Ruckus on Jetstar Aircraft

[Warm Ballast]

From today's 'Sunday Tasmanian' -
A JETSTAR flight was cancelled and four or five passengers detained by Australia Federal Police last night after an argument over luggage escalated into a shouting match.

Jetstar spokeswoman Andrea Wait confirmed that Jetstar flight JQ724, from Hobart to Sydney, had been delayed then cancelled and rearranged after an argument between staff and a few passengers.

"An argument between staff and multiple passengers about oversized baggage become heated, and the passengers were asked to leave the plane," Ms Wait said.

"The passengers continued to argue with staff but were eventually removed and were detained by police."

Ms Wait said Jetstar was forced to reschedule the flight for 9am today as the pilot had exceeded his daily flying hours by the time the situation was resolved.

"We were unable to reschedule the flight this evening as the pilot had already reached his allotted hours for the day, but we have organised another flight for them in the morning."

A passenger on the plane, who was identified only as Malcolm, said the 7.30pm flight was delayed by almost 45 minutes while a group of businessmen and staff had a heated argument over luggage.

"Before we boarded, there was an argument between Jetstar staff and about four or five passengers," Malcolm said.

"The argument then reignited when these passengers boarded the plane and a scuffle ensued between them and staff."

The passenger compared the scuffle to a rugby scrum, but said nobody had been hurt.

"I think they were trying to bring an oversized bag onto the plane after they had been told they couldn't, and next thing you know they were shouting their heads off," he said.

"That was followed by a bit of pushing and shoving."

Jetstar organised overnight accommodation for passengers who were not from Hobart and it was believed the passengers forced off the plane would not be flying out on today's rescheduled flight.

[Mr. Hat]

I back Jetstar on this one. Read the fine print.

If you think you are going to go a-b "low cost" and also get big/heavy bags on at no extra cost you are going to be disappointed.

If you are going to travel on a low cost carrier you have to be willing to inform yourself of what the catches are. There are no free rides, there is no such thing as low cost. You pay indirectly for less convenience (bags/fees etc) less back up in a disrupt and possibly an 18 year old in the RHS, imported cabin crew amongst other treats.

As for those that think they can shout, scream or abuse others in the presence of other fare paying passengers (with children) my attitude is:

Get the AFP to throw them on the concrete if needed. Zero tolerance.

[Sunstar320]

Yes but ground crew should have really not let these ferals past the boarding gate.

[Mr. Hat]

Correct Sunstar but it didn't happen and what followed sounds pretty unacceptable in front of other unsuspecting fair payers and staff trying to earn an honest dollar.

[Keg]

What are the choices HBA-SYD? One true LCC and another LCC that is trying to move upmarket. Not much of a choice!

[peuce]

From the details posted, it doesn't appear that being a "Hi-Cost" or "Low-Cost" carrier had anything to do with it.

I'm sure trying to bring on an oversized piece of carry-on luggage onto a QANTAS aircraft would elicit an identical response ... NO.

[QSK?]

Lets face it, there is a fundamental problem of perception with the "zero up front, pick-your-pocket" LCC modelI don't think the extra cost is the issue in most cases (no pun intended).

I think most passengers now carry oversized bags into the cabin simply because they can't be bothered spending the extra time waiting for their luggage at the destination airport carousel.

The number of times I've seen passengers trying to stuff obviously oversized wheeled suitcases into the overhead lockers is mind boggling, resulting in the flight attendants then having to take the suitcase "somewhere down the back".

I am amazed that the airlines and/or CASA don't enforce the cabin luggage requirement as they are scanning the boarding passes (have you seen anyone use those "acceptable luggage racks" that are stationed at every airport departure lounge?) as some of these bags would represent a serious safety hazard in the event of a crash landing and the overhead lockers sprung open disgorging suitcases everywhere.

Can anyone give a reason why the airlines don't enforce the cabin baggage requirement more stringently? Is it because they are scared they will lose customers if they are too diligent?

[breakfastburrito]

peuce, perhaps the question is why they were trying to bring on the oversize piece?

I'll hypothesise it was because if it went below, there would be a significant monetary penalty, probably vastly more than would be the case on a "High Cost" carrier. Pure speculation.

Keg, I believe that QF mainline still operates into HBA, I'm sure the frequency is a lot lower than for the LCC's.

[Mr. Hat]

Fair point Keg.

Still doesn't give people the right to carry on like A grade idiots. Was Hobart Sydney (direct) originally QF? If J* weren't doing it these days would there be anyone doing it at all?

[ANCDU]

QF still do SYD-HBA, MEL-HBA and i think just resumed BNE-HBA, but nowhere near the frequency of its big brother J*. Oversize baggage will become a bigger problem with automated checkin, there is no one to check the size of bags until the pax are basically boarding, and everyone tries to sneak in oversized bags these days. Half the delays are caused by people trying to find a spot for their "hand" luggage!

[Keg]

I just had a look at our schedule. A daily SYD-HBA departing SYD at 1405. I wonder how well it's doing given the time of day. :rolleyes: :ugh: J* has two direct flights- 0725 and 1715.

I agree Hat. Lack of choice doesn't give people an excuse to abuse staff, be disruptive, etc.

[oneday_soon]

LCC, Full Service or in between. I never understand when "some' of the general public walk through the automatic doors of an airport terminal, they turn into complete irrational, arrogant, ignorant bottom feeders and think that it is acceptable to treat airline staff like crap because they don’t like the rules.

Believe me, having money and flying Qantas doesn’t exclude you from being feral. I have seen plenty of wealthier business travellers be feral, J* pax don’t have the market cornered on that one.

[Cactusjack]

The fact is that this sort of incident is indicataive of the way some members of society have become nothing less than unruly maggots. The decline in the standards and attitudes of people in general is reflected in stories like this sadly. People are becoming more viscious in nature, selfish, uncaring and indifferent towards other humans.
Regardless of what my personal views are of Jetstar, its baggage policies or anything of the like, some people are turning into pathetic feral parasites.
Furthermore, after 6 or 7 years of operating if the public still dont understand how excess baggage costs and or understand that after -30 you won't get on the flight then it only proves that some people are stupid, dumb, braindead inbreds and are incapable of tying their shoe laces or wiping their own sweaty ass.

[Mr. Hat]

Yep, its the softly softly approach we have in this country to assault and general crime that breeds this kind of behaviour. My opinion? One strike you're out - Forever. We don't need you as the rest of the people are going about their business in an educated fashion.

Bring back the old values. Where is military service when you need it? Where is respect these days? Have you ever noticed how few young men don't offer their seats to women or elderly on the train or bus? Its a disgrace. I've lived in countries where a teenager wouldn't dare occupy a seat ahead of an elder. If they did a dressing down was guaranteed. Here the problem starts at school where even if you fail you still proceed to the next "grade". Why call it "grade" when you haven't met the grade just call it "near enough".

Discipline isn't a bad thing you know.

[Baumy]

Half the delays are caused by people trying to find a spot for their "hand" luggage! I agree with ANCDU. I was coming back from BNE-MEL on Friday night, and there was a delay because of people trying to find hand luggage, as well as a seat double/triple booking (I'm not sure which). People were bringing on hand suitcases AND laptops in many cases and it just doesn't work. We were brakes off about 15 minutes late due to this. People were just walking up and down the aisle trying to find space which there wasn't. I don't understand why people don't put things under the seats in front of them if there's no space, especially things like laptop.

[givemewings]

Sadly in many cases it comes down to $$$$

Lost count of the number of times I'd snag an oversize bag either at the gate (if boarding) or onboard, send it to the ground crew and they'd either say they didn't have the manpower to do it (one of them had to be present for boarding & couldn't take it to the hold) the cargo hold was "already closed" or *I* would incur the delay to the cabin crew if they took the bag underneath (haha fat chance & nice try love)

The other 'excuse' would be them trying to tell me that this pax was a Platinum FF or whatever & I shouldn't upset them. Mate, I don't give a stuff if you're ALan Joyce, if your bag is too big it's too damn big!!!

The problem is the same with airlines outside of Oz. I wanted to offload a bag which I guessed easily weighed in the 20kg range the other day, the ground staff couldn't give a toss so what did the in-charge do? Took it & stowed it in business class as the pax was a high-tier FF!!!! :ugh:

Your head cracks the same when hit by a massive bag in turbulence whether you fly once a year or every day!!!

Madness. Someone is going to be killed one day & when they are CASA & the airlines are going to cop it for negligence.

If you're too cheap to pay excess baggage fees for all your :mad: then you shouldn't be flying.

[Mr. Hat]

The usual suspect: Bare bones staff and resources affecting safety and causing disruption. Buck passing and KPI pressures another great feature.

[Captain Nomad]

Reintroduce the ERJ-145. That will make the punters really happy (remember the locker space on those?)!

[Oakape]

When they started charging bus fare (& calling pilots overpaid bus drivers), they attracted a whole different class of customer.

You reap what you sow.

Thanks O'Leary.

[knightflyer]

I agree with all of the above but - take away the $10 baggage charge and make the prices the same so you don't have the tight asses trying to save a buck by cramming everything into a suitcase they hope will get past checkin. The same price regardless, bags or not, the way it used to be. Also start enforcing bag sizes, a check rack at the checkin counter that all carry on bags must be placed in, another 10 seconds per pax, with the line ups already there it would make no difference. Some of the flights I've been on I'm amazed the overhead lockers haven't broken off with the weight of bags in them, people struggling to lift their bags up and into the locker, jeez at times it's scary.
Oh and one other off topic thing while I'm having my rant, #$$^%&& that don't turn off their phones, if you catch 'em take 'em outside and shoot 'em.

[neville_nobody]

This whole issue can be killed off if they just put a cutout of the standard cabin bag dimensions on security xray machines like they do in the US. That way security can tell them that the bag is oversized and to go check it in. It will save the airline personnel then telling them later on. That way all passengers of all airlines are treated the same.

[Oakape]

They often have security personnel before security at the Brisbane international terminal, checking hand luggage. They check size as well as weight & they are quite ruthless.

I've sometimes thought they were a little over zealous in the performance of their duties & have had the odd argument regarding the weight of my flight bag when in civies, but perhaps more of this might go some of the way to solving the problem

[Stationair8]

Valid point givemewings.

Lets see travelled on the bogan bus last Friday, bogan #1 complete with oversized backpack, pillow and doona climbs aboard and starts trying to find a space for its belongings. Bogan #2 arrives on board and tries to find its seat, pretty easy really row 1 starts at the front of the bogan mover and row 30 is at the back, not reall tricky and the seat number's do run in sequential order, not for this fruitcake we get on at the front and fight our way down to the back, and then we start to organise the locker to fit our backpack which weighs at least 20kgs-before anyone disputes the figure I know exactly how much it weighed because it landed on headed not once but f3cking twice. The reason it finished up on top me was because the overheaded locker is only a certain size and therefore no about of grunting, pushing or shoving was going to make it fit. Bogan #3 arrives 5'6'' but with a backpack the same size, but as she does a three point turn in the aisle she promptly smacks the old dear across from me into the middle of next week, as she swings the backpack up into the locker!

[cficare]

doubt the cancellation was a crew duty time issue...more likely sydneys curfew....

[Arnold E]

I find it most interesting that most people here do not support the customer. Now you might ask, why I would ask such a question, well without the customer you people ( read pilots) have no job, I will say that again, since it is clear that there are some, shall we say, slow people here, without the traveling public there would be a very much reduced requirement for pilots and, ofcourse. all the other people that make aviation happen. In my experience, I have found as many, shall we say, "tossers" that are pilots,aircraft and airline owners and operaters as I have found "tosser" customers.
Just sayen.

[Mr. Hat]

The customers got their flight cancelled because of people that can't control themselves.

The customers paid for a ticket to go from a-b and got a free circus act thrown in.

Actually I think I'm pretty much on the side of the customer just not that of the ones that can't behave like adults.

[Arnold E]

Well you may be right, but, if I was walking down a street looking for a cafe to have a meal and I was told by a spruiker that the meals inside were, say, $10 then I went inside and had a meal and found it was $20, I think I would feel justified in complaining loudly.
Just sayin'

[blueloo]

well without the customer you people ( read pilots) have no job

its one of those circular arguments, really isn't it?


"tossers" that are pilots

and to continue the argument - shall we say full circle.... or part thereof...


"Without those tosser pilots...... "yuse bogans" would still be travelling on a greyhound bus...or if yer really lucky....the Titanic "

[Ultralights]

did the said arguing pax get an invoice for the cost of accom and rescheduling due to their actions?

[Arnold E]

would still be travelling on a greyhound bus.
If ya want to get anywhere in a hurry, take a bus.:p

[Mr. Hat]

Sure but Jetstar and the others have very clear policies in black and white written on their website on the emails they send on the ticket. Its not a trick I found it pretty clear.

I understand what you're saying but ultimately its up to the person buying the ticket to check what the catch is or if there is one. A mini due diligence before hitting the pay button. No point then fronting up hoping for the best and losing it when it goes as per the details on the website!

Then ruining everybody's day by having some sort of a spack attack!

[Worrals in the wilds]

I find it most interesting that most people here do not support the customer.

I've dealt with enough pax to populate Toowoomba in a variety of aviation related jobs. Most pax (say 95%) are perfectly reasonable human beings. The remainder are an absolute bloody nightmare, and it's the remainder that we hear about in the media and on here.

Aside from giving staff the :mad:s, this remainder also annoy, inconvenience and compromise the safety of the decent pax. These are the people that turn up drunk with overweight luggage that they'll stuff into overhead bins so it dongs someone on the head at the other end, that fail to comply with even basic safety directives and basically ruin everyone else's day.

"I think they were trying to bring an oversized bag onto the plane after they had been told they couldn't, and next thing you know they were shouting their heads off," he said.
"That was followed by a bit of pushing and shoving."


How on earth is this acceptable behaviour? I know PPRuNe can turn into a bit of a bitchfest because we all need to vent about difficult passengers, but this is above and beyond being a disgruntled customer. Unlike a bar or restaurant, you can't throw troublemakers out the door at altitude (unfortunately :E) and there are no coppers 10 minutes away. People who behave like a pack of chimpanzees on the ground should not be trusted to go the distance on a flight.

IMHO over the past fifteen years there has been far too much latitude in what constitues acceptable behaviour for an airline pax and we are all now reaping the whirlwind.

[Catwalk Dweller]

"Can anyone give a reason why the airlines don't enforce the cabin baggage requirement more stringently? Is it because they are scared they will lose customers if they are too diligent?"

I have to say, that every time that I've flown internationally out of SYD I have always had my carry-on checked by the ticket counter personnel.

Perhaps it depends on the location, and the emphasis that folks there place on this - other locations haven't given me the same scrutiny.

[givemewings]

The issue here is not that the bags were oversized but the way those passengers chose to react to being told they could not bring on their bags.

They chose to abuse/intimidate staff and other pax. IF the part about pushing/shoving is true then damn well good on Jetstar for refusing carriage. In my opinion once you have touched the staff in an abusive way you can damn well swim to the mainland!!! It is NEVER acceptable!! You wouldn't do it in a bar to the bouncer and expect to stay, now would you?

I'm not sure about now but last time I flew with Jetstar they had a hand luggage system where they would approve the size and tag the hand luggage at check in. At the gate if it didn't have a tag it didn't get on- no exceptions. This worked well and the staff didn't feel pressure to make exceptions as the policy was clear and had been decided by someone else (with a scale) that th bag was ok or not.

IF this model is still operating then my guess is the pax DIDN'T have tags and kicked off when told their bags would not be coming onboard.

Policing the size of check-in bags ONLY works when

a) pax check in with a human being and

b) when the pax actually bring the bag to the counter, instead of getting Auntie Mabel to watch it round the corner, out of sight, as they KNOW it's too big. That's not trying to save a buck that's trying to sneak round rules that are there for SAFETY.

Damn straight I side with the passengers- the ones who do not deserve to put up with bs like this and did the right thing by listening to the rules.

CASA and the airlines need to grow a backbone & deal with this, asap before someone gets hurt. I've been very lucky to narrowly avoid being clonked by bags on a couple of occasions, which should never have been there in the first place.

The setup at BNE sounds like what used to also happen at Perth ITB, sadly last time I passed through there the "bag Nazi" was no longer there. One guy they had was so onto the "I'll go to the toilet & pretend I've been back to check in" trick for too-heavy bags that I once saw him send the same woman back FOUR times as she wasn't actually going to check her bag in at all!

I guess they don't want to pay for that extra person any more. FWIW, I've been to the US several times in the last few months and haven't seen anything that measures bag size at the x-ray, are you talking domestic only??

[BrissySparkyCoit]

On a different note, was traveling BNE-MEL last week up front on QF. Got on early. Plenty of suits stopping to use the business class overhead lockers before proceding to economy class seats.

Poor buggers. GFC has forced their companies to cut costs and fly them in economy but they'll be damned if their bags are going economy too!!

[Jabawocky]

Solution

All airlines contribute to a national advertising campaign something along the lines of ..................SAFETY.

The federal gov't has introduced new laws requiring all cabin baggage to fit this size/shape gauge, by 1st of December 2011 ALL PASSENGERS will have to comply. Failure to comply will result in the items being confiscated and become federal government property and disposed of along with all your nail cutters and knitting needles.

There will be no exceptions.

And then do it. zero tolerence no matter who you are.

It pi$$es me off when I take a soft backpack style laptop bag, that fits nicely and some moron with a wheeled "overnight case" jams said bag into the locker with the wheels trying to puncture my laptop screen from the outside :mad:.

Enough is enough:ugh:

[Mr. Hat]

Nobody is interested in safety because accidents never happen. Have a look around during the safety demo. Not even with QF32 will you manage to convince people. "The chances of it happening to me are..."

[newsensation]

While ever they advertise and sell cheaper fares for carry on luggage only, you will always get passengers struggling with over weight, oversized bags in the cabin.

[S70IP]

All,

I have travelled extensively in the United States and trust me what we have to deal with in Australia is a mouse poo sized issue compared to the United States. Many flights that I have been on in the US involves starting the boarding process for a 737-800 at push back -40. Passengers bring on there huge "carry on" bags and the lockers are chockers. Boarding in 4 or 5 groups depending upon a number of factors such as how much you paid for the ticket, frequent flyer, etc.

It has become the norm over there, part of the culture of air travel. With the delays, changes, oversold flights, standby system, everything means the traveller must remain flexible. The old rule is never get separated from your baggage. You can chop and change as you get stuffed around.

Strict enforcement of a policy, a law, a term and condition will mean that it will become acceptable, the norm.

Australia has 23 million people. The US 300 million. We need continued investment in infrastructure and fair and reasonable rules that give the customer, and employees the powers to enforce their rights and obligations.

The average Australian "Bogan" now travels often enough to now what he or she can get away with. Stop hiding fees and hidden extras. Keep the airfare system simple. Simple, just like the people that pay for the ticket.

[airtags]

Jabba has correctly identified it - unless there is an across the board direction for all domestic airlines to comply with a fixed carry on limit then it will be a case of each airline waiting for their competition to impose the draconian rule.

The pax mantra is check in nothing, carry on everything, get on early and claim the locker space. If seated in economy, put your bag in biz class locker as you walk through.

While wating for my flight yesterday I watched a CC boarding pax in Syd get 'overuled' and the passenger then carried on a largish wheelie and two other duffle type bags.

It is first and foremost a safety issue and I really wonder how a 737-400 can be safe with just one CC down the back during boarding and all those pax just leaving the bags in aisle for the CC to sort out when there is no overhead space.

Actually for the CASA watchers: - how many covert audits have been done in connection with this issue? (observed from the last row)

AT

[breakfastburrito]

I appreciate all the "do the right thing" sentiment, unfortunately it is naive view of the new realities.

The whole point of the LCC model is to break the transaction into as many components as possible over as long a period as possible - in effect, give the passenger the illusion of a cheap flight. Airlines then proceed to claw back the full fare via nickel & diming. It is more profitable for the airline as the costs are lower (Spartan service), yet they end up extracting the same money in other ways out of the customer. People salivate over cheap or free (getting something for nothing mentality) - yet can't see the ultimate cost. It is just a marketing device.

It is perfect for business that do a lot of travel, they have a win here, as they get there the cheap seat, then throw the full fare costs (drinks, meals, non online check-in, luggage etc) back on their employees as a direct cash cost, one than most people couldn't be bothered clawing back from their employer.

I wonder how many passenger actually sit down after travelling & add up the actual true cost of all the air travel components then compare it to the full service price they used as a comparison. I would suggest almost nil. It is a scam, and the poor old sheeple are slaughtered again & again, bullsh!t baffles! Airline management delivers less for the same price (now in components). It is not hard to see why they are going down this road.

So, in short the "cheaper for carry on luggage" won't go disappear any time soon.

[plainmaker]

The stupid thing is however, if the airlines enforced the weight and size limits, they would reap a fortune in ancillary charges.

Had an instance recently in J where a Y class pax deposited their bag above a pax who was sitting there. Waited until the aircraft was just about ready to close up, then informed CC that there was an an unauthorised bag above him. Claimed a possible security issue.

To the CC's credit, it went straight into the hold (after establishing the pax was in fact in Y), and the performance when the pax discovered their bag not in the locker at the destination was almost better than the inflight entertainment.

At least on that occasion the CC had the cojones to deal with it - on another occasion, when a laden bag fell on a passenger the (blonde) FA basically ignored the injured pax, and it was left to others in the cabin to establish the extent of injury. Less than 5 star airlines tend to be like that.

Plainmaker

[Three Greenz]

I have had hand luggage weighed prior to customs at both NZAA and BNE within the last 6 months and have seen passengers sent back to check in with over weight luggage.

[Servo]

You get all sorts on the aircraft. Got a call from the cabin the other day (after SouthWest had it's sardine can moment) that a "frequent traveller" was not happy with the pressurisation system, the quality of air was not up to standard and we had pressurised too much................

On the return flight we had another chap that insisted he needed to make an EMERGENCY phone call on his mobile phone at 41,000ft as he left something on the kitchen bench...........

Good CC can make a BIG difference. Some I worry about, straight out of puberty and Mcdonalds.

[The Green Goblin]

There was another one today, JQ81 requiring the AFP to meet the aeroplane and remove a punter from 25d :D

I believe it might have been a turn back too :}

[zone]

There is a opening for a solution.
Bags left in the aisle will run you foul of the CAO's if you are refuelling. An ATSB report could give the company the incentive it is so lacking!:ok:

[Mr. Hat]

There was another one today, JQ81 requiring the AFP to meet the aeroplane and remove a punter from 25d

Thats it boys bounce em on the concrete!

[David Billings]

Todays first two rows of seats on the E190 CNS-BNE had perfect examples of two Lady Screaters and the "overweight/oversize" roller bags.

Lady in first example puts largish roller bag in locker....strains to get it in... followed by large shoulder strap bag and sits down with handbag. Lady in second example tries to lift fat roller bag but bag too fat to get into E190 bin. Gentleman tries to assist, still no go. Lady sits down with bag on seat next to her. F/A comes along grabs offending roller bag and tries to fit it into bin two rows back. In process her arms weaken and she clunks seated pax with bag. "Sorry about that....". The now "rattled" F/A approaches Lady and says "Sorry, but..." and whistles the offending trolley bag off the aircraft to VB rep. outside.... "Will I have to get that off the carousel ?" asks second lady.... I felt like clapping.

All this for what ? 10-20 bucks ?

[Donalduck]

On VB...Costs $12 to buy a 23kg baggage allowance before arrival at the airport. A baggage allowance purchased at checkin will cost $40. You will be happy to know if the bag is taken from pax after boarding it has a purple tag attached and it costs $40 and a trip to baggage blues to pay for and collect the bag upon arrival thus adding inconvenience and hopefully a lesson not to do it again.
During VB's recent Casa audit oversize cabin baggage was raised as a concern so all staff have been instructed to make an extra effort in reducing this before boarding.

You should all spare a thought for the baggage handlers... the maximum weight for a single checked bag is 32kgs which is an international standard. Try lifting this on your knees with your neck bent and "passing" it for 3 meters!!! And then doing it 100 times more in the space of a 30 minute turnaround!

[peuce]

After a baggage mishap at Melbourne Airport yesterday, some JQ & QF flights arrived ... minus luggage. One JQ passenger was quoted as saying:

"We touched down in Hobart and it's freezing cold, I'm wearing shorts and thongs and then Jetstar casually informs us that our luggage isn't there," Mr Arundel said.

No comment ...