VISA Waiver program US: possible or not

[digits_]

Hello All,

this summer I will fly in the US and Canada, and I am trying to figure out whether I need a Visa or that the Visa Waiver program is valid for my situation.

- I have the Belgian nationatlity
- I will enter the US from Belgium on an airline flight
- I will fly with a private airplane myself to Canada and back
- I will leave the US to Belgium on an airline flight

The 3rd part might be a problem. Why I have doubts: a friend of mine did something very similar (with the bahama's instead of Canada) last year and he did not need a visa. I contacted the embassy to confirm this and they tell me I do need a visa. Can anybody confirm or deny this ? Is there an other US organisation I can contact to ask this question ?

Kind regards,
Digits

[172driver]

I'm not familiar with the detailed ins-and-outs of the new requirements for international flights in and out of the US, but I suspect you may be right - the Canadian bit could be an issue.

I would call (or better-email) the embassy and ask the following questions:
1) 'Can I enter the US in a private aircraft on the Visa Waiver Scheme'?
2) 'Can I do as above while acting as as PIC ?' (assuming here that YOU will, in fact, be PIC on that flight - if not, then disregard).

Get the reply in writing and have it with you when undertaking your flight (assuming they say 'Yes, it's OK').

[S-Works]

The answer is you will need a B1/B2 visa. It is not possible to use the VWP for the trip you describe.

[BackPacker]

I tend to agree with Bose-X, because in general entering the US under the VWP program in a private aircraft is not possible.

The reason is that it's the immigration officer who has to determine whether you are eligable to enter the US under the VWP, and if he finds you are not, you are going home on the next flight. Airlines have to sign contracts with the US government to take back any passengers who are found not eligable.

Since somebody in a private aircraft hasn't signed these contracts, they cannot be flown back if necessary, so the VWP is not available to private pilots. You'd have to get a proper visa, which means that your eligability to enter the US is checked in advance (when the visa is issued).

However:

Once you are admitted under the VWP (in your step 2), then this admittance is valid for 90 days or so. If you make a quick visit to another country (Canada and Mexico being the most likely candidates) and then return within this period, you don't have to apply for the VWP again. Your initial admittance is still valid. I have done a weekend road trip to Canada (from Detroit to Toronto and back) by car and all the Canadian and US immigrations officials did was stamp my passport next to the VWP stamp, and drew an arrow pointing to the date that was part of the VWP stamp. No green form or anything else required when re-entering the US.

So I would not be surprised if somewhere deep in the regulations an exception to the VWP requirements could be found that allow you to undertake this trip. Obviously as long as the whole trip falls within the initial VWP period.

But yes, if you simply ask 'Can I enter the US in a private aircraft on the Visa Waiver Scheme?' then the answer will be 'No'.

[dont overfil]

Is flying to Canada really different to flying to the Bahamas?

I have done the Bahamas many times on a waver and this was questioned only once. When this was clarified it seems that it was permitted and was described as an "excursion."

Having a second reading of Backpackers post and I think as usual he has it spot on.


D.O.

[BackPacker]

Is it really so difficult to get the visa

It's not particularly difficult, but it is very involved.

First, you've got to make an appointment at the embassy/consulate. Depending on the type of visa and how busy they are, they may take as much as TWO MONTHS. Admittedly, that is rare and you'll normally find you'll be able to make an appointment within two weeks or so.

But at the very least the wait time is considered significant in some instances, so they've created a whole website to find out the current wait time.

Visa Wait Times - for Interview Appointments and Processing (http://travel.state.gov/visa/temp/wait/wait_4638.html)

Then you've got to assemble the paperwork. In addition to the usual form-filling, this also means that you've got to have a photograph taken in a weird US format. Most shops over here are not setup for that format, as Euro-style passports require a different size. So you might have to hunt around for a shop that can do them properly. (Tip: There's one very close to the US consulate in Amsterdam, that gets a lot of business from folks who show up at the consulate with the wrong size photo, and are refused entry into the consulate straight away.)

Then you've got to go to the designated embassy/consulate, of which there may only be one in your country. For some people, that may mean a journey of several hundreds of kilometers. And the embassy visit itself may take as much as three hours, most of the time spent waiting.

And finally you've got to wait a few days before the passport is mailed back to you.

It is not exactly a difficult process but it is involved and from start to finish takes a relatively long time. (Unless they've changed it greatly since I got my M-1 visa five years ago.)


When this was clarified it seems that it was permitted and was described as an "excursion."

I found this, which may be helpful:

5. If I were to go to the U.S. for say, two months, then to, for example Mexico for a month, and then back to the U.S. for another month or longer (total duration of stay in the U.S. at least 90 days), is this possible without a visa? Or does the period of 90 days start again when I arrive in the U.S. for the second time and can I travel for a total of 180 days?

A: The 90 day period starts with your initial admission into the United States. Within these 90 days you can visit Mexico, Bermuda, the islands in the Caribean or Canada and return to the U.S. Under no circumstances can your total stay exceed 90 days without violating the Visa Waiver Program conditions. So if the total trip, including the time spent in the United States, Canada, Mexico, Bermuda, or the islands in the Caribbean will exceed 90 days, you will require a visa for the U.S. If your ticket terminates in Mexico, Canada, Bermuda or the islands of the Caribbean, you must be a legal resident of the area in order to qualify for visa-free travel.
(Consulate General of the United States Amsterdam, The Netherlands - Questions most heard by travel agents (http://amsterdam.usconsulate.gov/travelagents_faqs.html#long))

It doesn't say anything specific about an excursion by private aircraft, but it might help supporting your case anyway.

[Katamarino]

I flew to the Bahamas and back in a private aircraft from Florida. I had a visa, my girlfriend was on the VWP. They let us both in with no problems.

[digits_]

@BackPacker: i found the regulation about the 90 day valid visa waiver, but as you said, you did a roadtrip by CAR. So I agree completely with your explanation that you don't need a visa for that.

My trip to canada will last +-15 days and will be by private airplane.

@SoCal: Is it that strange that I ask for confirmation from other people if I doubt the answer of the consulate is correct ? They didn't really point to any regulations. It was a short reply "you need a visa".

Since I've heard the Bamaha story from 2 people now, I really doubt I need a visa for Canada.

[mutt]

I am entering the United States aboard a private plane, can I travel visa free?

If you are entering the United States aboard a private aircraft of a U.S. corporation that has entered into an agreement with the Department of Homeland Security to carry passengers under the Visa Waiver Program, you will not require a visa, if you are otherwise qualified to travel visa free. If you are entering aboard any other private or official aircraft, you will require a visa. Taken from Embassy of the United States London, UK - Visa Faqs (http://london.usembassy.gov/faq-vwp.html#niv105)

Can I enter the United States by land from Canada or Mexico under the Visa Waiver Program?

Yes. If you enter by land there is no requirement that you be in possession of a round trip or onward ticket. The immigration authorities at the border crossing will issue you with the arrival/departure record card, I-94W. You will be charged a $6.00 administrative fee; the fee is payable in U.S. dollars only.

Looks like you will need a B1/B2...

Don't forget about eAPIS...... and look at this U.S. Customs and Border Protection - Travel (http://www.cbp.gov/xp/cgov/travel/pleasure_boats/)

Mutt

[Victorian]

*** Out of date info warning ***

But:

I (a UK national) flew a 172 from Canada to Reno and back in 2000 with the Visa waiver. The only problem was that you had to have the visa waiver prior to the flight. In my case this involved driving to the border post S of Boundary Bay, getting the visa waiver, doing a 180 in US territory and driving back to the plane to make the flight.

Now in the era of ESTA there are no more visa waiver forms. You apply online and get a confirmation number valid for two years. No more green I-94 form to fill in on the flight to the US (You still have to complete the customs form).

Is ESTA good for private flights? I don't know, but back in 2000 no-one in Pacific Flying Club knew about the visa waiver form either. That's how I came to be driving to the frontier post that morning! How did I find out? A simple phone call to US immigration at Bellingham Airport. I made the call because I didn't quite believe the information I was being given, just like the OP.

So why not call US immigration at your intended port of entry to the US and ask them? And if it's an N-reg flying into Canada, perhaps you should call the Canadians as well. Please don't forget insurance, mandatory in Canada. I doubt many US FBO's carry insurance for flight in Canada, and that's before you introduce the 'foreign national' part!

And then there's eApis....

Still if you can do it's worth all the hassles. Go for it.

A final thought: Are you sure you want a Visa in your passport? The queues at the US 'frontier' are long enough already with their new computerised system.

[MartinCh]

I ditto BackPacker's words, just to add something new-ish with regards to US embassy/consulate procedures.

While couple years ago having the specified 2x2in format (times 2) photo was essential, these days it isn't so, at least from my experience earlier this month.

With the advent of digital technology and US govt's agencies doing more 'labour outsourcing to client' a la Ryanair, one has to fill out more and more forms online, now including uploading picture conforming to the criteria. Uploading isn't essential, but strongly suggested and the hard copy 2x2in pictures are more of a backup should visa officers find your digital version isn't good enough for them.

I never had B1/2 visa, nor have I applied for it recently. I just did J1 earlier this month and M1 couple years ago, another J1 in 2003. Chances are, you'd have to fill out DS-1xx form online, with tons of your information, so that they got it all neat without much processing, if with digital format picture, even better for them. In a way, better for applicants, as it may speed up the things.

Basically, it may be another DS-1xx form to fill online, another paper form (not likely as B1/2 visa, since you're not having US sponsor), paying 131 or so dollars plus premium call rate charge for the privilege to have a chat about date and time that is available and suits you all. Then showing up with all the paperwork, without electronic devices, USB drive fobs, mobile phones, PDAs, etc, no big backpacks/suitcase, to get past security.

Depending on the appointment hour - the sooner the better, less of a backlog when only getting in lunch time. Again, depends on individual consulate/embassy. Belfast Consulate is quiet, London embassy busy, etc.

One good thing about B1/2, if you need it, you get the pain done once. It's likely to be for 5 o 10 years. ESTA is now charged, has more limitations, VWP entry cannot be changed to another visa, should you need it. So long you behave and play by the rules, it's good.

[dont overfil]

Mutts quote about entering the USA is correct. However you will be returning which is different as Backpacker explaned.

Despite ESTA having been in place since May 2009 the green card was still issued to us last year.

Yes you will have to register with eAPIS but it is fairly straightforard and free. ESTA renewal was $14.

The only question is, are the rules the same for Canada as the Bahamas.
I'm off there again in three weeks with my visa waver/ESTA for the tenth time.:ok:

D.O.

[Victorian]

Despite ESTA having been in place since May 2009 the green card was still issued to us last year.

Presuming you mean the I-94 visa waiver form, not in Jan 2011 on BA 289 at least. ESTA has 'gone live' leading to agonising immigration queues! It's doubtless a good plan to carry hard copy of your ESTA approval with you.

[172driver]

Despite ESTA having been in place since May 2009 the green card was still issued to us last year.

I happened to be on the first flight to land in LAX the day they stopped issuing the little green cards. Big confusion, resolved with lots of laughter (yes, really), by all 'round.

[Chilli Monster]

I flew to Oshkosh last year (July), arriving in the USA via Canada (obviously).

The first question I was asked by Customs & Border Protection (CBP) was "Did I have a Visa?". Had I not had one the fine would have been somewhere in the region of $4500.

So - notwithstanding all those who "think" it's possible, it all boils down to - are you prepared to take the risk?

A little bit of form filling, a little bit of money (relatively speaking) and a day out visiting the embassy works out a lot cheaper in the long run.

[patowalker]

IIRC, you go through US Customs and Border Protection before leaving in the Bahamas, rather than than on arrival in the US.

They are likely to be more switched on about how the VWP works for visits to the Bahamas than CBP officers in the US would be about VWP visitors returning from Canada.

[BackPacker]

Being intrigued by this question, and having nothing else to do, I googled a bit more. And buried deep inside the CBP website I found the following:

VWP travelers may arrive on a private aircraft, if:
* The carrier is recognized as a signatory carrier; or
* If they are being readmitted to the United States, within the original 90 day admission period, after a departure to foreign contiguous territory or an adjacent island of 30 days or less.

If a VWP traveler is being readmitted to the United States from contiguous territory or an adjacent island, they will only receive the balance of their original VWP admission period if the traveler is otherwise admissible and meets all the conditions of the VWP with the exception of arrival on a signatory carrier.

From: http://www.cbp.gov/linkhandler/cgov/travel/pleasure_boats/private_flyers/private_flyers_guide.ctt/private_flyers_guide.pdf page 20-21. Contains a lot of other useful stuff too. Well worth a read.

[digits_]

@BackPacker: This is wonderful news :ok:

Thanks a lot !

[B2N2]

Found this thread a little late, but no visa required.
We do this all the time.
You do need an eAPIS account though.
Apply for it today, easy enough:
https://eapis.cbp.dhs.gov/
And before it starts a whole new discussion, yes it is required for Private Pilots flying out of/into the United States.

[flat6]

Hi there,

I'm planing to fly to the bahamas. As it was said before, do you think or rather have experience in flying to the bahamas as an eligible VisaWaiver-Country citizen?

I'm german, flying to the us on an european airline and i would like to fly to the bahamas on a 172 for 2 days.
As far as i read it, the FWP allows such "excursions".

any thoughts?

cheers
flat6

[Victorian]

I flew from Arizona to Vancouver BC in January, but being chicken left the plane at Bellingham and got a rental car. Returning to the US, the border guard queried the Colorado plates on the rental car and asked where I'd got it. When I said 'Bellingham' he got really curious about how I'd got there and a 15 min conversation about private flying ensued. To cap it all he said "why didn't I just fly into Canada illegally?".

After this, I went to the CBP office at Bellingham and asked them what the position really is. They didn't know and we had a long discussion about the pros and cons. It seemed they wouldn't normally quibble about somone turning up in these circumstances, but I was referred to a specialist officer who was out that day. I still have his phone number but never followed it up.

So I think the answer is, get a prior agreement from CBP at the port of entry or don't do it. They are perfectly approachable people although they may not say what you want to hear.

[PA28181]

My first ever visit to the US was by driving from Vancouver to Seattle, no thought of incorrect visa and no probs getting in/out.


Did the Bahama's trip a few years ago and again no probs with visa's, the only potential problem for anyone wanting to take a US registered aircraft outside US territory is the "Tax" problem on the aircraft.

I flew with Dean Aviation" from Tamiami and they only had two C172's that were allowed to leave/enter the US, and then we had to climb to 3000+ to get a unique transponder code before crossing the "ADIZ" or be met then by a US interceptor.

[flat6]

hi,
i called us customs yesterday. leaving and entering the us on a private plane like an excursion is possible if:

- you have entered the us before on a major air carrier using the Visa Waiver Programme

- you stay within the 90 day rule

all other restrictions and rules apply i.e. eAPIS and Aircraft regulations

[avionimc]

+1 with B2N2 and flat6!

Next time, suggest calling AOPA (or NBAA), they have the correct information as they deal with these issues all the time. Whereas an Embassy or even the CBP might not convey the correct information.