A sign of the times

[Bedder believeit]

Today (31st March) is the first day - to my knowledge - that in excess of 1000 aircraft movements are scheduled for VHHH. Doesn't mean we'll break that figure, won't know till after midnight, but I guess we will see more of this! We used to do a little over 500 a day when we first moved from Kai Tak.

[AGNES]

To celebrate over 1000 aircraft movements, HKIA was awarded the world's best airport 2011 by Skytrax on 30/3/11.:D

[On the beach]

...in excess of 1000 aircraft movements are scheduled...

Bedder get used to it.

I blame that bloke downstairs and his fancy ... fast time machine! :)

On the beach (and staying here) :ok:

[cxorcist]

In 2009, HKG ranked 41st busiest among the world's airports by aircraft movements. In 2010, HKG was still not ranked in the top 30. Granted, the primarily wide-body traffic explains some of this. For passenger traffic, HKG ranked 11th in 2010.

However, with better ATC these numbers could be improved by some margin. That should be the first priority, but the politically incorrect reality is that it will take many more gweilos to get the job done and that is not going to happen.

So a third runway becomes the next viable option, but how much does it really accomplish when there is still only one departure and arrival corridor, especially considering the previous point about ATC.

[On the beach]

Hi cxorcist,

"For passenger traffic, HKG ranked 11th in 2010".

To understand where Hong Kong stands in the world you need to add another statistic, which you omitted.

World Airport Rankings 2010: Hong Kong eclipses Memphis as the world’s busiest cargo hub | Centre for Asia Pacific Aviation - CAPA (http://www.centreforaviation.com/news/2011/03/16/world-airport-rankings-2010-hong-kong-eclipses-memphis-as-the-worlds-busiest-cargo-hub/page1).

The salient part of which is:

"It’s official: Hong Kong International Airport (HKIA) is the world’s busiest cargo hub – ending Memphis International Airport’s 18-year reign at the top of the world rankings".

If you were to convert those freighters to passenger-carrying wide-bodied aircraft you may get a rather different ranking for passenger traffic.

I don't think better ATC is what you really meant. Perhaps, a better access by the current ATCOs to airspace North of VHHH would see a ranking transformation into the top 10 in the world.

But, if you check all those airports in the top 10 they all have more than 2 runways. So, you can only truly compare like with like.

"...politically incorrect reality is that it will take many more gweilos to get the job done..."

If you pay a visit to the ATCC, you will find that the vast majority of the controllers are of the non-gweilo type and they seem to do a pretty good job. So, I think you may be slightly mistaken in your above assertion. The one thing we do agree on, though, is the need for many more ATCOs to get the job done.

I'm assuming from your moniker that you work for CX and I believe they are getting a net 41 new aircraft in the next few years. So, this means ATC have to increase the runway capacity by 3 per hour (based on the 14 hours where capacity can be increased) just to accommodate CX. The trouble is that there is another outfit based in Hong Kong called HK? which also is increasing the size of its fleet, but by 63. So, there's another increase in runway capacity by 4+ per hour, which if you add those numbers to the current 61 per hour max takes you to 68 per hour. The trouble is that there are a few more airlines around the world that would like to increase their capacity into Hong Kong, probably including a few cargo carriers.

New runway? More like new airport!

On the beach

[cxorcist]

Good points you make. I am not an ATC expert, but I do know that HKG could be more aggressive about squeezing departures out between arrivals. If CLK were in the US and at capacity, they would use both runways for arrivals and departures and get at least a third more movements.

Of course this would require some of the moob-equipped pilots to jiggle their stuff a little more getting on and off the runways quickly. It can be done...:ok:

[Maple Leafs]

Always hold 45 min coming from Regional Airports. In summer, hold an hour at least.

BTW it is on top of what they give you.:ok:



On a line check...........................:O

[Beta Light]

Throw in the complicated Pearl River Delta airspace, China military and metric system and I think the equation change a lot.

good job H.K.A.T.C.

[carl baker]

I agree with the sentiment that improving Traffic Flow at HKIA should be the priority rather than pouring concrete for a third runway. The speed control for arriving traffic is poorly handled, and the zig zag vectoring is frustrating and clogs the radio with multiple instructions leading to over transmissions - wait for weather avoidance in months ahead.

ATC should get the first aircraft inbound on hi speed (subject to WX of course) and then separate the following by 20kt less? I understand there is multiple entry points, but often when switching frequency, there seems to be little co-ordination of speed between controllers.

I also agree that airspace north is the biggest factor limiting HKIA movements and the biggest headache for controllers. That said, I think there is scope for increasing capacity through better speed and runway management rather than the campaign to build a third runway.

[cyrex]

230kts at elato...nice:rolleyes:

[Captain Dart]

I agree, pouring concrete won't solve the problem. The paranoid Peoples Liberation Army Air Force should fly their MiG 17 copies in 'corridors' (this how most other air forces operate) and should relinquish airspace to enable common, coordinated arrivals into the PRD airports.

But the cousins up north will never progress while they think the whole world is out to get them and the military holds sway over economic development. The 'glass wall' will be there for generations to come.

[AGNES]

The final figure of 31/3 was 983 movements - a new record of HKIA. HKATC also handled 510 overfly traffic during the 24 hours.

[Sqwak7700]

I have noticed a bit of sloppiness from ATC in HKG with regards to multiple instructions issued at once, as well as altitude clearances with a frequency change. Very poor practice and will end up biting someone.

Besides that, the HKG ATC does a great job. They are overly conservative sometimes, but that is probably a result of not seeing what they are seeing.
:ok:

[FlexibleResponse]

I have noticed a bit of sloppiness from ATC in HKG with regards to multiple instructions issued at once, as well as altitude clearances with a frequency change. Very poor practice and will end up biting someone.

But to be fair...does HKG ATC only selectively issue multiple instructions to local airlines and those airlines that can cope...?

In which case, one might applaud the level of HKG ATC expertise and professionalism?

[bamboosnake]

More freighters..More passengers more over fliers more complicted airspace, more on the job training, All for less money than we were paid in 1997....and no early go's..never mind the cost of living..and difficulty to get leave.:{
Don't know how we do it....but we do..and we generally do it well.!!!
Well done to all...:D
But wait a minute..here comes the bad weather..Keep an eye on that TCAS.:ouch:

[moosp]

AGNES, pity it didn't make the magic 1,000 but it will soon occur.

On the other guys like myself here who fly the stuff into VHHH, my view is tooooo much negativity. I operate big iron out of Hong Kong and still the stress reliever of the day, wherever I have flown in Asia, is the frequency transfer to Hong Kong control on return home.

There is no perfect world, and no perfect ATC but for all its restrictions, mostly beyond Hong Kong's control, pilots flying into VHHH get good service. And remember, pilots, that Hong Kong ATC is a Civil Aviation Department of the Hong Kong Government, with all the bureaucratic restrictions on Human Resources that entails. The guys on the mike are being screwed by their employers as much as you are. Or maybe more...

Like when you grab the Dentist's balls, let's not hurt each other here.

[main_dog]

I'm with you Moosp; by and large, great service from HKATC.

:ok:

[AGNES]

Hello guys,

Just a reminder, new arrival procedures for traffic coming from the south and the southeast will be implemented from 0001z on 7/4.

I am sure the local carriers have no problem but for some foreign carriers ....:ugh:

See you on 7/4.

[boocs]

just wondering if anyone has some info on the 3rd rwy for HKG. I've done a few searches, but nothing in depth.

Thanks in advance,
b.

[AGNES]

boocs,

Nothing in depth because there was nothing in depth yet. In my opinion, the 3rd RWY will not be fleasible unless we can flatten Tai Mo Shan and Sharp Peak.

[GlueBall]

No need "to flatten" anything, but to "fill in" the bay north of 07L/25R and build a parallel pavement. :rolleyes:

[boxjockey]

Glueball,

I think the point was terrain problems in the departure and arrival corridor.

box

[LapSap]

Seems we cracked the "gorilla" yesterday. 1,003 apparently.
No press release yet 'caus the Management and PR section are enjoying their public holidays while the controllers were all rostered for extra shifts.
Looking forward to the end of year bonus.:yuk:

[cxorcist]

Box,

There are no terrain problems. If there were a further north runway, it would be used for arrivals on 07 and departures on 25. Pretty simple really.

Cxorcist

[cxorcist]

Harman,

If I recall correctly, the current missed approach for 07L goes north of the high terrain near Lion Rock. Pretty sure we could replicate that missed approach procedure for the new runway since there would not be simultaneous approaches to the new 07L and 07C as they would be quite close together.

Thanks for leaning forward though...

[bellcrank88]

Funny, but I haven't seen anyone on here from HKG ATC telling you to do Autolands or when to select your flaps? :hmm:

[Cpt. Underpants]

So the "turn left 60 degrees...turn right 120 degrees...turn left 60 degrees...minimum speed...descend now....max rate of climb" stuff doesn't count?

Personally, I think HKATC do a fine job, given the mess that they're handed from our brethren North of the border.

What would work (and needs to be done here) is a consolidation of all local control zones into a single area control (like SoCal) with handoff to the local control only when in their CTA.

Oh, and ditch that stupid "flow control" machine that's screwing things up. Total waste of money.

[Cafe City]

Well we seem to be getting given the procedural approach a lot more lately- even in the middle of the day. Mostly by the younger sounding controllers. So maybe they're training them better to do that. Got cleared the other day near guava when there were at least number 4 and ended up perfectly behind the preceding one. Got cleared to land at about half a mile.
Get the impression they use the holds to the west and south better but we still get the Cpt Underpants treatment from the East. Whats up there? Different guys/girls doing it?
I dunno about the flow control machine. I spoke to one guy who thought it was quite good if used correctly. Swings and roundabouts I guess.
All in all good service from HKATC.:ok:

[On the beach]

So the "turn left 60 degrees...turn right 120 degrees...turn left 60 degrees...minimum speed...descend now....max rate of climb" stuff doesn't count?

A left turn 60 degrees for one minute, followed by a right turn 120 degrees for one minute, followed by a left turn 60 degrees for a minute = 1 minute delay.

An orbit = 4minutes delay. Not useful if you only need a 1/2/3 minute delay.

Once around the hold = 6 minutes delay. See above and interpolate.

Minimum speed/descend now = sometimes avoids some of the above.

Max rate of climb doesn't really apply unless you don't adhere to the above and end up too close behind the chap in front. Then, you get to experience the above all over again and they end up with 1,004 movements.

If you haven't done already, try and pay a visit to the Centre and see the "black arts" being performed. The transformation of chaos into order is something to behold even using "that stupid flow control machine". Mind you, the "Luddites" used to say something similar about radar, when I were a lad! :)

On the beach

P.S. Well done lads and lasses. :ok:

[AD POSSE AD ESSE]

Not useful if you only need a 1/2/3 minute delay


With most of us on overtime these days, maximum delays are exactly what we do need!!:ok:

[SMOC]

Apparently in the US the FAA has approved ATC famil flights again since 9/11.

Perhaps we should be doing more of this in HK so we can get a clearer idea of each others procedures. :ok:

[boocs]

AD Posse,

Although we may work for the same 'Group'..... What's overtime??

b. :ok:

[Captain Dart]

I would fully support regular jump seat rides for Hong Kong ATCO's; regional turnaround flights would be ideal; in fact, I am surprised that it is not a requirement for them. It would be an opportunity for them to experience the result of their labours and for pilots to meet them and maybe ask a question or two in the cruise.

But it probably says 'can-not' on page XYZ of some manual somewhere.

[hongkongfooey]

Ah yes, the PLA, air forces throughout the world operate in close proximity to civil aerodromes without a fraction of the delays these clowns cause.

As for the flow control programme, a senior ATC trainer told me it was designed for an airport with 2 entry points ( does that sound like HK ??? ) , some bright spark in management is still patting himself on the back for that cock up. Also if you are wondering why you have to fly away from the airport, on arrival, at cruise speed instead of min clean, if you slow down this brilliant programme re-sequences you which causes some degree of grief.

Whilst a good deal of HKs problems can be blamed on the northerners, is it the mainlands fault we do S turns through the arrival, get told " max speed " to then be told " 210 kts " by the next sector ? Who is responsible for the bright idea of arrivals and departures flying over TD, departing a/c being held down for 10-20 miles, arriving a/c flying level at FL110 for xx miles then becoming high on profile.

The whole airspace thing around here is a horses ar5e and as traffic increases it can only get worse.

Oops, nearly forgot. If some of the " professionals " that operate into HK would do the speed they are told, and not be at 180Kts at 30 miles, I am sure HK ATCs job would be easier.

[AGNES]

I think the "S" turns do often happen in the east sector. The east sector is the busiest sector within HK airspace. Because of that, traffic from the east normally has priority over traffic from other directions. If the downstream sector requires 10 or 15 miles spacing, the radar controller has to sequence the traffic based on the required spacing right after you passed ELATO or DOTMI. Speed control and vectoring are the methods to achieve the spacing. To turn you back to the south after a northerly heading is to keep you within HK airspace and save you from being intercepted by the J10! Beyond 15 miles north of Airway A1 will be Guangzhou airspace. So why not turn to the south? Don't forget about the ENVAR departures.

Traffic from DOTMI and ELATO will merge at MAGOG. If 2 traffic dead hit at MAGOG, how can we achieve the spacing without vectoring either one.

10 to 15 miles spacing does not warrant holding or orbit. Of course, if the downstream sector requires extra spacing or there are too many, we hold.

The "S" turn seldom happens in the south or west sectors because the airspace is larger and less restrictive. Usually some direct tracks or speed control will achieve the spacing.

If you are number one in sequence, normally you will be asked to fly fast, say 310 knots IAS in order to achieve the spacing "within" that sector. After changing over to the next sector, you will be asked to reduce speed because you will be merged with other traffic from other directions!

TD is the crossing point of departing traffic and arriving traffic from the east during RWY 07 is in use. That's why you may have to level off at 9000 feet or FL110.

HKATC not only has to sequence the traffic landing VHHH, but we also have to sequence the traffic landing VMMC, ZGGG and ZGSZ, not to mention to flow control required by ZGGG and ZGSZ.

Have a good day.

[SMOC]

The max speed then slow down thing is to close the gap or create a gap for optimal spacing.

Yet I still hear people saying "there speed control is so erratic they don't know what they're doing".

Bring back ATC rides, I know I'd like to ask a few things.

[AGNES]

The familiarization flight programme has been in place all the time. I have been to several times and enjoyed very much each time.

Perhaps the business of the local carriers is so well that they are quite reluctant to spare a seat to a non-revenue passenger.

We have difficulty to get a FAM FLT ticket in recent years. The best is a jump seat ticket.

To some people, it was quite "uncomfortable" sitting on the jump seat for the whole trip. Some even joked that they had to ask for the Captain's permission to leave the cockpit for toilet.

Do you like a stranger sitting in the cockpit staring at you and trying to find conversation during the whole trip?

What do you think?

[Captain Dart]

I don't see any problem; a Taipei turnaround is about 1 hr 30 minutes each way and would be an ideal flight to observe. Airline staff sit on the jump seat to get where they are going all the time; the longest I've had is a 'stranger' on the jump seat from Hong Kong to Toronto non stop!

The only requirement to visit the toilet is that the seat belt signs are off and outside the door is checked. And if you think that the jump seat is uncomfortable, it is not that different to the pilots' seats. Spare a thought for us on arrivals off long haul flights!

I personally would welcome any HKG ATCO in the cockpit any time; particularly during summer! I would also have thought that the local airline managements would bend over backwards to look after HKG controllers and get them on flights. Having an efficient and pleasant relationship with ATC would be of great benefit to the local companies; but what would I know? I'm just a pilot.