the controlling airport organisation.

In days of old for Australia, when the good old paternalistic DCA looked after aerodromes and everything else to do with aviation, this information was provided routinely to those of us who played with performance work - at least for runways having a Type A chart published.

While the mean slope is fine for reasonably uniform runways, it is a very crude and brutish solution for those with any significant centreline variations .. especially for ASDR calculations if such end up being at all critically limiting. However, overall, that approach has served the Industry reasonably well over the years.

[FlightPathOBN]

AUS has some of the best data to work with....its a tough act to follow...

[john_tullamarine]

Although many in the Industry thought otherwise, DCA, especially in the airworthiness and airports areas, had the Industry's interest at heart and did a lot of great work. Some might opine that some of this has been watered down somewhat in more recent Regulatory iterations ...

[FlightPathOBN]

worldwide, I would chose to work with AUS CASA/ASA than any other...with the RNP and GBAS, the teams solve problems and implement, rather than study ad nauseum...

[flyera343]

Thanks for the info. I had hunted high and low for at least an average slope. We were dealing with Canadian and US Jepps charts. Government and company publications had at least the average in plain sight. Obviously, in day to day operations, into familiar airports, this info is not critical. It came to light for us when getting into the brake energy charts for turnaround time with a brake temp inop. As well, in emergency situations, it could be useful. Seems strange that Jepps has left it out..except for AUS..

[flyera343]

John,
Are you thinking that this info is now not being published from the airport authorities due to regulatory concerns? Possibly liability? That they provide the elevations for each threshold and let the carriers decide how they want to use that info?

[john_tullamarine]

Australia publishes basic slope data in AIP-ERSA eg ADL (http://www.airservices.gov.au/publications/current/ersa/RDS_YPAD_10-Mar-2011.pdf) which is useful to a first approximation. To get more detailed data (where it may exist) requires an approach to the airport authority and, generally, then to the contracted surveyor folk.

Can't speak to other States but, at the end of the day, it's a pretty straightforward calculation preflight or during the TOD briefing to figure the mean slope.

[BOAC]

flyera - you don't give us much background for your operation, but in my experience IF I were operating into a 'new' airfield I would request performance pages from the company and these would have the slope annotated. How were you expecting to take-off again if you had no performance tables?

Who provides your company's airfield performance tables? I suppose there is a possibility these tables do not provide slope info, in which case I suggest you change the company!

[Helen49]

Try the AIP. Many airfields publish their overall runway slope in the runway data section. Many do not.....probably can't do the maths!

[eckhard]

Hi Flyera343,

I drew up a table for runway slope, as I too was frustrated by Jepps' lack of data in this regard.

The shaded area shows gradients in excess of 2%, which is the limit for most types.

You can download it here:

Runway Slope Table - PDFCast.org (http://pdfcast.org/pdf/runway-slope-table)

Enjoy! (But remember it assumes a uniform slope between the thresholds)

Hope this helps,
Eck

[FlightPathOBN]

For the Canadian airports, check with NavCanada (http://www.navcanada.ca/ContentDefinitionFiles/Publications/AeronauticalInfoProducts/CanadianAirportCharts/CanadianAirportCharts_current.pdf).

The charts mostlyshow only runway end elevations, but some have the slope indicated, if you ask for the The AIP data, in a Microsoft Access format, includes very detailed information such as the slope for the first 3000' of runway.

http://operationsbasednavigation.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/NavCan-chart.jpg

[flyera343]

eckhard,
Thanks for the chart, it will come in handy.

I realize that slope info is available in government charts, that unfortunately aren't available in our flightdecks. We use Jepps, the supposed gold standard. When, on a limited time turn, we entered a brake energy chart to determine minimum ground time for an MEL'd brake temp indication, we determined that the slope info is not readily available. I referred to Jepps text info to no avail. I should not need to enter a formula or pull out the computer. I thought that I had missed something, but obviously, the info isn't plainly available. My next question is why...in a publication such as Jepps...??

[john_tullamarine]

in a publication such as Jepps

caveat - I audited the Jepp runway data activity some years ago and was quite impressed by their then operation so my views may still be a tad biassed.

Unless they have changed their MO, the basic approach is to rehash State derived information. I suspect that they will have some degree of aversion to incorporating too much original work into the end document for obvious reasons.

Hence, it is likely that one limiting constraint is what sort of data may be presented by the individual State.

In any case, I would expect that any reputable operator would present additional flight deck data addressing any "deficiencies" which might reside in the Jepp volumes ...

[PantLoad]

Been awhile....can't remember....but, I'm thinking Jepps never
published runway slope, while the government charts did.

You'll have to consult other sources for runway slope. My
old airline provided this information, along with a myriad of
other tidbits, as most legitimate carriers do. (e.g. single-engine
stuff.....)


Fly safe,

PantLoad

[PT6A]

Lido has it for both touchdown zone and the average runway slope ;)

PT6A

[Denti]

Yup, didn't want to sound like a commercial, but that was what i meant above. Quite useful.

Apart from that is that information that should be on the runway weight charts if you still use paper performance. As we changed to EFB performance quite a few years ago that info is only on the charts as all performance calculations (landing and take off) are made with the EFB which in turn uses a boeing performance database which has the relevant slope and other runway data included.

[PT6A]

What software are you using for the perf Denti? Is that also Lido?

PT6A