Upwind=track or heading?

[caucatc]

Excuse me for this stupid question, if the runway is 36, I say maintain upwind, does that mean maintain 360 heading or maintain 360 track ?:confused:

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

I don't know. Would it be better to give the pilot a radar heading to fly?

[malecontrol]

Neither.

Why would anyone say maintain RWY upwind?! If a pilot is asked to maintain upwind he can maintain either RWY heading or RWY centreline track and he would be right both ways. This would be my guess:}

[Piltdown Man]

But if you told me to 'Maintain upwind" I wouldn't have a clue what you wanted me to do.

PM

[Spitoon]

As a controller, I've never heard the expression and wouldn't know what means either. If we're talking about what to do after take off I would tell the pilot to fly a track (straight ahead) or a heading - to me this is quite clear but it also creates misunderstandings.

[Gulfstreamaviator]

Rather than correct grammer and syntax...

glf

[BrATCO]

Depends where the wind comes from. :}

I would say "continue runway heading", or "steer on heading xxx" for a heading, or "runway centerline" for a track, depending on what I need.

There's no stupid question, there might only be foolish answers. :)

[Piltdown Man]

There's no question of being intolerant, it's just that none of the words "runway", "heading" or "track" were used in the instruction "maintain upwind." This may be a direct translation or an English one of local origins, but either way I've not heard this term before. To make an assumption that we were be asked about the "On departure, maintain runway heading" or "On departure, maintain runway track" question is not fair.

PM

[BrATCO]

That's right, if the question was about final instead of departure, then I would use "continue final RWY 36"...

[caucatc]

Can you tell me which country issue the initial track for departure traffic? We issued the initial track to the pilots but some pilots do not know what to do, some pilots even said they do not do the track, just heading,because they think controllers can only issue the heading.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Many countries publish tracks to be flown after take-off in SIDs (Standard Instrument departures). Do you not have those in China?

If a track is required after take-off ATC should allow for the wind and issue a heading..

[BrATCO]

I reckon it doesn't depend on countries.
It depends on whether there is a SID from said runway or not.

If there is a SID, then the "track" is obvious : follow the SID.

If there is no SID, we (in France) use "multidirectional" departures.

"Multidirectional departure" : after take-off, climb on runway centerline up to published height (1000' AGL, where I worked), turn according to departure clearance.
This turn can be either a heading, or a direct to a VOR, or a fix to join a published SID from another runway/field.


they do not do the track, just heading,because they think controllers can only issue the heading.

A radar vector can be issued to follow a "track"(which I understand as being a "radial").
In this case, my phraseo would be : "Turn right heading xxx to intercept and follow radial yyy from VOR".
Controllers can issue a heading in order to get a "track" (radial from VOR).

I seem to remember the heading should be at least 20-30° right or left of the radial in order to get a frank turn/interception (same as glide interception, or so).

Hope it helps. :)

[ATCO1962]

Hi caucatc,

I've never heard the expression you've used here, either, and that's after 30 years in the business.

In my current country, we use a SID or RWY heading. We know that a runway heading instruction may not result in a runway centreline track, but we'll know the wind and how it will act on the heading when the aircraft gets airborne and work around that. It's a simple and useful way of getting aircraft quickly away with all players knowing what to do with a minimum of work in the cockpit.

Cheers

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

ATCO1962.. wise man.

[caucatc]

Hi ATCO1962
Currently Beijing has three paralleled runway 36L/R and 01,normally we will issue the initial heading 330/360/030,but a problem is west wind prevailed at our airport is ,so if there is a strong west wind,the departure aircraft from middle runway will drift to the upwind of runway 01,it is ok to make 36R and 01 to departure traffic dependly,but that can not expedite the flowment,so we issue the initial track 360,that is what we do now,but some pilots think it is not good to issue the track, what do you think?

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

I never instructed an aircraft to fly a track. Radar heading is the best.

[cossack]

We discussed this last year. Instead of 330/360/030 use 325/355/030 or even 320/350/030. If your separation standard requires 30 degrees divergence, this method will provide it. Aircraft have to turn to these headings as soon as possible to avoid drifting.

Beijing has SIDs but still seems to have "issues" with departure separation.

[Wojtus]

If it is a pilot reporting "on upwind leg", I'd consider it as a track - pattern flying includes drift correction by definition. It's just the same as reporting "downwind" or "final".

But as a controller, I would never say "after departure maintain upwind" - there are better phraseologies in my book.

In an very rare cases, pilot joining the full visual pattern might be asked to "extend upwind" and I this will mean runway track, not heading.