SINGLE PILOT OPS [Archive]

pilottom10

24th Mar 2002, 23:17

Hi there, could someone give an answer to the following.. .AS a recent qualifier of a frozen ATPL under the new JAA system I have 250 hours(just a novice). I had considered flying for an air taxi firm as a single pilot operation. Someone told me that I would not be considered as I would be required to have at least 500 hours. Is this a operational requirement or is it for insurance purposes. It seems strange that i could go off and do a type rating and fly as co-pilot with my current hours. Just looking for a little enlightenment with this one. The aircraft concerned are light twin piston engine up to max 9 persons.. .. .Thanks for you attention.

Tinstaafl

25th Mar 2002, 03:15

Depends on the company & their operations.. .. .It's often said that single pilot m/e IFR carries one of the highest workloads - especially compared to two pilot ops.. .. .By way of an example, Loganair specifies 1500 hrs for their Islander operations but only about 250-300 for co-pilot positions on the turboprops.

FL245

25th Mar 2002, 04:33

You are correct, under jar-ops single crew AOC holders pilots are required to have 750 hours TT.. .. . <blockquote>quote:<hr /> It seems strange that i could go off and do a type rating and fly as co-pilot with my current hours. Just looking for a little enlightenment with this one. The aircraft concerned are light twin piston engine up to max 9 persons.. .<hr /></blockquote>waitingforclearance, do not be misled, as Tinstaafl says, single crew ops IS the most demanding flying you will ever do.. .. .You are right, you can skip off, do a type rating and fly a a first officer in a big jet, but remember the guy to your left is rather experienced and on many occasion he will fish you out when you get yourself in a tricky position.. .. .In single crew, its you and only you. With your current experience do you think you could command a multi engine piston aircraft with 8 pax from Manchester to Heathrow? Flying these type of aircraft on AOC work is a serious job and generally not fully understood by those who have never done it.. .. .FL245

pilottom10

26th Mar 2002, 02:42

THANKS FOR ALL THE SUPPORT YOU GUYS GIVE........ .. .I HEAR WHAT YOUR SAYING ABOUT THE WORK LOAD AND I COULDN'T AGREE MORE.. .BUT THE AGE OLD QUESTION IS ASKED WHERE DO YOU BUILD THE EXPERIENCE. I DON'T THINK THE GUY WHO HAS FLOWN AN EXTRA FEW HUNDRED HOURS IN A CLUB OR SHARED OWNERSHIP SINGLE IS ANY BETTER PLACED TO DEAL WITH THE WORKLOAD. FLYING VFR IN YOUR LOCAL TERRITORY WITH YOUR MATES FOR COMPANY IS NOT REALLY ANY IMPROVEMENT, IN FACT IT WOULD ACTUALLY HAVE THE AFFECT OF DILUTING ANY TRAINING TO DATE. . .THIS IS ONE OF THE REASON WHY THE JAR LICENCES WERE BROUGHT ABOUT, SO THAT THE CLUB FLYERS ACTUALLY TOOK PROPER COURSES.. .IN RESPECT OF THE TAXI WORK, I EXPECT THAT YOU WOULD NOT BE LET LOOSE ON UNSUSPECTING PEOPLE RIGHT AWAY. IM SURE THERE ARE OTHER DUTIES THAT A NEW RECRUIT COULD CARRY OUT.. .I UNDERSTAND YOU MAY BE PROTECTIVE TO YOUR PLACE AS SINGLE PILOT IFR GUYS BUT SURELY YOU SHOULD BE ENCOURAGING PEOPLE LIKE ME WHO ARE NOT LOOKING TO WALK STRAIGHT INTO JET JOBS/MULTI CREW.. .. .HOW ABOUT SOME ENCOURAGEMENT ON THESE PAGES FOR A CHANGE.. .. .TOO MUCH DO I SEE PEOPLE TRYING TO PUT OTHERS DOWN. I KNOW ITS COMPETETIVE BUT YOU ONLY FAIL YOURSELF, NOT BECAUSE OF SOMEONE ELSE.. .. .THANKS FOR THOSE WHO HAVE REPLIED SO FAR.. . . . [ 25 March 2002, 22:46: Message edited by: waitingforclearance ]

Pilot Pete

26th Mar 2002, 03:42

waitingforclearance. .. .Not trying to mock, but if you had 'considered flying single crew for an air taxi outfit' why did you not check to see if you were qualified for it?. .. .You also said. .. .'IN RESPECT OF THE TAXI WORK, I EXPECT THAT YOU WOULD NOT BE LET LOOSE ON UNSUSPECTING PEOPLE RIGHT AWAY. IM SURE THERE ARE OTHER DUTIES THAT A NEW RECRUIT COULD CARRY OUT.'. .. .Like what? Flight Ops? Tea making? Plane washing? Air taxi outfits are small operations with minimal staff to keep the costs down. They cannot afford to take on a pilot to do anything other than fly their aeroplanes and make them money, so you are wrong to 'suspect that you would not be let lose on unsuspecting people' (I guess you mean pax?) Did you ask the captain of the last flight you got on what experience he had? No? Why? Because you trusted that he was qualified and met the legal minimums laid down by the authority. The same applies to air taxi pilots. I, like FL245 did the job with low hours. I had less than 300TT when I went into Heathrow in a C404 with 9 pax, but I was both qualified and capable in the eyes of the chief pilot and the authority. It comes down to personalities and attitude, yeah sure more experience would have made me better, a lot better, but I met the minimums.. .. .If you want to know where to get hours, do a search, it's all been covered numerous times before. Instructing has to be the best way to get to 750hrs to then go try air taxi. . .. .As for this paragraph;. .. .'I UNDERSTAND YOU MAY BE PROTECTIVE TO YOUR PLACE AS SINGLE PILOT IFR GUYS BUT SURELY YOU SHOULD BE ENCOURAGING PEOPLE LIKE ME WHO ARE NOT LOOKING TO WALK STRAIGHT INTO JET JOBS/MULTI CREW.. .. .HOW ABOUT SOME ENCOURAGEMENT ON THESE PAGES FOR A CHANGE.'. .. .Nobody is being protective, just giving you viewpoints in answer to the questions you raised and a little extra info about single crew ops. Encouragement? You can not be reading Wannabes at all if you think that all people do is knock the efforts of others. Try the search and you'll see several people including the moderators and myself offering encouragement, tempered with a little bit of reality.. .. .If you are serious about single crew work you need to be looking a lot deeper into it and showing more resourcefulness coupled with determination, nobody owes anyone a job in this industry, and when it comes down to single crew work..........you really are on your own.. .. .As ever though, good luck.. .. .PP

pilottom10

27th Mar 2002, 00:37

THANKS TO THOSE WHO HAVE WROTE UNDER THIS TOPIC. . .. .THANKS FOR THE ENLIGHTENMENT AND THE SHARED KNOWLEDGE.. .. .I HOPE THE MODERATOR WILL NOW CLOSE THIS TOPIC FOR ME.. .. .THANK YOU. .TOM....... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="smile.gif" />

Irish Steve

27th Mar 2002, 02:56

[ <blockquote>quote:<hr /> Instructing has to be the best way to get to 750hrs to then go try air taxi. . . <hr /></blockquote>And since when has several hundred hours hacking round the circuit in a 152 done anything to improve the skills needed to fly single crew IFR in a "complex" multi engine aircraft? Yes, instructing builds hours, but there are times when the quality of flying done in those hours has to be questioned when the end result required is more complex. . .. .Equally, there is a risk that too much time in the local circuit in low performance singles can cause problems that are only evident when the transition to higher performance complex multi types is made.. .. .I'm not trying to say that instructing is wrong per se, more that it's not the be all and end all to this question, just a route that's been used of necessity over a number of years.. .. .I've done a reasonable amount of single crew IFR in multi's, as a result of some very good training, but even that was no guarantee of work, and Saddam and Bin Laden have made it even harder!. .. .Air taxi is demanding, it's often into airfields that are marginal for the type, and with sometimes fewer and less accurate approach facilities than those available to the commercial operators of scheduled services, and that all adds to the workload. Add to that client pressure, and bad weather, and that can rapidly become another accident statistic.. .. .I don't have the answer, but I am equually convinced that we have to be very careful in the way we approach this issue.

FlyingForFun

27th Mar 2002, 13:09

Just out of interest, how does the pay compare for single-crew work, as opposed to, say, the right hand seat of a 737? Although the work is more demanding on the pilot, and requires a more experienced pilot, instinct tells me the financial rewards for these hard-working pilots probably doesn't reflect this - is this correct?. .. .FFF. .---------

Pilot Pete

31st Mar 2002, 20:41

Irish Steve

Perhaps I should have clarified what I meant by 'best way'. Obviously 750hrs spent flying twins in and out of large and small airfields in IFR and VFR experiencing icing conditions, technical failures, weather down to minimums etc etc would be the best experience in preparation for a single crew air taxi pilot job, but bearing in mind that the newbie with the fresh CPL/IR is usually lacking in one major department; cash. I would therefore change the wording to clarify that in my opinion the most realistic way that someone is going to get up to the required minimum hours to even apply for the job has got to be flying instruction. Someone else is then paying for the hours and I agree that the quality of those hours is not ideal, but let's face it Wannabes need to do anything and everything to get themselves employable. They should of course be looking to pick up as many twin hours as they can whilst instructing.

I agree about the demands of the job but this is not an ideal world so Wannabes cannot expect to get 750hrs in piston twins before applying to air taxi outfits. Don't knock the flying instructor route too much, it's like all other branches of this business; it has it's good and bad. I've met both and had the pleasure to meet once again an old friend who went instructing when I went air taxi..............we're both in the rhs of 757's, starting on the same day, and I still look up to him. 1000hrs in a 152 made him an excellent pilot.

I think it is more to do with attitude and ability. An excellent flying instructor will probably make a decent air taxi pilot, a bad one most certainly won't. Equally, a low hours pilot can make just as good a jet F/O as an ex-air taxi pilot if he has the attitude and ability. It's a case of making up for your lack of experience. Bear in mind plenty of experienced guys aren't as good as we'd like to believe.

PP

OzExpat

31st Mar 2002, 23:00

Pilot Pete is right. I can't think of any way for a sprog to build the required hours faster than by instructing. And, until you've done it, you won't appreciate just how much more you can learn for yourself from it.

Tinstaafl

1st Apr 2002, 11:54

Instructing has advantages of its own.

You get to see - and learn from - a wider variety of mistakes than just your own.

You get an early introduction to working with another crew member.

You can gain experience on a wide variety of a/c types.

You can move up the instructor ladder gaining various approvals that can be useful in a future airline job eg CP or Deputy CP approvals, TRI/TRE/IRI/IRE, writing manuals & training syllabi etc etc.

You can gain many useful contacts.

You can make lifelong friends.