Jetstar Singapore cabin crew

[flightasia]

WHAT IS GOING ON WITH THIS AIRLINE, its ment to be an Australia company that you could imagine they would be employing australia citizens or people with the right to work in australia on there Australia reg airline.

Surely that means when they start their duties in australia before the aircraft take off they are illegally working in the country?

can any one please give me some details of how overseas crews avoid immigration and visa's and working permit (the aircraft they are flying in is Australia reg aircraft with Australia pilots but the cabin crew are people from who know where without working permits for australia..

A lot of Jetstars Singapore base crew are not even singapore citizens, a lot of them just have a singapore working permit and are citizens of china or where ever.

I just think its a real shame that jetstar cant support Australians and employ australians.........

[Bla_Bla]

agree with posting comments and it really is a shame, however its completely legal . QF group legal team would have def found a loop HOLE somewhere in order to achieve that .
also, JET* also has airbuses reg in SIN
I do know Aussie based cabin managers that work for JET* International , based in Australia. They say that sometimes they turn up at briefing and the entire cabin crew are Thai based crew on really long trips ( 13 days ); and they are at times rostered 3 Bali return trips . OUCH !!!

[flightasia]

yes its interesting, but if they have found some loophole or grey area then that just all it is and the law needs to be changed to prevent this. Fair enough that Jetstar has its Singapore Registered aircraft crewed by Singaporeans, but an Australian reg aircraft crewed by imported staff… what a joke. I also have noted that you now never know what airline you’re getting when booking a flight, some flights I have taken have the JQ flight number but are run with a Singapore registered aircraft, So as a passenger how do you know what your booking? Are you booking with a company that is regulated by a Australia or Singapore, JetStar has done a very good job a blurring the lines. Singapore regulations are a lot less stringent then Australian. I feel that this may come down to a common law case of fraud

[qlhccforum]

Hi flightasia, hope all is well in Aisa.

Although I don't agree with foreign based crew on principle, what difference is there with the Jetstar situation with Australian registered aircraft compared with what Qantas mainline have been doing for 20 years now, first with NRT base, then BKK and AKL based crew and more recently LHR based crew.
They have been operating on Australian registered aircraft with Aussie pilots and sometimes the only Australian based cabin crew are the CSM and CSS?
On the flights with London based crew, there are often no Australian based crew.

[flightasia]

I am not familiar with what Qantas mainline is doing, but you have a point. But I feel that there may be some breach of law here when these crews (who don’t have Australian working rights) are operating on flights departing Australia. I think this issue needs to be researched extensively and if nothing else then the public should be make aware of this fact. Just when you think by flying Jetstar or maybe Qantas your supporting a Australia company and supporting Australian jobs and citizens of our great country you’re not.. You may as well fly AirAsia.

[qlhccforum]

Good luck with that, but I'm afraid the customers really don't care in general.

[flightasia]

My belief is that all Australia registered aircraft are bound by Australia law and in affect making it Australia territory, certainly when they are located within Australia waters. If anyone knows under what law foreign crew such as crew from Singapore airlines or others can clear Immigration without working permits or visa’s. Clearly this agreement is necessary for international airlines to operate but I doubt it was intended to be used to allow the hire of foreign crew on local airlines.

[LeadSled]

My belief is that all Australia registered aircraft are bound by Australia law and in affect making it Australia territory, certainly when they are located within Australia waters.Flightasia,

Your belief, like many beliefs, are exactly that, beliefs, and unrelated to the legal frameworks under which aircraft can be operated.

Australian registered aircraft, operating under an ICAO 83bis agreement between Australia and the state of Singapore, can be operated under the surveillance of CAAS.

CASA and any other Australian instrumentality cease to have power, beyond the power applicable under an Australian FAAOC for foreign airlines operating to and from Australia.

Whether tec. or cabin crew, the laws of Singapore (licensing etc.) would be the applicable laws.

This is what Qantas is increasingly doing, for a number of sound business reasons, not limited to crewing costs.

Tootle pip!!

PS: The aviation law of Singapore is ICAO compliant, without a raft of differences filed with ICAO, a la Australia.

[CFD]

Try crew travel authority (CTA) on dept immigration website. I assume this is how its done.

[cart_elevator]

Flight Asia:

The reason they can clear immigration etc without work permits is they dont live in Australia.

As someone has mentioned already, Qantas has had overseas based cabin crew operating in and out of AUS for over 20 years now.

Take the QF AKL based Longhaul cabin crew, they pax or operate to Australia, do their trip 10 odd day trip and then pax or operate home again. They live and are paid in NZ employed on a local contract, but work to CASA rules as they are operating on VH registered aircraft.

Thai crew used to do the same, Japan crew still do (but mostly operate NRT-SYD-NRT).

It wouldn't be any different for SIN/ BKK based Jetstar crew, they live and are paid in their countries, operate to Australia, and then home via whatever routes their trips dictate.

I don't agree with it, but it would be no different for Jetstar than for Qantas.

[Roger Greendeck]

So if I open a restaurant can I bring in foreign workers for a couple of weeks at a time and say that they are really foreign residents and just transiting?

[Roller Merlin]

The difference now is that a certain oz airline appears to have been operating foreign CC on essentially domestic legs, under the guise of these being "tag" flights leading to other international sectors. The recent senate enquiry has apparently been made aware of this in some form and is due to report in May. So get ready for interesting reading when this report is made public. Ministerial embarrassment is generally not taken lightly!

[DrPepz]

Flightasia, out of curiosity, which Singapore laws are less stringent than Australia?

[The Kelpie]

Roller Merlin
*
Ministerial embarrassment is generally not taken lightly!


Yes, and breaches of visa conditions occurring right under the Immigration Department's noses at the major international gateway airports where they have resident immigration officials cannot get more embarrassing for the Minister I would imagine!!

Information I have to hand suggests that a certain airline did not roster SG cc on the Tokyo flights last month as they had been doing cause they know they are breaking the law!!! Also BB told the enquiry that the SG cc do the tag flight, overnight in Melbourne and do the return tag flight the next day. Another demonstration of contempt towards the committee as the SG cc slip in a few Tokyo and return while they are here!!! BB you didn't tell senator o'brien that did you?

More definitely to follow

The Kelpie

[Taildragger67]

More definitely to follow

Mate we definitely can't wait! :ok:

[Popgun]

Fingers and toes crossed that the Senators send the pendulum swinging back the other way.

Lets hope May 2011 is the turning point on a whole raft of issues...

[flightasia]

yes it a complex issue but just because qantas may have been doing it for years does not make it correct. My personal view is if an airline wants to hire foreign crew then they should have a AOC in that country and register their aircraft in that country. It is very poor that the Australian government is supporting a australia airline to outsource their staff overseas. There is no lack of staff within australia that can carry out these duties, so the only reason Jetstar is doing this is to avoid paying australian salaries to staff and avoiding unions.

Singapore maybe ICAO compliant however ICAO rules are only a minimum requirement, so if we only want minimum requirements then fine we can drop our safety stands to that. One of the major differences with Singapore is they have far more lax standards on flight crew duty times. The other fact is Singapore is a very controlled country, so such things as media, works rights (salary and considerations). These controls and non transparency with government, make it a very desirable place for a company to hire its staff.

The fact is Australia companies are trying to compete with Asia, this is just not possible. Unless we start working, longer hours, for very low money...

[The Kelpie]

There is a fundamental difference between what Jetstar are doing and what airlines all over the world do in terms of so-called 'Tag Flights'.

No other flight within any airline in the world - not even QANTAS, as far as I am aware undertakes 2 stops in the SAME COUNTRY whilst picking up additional passengers at the first port of entry using the overseas crew.

The immigration law is simple and unambiguous. In Australia you are required to pass through immigration at your first port of entry, once you have passed through immigration, unless you are in possession of a visa that confers the right to work (Crew Travel Authority does not confer this right) and undertake work you are an illegal worker. (immigration define work as that which normally attracts remuneration).

Crew Travel authorities are specific in they allow crew to work on flights into and out of Australia only and NOT within!!

What is significant is that compliance with immigration law is a personal responsibility and in addition to the organisation who employs you being fined for each and every individual breach for employing a person wthout a valid work visa, it is particularly the individual who will come off the worst with a potential for substantial fines, exclusion from Australia for a minimum of 3 years and potentionally a jail sentence.

Overseas Crew working between Australian ports and on International flights originating in Australia you should be concerned about this and you should take this up with your manager as soon as possible.

More to Follow

The Kelpie

[DrPepz]

flightasia: Funnily enough, SQ has its crew who do SIN-PER and SIN-TPE have 24hour night stops. QF's crew regularly do SIN-PER turnarounds, as do Jetstar for SIN-PER and SIN-TPE.

For some flights which only operate 3 times, a week, SQ's SIN-TPE crew have 2 nights in TPE, for a flight time of 4:20.

SQ used to have their crew do tunarounds for PER, but many crew turned up "sick" for those flghts because they were nearly 12-13 hours from time of reporting to work to time of leaving the arrival hall in SIN.

Maybe because of the high AUD, Singapore salaries and those of just about everywhere in the world would be lower than Australia at the moment. However, Singapore has the highest salaries in Asia outside Japan (if even), so it's not exactly a low-cost labour market, and is certainly far, far more expensive than any country in South East Asia.

You also said "My personal view is if an airline wants to hire foreign crew then they should have a AOC in that country and register their aircraft in that country."

Jetstar Asia has a Singapore AOC and registers their aircraft in Singapore with a 9V code. Jetstar Asia operates 3K flights SIN-AKL with SIN-based crew using the SIN AOC.

[Warragul]

The immigration law is simple and unambiguous. In Australia you are required to pass through immigration at your first port of entry


No you don't, if you want to leave the designated "secure" area you have to clear, but you can transit .UA fly SYD-MEL with 'uncleared' passengers who go through CIQ in MEL. QF81 SYD- ADL - SIN will carry passengers from a range of flights of varied carriers between SYD- ADL - transiting in SYD not clearing CIQ. CX between ADL- MEL and BNE -CNS will have passengers from HKG beyond not clearing at first arrival port.

I believe same rules apply to crew.

UA crew do a domestic day return between SYD- MEL and CX crew will sometimes change at the final port of departure.

[Bagot_Community_Locator]

Jetstar Asia operates 3K flights SIN-AKL..... using the SIN AOC. :confused:

You sure ?

[Taildragger67]

Bagot,

From a Jetstar promo email:

Singapore-Auckland flights are operated by Jetstar Airways (JQ) for Jetstar Asia (3K).

The SIN-AKL-SIN flights operate with a 3K flight number but the airframes used are VH- registered A330s.

That is, Jetstar Asia (3K) use their SIN AOC but charter the capacity from JQ (Aus).

[insert_name]

the SIN-AKL ops are done by VH reg aircraft. see here (http://www.ifalpa.org/downloads/Level1/Recruitment%20Bans/11IND026%20Request%20for%20Mutual%20Assistance%20-%20Australia.pdf)

anyone want a job :ouch:

[flightasia]

DrPepz: You facts are not correct, qantas does not do PER-SIN-PER with out a stop over, this flight does not fall within flight and duty times for Australian standards. However in singapore this flight is fine, yes jetstar does do this but they operate it with there singapore registered aircraft, not the australia registered, they do this to avoid this law.

Also you said that jetstar has a AOC in singapore, yes it does but thats not what i am talking about with foreign crew, i am talking about the foreign crew that jetstar put on an australia registered aircraft (not the 9V).

Yes singapore may have the highest salaries in asia but there still paying a lot less then australian salaries, so whats your point? its still below australia standards on pay and conditions, and they can do what they want without clear transparency thanks to the singapore government, WHEN have you ever heard anything negative about singapore airlines from the singapore government or media?

If Jetstar wants to continue this practice then they should just register all there aircraft with foreign crew in singapore, then be upfront and honest about who your flying with a Singapore airline or an australia airline!!!

also I know that JQ is doing these tag flights, but my point is other flights even the non tag that say just depart PER for Bali or SYD Bali, are also illegal when these crews are departing on australian registered aircraft (after a stop over). It is a real gray and controversial area that jetstar has entered into, this is going to end in egg on their faces one way or another, the commit from a JQ flight attended that the current culture of jetstar is toxic in the end the company will burn its self from the inside.

[DrPepz]

flightasia: On the SIN-PER flights I have taken, (at least for the cabin crew) usually a couple of the crew would have done SYD-SIN, overnighted for one night, then fly SIN-PER-SIN turn around (QF72/QF71) then overnight, then fly SIN-SYD. I've also had crew who do SYD-PER-SIN at one shot. and SYD-PER and PER-SIN have the same flight times. They're on Aussie terms and conditions.

Jetstar's DRW base regularly do DRW-SGN turnarounds (and they're overnights) and they're on Australian terms and conditions -DRW-SGN is only 100 miles shorter than SIN-PER, so there would be virtually no difference in flight times.

SQ chooses to have their crew do nightstops in PER and TPE perhaps because they want their crew in tip top shape. Jetstar chooses not to, and some QF crew don't for the SIN-PER sector.

Oh plenty of negative press in the Singapore media on SQ. Every week there is a letter to The Straits Times on why SIA didn't treat someone properly, and as it is a national sport in Australia to bash QF, it is also a national sport in SIN to bash SQ.

The Jetstar VH aircraft that does PER-SIN is wetleased to Jetstar Asia for the day and usually does a SIN-BKK-SIN turnaround before returning to PER in the evening. So a VH aircraft is operating a SIN-BKK-SIN or SIN-PEN-SIN sector. Should Singaporeans be upset that an Australian registered aircraft is operating those sectors?

[flightasia]

you have got things very mixed up there DrPepz. The cabin crew of QF may do the PER SIN PER but the pilots dont. it is just outside australia standards.

DWN SIN DWN flights can full with-in our flying limits so this is fine.

Anyway putting all theses silly points aside my main points and facts are:

*Jetstar crew foreign crew on Australia Registered Aircraft.
*jester pays these crews less then australia standards
*these crews have no working rights in australia
*these crews overnight and are on duty the next day before clearing immigration making them illegal workers as the aircraft is australian registered and is fulls and considered as australia territory
*Any airline based in SIN is protected by singapore strict media gag laws and poor freedom of information laws

These are all facts of whats going on. My suggestion to anyone flying is to fly Virgin Blue.

[flightasia]

DrPepz, you seem offended by this? jetstar is a company that will do anything to make a bit more money, even sell out its own country and staff. Jetstar really uses its Jetstar name as an Australia airline, and buy doing this there misleading there passengers who fly on them, if the aircraft is operating under the SIN AOC then passengers should clearly know about this as there now flying with a singapore base airline who will have less rules or more flexible rules to australia.

Why is jetstar trying to mislead their passengers? why are they not clear and freely proud to be a Singapore based airlines??

DrPepz You must work for jetstar?? why dont you post your contract up on this site in the free name of transparency?

[DrPepz]

I do not work for Jetstar. I am a Singaporean who has previously worked for CAAS and Changi Airport.

If anyone should be pissed, it should be SQ. CAAS has basically allowed an Australian Airline to get a SIngapore AOC and compete with SQ in its own home terminal. SQ now has to share its air traffic rights with Jetstar and the QF Group. Through SIN's very liberal air traffic rights, QF through 3K's AOC can get neary complete 3rd and 4th freedom open skies to most of Asia, the Mid East and Europe.

These are rights SQ fought for decades, and QF now has them handed to them on a platter. When 3K starts ATH and FCO, they'll probably crush SQ's thrice weekly services to those cities.

So it's not like SQ's parent, the govt, has done them any favours. In fact, SQ's marketshare in SIN has fallen from 50% 10 years ago to 37% today, and the SIN govt has done them few favours.

However on balance the QF Jetstar SIN base is probably of net positive benefit to Singapore as a whole, while it is net negative for SQ. So thats why CAAS and Changi are quite happy with the arrangement.

Out of curiosity, are any of the Jetstar A330 Captains flying SIN-MEL and SIN-AKL Singaporeans? I think most of them are Australians posted to Singapore.

[jarden]

I took JQ23 from OOL to CNS and we had a lot of SIN crew only 1 Aussie as I asked where are they from. We had about 10 crew on the A330 for just 66 passengers. Would have been an easy flight for them to manage. All crew went on a mini bus to their hotel after we arrived so they were not continuing on to NRT.

[Worrals in the wilds]

So if I open a restaurant can I bring in foreign workers for a couple of weeks at a time and say that they are really foreign residents and just transiting?

Word on the ramp is that at least one Australian aviation company is doing exactly that with foreign LAMEs.
Dunno if it's true or not.

[skybed]

The only reason J Asia has been given an Singaporean AOC is that 51% isowned by a singaporean. As minority shareholder J* thinks there are running the show but if it gets tricky the 51% singaporean owned will please the singapore government.
Tiger is a wholy owned subsidery of SQ and Australia is the only place in the world where a foreign airline can set up a subsidery.:ugh:

[stubby jumbo]

On the subject of JQ cabin crew (slightly off thread)

I was chatting to a newbie JQ Casual F/A the other day. All the usual things we know like you have to pay for your accom and food during 4 weeks training in Melbourne then you are given $1,000 on passing ....fair enough:hmm: we've discussed this before !

BUT....the real stinker is a Casual JQ F/A has to be available to work for 22 days of the month. You only get 12 hours notice of a duty in that 22 days. How can you get a second / part time job This person has only been given 9 days work in 3 months.

How is this ethical? How can young people pay rent, but food, get a loan ?

Geeze-I thought QF crew were disengaged. This lady has only been with JQ for 4 months and already the venom is pouring out.

My advice= LEAVE NOW :mad::mad::mad:

[flightasia]

another point that i have not mentioned yet is that fact that the large majority of these "singapore base crew" are not singapore citizens, there mainly from surrounding 3rd world countries. The majority of these crews speak very poor english. I just wonder if Jetstar did a risk assessment on this. It is clearly established by Geert Hofstede that your national culture really has a large impact on an organisations safety. All these national culture influences such as power distance, uncertainly avoidance, individualism vs collectivism, all these factor these 3rd world crew members will likely have an individual impact on the safety of the airline. Jetstar does not take safety seriously, tiger the same, airasia that same. The terrible fact of these low cost airlines is they are trying to increase there market share but the fact is its a false market in a lot of cases, your getting people that dont really need to fly flying on these airlines just because the ticket was cheap. if the ticket was not cheap then they would not have travelled at all. This is a false market driven by low prices and how sustainable is it?

And please not get me wrong, I totally love singapore and have really enjoyed living there over some years, its a great city with some great people.

[LeadSled]

No other flight within any airline in the world - not even QANTAS, as far as I am aware undertakes 2 stops in the SAME COUNTRY whilst picking up additional passengers at the first port of entry using the overseas crew.

Kelpie,

Once again, not correct, if the foreign airline has fifth freedom ioghts between the domestic ports, all quite above board. For may years, Air India and BA (BOAC) carried domestic traffic between Sydney and Perth/Darwin variously.

Flightasia,
With all due respect, you are living in a fantasy of your own construction.

Tootle pip!!

[The Kelpie]

Leadsled

Thank you for your post. As far as I was aware Fifth Freedom Rights, also referred to as 'beyond rights', allows an airline to carry revenue traffic between foreign countries as a part of services connecting the airline's own country. It is the right to carry passengers from one's own country to a second country, and from that country to a third country (and so on).

An example of a fifth freedom flight is an Emirates flight originating in Dubai, then going on to Brisbane, Australia, and then from Brisbane to Auckland, New Zealand, where tickets can be sold on any or all sectors, and in the reverse direction if flights are offered.

Since when did the fifth freedom allow allow subsequent stops in the same country which is what I said in my earlier post??

I welcome any feedback as to why my understanding may not be correct in this case.

Cheers

The Kelpie

[QueenBuzzzzz]

I'm confused... Qantas operate SYD - LAX - JFK... is that what you mean Kelpie?

[Mud Skipper]

QueenBuzzzzz,

It's my understanding that here at Qantas we can not sell local seats just KLAX-KJFK and back, the passengers must have originated or be heading outside of the USA.

[Animalclub]

It's an old story.
If QF carries them into LAX (or whereever in USA) QF can carry them on to JFK (or another port in USA) at a later date. QF cannot carry pax originating in LAX for JFK.
I'm not sure about staff or travel agent travel nowadays but in years past this travel has been allowed - I did it from SFO to JFK v.v. several times.

[runesta]

jetstar is a company that will do anything to make a bit more money, even sell out its own country and staff.

flightasia maybe you need a reality check. Which Australian company hasn't done this yet? Jetstar is not the first, not the only, and won't be the last to do so.

if you don't like things as they are then walk with your feet.