Mass exodus at TAM

[varigflier]

People are leaving TAM in mass numbers. The total this year already surpasses the number of people who left last year and many more are handing in their resignations.
I wonder if management will do anything about it. And they are still talking about bypassing many F/Os.

[Junker-13]

Where are they going?

[varigflier]

Some to the sandpit but most seem to be going to Webjet, Azul Trip, GOL and flying private business jets.
Yes, TAM has a history of treating its employees bad and they take it to a whole new level.

[varigflier]

Here's something that should apply to TAM employees. I pasted it from an Etihad thread.

Even in a bad economy some Companies are just not worth it. Are there any telltale signs you should be looking for when trying to decide if you throw in the towel? Here are ten signs to look for to determine if it’s time to find a new company:


You Aren’t Learning Anything New
Yes, you want to know how to do most of your job. But there are also things you want to be learning; otherwise you are not growing professionally. If you have stopped learning at work, it’s time to find a job where you will learn new skills and grow professionally.

You Never Have a Day When You Wake Up Excited To Go To Work
If you wake up every morning Monday through Friday and never feel excited to go to work, that is a problem. It means you aren’t enjoying your job and it is diminishing your quality of life. If you wake up every day and dread going to work, it’s time to consider quitting your job.

You Spend More Time Surfing the Web Than Doing Your Job
When you are at work, you are supposed to be productive. Otherwise, it’s a waste of your time and the company’s money. If you are bored and surfing the web most of your work day, you may want to think about looking into job options where you’ll get more stimulation and responsibilities.

You Don’t Like Most of Your Coworkers
There are always one or two coworkers in the office that most people can’t stand. But if you don’t like most of your coworkers, chances are your days aren’t very enjoyable because you have to work with them day in and day out. If you can’t stand most of your coworkers, it’s time to think about finding a company whose employees you mesh with better.

You Aren’t Making Enough Money to Pay Your Bills
If you are working your butt off and not getting paid enough to pay your bills, you might be overqualified and underpaid for your position. Go find a job that pays what you deserve.

You Spend Time Looking For Other Jobs
If you are spending time looking for other jobs while you are on the clock, it’s obvious you want to leave your job. So keep looking for new jobs and as soon as you find a good one, take it and run.

You Haven’t Gotten a Raise in the Last Two Years
If you work hard and benefit the company you work for, you deserve to be rewarded for that. If your boss hasn’t given you a raise in the last two years, ask for one. If he or she says no, get out now.

Your Boss Sucks
Sometimes bosses suck. But if your boss sucks all the time and takes advantage of your time, it’s time to find a new job.

The Company Isn’t Doing Well
This sign varies from company to company. You must keep in mind that we are in a recession and if sales are down but the company isn’t in jeopardy, this sign may not apply to you. However, if business is down to the point where it looks like the company is going to go under, start looking for a new job NOW!

You are Stressed All the Time
You are supposed to enjoy life, not be stressed out all the time. If you spend most of your days stressed about everything that going on at work, you are not at the right job

[TOFFAIR]

Can someone actually flying for tam confirm this rumours, from what I heard they are recruiting a lot, switching company to web, azul, gol or trip, doesnt makes sense, and from what I can see, its not happening in large numbers. I heard many times tam would hire direct entries to widebody, but until now it hasnt happened neither to the 767 nor 330. Other rumour is that anac has interviened into their English Profeciency tests, doing audits and reproving many pilots to the point that captains who flew international were "downgraded" to domestic fleets.
Would love to hear coments from insiders!

[varigflier]

Yes people are leaving, yes they are trying to hire alot of people, yes they are talking about hiring straight to the 330, ANAC did intervene and there are about 60 widebody captains who are currently not flying because they didn't pass the English test. Only a few got downgraded to the a320 fleet but that was during the Barioni Era.
Switching to theses other airlines make sense when you have the time for command but you are number 900 on the list and you can go somewhere else and upgrade faster. Oh and yes I still work there.

[DA7X]

VF, what is your source for posting such B#*&%H? Come on let us know! From your screen name, I recommend yo see a therapist. Get over it and move on, Varig is history!

[varigflier]

Sorry to disappoint you but I never flew for Varig. Just a screen name. Source is the chief pilot himself.

VF

[sec_fac_elac]

Fellow
This is not true. I actually fly at TAM. Of course there are a lot of problems in the airline (if you research here in pprune, all airlines have problens, and they are almost the same).
In fact the bypass rumor is just a rumor. There is no "outside" aviator on GS for 67 or 30. In fact the aviation market in Brazil is expanding, so, there are a lot of opportunities. On friday, dollar was R$1,6. An A320 FO, with layovers make almost U$$7000 (free) plus vacation, FGTS, 13, and PPR (.65 ). What airline pays this for FO?
One of the major problen is that we have just one base, São Paulo. We have pilots that lives in Belem, Salvador, Recife, Palegre, etc. For those guys, in fact, the schedule is a piece of ****, but life is made of choices.
Best regards

[TOFFAIR]

Despite the longer time for upgrade, i think tam is still among the best choices for a job in Brazil, some may favour avianca or rio, wich for stated personal reasons might be true, and yes there are guys who quit for the others as well, but numbers. as for what i know are far from what i would call an mass exodus. I doubt the number reaches a percentage and no reason for the company to act desperately. I wish for the colleagues working there the company would improve the roster and shuttlers lifestyle as to set a higher standard for Brazilian aviators itself.

[upspeed]

Can someone actually flying for tam confirm this rumours...

Yes I´ve been flying for TAM for over 3,5 years now and can confirm that what Varigflyer posts is 100% accurate.

VF, what is your source for posting such B#*&%H? Come on let us know! From your screen name, I recommend yo see a therapist. Get over it and move on, Varig is history!


Dear DA7X,

Now the one posting B..sh...t is you! You´ve got to be kidding me, or you have relatives at some management position, or you´re part of it yourself! And for the record I recommend YOU see a therapist ASAP if you think TAM has anything to compare with the long gone VARIG. I´m not saying VARIG was the best outfit in the world to work for, but at least the way it treated it´s employees was way more moral and correct, not to speak of the safety aspects of flight ops! (the company´s first commandment states that NOTHING SUBSTITUTES PROFIT"

And I did fly for VARIG also, as I have for 3 other airlines in my career, including one in Scandinavia not so long ago. It´s because of "professionals" like you that our current T and C´s are way worse than those for sub-african third world country airlines! :=

This is not true. I actually fly at TAM.

Dear sec_fac_elac,

If you really fly for TAM...open your eyes! There´s a lot going on around you!
And you yourself said that life is made of choices...I agree with you 100%! That´s why I´m choosing to leave this cheap AirTaxi operator.

Safe flying!

[DA7X]

upspeed,

First of all, I haven't flown for an airline in Brazil since the mid 90's. Its funny how you read into my post to VF. Where do I defend the working conditions at TAM? Why do you assume I have relatives in management? What we are discussing here is "mass exodus", if you don't know the meaning of the phrase, look it up, google is your friend. From your post, sounds like you are just another sore ex-Varigiano, having to restart your career at a place that is so far from what you once enjoyed, and maybe you haven't gotten over your lost of seniority. Well, that's life my friend! I had to reinvent myself and my professional career many times in the last 35 years, like many here at this forum. Don't be sore, follow the advice I gave VF, get over it! If you are miserable where you are at, look for something better, remember the old saying, "the grass is always greener next door", there is always China and the Middle East to run to.
BTW, after 20 years of airline flying and now over 10 in corporate aviation, I can definitely say working for any airline in Brazil or most anywhre SUCKS big time, both financially and roster, but don't get me wrong, there are many many corporate jobs that are ten time worse, but not my!:=

[flyingswiss]

I was talking to one of TAMs 777 Instructors, he said the same thing about pilots leaving.

[fullforward]

There's 99% sure TAM will hire straight to wide body fleet (including 777) FOs AND DECS, from a very important insider.
This due to a combination of factors like lack of English proficiency by a significant number of pilots (it's been embarrasing to listen to their spell from time to time, with situations dowright dangerous); expedite grow owing to LAN merge (actually a takeover); and costs: it saves at least 50K USD per pilot to recruit straight were they are needed (avoiding 3 transition courses plus time of unproductivity).
Singapore, Emirates, Qatar, Korean Air, Asiana, Turkish, JetAirways to name a few, discovered this long ago. At the end of the day MONEY TALKS.
Simple reality check.
In particular, Turkish NEVER had expat pilots, in more than 60 years. They are recruiting for ALL FLEETS: A320, 737NG, A330, A340 and B777. Both FOs and DECs. They have one of the strongest unions and the administration convinced them that this was the way to do. The relationship between locals and expats is very good and nobody ever talk about initiate an industrial action owing to the 'frustration'.
It's just a matter of time for TAM to follow this trend. With the luxury of not having to contract expats, but rather Brazilians, fully rated with excellent standards, flying abroad.

[zedoscarro]

@sec_fac_elac (http://www.pprune.org/members/352796-sec_fac_elac)

An A320 FO making USD 7k net? You gotta be kidding me. Stop smoking man.
If you say BRL instead I´ll agree.

BTW, direct entry FO to A330 or B777 would be brutal...

[upspeed]

dear sec-fac-elac...

gimme some of that you're smokin bro...:O I too wanna believe that my salary is 7000 USD a month! show me the money!

[sec_fac_elac]

Guys, I'm not "tirando onda". Sorry, but as I said, all airlines have problens and for me, in Brazil, Tam is the best job (in my vision, sorry again). I'm in the company for 3 years and 4 months and near to go to T7 or 330 or 67. I know that I'll wait for at least 6 years to upgrade (captain position) and I have to deal with this situation. I have friends in China and ME and I feel that they are confortable, but not happy.
Again, if we calculate, U$$1 = R$1,6, and R$9000 (net) + R$2200 (layover), R$11200 = U$$7000 (I don't pay tamprev). Is that so sureal?
Best Regards

[JamesBon]

Hi All

I´m not brazilian but I would like to apply for TAM.
I´m sorry if you are not happy with the company.

Are they willing to acept expat pilots?

Thanks.

[efis4]

PilotUk says:

Varigflier You are right !

The company is like any other airline but has a poor way of treating its own pilots . This culture came from the previous administration.

If you are still flying for TAM you know what I am talking about.

Cheers




Hello there JONAS MONGENOT (PilotUk). the last administration sacked you for falsifying your logbook hours and a/c ratings remember???, no wonder you didn't like them!!!

[alemaobaiano]

Are they willing to acept expat pilots?

No, the proposed changes to the law seem to have stalled so it remains Brazilian nationals only.

TTFN

[Andrea_CTA]

Due to the fact that TAM and others brazilian airline are hiring with the must of the Nationality, is it possible to be elegible to work with RNE? I just called the Brazilian Embassy here in Italy and they said that I can work with all rights. The only thing I couldn't do is voting. But I will receive full documents along with CEP.
Is it correct?

Thank you in advance.

[alemaobaiano]

is it possible to be elegible to work with RNE?

No, until the law changes (if ever :ugh:) it is citizens only, either by birth or naturalization, in civil aviation (and some other industries). With an RNE you can live and work here, but not as a commercial pilot.

Expats can work in very unusual cases and then only on a temporary basis until a national is suitably qualified. IIRC the last situation was offshore heavy helicopter flying in RJ or ES, however regular line flying for a local airline doesn't fall into this category.

TTFN

[Andrea_CTA]

Wow... that's a pretty bad news..:{
Seems that I have to search something else for the moment.. :ugh:

[flyingswiss]

Now for foreigns it is even harder, you can`t get the license unless you speak Portuguese. When I got my CCF back in 2009 and you were able to do it in English, now you can`t anymore...the license will say Portuguese prof.

If you have the RNE and you get the CPL, it will say on the license that you can`t work....I`m sure you can find some kind of job, small taxi companies do all sort of illegal stuff, so it won`t be a problem to fly for them...

I met pilots with 150-200 hours on planes they have never even been on, but the company records shows that they flew them. In Fortaleza there is an operator with a King Air that that will sell you right time, you won`t be flying, you just have to go there and take to the cartorio the AC log get an authenticated copy, take it to ANAC, and voila` you can get several hour in your logbook.

I`m in Miami and I just met a crew training for TACV Cabo Verde, most of the pilots are from Brazil, the few locals I talked to told me they tried to get hired in Brazil, but they won`t allow them, most of them stay stuck on the L410 because Brazilians go over there and steal the ATR and bigger equip slots.....but guess what they don`t want foreign to go to Brazil. It`s the same deal in Mozambique and Angola...shame

You are Italian do a search about Brazilian pilots at Alitalia, and cabin crew in general. They had several pilots from Brazil flying the B767, Alitalia would get the training from Varig and they would allow many Brazilian to go over to Europe and fly there with no problems, but not the other way around.

When Crossair got the 145s, several pilots from RIO SUL got hired and had no problems to fly over there...

You still wanna fly in Brazil?

[Andrea_CTA]

:eek: What you just said is unbelievable! BUT... I have still the willing to move to Rio De Janeiro even because I am learning portugues with my girlfriend so.. it won't be a problem.
Soon I will be there and will go to a couple of flying school to get as much information as I can!
Cheers from Italy!

Muito obrigato boa tarde!
Andrea

[Da Mooca]

You still wanna fly in Brazil?

Well, Brazilians belong to the Expat Pilot Club as founder members since the beginning of the 20th century, when Santos Dumont moved to France to become the first man to fly a real airplane (not a fraud like in the US).

60 years later, when Panair ceased its operations, a bunch of experienced and well qualified pilots also moved to Europe to fly for some local carriers, including TAP, Swissair, etc. And recently – with the dismissal of more than 3,000 qualified professionals after the bankruptcy of Transbrasil, Vasp, Varig, Rio-Sul and Nordeste – over 600 pilots have been playing the game looking for greener pastures beyond the border. However in all circumstances drivers have complied with a series of requirements (including some demands from local unions) and thousands of blah-blah-blah to get a job. Yes, I have been an expat as well, and I can say without any doubt that neither airline has done a favour when a Brazilian is choosen. If there is a Jungle pilot flying for Alitalia, he/she certainly has an EU passport and therefore he/she has all rights as any EU citizen. About expat F/As, you should take a look on Pprune to find out how and why airlines have filled out those gaps with "aliens". Concerning Crossair and its hiring policies, you didn’t mention, but it is valid to say: several years ago, that respectable airline opened its doors for all foreigner pilots, and those Brazilians have been hired because of their competence, not because they can tell good jokes.

As many civilized countries, Brazil has its own regulations to hire foreigners, and a good command of the (Brazilian) Portuguese language is essential. You know why, don't you? Have you ever tried to request a clearance in English with 'Rádio Imperatriz'? And in Caxias do Sul, Maringá or João Pessoa? In short, only few international airports have ATCO who speak English. And tell me, how long would you survive even in a "major" if you don't speak Portuguese fluently? With a poor paid ground staff (completely demotivated, as usual) what answer can you expect when you try to talk to the roster guys or after submitting your writing requests in an obscure language to most of them?

By the way, German has been a prerequisite to be a Lufthansa pilot.

[EdForce6]

I understand what you are saying !! Agree 100% with you. I would not want a free for all in the brazilian pilot market.

I'm Portuguese, my girlfriend and future wife is Brazilian, what i dont understand is the fact that i dont qualify to fly commercial in Brazil? I speak the language and so on.

Can you explain the reason why portuguese pilots dont qualify ??

[emirmorocan]

Ahh Brasil! So many times bashed by foreigners and now becoming the new "El Dorado" The world is really changing.

[Da Mooca]

Hi Ed,

As in Portugal, as long as you meet the requirements you're eligible for a job in Brazil. Unfortunately I don't have an EU passport and JAA licences, and despite my previous experience I have never been qualified to get a job in Portugal. Period.


You speak Portuguese and your future wife is Brazilian, however do you really have the right to work in Brazil (all paperwork done)? Do you have a valid Brazilian CPL/IR/ME? A Brazilian Medical Certificate? 1200 hrs? Would like to live in São Paulo :mad:?


If you said yes, Tam is looking for you. With less experience, Azul is a good option.


Good luck.

[Autothrust05]

Dear Ed,

Simply because they don't have a brazilian passport, same reason many brazilian pilots do not qualify to fly/work in Portugal. There are at least two former Portugese colonies in Africa needing pilots, interested?

[EdForce6]

Hi Da Mooca,

I see what you are saying, i need the paper work to pull through before i can move and fly. I havent really looked into it cause im employed and never thought in flying in Brazil. And after reading it all (above), i see that one needs to be a national to be able to fly for a airline.

What im not understanding on my situation is the following, after getting married, and decide to relocate, convert my license, will i be able to get employed ?? (airline and private/corporate)

If not !! them i can stay where i am and continue.

Hi AutoThrust05,

Thanks but no thanks on the colonies in africa. I have a good friend that is down there and he had allot of problems getting his paperwork/visa in place. but if one day, never know my future, i have to go there ... i will.

[60west]

Flyingswiss

"You are Italian do a search about Brazilian pilots at Alitalia, and cabin crew in general. They had several pilots from Brazil flying the B767, Alitalia would get the training from Varig and they would allow many Brazilian to go over to Europe and fly there with no problems, but not the other way around."

there where never brazilian pilots in Alitalia, on any aircraft.
Varig's B767 simulator in Rio was used for some time around 2002 if I remember well, all instructors and checkers were italian.

[alemaobaiano]

What im not understanding on my situation is the following, after getting married, and decide to relocate, convert my license, will i be able to get employed ?? (airline and private/corporate)

Not until you have a Brazilian passport, which will probably take 7 to 9 years.

TTFN

[TOFFAIR]

I happen to know that tam really did hire guys direct to 767, as far as I know FOs, but it was never published anywhere, mostly they were indicated by someone (QI) and previously rated on the 767. I was told company wanted to hire FOs directly on 330 and even possibly to 777 and DECs to the A320, but their union have the company prevented from doing so. But pressure seems to be growing from investors side to get management to do what deems nescessary to assure the planes be fitted with crews...
For those who are foreigners trying to get a job in Brazil, I think it might be possible for you to get a job if you do what it takes to get it, this might include a long time waiting, some crappy jobs, and I understand those who get frustrated on the way. I seriously believe the country will open for expats sometime soon, but if it happens right the way, guess what will happen: companies would take advantage by not paying TRs anymore, T&Cs would go down, I would expect most companies turning into something comparable to COPA, does anybody want this?
Speaking Portuguese will probably be nescessary to fly domestically for a while. I tried to talk English with the tower in SBPS today, havent even got any aswer, then switched to Portuguese... I think Blue panorama will start flying there next month! A controller from Curitiba center this week couldnt tell below from above "fly under FL200"! I experience situations like this everytime!
But to come back to the issue of the post< how many are to leave tam?

[Autothrust05]

I am actually surprised with this exodus, certainly didn't expect that!
I tought the exodus was only occuring at Azul due to the low salary.

cheers

[zerograv]

Sorry for keep it off topic just a bit longer .....

Just went through the crew list at my current employer and come up with 15 Brasilian Captains working in Portuguese airline. Most of them are ex Varig, some ex BRA. None of them have Portuguese passports. All of them started working in Portugal with validations of their Brasilian licenses. Some of them have done the JAA license in the mean time.

What allowed them to gain employment in Portugal? Experiencia em "meia sete"

Doubt that there will be any Brasilian airline with 15 foreigns in their pilot workforce!!!


TOFFAIR
I remember of one Captain that left sometime around the end of 2007 and the begining of 2008. To the best of my knowledge, he went for TAM.

[alemaobaiano]

None of them have Portuguese passports.

But do they have passports from any other EU nation? Quite a lot of Brazilians have Italian passports giving them the right to work in the EU, of which Portugal is a member, therefore neither they nor their employers are breaking any rules.

TTFN

[zerograv]

Alemao

Not the case!!! The Portuguese immigration law allows for the recruitment of "highly qualified workers" as long as the employer makes an application confirming intent to recruit the worker. Believe this is the way it is done, not being very familiar with the exact procedure as I don't need it.

Additionally, after working a certain time in Portugal (I believe it is 6 years, but not sure) the worker becomes entitled to the citizenship.

You quite rightly mentioned that a lot of Brasilians are entitled to European passports. One of the captains has a German passport and another was working on getting a Italian passport, but they would be OK without an EU passport and, in any case, some might entitled to a Portuguese passport in a not so distant future.

[spinola]

Dear da Mooca,

Brazilian law actually is totally different from the Portuguese and even quite unfair to the portuguese, there is no law that prohibits foreigners in Portuguese Law, there are requirements in the conversion of Brazilian license for European JAA, something that is far from being a problem for the Portuguese pilots that want to go fly to Brazil, it is logical that there should exist at least a knowledge of local laws, and communications.
When someone said it was impossible for an individual that does not speak Portuguese, to fly in Brazil when the ATC do not speak english, well my dear friend I speak Portuguese and I realize as well as you should also that is very bad for large airports not to have proficient ATC, is something that should be required in brazilian training and laws, as you know English is the official aviation language, but you are right it would be difficult and even dangerous for a German for example to fly in Brazil, without proficiency in Portuguese.
One final note is that there is no European passport what exists is a passport issued by a member country that can open the door to work in the European Union, and a Brazilian does not need a passport to get to work in the European Union, requires an employment contract, that can lead eventually to obtain one.
I will not extend more because it's crystal clear that it's quite unfair for the portuguese pilots the law that states that all foreigns are not accepted to fly commercially.
Regards

[Ghost_Rider737]

I am an A320 FO and I net $USD 8000. It's not a far fetched figure.

I would Fly for TAM free of charge just to admire the goddesses in brazil :ok:

[Ghost_Rider737]

I am an A320 FO and I net $USD 8000. It's not a far fetched figure.

I would work for TAM free of charge just to admire the goddesses in brazil :ok:

[alemaobaiano]

I would work for TAM free of charge just to admire the goddesses in brazil

Each to their own I suppose :}:}:}:}:}

Brazilian women too fat, men drink too much: study | Reuters (http://www.reuters.com/article/2007/03/14/us-brazil-health-idUSN1426826620070314)

Brazilian Babes Getting Fat; Need Larger Swimsuits | Rolling Out - Black News, Celebrity Videos, Entertainment, Business & Politics (http://rollingout.com/culture/brazilian-babes-getting-fat-need-larger-swimsuits/)

You still want to work for free? :E:E:E:E:E

[efis4]

be careful though, you all heard what happened to jonas mongenot and TAM .............