European Jumpseat Policy

[Vansin]

Is there any airline in Europe with an established Jumpseat policy?
KLM have just rejected this policy out of hand, after instituting a jumpseat committee
2 years ago, and advising its alliance partner-NWA- that it would implement it by October 2000.
So close, yet so far!

[Bigmouth]

No.

[Phoenix_X]

So what was the policy on jumpseats supposed to be?

[KADS]

In the US for instance, many airlines have jumpseat policies (agreements - valid for most midsize and bigger companies) whereas you as an employed pilot can show up for a departure, identify yourself with company ID and be able to come along. This is kinda a courtesy to your fellow pilots, as well as a smooth way to transfer deadheading crew with different airlines.
The way I see it, if the seat is there, and nobody is using it so why not utilise it.
Excellent way of travelling around the US too. :)

[This message has been edited by KADS (edited 24 October 2000).]

[Mr Moustache]

In Europe I suspect airlines are too worried about the insurance implications of allowing non ticketed people fly on scheduled flights. Its a great shame as it would make a few journeys that I do a lot easier. However, to give an example of why such a policy will not happen here.
On joining my present company I was type rated from before on the BAe146 but they operate the Avro RJ. I asked if I could go on a jumpseat famil ride before my sim checkout. Answer NO, unless I bought a standby ticket. Reason - insurance. That is with me a full time employee to fly with the same company!!
Enjoy this special privilege that you have in North America.

[METO power]

Pilots with Alitalia ride without a ticket. Iberia and Air France have a jumpseat-deal. There are two reasons why it is very difficult to get a jumpseat in Europe as they have it in the states. The main reason reflects the European mentality: it’s called YEALOUSY (what ground staff can’t have, others shouldn’t get)!
The second reason is our (they call it non-revenue, what a joke) travel agreement we have. The tickets are so expensive, that it is almost cheaper to go full fare. The company is making a lot of money with pilots who commute to work (by buying the so called non-revenue tickets).

[alcoflyer]

spanish airlines apart from iberia - will let you j/s with i-d or licence - main problem ex uk is getting handling agents to let you through without boarding pass - they won't understand that that such a thing is possible

most common comment is 'you need a ticket to travel' = get them to ask traffic officer at gate to ask captain - spanish charter carriers are very co-operative

[traveler]

With the new JAA text in our " basic operations manual " it is now captains discretion who rides on the cockpit jumpseat. You do however need an XCM-pass (additional crewmember boarding pass) to satisfy the insurance company. You are a pilot, you're not a risk factor more a benefit. But the airline has to print those boarding passes and instruct their ground personnel (Passage in Holland) to accept those, so you can get to the airplane.
We're still fighting for this easy low cost benefit.

[Sizzle]

Dear Alcoflyer,

Could you provide a little more info on the Spanish carriers jumpseat for pilots deal. You say Iberia says no but someone else in this thread says they have an agreement with AF. What about other OneWorld partners?

Opening the discussion up. Couldn't the pilot unions/associations of the alliances like OneWorld and Star arrange J/S agreements ? privaleges in Europe

[Richthofen]

In Germany there is no solution of anything unless You tax it. A free Ride is counted as tax advantage !!

Let´s say if a ride costs you 100 bucks (according a table created & held by the Tax - Authority) as regular PAX and you as a Pilot get it for free, then it will be counted as INCOME VALUE and you will be charged with 50 Tax bucks (tax is about 50 % for an average pilot´s salary). The airlines themselves will see nothing unless they charge you extra for tickiting.


Meanwhile the market is offering the same trip for 50 bucks to every customer. If You travel as PAD - You still will be taxed according the table above.

So - travelling "for free" may be the most expensive Way for Pilots in Germany.



[This message has been edited by Richthofen (edited 25 October 2000).]

[MPH]

The jump sear policy, in Europe, does not only have implications with the insurance but also with the TAX people! Who seem to get rattled anytime, someone in the airlines gets a free ride!!! It's a miracle they don't tax our uniforms!!!!

[Skunkworks]

From what I have understood, the spanish deal is not an actual agreement, they are just doing the only sensible thing - letting a licenced fellow pilot come along as "extra-crew".

I believe this is not an insurance issue, its all about the $ (or euro rather...)

What Traveler is saying sounds very interesting! Thats the point - if a licenced pilot would ride along (at the captains discretion) as "extra-crew" how can this be a tax issue?

AND, with 20.000+ ppruners here - CANT WE DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT?

/skunks

[traveler]

And if you don't print a ticket, but just walk op to the Captain and ask, than the Tax people would never find out.
Naturally I will deny ever having said this.

[TowerDog]

Have jump seated a few times in Europe on Norwegian freight carrier Fred Olsen.
Those guys were really nice to deal with.
Don't know if they are still in business?

In the US pilot groups and the airlines use the jump seat to bargain with:
Give us the jump seat and we will only ask for 10% pay-rise instead of 11%.

(Well, simplified, but that is about it.)

Belive Delta was the last one to free up the seat. Wonder if the big influx of ex Pan-Am pilots in there had anything to do with it?

In the US, the captain "owns" the jump seat, not the bean counters or the suits, way it should stay.

To pilots in Europe, continue the figth, once you get it, you will enjoy it.


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Men, this is no drill...

[alcoflyer]

in spain (and denmark and sweden for that matter) all f/d and cabin crew get licences ised by respective caa's - this is your proof of who you say u are and it is universally accepted - Iberia is a 'nada' as it is a scheduled carrier and it is generally accepted that this arrangement applies to charters but if u don't ask...

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"a dog is for life, not just a night stop"

[Bigmouth]

In Europe the captain owns the jump seat, too. However, he would rather let his wife or girlfriend have it than a commuting pilot. And off course both need an ID90. At the root of the problem is that basically anybody is allowed into the cockpit, unlike in the U.S. (whatever happened to security concerns?).
In the U.S. a jumpseater is considered an ACM, that is an additional crewmember. The FAA and the airlines wisely believe that three sets of eyes up front are better than two, so jealousy, insurance and taxes go out the window.

[ESSPWR]

I frequently jumpseat with Iberia and other spanish operators as a ACM. They ask for ID or licence. So far no problem. Its ok within Spain as well as on flights from Spain. The problem arise when you are at a large airport somewhere in europe. You can't really get hold of the crew and usually the ground staff are of no help as they may be jealous or have instructions not to help you. I know of at least one such incident in CPH. The capt of the spanish flight gave his jumpseat to a fellow FO but the ground staff (not spanish) refused to accept it.
Its sad that we in europe can't be more easy going concerning this. It would benefit all including the not so helpful ground staff at CPH airport as well as in other airports.

[mutt]

Bigmouth please explain the following...

In the U.S. a jumpseater is considered an ACM, that is an additional crewmember. The FAA and the airlines wisely believe that three sets of eyes up front are better than two, so jealousy, insurance and taxes go out the window

The aircraft is certified for 2 or 3 crew.... apart from the DC10 crash, i dont know of any incident where the extra set of eyes has helped the situation.

After all, how many pilots jumpseat on aircraft that they are current/qualified on??

Mutt

[Secret Squirrel]

Mr Moustache,

I too work for an Avro RJ operator. Mine is in the UK and I think we are the only one here. So I can only surmise that you must work for Sabena or Swissair because in our airline it is not only encouraged before being on line but actually we are rosterred for these even before we have completed base training, so we don't actually have the stamp on our licence yet. I must have done about three or four and I never had to buy a ticket. Nor was I issued with one at any time. I think that your crewing department are seriously misinformed. There again, I suppose that your terms of insurance might be different.

Whilst we don't issue jumpseat approval to anyone outside of the company without a ticket, an employee is automatically covered if on duty; and anyone going for the reasons that you have outlined, is on duty.

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Very funny, Scotty. Now beam up my clothes!

[Freddie]

In Italy we have an agreement with a few airlines, we can go to the check in and just show the ID, no need for a ticket.