CARDIFF - 2 [Archive] - PPRuNe Forums

Phileas Fogg

13th Apr 2011, 20:44

Well the unemployment figure in Wales has recently risen for the 5th consecutive month so it's no surprise that companies, including air companies, are tightening their apron strings accordingly.

One wonders where these CWL airport workers are coming from, Wales and UK are in a financial sh1t street, literally all airports and airlines are reigning things in, as Wales unemployment figures rise travelling passenger numbers will drop and, it seems, these guys expect themselves to be immune from the mess the UK and Wales is in by expecting a £5 million government 'gift' to develop a terminal building that clearly is being under utilised whilst maintaining their jobs and, indeed, creating further business.

If an airport, any airport, can't pay it's way then close the bl00dy thing down and develop the land for housing or industry or whatever"

mathers_wales_uk

13th Apr 2011, 20:58

It was the airport management that requested £5m for terminal development and not the workers so to speak. Cardiff Airport terminal is adequate for it's current shedule and even more so if there is no replacement for bmibaby.

What was being said and request by a specific group was that if £5m for terminal developments was provided to Cardiff Airport then it should be match funded by Abertis/Tbi and go towards route development.

However in my opinion there should only be development to the terminal if we start to see passenger number growth for a year or so with a forecasted growth expected in the future.

Nobody likes to loose their job Phileas and nobody deserves to loose their job unless it is their own fault. A lot of people may feel hard done by as on the outside it seems as if not a lot is being done to resolve the situation even though it may not really be the case. Not a lot was done to secure Welsh aviation when the going was good which means were in a worse position when the going gets bad.

Phileas Fogg

13th Apr 2011, 21:27

mathers,

I could sit here and blow smoke up your @ss that everything is good and the future is bright for CWL .... but it wouldn't change anythiing.

CWL doesn't serve Wales, it serves the south east corner of Wales and just getting to/from the airport by public transportation leaves a lot to be desired, perhaps money should be spent subsidising ground, rather than air, transportation.

BMI have their graffiti splattered over the X91 buses yet, unless it is the morning/evening peaks Llantwit/Cardiff/Llantwit the X91 only serves the airport circa once per 2 hours and as for the X45 service, well it's quicker to fly CWL/AMS than it is to get from Cardiff on that service!

Last summer I arrived CWL on the evening KLM, there was no bus, for some considerable period, even going to Barry and £9 for a taxi up to Tesco's on the hill, well it doesn't encourage the travellers to utilise CWL does it?

It is unfortunate when any individual may lose their job, just look at our armed services, they're risking their lives in Afganistan at the moment and should they survive their current tour of duty there's likely to be a redundancy ticket for them when they arrive home, the UK is seriously and financially knackered at the moment and CWL airport is not exempt from this!

And this 'Welsh' thing does hold any credability, you and others might like to believe it but the Severn Xing or a sign or two on the A449 aren't that big a deaL

planenut321

13th Apr 2011, 22:02

^^ He's got a point though :ooh:

mathers_wales_uk

13th Apr 2011, 22:08

I am not a CWL spokesperson and would not like to be accociated as one. If you were posting honestly then i would guess that you wouldn't mind posting the whole PM.

Anyone who would care to look through your history would understand that your argumentative persona was one of the main causes of the previous Cardiff thread closure.

If you don't like what i post in a PM then please follow correct proceedures and report it to the MODS rather than bring it to the main forum and drag it down.

davidjohnson6

13th Apr 2011, 22:21

Boys + Girls - can we play nice please ?

PPRuNe Pop

14th Apr 2011, 05:45

Seems like old times!

This thread gets closed if the posts are not tempered with common sense and content fit for debate. Right now it sounds like a school playground with children fighting.

Better get a grip.

AA&R Mods

macdo

14th Apr 2011, 08:00

Unfortunately, there is a tendency to read half a post then shooting from the hip from some people on this thread. Maybe there will be redundancies at CWL when WW withdraw, maybe not, certainly the flight crew have been offered re-deployment and if FLYBE take up the slack, the winter full time ground jobs should be safe. After the end of September, CWL is like the Marie Celeste at the best of times.
At some point people have to accept reality, SE Wales cannot support a large airport. It never has been able to, although the boom years of the 2000's have masked the fact.
The airport will continue to exist due to political will and governmental money, this is a good thing, but to talk of CWL as a commercial enterprise is sadly a self deluding madness all to common in South Wales.

frfly

14th Apr 2011, 13:33

Would be great if CWL management could approach FR now with a reasonable deal that would work for all involved. FR could deliver the growth CWL both deserves and needs, with mainly leisure routes left in the void by WW. CWL could become similar to BOH maybe 2 aircraft operating Canaries, mainland Spain, Malta and Italy.

Many wouldn't like to see FR, but it would deliver much needed PAX figures and would secure jobs.

CheekyVisual

14th Apr 2011, 14:33

A sad day for all involved. I know what it's like to be tossed out of your cosy base, it's happened to me twice ! I once got told "Don't move for an airline job unless you have a mobile home".

The ground staff at CWL are a good bunch I hope there is a plan somewhere. There should have been because the Baby departure has been coming for a while. Sorry to sound negative but the company is dead and they're just waiting for the last German torpedo !

Airlines that are based at BRS (FR, EZY) are very unlikely to ride into CWL. The unfortunate fact of life is that the airports serve largely the same catchment and you'd just be competing with yourself. If they were going to they'd have done it by now. Baby wouldn't have stopped them.

If CWL management offered free everything (which they won't) they might get the odd FR inbound from a foreign base, The Irish Cancer love a freebie, but that won't pay the bills and as soon as there is money involved they'll go away saying how the fact that CWL wanted some money has cost a million jobs in South Wales.

I also don't think Jet2 would take the gamble. Being a similar operation to Baby they may be just a little too wary of the challenge at this point in the economic cycle. Although I will qualify that by saying I don't know anyone in Jet2 so I have no real idea what they think and they would be a catch if it could be done. Just feel they would have already been at CWL if they were interested.

What CWL may have to do now is go cap in hand to Exeter. Offer JF another R8 or whatever big sports car he wants because Fly Be makes the most sense. They have the right equipment for the job. They could make money where others can't. The 195 is small but cheap and will patially fill the med void and with 110 seats should always fly full if the schedule and price is right. (Baby's price ain't right if you compare to FR and EZY similar routes/dates). The Dash can handle most of the other routes that are sustainable from CWL. They're not going to bring in a huge influx of passengers but may stem the flow away and save some jobs in the process.

Good luck to all involved and I hope it works out for you all.

macdo

14th Apr 2011, 15:51

Cheeky Vis is spot on, Flybe the only hope at the moment. FR used to be at CWL, but there was a spat over something and they withdrew, 2008 I think. I don't see too many folk on AerLingus flight, but the Flybe's seem to be well sold, so they are doing something right.

NorthernCounties

14th Apr 2011, 16:10

I would never rule out a return of MOL and his gang. CWL might just be desperate enough to give him a good offer. And I'm sure CWL management would rather have passengers going through their terminal than not.

CWL has so much potential, and it is said to see the recent events! Fingers crossed for some airline to save the day, but unless you want it to be the size of EXT or SOU, down place all your hope on BE!

adfly

14th Apr 2011, 17:26

SOU at the moment handles quite a few more passengers and many more passenger flights than CWL(on smaller aircraft but still a big difference) so I would say it is something the CWL management should aspire to be like traffic wise!! Flybe could probably do fairly well with a couple of E175's on the European routes from CWL and I would leave the longer routes to the charters/possibly FR.

Facelookbovvered

14th Apr 2011, 17:52

Some on here remind me of the Teesside crowd who moaned about baby being expensive when they were there, slagged them off when they'd gone and what have they got now? nothing other than a handful of charters.

Its the same with the BFS nerds who think baby should fly to new airports rather than airports that are already served by BFS? what planet are they on? you follow the money and that is in order of volume return ALC/AGP/PMI/FAO & IBZ for about 6 weeks why risk CPH or MAD

WW will have got a deal and half with this lot and maybe they wont all work, but you'll never know until you try, as for prices, well have a look at the loads ex EMA to say AGP when you have FR and various IT companies against you WW still do three a day some days.

No one will start summer flights this year from CWL and i can't see much happening in the winter, if you get a new start up say FFB and they are £10 more expensive than Easy or Ryan from BRS most locals will cross the bridge, remember most on here have a vested interest in CWL, passengers don't !!! never mind the quality feel the price!!

I feel very sorry for the crews displaced, but if CWL can find a new 737 operation great, FR would be bad for any ex baby crews, they are not really interested in type rated pilots other than Captains and that will only be as a summer contract.

macdo

15th Apr 2011, 07:57

Well, if the current situation doesn't knock some of the arrogance out of the management and 'vested interests' around CWL, nothing will.

A sensible idea would be to 'manage' CWL to a size where it is sustainable. If that means it is more like EXT than EMA, so be it. The pax will dictate what they want to buy, the airlines will supply that and nothing more, its up to CWL to cut its cloth according to its means. While FLYBE is no less cut throat than anyone else in LoCo, they are partcularly good at niche selling (Cwl is a very limited niche) hence my tiny bit of faith that they might last the course.

I'm giving odds now on the Helvetic run to ZRH not lasting, any takers?:eek:

BAladdy

15th Apr 2011, 17:17

It appears ASW have dropped there NQY-CWL service.

No flights available for booking from 28th April.

The aircraft used to operate NQY-CWL-NCL-CWL-NQY. Flights fron NCL to CWL operated under a T3 flight number.

T3 will continue to operate 2 x Daily from NCL to CWL and will from the start of may offer a early morning departure from NCL

CSman

16th Apr 2011, 07:52

Radio Wales carried an interview with the Managing Director of Rhoose airport,together with an Aviation Expert? and a local travel agent. I could not believe the attitude of the Managing Director,the failings of Cardiff airport was, in his opinion caused by everyone else not the managment of the airport. A quite opposite opinion to that of the local travel agent. With this attitude I can now understand why CWL is failing. In my day Bristol was a lesser airport,but thanks to GOOD management it has progressed well [still bloody awful to get to by road] I speak as someone who learned to fly at the Glamorgan Flying club Rhoose,had my first aviation position as a F/O with Cambrian Airways at Rhoose and finished my flying life by taking the first B747-400 for maintenance into Rhoose

WATABENCH

16th Apr 2011, 08:40

You only need to read MD's interview for BBC to think 'what the hell are you playing at?' BBC News - Cardiff Airport's future in spotlight as bmibaby exit (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-13072157)

I know journalism can be ott, but in it he basically says that they had been expecting the Baby announcement for a while 'it's been predictable for three or four years' and wondered what it would be like without them. Sorry but surely common sense would say if your predicting that its going to happen you would be pro active as a management team and go out find and alternative airline before your left in the learch as has now happened.
For example when CO left BRS, the team were very quick in getting Aer Lingus back in on DUB route to offer passangers an alternative by clearing US customs in DUB, and also quick in getting KLM on a 4th rotation, ok not direct flights, but still shows the public they're working hard to make a succesful airport.
I also noticed that with Blue Island annoucing daily Jersey flight from BRS, the airline and airport were quick to show that you can connect to ZRH with them through JER as well, maybe trying to give alternative to the CWL-ZRH route, albeit a funny way round of getting there.
Just want to add that I wish all affected at CWL the best, and hope things work out for you, I am the first to admit being a BRS boy on prune, but nobody likes to see such a rapid demise of an airport like CWL, I have worked there in the past on occasion and everybody was so nice, you dont deserve whats happening and the worry involved.

arfortune

16th Apr 2011, 10:00

I have to agree in the above posts, re the MDs reaction to this.
If you knew, or even suspected, you were going to loose a major customer, you'd move heaven and earth to work out how to replace them. I know the economy isn't great, but a serious look must take place on CWL's senior management team with this one.
CWL has a future, and must attract the right airlines for this.
The whole epsiode is truly appalling as its people's lives were talking about - having recently been made redundant, it's not somethign I'd wish on anyone. Good luck

captaintrigger

17th Apr 2011, 16:49

I know Monarch are looking to start flying out of smaller regional bases from summer 2012. Let's just hope that they choose to give Cardiff a go. Fingers crossed the management at CWL will entice them in!!

macdo

19th Apr 2011, 08:54

Monarch! I think not. BRS maybe. To make a seat-only operation work, you need a catchment area. CWL is contsrained by mountain, sea and Swansea, QED low population, of which a substantial proportion are poor.
The BBC article quoted an academic regarding this being one of CWL's periodic contractions and the operation will grow again when times are good. But, after the last recession BRS was smaller than CWL, this time BRS has a massive advantage over CWL, an advantage which CWL will struggle to overcome.

MerchantVenturer

19th Apr 2011, 12:02

There is certainly an opportunity for someone to step in to fill the bucket and spade routes at the very least.

Taking up macdo's point, the previous recession was that of 1990/1991. I don't know if he means that one or the one of the early 1980s when both aiports were handling about the same number of passengers a year that BRS now handles in a mid-summer fornight, though it is true that CWl handled slightly more each year in those days.

CWL and BRS had not been too far apart in annual passenger numbers at the beginning of the early 90s recession with BRS about 17% ahead of CWL. Both airports lost ground for a couple of years but BRS came out the stronger and in the process passed through the 1 mppa barrier for the first time. In fact, by 1993 BRS was handling 30% more passengers than CWL and has gradually increased the gap ever since.

The current recession is also telling. BRS entered it at a little over 6 mppa, three times more than CWL's 2 mppa but is now four times busier.

That is likely to be the main reason that CWL has been suffering in relation to BRS for the past two decades. The latter is seen as more resilient when times are bad with BRS, though not immune (it lost about 10% of its passenger numbers from its 2008 peak but began a recovery in 2010 which stalled over the winter though), much less negatively affected.

It might be thought that if CWL doesn't put in a big effort in the next year or two the gap between the two will continue to widen inexorably.

macdo has described the CWL core catchment area's make-up which no doubt is a major reason for the relative performances of the two Severnside airports.

Buster the Bear

19th Apr 2011, 12:21

My understanding is that the Cardiff base made a profit when Jet A1 was at $900 per tonne, but not at it's current price of $1200+.

dwlpl

19th Apr 2011, 12:27

My understanding is that the Cardiff base made a profit when Jet A1 was at $900 per tonne, but not at it's current price of $1200+.

EZY must be quids in with hedging 70% of its needs at $734 per tonne.

macdo

19th Apr 2011, 13:54

MV, thanks for fleshing out my generalisations. You are spot on about the early nineties which I remember well. BRS, like CWL, was a nice little airport to do your twin rating at and little else was happening. CWL much the same. So now we have CWL flatlining and BRS, after expidential growth, having a recession respite.
I don't know much about BRS airport management, but I have years of experience watching CWL airport management cocking it up. I think that CWL could be viable if run well, which it patently isn't at the moment.

bycrewlgw

19th Apr 2011, 14:55

Hey guys, I am a welsh boy through and through and would love to see Cardiff as a major airport with worldwide flights (pipedream at moment i know). Obviously not living in the CWL catchment area means that I dont fly from Cardiff anymore.

I do have a burning question that i've not asked before and would be interested in feedback.

How many people on here who critize the airport management or airlines for pulling / losing routes have actually put their hands in their pockets and booked flights?

How many of you have booked onto the new ZRH service or the ill fated NQY service?

I dont mean to be rude or funny with this question to anyone but just interested in the answer! :ok:

caaardiff

19th Apr 2011, 17:34

I understand your questions, and would also be interested to know. But its not the followers of Pprune and WAN that keep the airport propped up and moving.
Its the Welsh public. There are often English accents travelling from CWL. There was alot on the recent P&O cruise charters. The biggest question is, who is going to pay for the marketing to get the Welsh accent back on the right side of the bridge?

ZRH, in time, will probably do quite well in my opinion. Don't forget, as of next winter, there is 1 less Ski route. Whether Skiiers use Helvetic as a flight only option, or travel agents start doing block bookings from CWL-ZRH and provide a package, is something that can be worked on, and suggested to those agents out there.

NQY was always a stop gap for CWL-MAN and more recently CWL-NCL for T3.
When Skybus operated, not enough advertising was done. When ASW operated, the advertising was pretty good, but aircraft probably too big.

Also Monarch are not neccessarily a seat only operator. They have cosmos, previously a brand known in South Wales and Southwest, albeit quite a while ago. Its an opportunity for a new tour operator to move in on South Wales, with CWL being known mainly as a profitable charter operation for many years.
Personally i do agree BRS would have the edge over CWL in terms of attractiveness of airport, but you never what could happen. If Monarch move into BRS, it may encourage TOM or TCX to expand their CWL base to provide a stronger presence for both CWL and BRS.

TwinAisle

20th Apr 2011, 03:47

For reasons I won't bore you with, I've just been analysing CWL pax data since 1997 (using that as a statistical base of 100), and comparing that with the other UK regional airports (all of them, minus H&I, London, CI, IoM in effect), and against BRS.

I didn't see what I expected to see.

Discounting the last news from WW, CWL has actually been pretty much on the growth average. Shocking, I know, and not what I thought I'd see, but the numbers are in the public domain, if anyone wants to analyse them. BRS is very much an oddball, statistically; the performance there has been way above the average, so while comparisons with Bristol make scintillatingly awful reading, it's not terribly fair so to do.

TA

virginblue

20th Apr 2011, 07:51

So if am not mistaken, if we are looking at year-round, scheduled services CWL will be down to 6 airlines (Aer Arann, Manx2, Helvetic, Flybe, Eastern and KLM), with all of them except Flybe operating a single route (?). How many departures will that be on an average day?

leisurelad

20th Apr 2011, 11:32

What CWL needs is new charter routes but at gatwick prices not the overpriced Thomson and Thomas Cook rates.

Why do you think people head across the bridge to our rivals - example easyjet routes to corfu/crete/cyprus/turkey if booked in advance are considerably cheaper than booking from CWL.

Would be good to have some greek routes, even for peak season say late may - september. If the price is right they would be full.

In the last 4 yrs i have only used CWL once, the rest are all from bristol - price at the end of the day. I would love to use CWL as its only down the road but if its saving me £70pp + then i will cross the bridge and take my business elsewhere.

Maybe it is not the management we need to look at all the time but the Operators and the monopoly they have.
The welsh i feel are conned by these companies.

Facelookbovvered

20th Apr 2011, 11:53

Its all about economy of scale BRS has it CWL doesn't

I can't imagine that WW pulled the plug for the end of summer because they were making money at CWL

macdo

22nd Apr 2011, 12:25

Twin Aisle, why would we be surprised by CWL reflecting the UK wide growth in Air Passenger traffic? What your figures do not show is frailty of the CWL growth vs. the robustness of that at other regional airports, as you say BRS is the outlier statistically, but has also had a disproportionate negative effect on the poorly run CWL. This effect only becomes visible when the going gets tough and CWL pax figures and airlines evaporate while BRS is less effected. Pretty much the same situation with the failing Coventry vs the successful Birmingham Int. There is only so much cake to go round.

LEISURELAD, if the IT operators did not include the supplement for operating at regional bases, then they would withdraw the services tomorrow. Every time someone tries it cheaper, they go bust. Turkey last year, Florida a couple of years back, others I can't be bothered to remember. Rest assured TCX and TOM make literally a 'few quid' on selling an IT package. So the more they sell the cheaper they get. Thus at LGW and MAN where they sell 10's of thousands of hols, its cheaper than CWL (or BFS or EDI or BOH theres no racisim in it) where its in the lower thousands.
Unfortunately, the attitude of saving a few quid and driving to BRS for your trip, is step by step, leading to the downfall of CWL. I don't blame you as I'd do the same if the numbers don't stack up, thats Capitalisim, red in tooth and claw!

TwinAisle

22nd Apr 2011, 12:38

Fully agree with your second and third paragraphs, Macdo.

The people I thought would find my observations surprising were those who assume that CWL has been in terminal decline for years, and was miles off the game. I was surprised to see that this is not true, except in comparison with BRS, which as I think we both agree is an anomaly ;)

Not sure what you mean when you wrote about robustness; CWL has gone up and down like everyone else - again excepting the BRS situation, so I'm not sure what the robustness metric would be. The point I was trying to make was that beating up CWL and its management for their performance against BRS is perhaps not fair; its rather akin to someone attacking Audi for their cars not being fast enough compared to Ferrari's, whilst against most of the opposition they aren't bad...

TA

macdo

22nd Apr 2011, 18:14

Hi TA
, well I guess it depends on the standpoint that you have on where CWL is in the UK regional pecking order, also to some extent its view of itself and the political culture influencing both.

CWL reflects the desire of the Welsh Assemby for Wales to be seen as more than a region of the UK. As such, it has persuaded itself that Wales and Cardiff being the capital needs an International Airport. Now, once upon a time the International bit meant something to people, but that has been lost as international travel has become routine. That didn't stop Cardfif International Airport getting a bit carried away with its place in the world and between the management and the politico's they began to think that they could walk on water.
Now, when times were good CIA,as was, managed to alienate most of the big LoCo operators with high charges. Eventually, WW gave it a try and largely made a reasonable fist of it. Unfortunately, like the airport, WW themselves have a fatal flaw as the unloved child of BMI etc. So, no matter how you talked it up, when the poo hit, it was almost inevitable that it would fail, as sadly WW will in its entirety when the cash runs out. We now have the situation where the Spanish own the place and the sense of ruderlessness is palpable in the place. So, no I don't think its unfair to beat up the management and the Welsh Assembly for mismanaging the whole thing for the last 15 years. IMHO the main reason BRS grew as it did, was that it fed (and continues to feed) from CWL's market. Had that market been nurtured and encouraged with infrastructure, marketing, attracting a major LoCo with a proper pricing structure, BRS may have been left as the 2nd rate dump that it was 15 years ago. Anyone remember the old terminal there?
So we are where we are, CWL is not robust because it has no major scheduled player, limited and shrinking market, failing political support and no plans from the Spanish to take things forward.
Sorry to be so negative as my job is as stake too, but until boomtime comes again its a busted flush.

Zelo

27th Apr 2011, 19:56

The jungle drums are suggesting that bmibaby actually offered Cardiff extra aircraft, and a decent amount of expansion. However the management point blank refused to move on pricing. Anyone know more?

If its true, then they really must have an ace up their sleeve right? That or its a case of "will the last one to leave please turn out the lights".

I fear its the latter :ugh:

GROUNDHOG

27th Apr 2011, 20:31

If that is indeed true perhaps (they) were turned away as there is a price for the job and below that price it is of no commercial benefit. I don't think you could blame any management for that.

TwinAisle

27th Apr 2011, 20:37

A couple of points...

1. No-one outside of Abertis and bmibaby will have any real idea as to the charges imposed on the latter by the former;
2. Groundhog is quite correct - the comes a point where if the charges required by the airline are lower than the airport's costs, the answer is 'thanks but no thanks';
3. Why are bmibaby's motives being questioned? Perhaps they had really good reasons for leaving....

A lot of uninformed speculation going on. Not good and not helpful...

TA

macdo

28th Apr 2011, 09:24

Uninformed speculation is PPrunes Bread and Butter. :O Sorry, couldn't resist it.
Which ever way you cut it, CWL with no WW is a poorer place than with it. The remaining staff (squadrons of security) and a couple of office girls, still have to be paid. The tarmac will still need to be up-kept, as will the navaids and ATC. Although we were recently informed not to expect radar after normal hours as they can only afford to employ one operator. Ah. the joys of an NDB approach after a 10 hour day/night.

Plymouth announced its closure yesterday and I'm sure it will look very pretty as a housing estate.
Will Rhoose end up the same way, I wonder. Or will a red knight gallop in to save the day?

Facelookbovvered

28th Apr 2011, 20:41

I think CWL will survive for a few more years yet. The IT crowd will up their 2012 offering I'm sure. I guess there might be an outside chance that Jet2 or the still born FFB could turn up.

One can blame WW, the airport or Flybe, i think after WW moved its BFS operation to BHD and moved an airframe from CWL to serve STN it was game over for CWL for WW.

CWL is a bit like Hull in the sense that it has a catchment area (Hull the town not airport) which is cut of from the East by the North Sea, the South by the humber estuary and seen by many as a poor area, with high unemployment and a low income profile.....just reflect on BRS for a minute and you can see why it is powering ahead.

bmi have always avoided competion where they could and maybe the likes of MME & CWL could have done OK at $25 p/b but not now.

Welsh Bobby

30th Apr 2011, 10:20

I have been intrigued by the significant amount of extra flights layed on by TCX over Easter hols.
In addition to the based 320 they have operated extra flights to the same destinations of operation to TFS,FUE,AYT,ACE with 752 and 753 units.
Thts a fair bit of extra seats....and of course encouraging extra demand from CWL pax.

A few questions- is this more that last year? I only recall seeing an extra rotation of the based 320 to ACE and TFS last Easter.
How are the extra aircraft made available - arent they normally in use at their bases at this time of the year? Why hasnt competitor TOM picked up on this as the extra seats/demand must have brough a few extra quid in for TCX?

INKJET

30th Apr 2011, 10:25

These would have been on sale for some time not just laid on a few weeks ago, Easter is very late this year and the European Ski season is already over in most resorts so there are plenty of aircraft around.

SWBKCB

30th Apr 2011, 10:53

NCL as seen similar from TCX - seem to be GLA based units where the school Easter holidays are earlier.

mathers_wales_uk

30th Apr 2011, 20:24

Similar has been seen at Glasgow for a few years when it's the Schools two week break or miners fornight i think they call it.

As the summer season isn't in swing yet there is a lot of aircraft available plus flight schedules at other bases may also be tweaked to accomodate the extra demand required elswewhere.

You are correct in saying that last year wasn't the same or as busy as this but we did see extra flight or two.

Welsh Bobby

1st May 2011, 09:05

Now even a TCX 763 from Tunisia today! Surely this hasnt been filled with just CWL pax?

I say it again - a huge bonanza of extra seats over Easter for TCX and just shows the I.T demand,albeit intermittent, at CWL. A real contrast to TCX downgrading to a 320 for this coming summer period!

Why doesnt TOM seize on these opportunities?

SR71

1st May 2011, 09:25

Back of the envelope figures....

A 733 burning 2 tons/hour, flying for 16hrs a day costs an extra $288K to keep flying per month when fuel is $125/barrel versus $75/barrel.

Lets say an average ticket price is $75, WW need to sell an extra 3840 tickets a month to make up this difference.

A big catchment area with money makes a difference, especially when the same economics affect FlyBe, Thomson, Thomas Cook etc etc

:eek:

TwinAisle

1st May 2011, 10:54

Much worse than that, since the argument supposes that the extra lots of $75 go just to fuel... What about the extra PVCs, higher DOCs and insurance?

TA

macdo

1st May 2011, 18:26

Standard TCX procedure to move the a/c around to suit the school holidays. Has become more noticeable since local authorities have begun to stagger the school hols. "Glasgow Airlift" has been going on for years due to the big difference in Scottish term dates. There was a big (up to 2 week) split between England and Wales, so the tour operator has captialised on it. Just hope that every hol is sold at a profit.

mustrum_ridcully

23rd May 2011, 13:00

With Ryanair now cutting capacity, I think it's fair to say the chances of them opening at CWL are now even slimmer than before.

Ryanair Seat Cut Marks End of Discount Boom - Bloomberg (http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-05-23/ryanair-expects-similar-profit-this-year-on-fuel-slower-traffic-growth.html)

TwinAisle

23rd May 2011, 13:15

I'm not sure I believe what the article says....

If MO'L really thinks that he is economically better off parking 737-800s than flying them - or even better selling them, right now they command a real price premium because they are so sought after - then I'm applying to be the next pope....

Ryanair have for a while been slowly changing strategy, from one of growth to one of chasing return. (So has easyJet, hence the spat between management and Sir Stelios). And in any case, he is still looking to grow at 4% this year...

Builds the shareprice nicely, that. And guess who has lots of shares and keeps saying he is going to retire soon? :E

Remember this is a press release from a company that likes press releases, even when it has little to say, and especially when it thinks it can shock people into listening. Pay for a pee, anyone?

TA

planenut321

23rd May 2011, 15:14

Only 2 weeks late and they have released the route figures.

APRIL 2011

DESTINATION/PASSENGER APR 11/ PASSENGER APR 10/ % CHANGE/SEATS AVAILABLE/LFS

ABERDEEN/760/0/-/1618/46.97 **
ALICANTE/5988 /6784/-11.73
AMSTERDAM/10333/8541/20.98/12600/82.01
ANGLESEY (VALLEY/697/0/-/1596/44.0
ANTALYA/1290/790/63.29
ARRECIFE/3040 /2096/45.04
BELFAST CITY (GEORGE BEST/3118/3212/-2.93
BRIDGETOWN/508/256 /98.44
DALAMAN/1998/1188/68.18
DUBLIN/4916/4763/3.21/7920/62.07
EDINBURGH/6612/7710/-14.24/11232/58.87
FARO/1472/2983/-50.65
FUERTEVENTURA/1703/843/102.02
GENEVA/624/407/53.32
GLASGOW/4165/3740/11.36/7956/52.35
JERSEY/1117/1860/-39.95/1872 /59.67
LARNACA/183/0/-
LAS PALMAS/2362/1919/23.08
MALAGA/5745/6212/-7.52
MALTA/238/0/-
MONASTIR/889/1179/-24.60
MURCIA SAN JAVIER/1141/2140/-46.68
NEWCASTLE/1204/1638/-26.50/2836/42.45 **
NEWQUAY/253/0/-
PALMA DE MALLORCA/3399/4022/-15.49
PAPHOS/1583/1180/34.15
PARIS (CHARLES DE GAULLE)/2960/2365/25.16/4680/63.25
REUS/179/151/18.54
SHARM EL SHEIKH (OPHIRA)/3155/3960/-20.33
TENERIFE (SURREINA SOFIA)/7841/4522 /73.40
ZURICH 531/0/-/3200/16.59

Most routes show a rise due to the ash cloud. Some holiday routes are down as it all depends on when they started this summer compared to last, one week can mean the difference between 400 and 600 which is a drop of 1/3 or a gain of a half which ever way you look at it.

Some routes are quite worrying. EDI still dropping! Could this be due to Baby still being on it last year? At half the passengers that it used to carry in 2008. BHD down, NCL down.

For some routes I have done the Load Factors (% of seats filled). Some of BEs routes are doing well even EDI which is still carrying at 60%. JER is healthy and so it CDG. Others not, ZRH carrying at 15% in the first month. Not a great start but what we need is month on month growth. Big task for CWL.

Let you think of what you will with these results as they are not a great indication due to the ash cloud.

** Not sure if these figures are separate i.e. NCL figures people who just travelled to NCL and whose final destination was NCL and ABZ just to ABZ and not included in NCL figures. If they are seperate then ABZ is doing well and if they are separate then the NCL/ABZ flights as a whole are at 70% LF which is very good. If ABZ is generating 40% (~12 passengers) loads by itself then they may do it as a separate route in the future as T3 only need about 5/6 passengers to break even.

April
Number of Flights: 1,269
Percentage Change in Flights: 16.5%
Number of Passengers: 82,698
Percentage Change in Flights: 5.2%
Passenger Number Change April 2010: +4,088 (I hope my maths is right)

Rolling Year

Number of Flights: 17,038
Percentage Change in Flights: -11.4%
Number of Passengers: 1,362,580
Percentage Change in Flights: -11.4%

MARCH/-17,413/-15.7%
APRIL/-39,246/-33.9%
MAY/-26,619/-15.8%
JUNE/-24,337/-13.1%
JULY/-18,924/-10.4%
AUGUST/-16,257/-8.4%
SEPT/ -19,242/ -10.6%
OCT/ -12,947/ -8.4%
NOV/-6343/-8.01%
DEC/-10,195/-14.7%
JAN/-1907/-3.2%
FEB/-14,080/-18.1%
MARCH/-24,538/-26%
APRIL/+4,088/5%

We were expecting an increase in passenger figures but what is worrying is that we experienced the 6th lowest growth behind Lydd (3.7%), Penzance (3.6%), Cambridge (0%), Newquay (-10%), Shoreham (-61%). If it were not for the ash cloud we would have suffered quite a nasty drop in figures even with the Easter holidays.

This is a nice rest bite with, as I expect, quite heavy losses continuing for some time. If no carrier steps in for Baby then we will definitely see negative growth until at least Winter 2012 (even then it may be a bit hopeful), when the impact of baby departure will have surpassed a year.

mustrum_ridcully

23rd May 2011, 15:40

@TA I dunno Pope TwinAisle I has a certain ring to it ;)

You could well be right but with MOL you never really know what's going on.

TwinAisle

23rd May 2011, 16:03

Pope TwinAisle I has a certain ring to it

This one?

Ring of the Fisherman - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://bit.ly/2OTW6)

:ok:

I'll pass thanks. I don't look my best in a hat and a dress...

TA

planenut321

27th May 2011, 17:33

Phileas Fogg

27th May 2011, 18:46

Apparently the Helvetic ZRH/CWL/ZRH route experienced circa 16.5% load factors during April, i.e. an average of 16.5 pax per Fokker100 to/from CWL!

GAXLN

27th May 2011, 22:05

On that basis I would expect the ZRH service to be pulled before too long - end of summer season at latest - unless there's some huge support somewhere along the line.

Bartman27

28th May 2011, 01:20

Is the Zurich flight having any support from the assembly......

airvanman

28th May 2011, 08:14

I was amazed Helvetic were daft enough to start the service. The top Knobs at the airport or the Welsh Assembly must have holiday homes out in HB land!?

I am not a fan of Ryanair but they should of been given everything they asked for years ago. All airports are now more than ever are just shopping centres with a runway. They can rip off pax for parking and trap them in departures spending their money. CWL blew this opportunity letting RYR go.
RYR could have 6 or more aircraft now based at CWL. All the pax that fly from BRS would use them and they could be giving EZY a run for their money?

The only hope for CWL is that it gets some based FlyBE a/c in the future?

Phileas Fogg

28th May 2011, 08:32

CWL Airport Management holiday home(s) would have been around the time BA decided to build the maintenance facility .....

As negotiations were reaching the 'signed, sealed, delivered' stage the then airport director, it may have been his wife, had bought up land adjacent to the airport that part of the maintenance facility now resides on, the land had been bought for a cheap price and became sold to BA for a much higher price only a short period of time later.

One airport director sacking/resignation later .....

macdo

2nd Jun 2011, 09:34

:D I knew Swansea had its own Mafia, now I know Cardiff has one too! Thanks for that story, it was new to me.
Flew home last night from my own hols from RDS, 162 pax on 180 seat a/c, in half term week. When we checked in last week, place was like a ghost town, never seen the like at this time of year.

Oldtimer1

6th Jun 2011, 13:54

Anyone got any idea if CWL are in any ''positive'' talks with replacement carriers?

Rumour has it that LS and MON talks went badly and CWL management can't afford not to get someone in to replace baby or is it too late? http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/puppy_dog_eyes.gif

I heared similar from a friend that the Jet2 talks went very badly and they have all but ruled themselves out of using Cardiff (Im ex-industry- now retired). Not heared much on Monarch but I wouldnt expect them to do anything but limited charters during the summer months. When you look who else there are, flybe are the obvious choice for main carrier, however I can only see them having limited expansion on domestic and very short haul flights to cater to any demand. EZY and RYR are out of the picture. Cardiff is reallly in the brown stuff when it come to its future. Lets hope management can pull somthing out of the bag.

I suppose the good news is that TOM is bound to have a small increase in bucket and spade destinations next year, as small a consolidation that it.

(PS- I was a member of pprune several years ago, but sadly forgot my username and have no access to my email address any more)

crackling jet

10th Jun 2011, 13:35

Not sure if i've read it wrong but on the Blackpool thread there is a referrence to (LS) Jet 2 at Cardiff, any news anyone?

planenut321

10th Jun 2011, 15:13

LS have been in discussion with CWL. It didn't go well.

fanrailuk

15th Jun 2011, 13:55

At last, there seems to be a slight glimmer of hope that something is to be done about the damn state of affairs at the airport thanks to intervention from the WAG; fingers crossed there'll be ££ involved - airlines like ££! :ok:

BBC News - Carwyn Jones's concern over future of Cardiff Airport (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-13776710)

TwinAisle

15th Jun 2011, 14:36

Sadly, whilst airlines like ££s, they don't like the possibility of being hauled up in front of various chunks of the EU if they get the said ££s from government...

This is not a problem that money needs to be thrown at.

TA

crackling jet

16th Jun 2011, 14:34

nice to see fair competition is still around-not, so reading the article in the press report attached a couple of responses back, explains why a near empty aircraft flies backwards and forwards every day to Zurich, what was the phrase used, oh yes that's right "after a successful partnership between the airline and the welsh government was reached", resulted in the new daily service.

Now with figures of 16.6% seats filled stated on some of the movements, does that mean the welsh government ie the tax payer, (i won't say local tax payer, as it will probably end up as over budget and will be covered by top up from the english government) are subsidising the empty 83.4% seats?

Money isn't the problem, as said so many times before, there isn't the catchment to sustain the growth.

Going back 20 years the position of Cardiff and Bristol were reversed, and at one time Bristol City Council had a meeting to decide the future of the ailing airpot, whether to close it or get someone in to turn it around, lickily the latter was chosen and Les Wilson was brought in and at times the meteoric rise in fortune and business began.

This situation is still prevelant today and stated money was not the answer as at that time we had just been designated as a regional development area (southwest RDA) which was only shut down last year and in that time Bristol Airport never had a penny from it, it was all down to the managements hard work.

In addition this all coincided with the building of a new town and vast business park in the area at the time as well as the local area is full of retirees with plenty of money and time to spend it, which unfortunately Cardiff does not.

blue up

26th Jun 2011, 07:31

Anyone know an approximate number of light GA movements per day average this summer? I've been trying to get a ride before I retake my Group A licence, just to find out what has changed in the 15 years since I last flew light A/C.:O

If anyone has a spare seat....

chrisy08

27th Jun 2011, 12:04

Hello..

Can anyone tell me what aircraft will be used for the TCX7926 Cardiff to Antalya tomorrow? I heard it was an Airbus A320, but when you go on Flightstats.co.uk it says it's a Boeing 757.... The reason I know it's a A320, is because I am going on this flight tomorrow on holiday, and it says A320, however when looking on stats it says Boeing 757.. Have Thomas Cook changed there aircraft from A320 to 757?

sam1993

27th Jun 2011, 12:09

It is indeed an A320. Flightstats seems to show all Thomas Cook flights as being operated by a 757 :ok:

chrisy08

27th Jun 2011, 12:26

Thank you.. I would have preferred a 757 tbh :P

G3jetman

29th Jun 2011, 09:55

Just looked on WAN as it seems to me that the site needs a moderator...or is it school children messing about. Get real!! You have a major geographical problem and that is you have a good airport in the wrong place with a weak catchment area! Just looked on CWL site and the have had 9 departures from 0600 to 1100...then looked at BRS and they've had 34 departures from 0600 to 1100....dopes not need rocket science to work out that a lot of work needs to be done!! Good luck!

benjiman1994

30th Jun 2011, 15:15

It was 10 actually :L CWL will in the near future have more airlines and routes available, I can assure you.

G3jetman

30th Jun 2011, 15:58

9 or 10 what does it matter..it is still a pity poor show for the summer. I hope for CWL sake it improves but Flybe profits are down and you'll see contraction....it really is a difficult market and if Baby can't do it you'll need a miracle

benjiman1994

30th Jun 2011, 16:31

I agree that it is a poor state. Baby's flights weren't comparitive in cost to Ryanair's/Easyjet's, thats what has pushed people to BRS, Baby simply wasn't LoCo enough ! So, either Ryanair, Easyjet, Jet2 or even another charter airline Monarch, could then compete with the likes of TOM and TCX if the pricing structure and route network was there

macdo

30th Jun 2011, 16:51

Please Ben, I can see you are new, but you are trying my patience. WAN are well meaning but some of them don't see what is self evident. There is no business case for CWL's existence at the moment. This will likely change with a change of ownership, but, like Greece, it is delusional to think that a White Knight will ride in and save the day.

Sorry I add this to underline the point, today Cardiff INTERNATIONAL! Airport
had no ILS,DME, or NDB operational. Therefore, the only instrument approach available was a SRA, something I haven't done for 25 years. Thankfully, it was a fine day for a visual approach, but honestly, what sort of airport allows all of its landing facilities to be u/s at the same time? :ugh:

benjiman1994

30th Jun 2011, 17:07

G3jetman

30th Jun 2011, 17:11

I know where you are coming from Macdo....just look at Notams about the ILS benjiman....you need to wake up!

G3jetman

30th Jun 2011, 17:15

Check this notam out :-

EGTT/QICAS/I/NBO/A/000/999/5124N00321W005
B) FROM: 11/06/29 19:43C) TO: 11/06/30 23:59
E) RWY 30 ILS I-CWA U/SFOLLOWING APPROACH PROCEDURES ARE WITHDRAWNILS/DME/NDB(L) RWY 30LOC/DME/NDB(L) RWY 30RADAR VECTORED APPROACHES ARE AVAILABLE DURING THE PROMULGATED HOURSOF SERVICE. RANGE CHECKS WILL BE GIVEN AND AMENDED MISSED APPROACHINSTRUCTIONS WILL BE ISSUED.

benjiman1994

30th Jun 2011, 17:21

That is only a temporary maintenance issue

G3jetman

30th Jun 2011, 17:22

There is an ILS in operation and has been for years. The runway and ground operations facilities are two of the main reasons that we are home to one of the largest maintenance hangars in the world (BAMC). #

Benjiman...what you say above is true....BAMC does not bring bums on seats and also they are many bigger hangar facilities worldwide that dwarf CWL.

benjiman1994

30th Jun 2011, 17:59

That may be true, hence the phrase 'one of'
CWL has potential and market, I keep telling everyone. I have dedicated time into conducting customer surveys etc. and providing support from my blog

http://aviationwales.********.com/

Visit, and find out what I am all about guys ...

Phileas Fogg

30th Jun 2011, 18:22

I'd suggest that one just needs to travel up the road a way to North East of Swindon, beside the village of Carterton, to view a hangar/maintenance facility larger than that at CWL!

Ooops ..... mustn't mention England :)

TwinAisle

1st Jul 2011, 09:04

Macdo has hit the nail on the head.

Cardiff's problem is simply that right now no carrier has enough belief in the presence, resilience and non-seasonality of the market to risk considerable sums of money to start a base, or even routes, from there.

All the chest beating in the world on WAN, or anywhere else, won't alter that fact - the only way that airlines are going to get interested is if (a) their other, local, bases start to face massive capacity issues (not for a while, that one), or (b) the WG starts putting money into the pot massively (of questionable legality, not sustainable and potential political suicide in a time when pensions are under attack), or (c) considerable effort is put into real, empirical data collection and research as to how big the market actually is, to prove it is there, and to go and tell the airlines THAT message.

I suppose that this dry, real, message won't be well received in some quarters. Less wise and less experienced heads than many of the learned friends on PPRuNe may point to past glories, or note that they and their gran would definitely use a given service, or how many people in the pub tell them that Cardiff is too expensive to fly from, or perpetuate the myth that Cardiff is massively expensive to operate to. But sadly the message is the hard, cold facts of life in the airline industry today.

No amount of abuse of the airport management, abuse of the WG, or abuse of the messenger by the hard of thinking will alter the facts.

Cardiff is a huge risk for any operator, and in these times, no-one wants risk.

TA

Phileas Fogg

1st Jul 2011, 11:13

Are the BP refuellers @ CWL still on a commission for each litre/kg of fuel they deliver?

Doesn't serve to make the price of fuel at CWL the most competitive it could be!

benjiman1994

1st Jul 2011, 15:07

Yes, I do agree that with your points. However, there must be at least one airline out there that is at least interested, surely ?
Personally, I would like to see Monarch but that is just a personal preference.

Also, I think that the terminal itself could be improved as there are no viewing areas for PAX etc, although there was one but was closed down. Also, the departure lounge is incredibly claustrophobic due to once again the lack of windows. Renovation, and Customer Satisfaction are key here.
If CWL cannot be resolved, the future of Welsh Aviation lies at Pembrey. I have seen the plans for the proposed terminal and they look modern and amazing. Also, the runway has a potential size of 4000m due to the area, although it is currently only around 800m or so.

TwinAisle

1st Jul 2011, 15:48

Interesting. You agree with my points and then don't.

The length of the runway, the access to the airport, the shininess of the taps in the gents loo and the weather record all add up to a bucket of spit if the market isn't proven. Forget them, focus on the market!

What goes for Cardiff goes ten fold for Pembrey. If the market for the former is suspect, the market for the latter REALLY is.

TA

benjiman1994

1st Jul 2011, 16:01

Yes, i suppose you are correct. I think that all of this about the market and catchment area has got to be false. Cardiff airport serves all of south wales, bristol and surrounding areas, mid wales, and possibly even gets some custom from further afield. The Cardiff City owners (Malaysian) were talking about allowing malaysians to come to watch cardiff city, with perhaps the link of AirAsia, however I havent heard any more about this, and I do doubt that would happen now.

TwinAisle

1st Jul 2011, 16:29

Prove the market to the airlines and they will beat a path to the runway. Fail to do so and prepare for even more route closures....

TA

benjiman1994

1st Jul 2011, 16:59

Totally agree, but we are going to need to do this for the airlines, as the airport management seems reluctant to make any form of move on this sort of thing ...

xtypeman

1st Jul 2011, 17:25

Also we do not need to be concerned with terminals check-in desks et al. When FR and Easy started at Liverpool the terminal was described as a converted chicken shed but just 12 checkin desks copped with 3.5 to 4m pax. Cardiff is ok as it is once the economic recoverey has firmly setin in South Wales that expansion will happen again. It will not be overnight more like a couple of years. Only then do we need to look at the terminal what would be worse an old terminal or a white elephant!

TwinAisle

2nd Jul 2011, 08:40

Just been reading your blog, benjiman1994. A couple of things leap out.

Whilst I admire your enthusiasm, it won't win you friends making comments like

AirWales [that] ceased all operations in 2006, primarily due to a lack of management experience.

That was most certainly not Air Wales' problem, and the people who were running it may well take the hump at being told about their lack of experience by a 17 year old...

I can tell you that it is the Customer Service that makes customers return, not necessarily your prices.

I would go and read Ryanair's results if I were you....

CWL is home to the largest maintenance hangar in the World

No it isn't.

Very good luck with starting an airline. As a free bit of consulting, work on the assumption that you'll need a minimum of £35m to do it from Cardiff. Happy to explain where that figure comes from, but put it this way, I do this sort of stuff for a living....:p

we are going to need to do this for the airlines

A noble aim, and one that provides the path to making CWL work. But I would suggest that urging others to do this is the way ahead, unless you have a lot of money and a background in market research techniques, quantitative analysis and a lot of time on your hands! :)

xtypeman makes a good observation - why on earth do you need more check in desks given the pax numbers? The ones there are just fine. Refurbishing them just adds to the airport's woes and cost base...

TA

Phileas Fogg

2nd Jul 2011, 12:13

I read some nonsense that these CWL 'Reggie Spotter' enthusiast(s) want to start an airline that is claimed there will be so much demand for etc.

Well it's dead easy to do that, to put money where mouth is ... Manx2 currently operate a Do228 from/to CWL, just ask Manx2 to acquire a Boeing, an Airbus, or whatever and all Reggie Spotter PLC needs to do is finance it.

It's as simple as that .... time to put up or shut up, time to call bluffs one thinks :)

nospeedrestriction9

2nd Jul 2011, 12:44

Benjiman1994 -What makes you think Monarch will be "loco enough" if Baby aren't?!?! They have a comparible, if not higher cost base and their brand is virtually unknown in Wales.

It will be very expensive to market the brand unless they offer a significant number of services from CWL.

benjiman1994

2nd Jul 2011, 17:27

I believe the way forward for CWL is another airline like TOM and TCX, this lies with MON. People are starting to come back aboard many flights in summer from CWL rather than BRS because CWL has more favorable flight times this year at CWL. Boost in numbers I hope.

Severn

2nd Jul 2011, 23:04

benjiman1994-
People are starting to come back aboard many flights in summer from CWL rather than BRS because CWL has more favorable flight times this year at CWL. Boost in numbers I hope.
Firstly, with what figures are you referring to that you can be so sure that people are coming back to CWL from BRS?
Secondly, I am intrigued to know which flight times are more favourable in CWL rather than BRS.....? Its definitely not any of the Scheduled flights, and the reason that the charters from BRS may have more unsociable flight times is that both TCX and TOM are utilising there aircraft more than they are at CWL as there is a DEMAND for it.

benjiman1994

3rd Jul 2011, 07:29

New article of Aviation Wales that details the uprise of the Welsh tourist sector
http://aviationwales.********.com/

nospeedrestriction9

3rd Jul 2011, 08:49

Benjamin, I totally disagree with your comments, unless you can back it up with statistics.

The reality is that CWL is loosing passengers like a leaky bucket and will not easily get them back without a large commitment from a carrier such as Ryanair (unlikely), easyjet (unlikely) or jet2. It will soon become a regional airport with a few summer/winter charters.

That view may be different from that of a baggage handler of course :E

TwinAisle

3rd Jul 2011, 08:52

I think you missed three 'very's and an 'unlikely' there, NSR9...

TA

Phileas Fogg

3rd Jul 2011, 09:03

NSR9 has also missed that it is not possible to get sound reasoning across if the other party is unwilling to listen. :)

WALES-TAG-TOP

3rd Jul 2011, 09:11

I note a lot of press recently re.Shale Gas at Llandow, perhaps, along with limestone as well in the area, CWL is sitting on a fortune???

plaincrazy

3rd Jul 2011, 11:31

Wikipedia is stating a list of routes that are due to start from CWL in May 2012.

Where has this come from and is it true?

benjiman1994

3rd Jul 2011, 11:39

Plaincrazy can you please provide a link to whatever page you are viewing because i cannot see what you are seeing on the cardiff airport wikipedia page.

Thank you

benjiman1994

3rd Jul 2011, 11:41

aha i see, that is very very very extremely interesting. PLEASE BE TRUE, PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE !!!

plaincrazy

3rd Jul 2011, 11:41

Cardiff Airport - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cardiff_Airport)

planenut321

3rd Jul 2011, 12:46

Very sceptical of anything posted on Wiki. A few months ago it was posted that BE were launching several routes which never happened, think GCI was one. Would be great if true, but with it being on Wiki and how talks ''apparently'' have gone with LS and CWL I find this very hard to believe. Looks like at least 2 based aircraft if true.

Severn

3rd Jul 2011, 15:05

Looking at history of edits to the CWL airport Wiki page, it seems that only yesterday, Sat 2nd July, the whole Jet2 line was added with the proposed new routes......

benjiman1994

3rd Jul 2011, 15:12

I will not be believing anything until an official announcement by either Jet2 or CWL themselves.

Phileas Fogg

3rd Jul 2011, 22:06

So even if there were a Jet2 fleet parked on the tarmac at Rhoose International Aerodrome you still wouldn't believe it unless an official announcement were made?

PPRuNe Pop

8th Jul 2011, 16:54

One or two of you are sailing too close to the wind! We are reluctant to close the CWL forum but we will remove your ability to post - for quite a while. Hope that is clear.

Grow up and enter a proper debate. Pissing contests are banned.

planenut321

8th Jul 2011, 17:01

Have emailed 2L about winter schedule at CWL. CWL-ZRH will continue for the Winter season but schedule still not finalised.

Also TCX is to fly twice weekly to FUE (up one from 2010) and to PFO (no longer seasonal) for the winter season on top of the usual 2 weekly TFS, 1 weekly ACE and one weekly LPA. This will be joined by NBE in Feb.

Rachman

13th Jul 2011, 08:32

It will soon become a regional airport with a few summer/winter charters.

I don't recall CWL as ever having been anything else. Just to a greater or lesser extent.

Lone_Ranger

17th Jul 2011, 13:38

I wish the Fantasists would stay in Wales Air Network, where they belong

chrisy08

22nd Jul 2011, 10:51

I just wanted to add this to the thread.......

Last week I come back from Antalya with TCX, only to find the airplane half full...... Surely this is not a good sign...................

GROUNDHOG

22nd Jul 2011, 11:07

The only thing I can add is that the two weeks prior to the start of school holidays have always been the most difficult to sell, but, of course any empty seat is revenue lost.

macdo

22nd Jul 2011, 11:25

There is only one thing worse than an empty seat, that's a full seat that you sold at a loss. MYT learnt that the hard way.
Load factor for the 180 seat a/c has been excellent for the last few week and I have rarely had more than 4 seats available on any flight since the end of May. I do hope that the margins are being held, as otherwise my opening comment is again the case.

GROUNDHOG

22nd Jul 2011, 13:49

contribution from an empty seat = nowt. You can't get lower than nowt....;)

JSCL

22nd Jul 2011, 13:52

Rather make nowt than a loss!

macdo

22nd Jul 2011, 14:12

89kg over 4000 miles return trip equals wasted fuel, loss making pax cost airport duty both ends....so on and so forth.....just one of those wipes out the wafer thin profit on a profitable pax.

benjiman1994

22nd Jul 2011, 16:14

On the route development front, still no news on any new airlines :/. We just have to wait for the Berlin Route Conference in October, in which I hope CWL attend, they have a pretty bad attendance record at these events

Phileas Fogg

22nd Jul 2011, 16:18

There is news of a new airline ..... some kiddie has registered a domain www.skyblueairways.co.uk with all sorts of idiotic route ideas.

benjiman1994

22nd Jul 2011, 16:47

Helvetic's load factor up from 18% to 23% in June

That is the question ! However, it is continuing into this winter. I think it could be secretly subsidised by the Welsh Assembly Government as no airline would keep on selling the route after 5 months of low load factors ?

I would like to see it continue mind, although I believe and always have that the 'Bucket & Spade' routes are better from CWL, rather than cities.

adfly

22nd Jul 2011, 16:53

Whens it being dropped then?

Danny_R

22nd Jul 2011, 17:17

There is news of a new airline ..... some kiddie has registered a domain www.skyblueairways.co.uk with all sorts of idiotic route ideas.

He's taken the website down now.

although I believe and always have that the 'Bucket & Spade' routes are better from CWL, rather than cities.

If that's the case, your skyblue project would be better off proposing such bucket and space routes, rather than the city routes you have listed initially.

chrisy08

22nd Jul 2011, 17:24

It would be great for a new start up to begin at Cardiff.. the gap has opened from BMI Baby for this to happen surely......

Small startup airline like Eastern Airways, Air Wales (when it was around) etc... I don't see why the Welsh Government wouldn't get behind a new airline HA!!!!! ;)

benjiman1994

22nd Jul 2011, 17:36

I dont think they would Chrisy08. As much as I would have liked them to get behind Sky Blue Airways, which I proposed but that's all I received was a ticking off by people on here and to be honest I wouldn't really know where to start, hence the reason why i took it down. I would of course appreciate some people to help me as I paid a ground breaking £52 for that domain :L

JSCL

22nd Jul 2011, 21:41

£52? Nice big investment. So where's the other £10m coming from ?

caaardiff

22nd Jul 2011, 22:21

TCX at different times during the year use the aircraft in Glasgow during the Scottish Peak holidays.
The past few weeks the aircraft positioned to GLA, operated the outbound flight then came direct back to CWL with pax on board, and vice versa later on - operated out of with CWL pax then back to GLA with pax and pos back to CWL. This may have something to do with the low load factor on your flight, as it may be only bringing a weeks worth of pax back once it started back up again.

TwinAisle

22nd Jul 2011, 23:00

£10m, JSCL? Having done rather a lot of airline business planning, for start ups and existing carriers, I would suggest a figure four times larger than that.

Benjiman, let me give you a little free advice - and since I make a living giving advice, you are getting a good deal out of me.

No-one but no-one is going to talk to you about starting an airline. I have in the past worked with some remarkably strong management teams, with centuries of airline management experience between them, and even they find it hard to raise capital. Right now, virtually no-one is investing in start ups. No-one will be investing in a Cardiff start up. You are going to be asking someone to trust you with some £40-50m of their money, you have no experience, and on the website you put together you admitted that you couldnt do market research, write a business plan or analyse aircraft choice. Would YOU lend you that sort of money? Do you think the CAA will look at you twice as regards a post holder position?

Go and get a job in the industry, get some experience and track record, then come back to this. Right now, you're making yourself look foolish, I am sorry to say.

One last thought - be very careful when you choose a brand name. I would imagine that the good folks at Skyblue Aviation may have thoughts on your current one.... Home (http://skyblueaviation.com/)...

Btw, the speculation on the viability of routes based on load factor is meaningless unless you have a good idea of yields. That's airline financial management 101. I would also bet that WAG is not 'secretly subsidising' Helvetic, or anyone else. Do a google search on Ryanair, Sabena and Charleroi for a hint why I am so confident on this one...

TA

JSCL

22nd Jul 2011, 23:08

@TwinAisle

For the CWL Market, a £10M budget is realistic. Nice class B from the CAA and a bunch of 19 seat Jetstreams, because that's all CWL will need.

Danny_R

23rd Jul 2011, 00:31

Have to agree with Twinaisle, as much as a lot of 17 year olds may dream about starting their own airline, you need to admit to yourself it's not going to happen. Just look at Martin Halstead, he tried and tried but still couldn't get off the ground. Do what he didn't and go out and get a job within the industry and get some experience, you can then come back to thinking about a start-up when you're in your 20's or 30's.

The setup you have described will easily need the 40m mentioned, if anything you should be looking at the 'tour operator' route of chartering an aircraft for a weekly or twice weekly flight to a holiday hotspot, that would need less capital.

Regardless of that though, you would no doubt have serious issues with Cardiff Airport, as has already been mentioned on here, Cardiff's talks with Jet2 and Monarch have not gone well, if two major UK carriers can't get anywhere with Cardiff what chance has a new start up got.
I know personally that Cardiff have recently fallen out with one of the biggest UK 'holiday extra' providers who work with most UK airports and airlines. Cardiff's management seem hell bent on pushing away any prospective business and until that changes Cardiff is going to continue the downward trend.

benjiman1994

23rd Jul 2011, 08:22

No Surveys here. Certainly without asking. Mods

TwinAisle

23rd Jul 2011, 08:40

Benjiman, are you reading ANYTHING people are posting on this forum?

Your survey I am afraid will reveal nothing - it is not the deep and quantitative analysis that investors require. Your sample is now corrupted in statistical terms, since you have invited a biased audience (the folks on here!) - the man and woman in the street who will need to buy tickets will not take part.

Sorry - but really, go and work in the business for a few years. Please.

JSCL - in all my professional life, and business plans for probably 100 airlines by now, I have NEVER seen anyone make any money with a fleet of 19 seaters... Type B licenses are fine for air taxi work, PSO fulfilment and a few other high yield activities, but for scheduled operations on routes more than 40 mins? No chance. I'll stick to my estimate of £40m minimum.

TA

GROUNDHOG

23rd Jul 2011, 08:40

Now I am no legal expert but I suggest Ryanair my have an opinion on what you have said about them. I admire your enthusiasm but you really must be careful.

I am afraid all this nonsense is doing Cardiff no good at all and in danger of making it a laughing stock.

Phileas Fogg

23rd Jul 2011, 18:49

Right …..

As far as European city routes are concerned these are already served from/to CWL by KLM and as for this Helvetic ZRH route, I recently ran a CWL/ZRH/CWL price comparison on an online travel agent site, on dates that had the cheaper Helvetic fares, and it was still £100 cheaper to fly CWL/ZRH/CWL with KLM than with Helvetic!

It’ll be hard to find a popular European city that is not served by KLM, or indeed Air France as one can route via CDG also, and KLM currently offer 240 seats in each direction daily from/to CWL to/from Europe and indeed the world.

All this talk that BRS are doing so much better than CWL, that it seems the sun shines out of BRS’s backside or similar, well for European and Worldwide city destinations, in addition to KLM, BRS also have Air France and whatever Sabena are calling themselves this week however the mighty Lufthansa launched services to link BRS with Lufthansa’s worldwide network, a very modestly sized ‘pocket rocket’ operation, well Lufthansa cancelled the service, I think, after only one season due to a lack of interest which goes to prove the point that the ‘city’ passenger numbers in south west (ish) UK just aren’t there.

And as for worldwide destinations I personally booked and travelled, last summer, CWL to Singapore with Air France, I could have booked with KLM but it was some £200 cheaper to book with AF via CDG, and I returned from that trip Manila to Cardiff with KLM thus KLM, Air France, indeed Alitalia can be booked from/to CWL and the world and if travelling CWL to/from N. America one can also book with Delta.

So … if the mighty Lufthansa can’t make a European city destination, with through fares to the world, work out of BRS then what chance has a start-up operator got of making a European city destination, WITHOUT through fares to the world, work out of CWL?

Once KLM’s overall load factors may reach 80% or above, and before KLM may get around to operating larger aircraft on the route, that’ll be the time to encourage a competitor airline in but until such load factors may be achieved … well forget it.

Routes here, there and everywhere are nothing more than the whims of an aircraft enthusiast, a ‘spotter’, and as for surveys …. Well one could ask the public if they would like a by-pass built around their town and if they’d like Tesco’s to reduce the price of baked beans by 1p, the majority would probably answer “Yes” but don’t think for one minute that they’re all about to jump in their cars to drive around the new by-pass to Tesco’s to stock-up with baked beans.

pug

23rd Jul 2011, 19:41

Well put PF. Pretty much sums up the situation many of the UK regional airports are in now due to the consolidation of the last few years. I personally dont see what the problem is at CWL. Surely even without WW it should still be handling 1million passengers a year quite comfortably.

RoyalWelsh

24th Jul 2011, 07:40

Todays KLM (Morning flight) to Amsterdam is being operated using a Fokker 100 instead of a Fokker 70, is this due to increased demand or will we be seeing the F100 more often ?
Please enlighten me with this matter,

RW

JSCL

24th Jul 2011, 08:03

@RoyalWelsh

Summer increases. Through summer I'd expect it to remain at f100 then drop back to an f70 off peak.

Just a guess of course.

GrahamK

24th Jul 2011, 08:31

The F100s are used as backup a/c, so I'd imagine it's just a substitution for the normal F70.

RoyalWelsh

24th Jul 2011, 08:34

Thanks guys, that is exactly what I was thinking. I would like to see the new Air France regional airline that is being launched soon to operate a few flights out of CWL. Anyone think this may happen ? (Air France have had codeshares on the cityhopper flights for years)
Anyone know what it is to be called ?

RW

Phileas Fogg

24th Jul 2011, 09:24

Air France have owned the CityHopper for a few years:

http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6126/5960964447_f95cc8a5fe_z.jpg

RoyalWelsh

24th Jul 2011, 10:26

Thanks PF, i didnt know that until now. From your experience do you think there will be any growth at CWL soon ?

RW

Phileas Fogg

24th Jul 2011, 10:52

RW,

Air France have owned KLM, all of KLM, for a number of years now, AF know precisely how many passengers use the KLM service and the final destinations of these passengers ... If AF aren't launching services to/from CWL anytime soon then there is a very good reason for it.

I can recall the days KLM operated Saab340 etc. on the route, these days the smallest aircraft KLM operate are the 80 seater F70 and they've managed to develop the route to justify 3 x F70's per day and over all these years no other operator, Air France, Sabena, Lufthansa etc, has moved in to compete with KLM which gives indication that the business isn't there.

As for leisure routes, well the locals tend to take their 2 week holidays during the summer not to return until the next summer, there's no significant requirement for year round holiday destination flights, the people of Wales seem to either work for 48 weeks per year or they don't work at all :) , we'd all like to take our leisure breaks 3 or 4 or more times per year but alas people need to work, people have children attending school, and far from everybody can afford to take 3 or 4 or more holidays per year.

Compare what was happening at Rhoose 20 years ago and, excluding BMIBaby, compare what is happening there now, I'd guesstimate that very little has changed and were we to be having this exchange in 20 years from now I'd suggest that very little will change in the next 20 years also, indeed circa 23 years ago Rhoose even had an aircraft manufacturer across the other side of the airfield, Desmond Norman, of 'Britten-Norman' fame, was manufacturing aircraft across there.

RoyalWelsh

24th Jul 2011, 10:57

PF

Indeed, we have all seen the decline. You just have to look at other regional UK Airports, they are also not performing too well at the moment. Latest CAA figures show CWL's total PAX for 2011 to once again be around 1.3 mppa. This is more than most other regional airports (I think) such as Blackpool, Manston, Durham tees valley, Doncaster etc. I cannot also see any growth anytime soon to be honest with you, especially now BMI Baby are leaving, it sends out a signal to other airlines, that if Baby cannot manage it, many others will not.
However, I am not sure of Baby's reasoning to leave the airport, some of the routes had pretty good load factors, so fair enough drop the baddies, but they could have kept a few routes open ...

RW

TwinAisle

24th Jul 2011, 11:02

Load factors mean relatively little. Unless you know the yields, there is no way of knowing whether the route is working. For all anyone outside bmibaby and the CAA know, the 145 people on that last flight could have paid £4 each, leading to a whopping great loss...

I would bet that baby's logic was very simply that they could make more money using their fleet elsewhere. Simple as that.

TA

RoyalWelsh

24th Jul 2011, 11:07

I completely agree TA, i think they are moving the 2 based aircraft to Belfast City so that a new hub can be opened there. They will have to gain the trust of the irish passengers now ! Indeed, with regard to yield, MYT made many mistakes with that by offering silly prices for the last few remaining seats, which then damaged profits, so yes.

RW

EIN378

24th Jul 2011, 11:33

Well technically Air France do not own KLM. They both merged in 2004 and formed the Air France-KLM Group. The group owns the Air France Group and the KLM Group. KLM Cityhopper is 100% subsidiary of the KLM Group.

Air France do offer flights from Cardiff now - a code-share with the daily FlyBe service to GLA-CWL-CDG (AF6532/3), however the timing of the once daily flight isn't great when connecting with other AF services from CDG.

Also Air France have operated from Cardiff in the past - they did have a service to CDG, operated for Saab 340s, back (I think) in 1990.

Phileas Fogg

24th Jul 2011, 12:20

Just the one daily flight with Air France?

Pssst:

FOGG/P.MR

AF8348 CWL/AMS 1650/1905
AF2241 AMS/CDG 2045/2200
AF256 CDG/SIN 2330/1805+1

KL804 MNL/AMS 1035/1805
KL1069 AMS/CWL 2030/2050

Total Fare: GBP 667.50

Phileas Fogg

24th Jul 2011, 14:41

RoyalWelsh,

After my most recent trip to Asia, a day or so after, I popped in to my local Chinese (Cantonese) Take-Away, I've been a client of theirs for some 20+ years so we're really good friends, we have a good banter.

Noticing that I had been away and I was somewhat tanned they enquired whereas I joked I had been to their part of the world, indeed my previous, to that, trip I had actually been in their homeland of Hong Kong having flown to/from HKG with Swiss from BHX (BHX was my local airport at that time), and that I had got back a day or so previously.

They questioned if I had flown from/to LHR to which I told them I had flown from/to CWL which was 5 minutes around the corner from where we were standing. They questioned that one couldn't fly to/from Asia from CWL, I replied of course you can and explained regarding KLM etc.

Until that conversation they had believed they, and their family and friends in HKG, needed to travel with BA, CX, VS etc. via LHR, I mean they're 5 minutes from CWL and they'd be travelling to/from LHR to travel to/from HKG!

My memories fade as to how the CWL/AMS service commenced but I recall it may have been with an F27 aircraft and the route was combined with BRS ..... and all these years later it is 3 F70's per day and nothing to do with BRS.

By comparison BHX/AMS started with Birmingham Executive J31's and/or G1's and/or Netherlines J31's and then SF340's, KLM only took an interest in the BHX route after buying out Netherlines. These days, on a typical day, KLM operate in/out of BHX a F70, an E190, 2 x B737-700's and a B737-800!

Now I have made my friends at the Chinese take-away that they and their family can travel to/from their homeland from the airport around the corner I have confidence that they will make use of the route at a time in the future.

Now I don't need to join any 'Wales Air Reggie Spotters Network' backslapping community to make people aware of a product readily available on their doorstep and such people that do seem to only want more and more partially full aircraft flying in and out rather than promoting the product(s) that already exist!

People that run Chinese restaurants, take-aways are, invariably, all from Hong Kong, how many 'Chinese' eating establishments are there within the CWL catchment area, rather than backslapping and blowing smoke up backsides how about mailshotting every 'Chinese' establishment making them aware of the product, Indian restaurants of KLM CWL/India, any Thai eating establishments CWL/BKK, and so on, and whilst CWL shall never be a BHX it might get larger than F70's one day and alert other operators that perhaps, just perhaps, there is business to be had at CWL!

And this scenario is just an example!

RoyalWelsh

24th Jul 2011, 18:04

PF

I totally, 100% agree with every single word and character that you have just posted ! TRUE, CWL needs to market their routes better so that everyone truly does know what routes are available to them, along with the connections available in AMS and CDG. It can save them a lot of time and money to fly to these destinations to catch connections, instead of traveling around 200 miles or so to LHR ?
Just randomly mailing indians and chinese people sounds a great idea ! Although you could just create a website/blog etc, that just details the routes available to them, and the 700+ connections at both AMS and CDG.

RW

Phileas Fogg

24th Jul 2011, 18:19

RW,

Such people will only find a website or blog if they happen to stumble across it and often by accident.

What do restaurant personnel do, literally, every moment they are at work?

They talk to people, they take orders, they make conversation, it's called 'networking', provide them with the ammunition and they'll do the firing, indeed send them promotional material to display on their walls etc!

RoyalWelsh

24th Jul 2011, 18:47

I will have to put up some promotional material in work !
Seriously though, I do not think that the airport markets its routes very well, what exactly are the management doing there, i mean there is no route or airline news, hardly any marketing outside of the CWL website. They must just wander around the terminal and apron all day wondering where all the aircraft and passengers have gone !

Phileas Fogg

24th Jul 2011, 19:10

RW,

Who is responsible for marketing a KLM product, who has most to gain from that KLM product?

KLM or the airport?

There is marketing outside of the airport website, KLM have a website, BMIBaby, Helvetic also, there is BMIBaby graffiti splattered all over the X91 buses etc.

Trouble is, perhaps, that those buses only operate around the Cardiff and airport areas ... a little alike BHX, one is deafened by BMIBaby jingles on the monorail between station and airport ... by that late stage every single passenger has already selected their airline and purchased their ticket(s)!!!

RoyalWelsh

24th Jul 2011, 19:13

Once again I totally agree, it is just aimed at the Cardiff Area. In Merthyr Tydfil, the buses contain advertisements for NTS Automaster, Stagecoach and many other things. In Swansea and newport, football is advertised etc, NO AIRPORT OR ROUTE ADVERTISING aimed directly at the market who use the airport (Apart from Cardiff itself, where many choose the airport anyway for proximity)

Phileas Fogg

24th Jul 2011, 19:48

And the only Manx2 publicity, aside from bad publicity here on pPrune, of the Angelsey route that I've seen was on the side of the Manx2 van parked in Tesco's car park the other day. :)

WAG are throwing money by the bucket load at that operation yet aren't promoting it in any attempt to reduce their (our) subsidy of it.

TwinAisle

25th Jul 2011, 08:57

I think a little consideration of the airline point of view would be in order here.

Why do the airlines advertise so little? Is it because they are lazy/incompetent/thinking of pulling out anyway? Or is it that they get enough load and revenue according to their revenue targets from the marketing that they actually do carry out, and so cannot justify further expenditure for potentially little gain?

Bulk advertising costs tend to increase with the square of the radius covered - and so to get just a few more seats filled may cost them a lot of money. Pointless.

I would also remind folks that the airport doesn't fly anywhere - it's a pile of bricks. It is there as a facilitator for people who do fly, and I cannot quite see for the life of me why the airport should advertise for the carriers there. What will happen on, say, the Belfast route, when both flybe and bmibaby operate it? How does the airport decide which one to push - and it will have to, since having an advert that says 'fly Cardiff to Belfast' is pretty hopeless unless it gives the punter a way of booking. I can imagine that flybe would get the hump if the bmibaby service were featured, and vice versa...

As a cautionary note btw - most airlines defend their brands and service marks fiercely, so to all those planning to unofficially 'help' them - be careful. You might find them less than appreciative.

TA

Phileas Fogg

25th Jul 2011, 09:04

TA,

I totally agree and I made the point a few posts ago of who's responsibility it might be to advertise a product.

However ... in the case of the Manx2 Angelsey route, and take a guesstimate at the operating costs of a Do228, well we (the taxpayers) have, effectively, purchased every seat for £65 (ish) per seat and for the next 4 years.

Who needs to advertise? ... Certainly not Manx2, they're laughing all the way to the bank!!!

JSCL

25th Jul 2011, 09:08

So really PF, you should be able to fly CWL to Angelsey for FREE if you are a resident.

TwinAisle

25th Jul 2011, 09:08

You did indeed PF, my apologies I missed that!

£65 a seat - if only.

In the first year of operation, a subsidy of £800,000 was paid to the then operator. Additionally, a further £390,000 had to be paid to Anglesey Airport. So now we have £1.2m in public money for the first year.

Well, that was the plan....

In fact, the airport needed some £1.5m for development work, and an ongoing £400k pa in revenue support. So a first year total of £1.19m has morphed into a first year total of £2.7m – an overrun of 127%. (It is fair to ascribe the airport costs to this route since no-one else goes there!)

Against that, the WAG's own report notes that the route generated 1,879 new trips (so about 940 returns), of which just 23.81% were for business use (the rest were VFR, other leisure, shopping, public sector). So, for £2.7m pounds, we got 224 business return trips. Call it £12,055 a trip. This is NOT the right way to encourage business to Wales!

Additionally, again from the WAG's own report, 'one business is considering setting up an office in N Wales as a result of the service'. Give me £2.7m and I'll open more than one office in N Wales!

Counting ALL the new passengers (that is, passengers who travelled because of the airlink, and who would not have taken the train or driven) who took the route in the first year, the subsidy amounts to £1,436.92 PER HEAD ONE WAY.

Yeesh! Alternatively, given the 14,133 passenger trips in the first year, this works out as a public subsidy of £191 per head, per one way trip.

(Taken from some of my research)

TA

RoyalWelsh

25th Jul 2011, 09:08

Manx2 are certainly laughing and after the 4 years of subsidy I would expect them to pull the route to be honest

JSCL

25th Jul 2011, 09:17

@RoyalWelsh

Congrats for stating the obvious. It's my bet that this is Manx2's way of subsidising costs on it's other routes and bases. So they won't be laughing in a few years when they have to hike prices all over.

TwinAisle

25th Jul 2011, 09:19

A FALSE sense of security? How pray tell? They are as safe as a house under the PSO - all they have to do is plan for what happens when common sense invades the brains of the Welsh Government.

Not holding my breath on that one!

TA

RoyalWelsh

25th Jul 2011, 09:21

Yes it is a false sense as because when the government subsidy stops the route will CERTAINLY no longer be viable.

TwinAisle

25th Jul 2011, 09:22

And you honestly think that Manx2 don't know that already?

What they do know is that they are as safe as a house for the next n years....

TA

JSCL

25th Jul 2011, 09:22

@RoyalWelsh

You are clearly one of those "Save the Cardiff Airport" kind of persons.

Phileas Fogg

25th Jul 2011, 09:34

More like 'TisPissingItDownAgain Airlines' :)

JSCL

25th Jul 2011, 09:36

Now now Phileas, let's not ruin the moment for these aspiring future Branson's and Stelios' :)

EasyWelsh - that's most of the women in Cardiff right!? Couldn't resist.

TwinAisle

25th Jul 2011, 09:43

Cardiff's only real hope in the immediate future is a well funded start up - since right now, there are no serious candidates from existing airlines, despite the pleadings of the FlyCardiff group.

And right now, the economic climate is beyond awful for any sort of start up.

TA

RoyalWelsh

25th Jul 2011, 09:44

Is the Farnair service here to stay ?

JSCL

25th Jul 2011, 09:46

Yes, for now, UPS keep it busy for Welsh deliveries.

RoyalWelsh

25th Jul 2011, 09:48

At least that is good news then. PAX with no growth , but cargo is now growing then

JSCL

25th Jul 2011, 09:52

Who said it was growing? It's stayed pretty much the same, if not a slight drop.

TwinAisle

25th Jul 2011, 09:57

Check the FTKs. Numbers don't lie...

TA

Phileas Fogg

25th Jul 2011, 10:46

Oh, by the way Ben,

Anytime I like I can register a domain, including 12 months web hosting and 10 email addresses, for 70p.

You spent £52.00 .... What do you reckon the chances are of anyone forking out umpteens of millions on anything you say? :)

JSCL

25th Jul 2011, 11:02

70p? I pay £180/year for that stuff! Unlimited email addresses too! :)

mathers_wales_uk

25th Jul 2011, 11:42

It all depends on how Cardiff Airport records their figures if it is based on outbound or inbound.

The UPS service operated by Farnair sends freight outbound only
The Royal Mail service operated by Atlantic Airlines with inbound mail only

But certainly overall the movement of freight/mail would have increased in 2011 compared to 2010 in general.

caaardiff

25th Jul 2011, 11:50

I didnt get the yield information, but I can tell you that my friend was aboard a TCX flight coming back from AYT a week or two ago, and he said that the plane was half empty. With such a low load factor I think it would be impossible to get a tidy yield from that !
Also, it is all over news articles that Thomas Cook Airlines are restructuring and re-organizing their Uk operations.

TCX at different times during the year use the aircraft in Glasgow during the Scottish Peak holidays.
The past few weeks the aircraft positioned to GLA, operated the outbound flight then came direct back to CWL with pax on board, and vice versa later on - operated out of with CWL pax then back to GLA with pax and pos back to CWL. This may have something to do with the low load factor on your flight, as it may be only bringing a weeks worth of pax back once it started back up again.

Discussed on this forum, post 156
And here..
http://www.pprune.org/airlines-airports-routes/458339-ghost-flights.html

Just because it was half full, doesn't automatically mean the aircraft is not making money. Sending the aircraft to GLA must make TCX a packet during the school holidays, and its not just CWL's aircraft that is used and flying back to the UK "half empty" at some point.
I once started off on here as fairly new to the industry and eager to learn. I sat back, watched the educated replies of some posters and took note. I'm hardly an aviation expert, but some people may need to do the same, as its constantly the same over ambitious and potentially damaging rumours and "assumptions" that keep cropping up.

GROUNDHOG

25th Jul 2011, 13:43

Listen wannabees tell you what why not arrange for a few people who have been there and done it to come over and give you a lecture and face to face meet to discuss the truth about how business plans are written, finance encouraged then airlines started, marketing, etc etc

It would be better to pay some of us oldies for a few hours than keep spending your time and money chasing shadows and dreams.

And when you are told things from those that have been in the Industry for decades for Gods sake LISTEN TO WHAT YOU ARE BEING TOLD AND DON'T SHOUT IT DOWN BECAUSE YOU DON'T WANT TO HEAR IT.

I really am trying to be helpful............

USE THE RUDDERS

25th Jul 2011, 20:48

I will be flying out of Cardiff on Sat night with TCX so will share my experience at a later date.

As a Bristolian who has lived in Cardiff for the past 6 years I find the banter rather amusing and have used both airports in the last 8 years.

No susprises that whilst I've seen vast growth in Bristol in this period and having operated out of there Cardiff airport has gone the other way.
Two years ago flew out on a family summer holiday and the place was a ghost town and what I gather since then it hasn't improved.

JSCL

27th Jul 2011, 13:25

Fares mean nothing when there's nobody to pay them, however.

JSCL

27th Jul 2011, 13:38

Look at Newquay, Ryanair moved in, the Market remained stale. Cardiff is no different, someone in the Bristol thread mentione that they would sooner keep to BRS than bother travelling over to CWL because with the cost of fuel to get there, still more effective to keep to BRS. You can't just create markets because of low fares.

bravoromeosierra

27th Jul 2011, 13:51

The Severn Bridge fare is also quite extortionate, isn't it not?

Phileas Fogg

27th Jul 2011, 13:54

And both the bridges are French :)

pwalhx

27th Jul 2011, 16:08

The air tax referred to is the APD and it is not coming to England it is already here. What is being discussed is the Welsh Assembly assuming control over it and the possibility they may reduce or remove it at Welsh airports I believe.

Phileas Fogg

27th Jul 2011, 16:28

FR no longer operate out of NQY because it's not the marketplace to be operating B737-800's.

It's not like FR to admit a mistake that they misjudged the marketplace, it's their way, their arrogance, to always pin the blame on anybody except themselves.

MerchantVenturer

27th Jul 2011, 17:56

But if there were ever airlines such as ryanair moving to CWL, the market would move with them ...

It might be tempting for an airline such as Ryanair to use CWL if its air passenger tax regime was far more favourable than neighbouring English airports, but to say the market would move with it is not necessarily the case. Part of the market probably would but how much?

Bristol, which by common consent, seems to be Cardiff's main rival has a larger core catchment and, importantly, a bigger local business base and more well-off leisure travellers with the means and will to travel.

If, say, Ryanair moved all its flight across the Severn to Cardiff it would need to be certain it could attract enough punters to give it at least as good a return as it gets at Bristol. Latest CAA stats (albeit from 2008) show that just under 13% of BRS's passengers begin or end their journey in South Wales.

Let's assume with reasonable confidence that Ryanair has a broadly similar proportion of 'Welsh' passengers out of Bristol. This means that around 87% of the passengers begin or end their journeys somewhere other than Wales - the CAA stats suggest that nearly 48% start/finish in Greater Bristol and 36% in the wider south west with smaller numbers from the Thames Valley, Home Counties and Midlands. Because of its smaller core catchment CWL would have to attract a much larger proportion of passengers (both percentage-wise and in real terms) from outside South Wales to maintain parity with the current Bristol set-up.

So it might not just be a more favourable tax regime that airlines would have to consider tempting though that may be. That said, the Bristol Airport management is clearly concerned.

JSCL

28th Jul 2011, 14:07

Based on next week... BRS and LGW clearly have limited seats and CWL has lots of capacity left if the deals are that much different!

JSCL

28th Jul 2011, 14:19

It's price wise because of desperation. They need to sell seats, so they lower the price.

LGW and BRS prices are likely due to over capacity ie more departures than CWL has anyway.

JSCL

28th Jul 2011, 14:22

Because they know all too well, it'll sell in advance at that price. It'll adjust if it doesn't sell. Clearly people are prepared to pay to fly out of BRS and £400 means nothing to flying out of CWL.

It seems clear that the only way can attract advance bookings in the region is tempt people to CWL in advance because they know BRS is likely to sell. They are basically prostitituting CWL.

Phileas Fogg

28th Jul 2011, 14:27

Interesting that RoyalWelsh is posting the same 'Aviation Wales' links as Benjimin was, Benjimin disappeared to be replaced by RoyalWelsh.

Benjimin was exposed for deception, RoyalWelsh appears overnight having suddenly put on 7 years in age ... Benjimin's deception continues!

One claimed to be 17, the other 24, yet they both live in the small location of Nelson, Nr. Caerphilly.

This thread has become Benjimin's play pen.

USE THE RUDDERS

28th Jul 2011, 20:52

I've been reading these Cardiff posts now for a number of years now and feel the need to comment!

There is no way the likes of FR are going to up sticks and leave a successful airport like BRS with a larger catchment area, higher GDP per head of population and relocate to a struggilng airport like Cardiff.

If the likes of BMI Baby are pulling out and Flybe not planning any immediate expansion why would FR want to fill the void when they have already left once?
Even the charters are cutting back on routes?

I can't see how air tax in England can be seen as Cardiff's saviour. Correct me if I'm wrong I didn't think the WAG had taxition powers, do these still belong in Westminster?
What will stop WAG bring in it's own eco tax?

Unfortunately Cardiff in still stuck in a 1970's/80's timewarp and has been eclipsed by more succesful regional airports.

I first flew from there in the early 90's and compared to BRS then it was cutting edge.

No amount of silly school projects and fantasy airlines with fictitous routes is going to deny the fact that the airport is in a major rutt.
Previous talk of EK,AA and DAL looking at the place are frankly ludicrous and embarrassing.

I would be the first to admit if I'm proved wrong but in all seriousness the future is looking bleak.

Please guys can we live in the real world.

PPRuNe Pop

28th Jul 2011, 20:54

I am not sure what is going on here. But experience tells me that it is not good. There is no debate just assumptions, guesswork and nothing else.

Unless there is stuff to discuss get off the subject.

AND............if there is a Walter Mitty in our midst he will be banned.

USE THE RUDDERS

28th Jul 2011, 21:01

Well said PPruNe Pop :D

Phileas Fogg

28th Jul 2011, 21:07

Ditto ... :ok:

Danny_R

28th Jul 2011, 21:43

From what I have been hearing, CWL haven't been offering the airlines they have been speaking with a good enough incentive to start up ops, they have only offered small reductions in fees which has meant the likes of Jet2 and Monarch have walked away.

Phileas Fogg

28th Jul 2011, 21:55

TSR2

28th Jul 2011, 22:07

I get the impression that some posters think the removal of the APD will be the saviour of Cardiff Airport or at least that the APD is mainly responsible for the heavy decline in passenger numbers in recent years.

The following figures show a comparison between Cardiff and Bristol (in thousands) over the last decade. The Cardiff figures peaked in 2007 whilst Bristol peaked in 2008.

Cardiff
2000 - 1498
2007 - 2094 (+39.8%)
2010 - 1398 (-33.2%)
2000 - 2010 (-6.7%)

Bristol
2000 - 2124
2008 - 6229 (193.3%)
2010 - 5723 (-8.1%)
2000 - 2010 (+169.4%)

Interestingly, Bristol had 41.78% more pax than Cardiff in 2000 but by the end of the decade the difference had increased dramatically to 309.4%.
Also Cardiff had 6.7% fewer pax at the end of the decade that at the begining whilst Bristol had 169.4% more pax during the same period.

I believe the APD has sod-all to do with the current state of Cardiff Airport as it seems obvious that Cardiff has failed to achieve and/or maintain the growth in traffic compared to its nearest competitor over a substantial period of time.

So what are the real reasons for this ? Is it a case of the pax numbers are simply not there, or the airport management being closely related to Rip Van Winkel, or is there some other logical explanation?

Danny_R

28th Jul 2011, 22:51

Danny,

So if you own a corner shop, with your wife and family to support, with a supermarket only a limited distance away, are you going to sell your goods at such levels, just to make your shop look busy, whereas you can't afford to support yourself and your family, or are you likely to explain that you are offering reasonable prices and if 'you' don't like it them please shop elsewhere?

Point being PF, airlines now expect the lowest possible costs to use an airport, just look to Ryanair's business model to see that, if CWL are not prepared to lower their costs while other airports are, it doesn't take a genius to see why CWL isnt attracting new airline customers.

Airports can make revenue from other sources bar aircraft, such as car parking etc, however without the added passengers that the airlines bring that won't happen.

Those in this thread wondering why no other airlines have come in, it looks like the fees could be a factor.

Phileas Fogg

28th Jul 2011, 23:04

Danny,

KLM expect the lowest operating costs from CWL?

MOL walks away from any airport that dares to introduce a tax, a tax that puts money back in to UK investment, rather than maximise profits in to his (non UK) foreign pockets?

Danny .... I'm from the old school, I'm not 'Mr Reggie Spotter', I have my own business, I know how to pull in the purse strings to successfully compete with the opposition, but expect me to start operating at a loss, just to keep the 'Reggie Spotters' happy, then you'll get a two word answer!

Danny .. Ask yourself this ... Would PLH airport be closing if it were in Wales with WAG to bail it out no matter how much money it were losing?

Danny_R

28th Jul 2011, 23:41

PF, I'm not debating the pros and cons of the airport reducing costs to attract airlines and thus more passengers as that would take all day and you would never get a definite answer, as obviously there are many different business strategies you can employ. You obviously feel that CWL should charge the full fees to airlines to meet their costs, however I am also looking at the fact there are other strategies to meet those costs, such as having lower initial costs to the airlines but make up lost revenue from increased passenger spend within the Terminal etc.

My point however is that it looks likely that the airlines that were interested in setting up a base at CWL have walked away due to the costs.
Remember that KLM are not a loco and have a completely different cost base to that required by a loco. CWL are obviously trying to attract a loco carrier to pick up Baby's routes, however if CWL are not able to meet the costs required by the likes of Jet2, who have obviously come to agreements successfully with many other UK airports, it doesn't bode well for any growth in the near future.

GROUNDHOG

29th Jul 2011, 07:03

Like PF I am from the old school, I have been filling charters ex CWL since the 70's and was one of the two founders of Air Wales in 1999 ( its first flight was much later after RGDT backed the idea) and I believe the following.

No LoCo is going to be interested in setting up a base at CWL or NQY simply because the traffic is not there, what the airport charges is important but not vital. This does not mean new routes may not appear but equally some will disappear. If the terminal is a shed it doesn't matter to the airline as long as the route is profitable.

The business is very cyclical though and all that may change in the fullness of time, perhaps for the better and perhaps like PLH for the worse.

There is still though business for a small Do228 type operation and had AW stuck to that they may still be around, low cost to the airline not the passenger. I would rather have 3 passengers paying £300, than 15 paying £50!

To help rebuild CWL, NQY etc now needs innovation not dreams of big jets, it can be done, it need not cost a fortune and is possible. These are marginal airports and need smaller planes to serve it.

Finally please stop comparing CWL to BRS, it isn't BRS, it is a different catchment area, I have driven from Cornwall and Devon to catch a flight from BRS but if the second choice was CWL I would probably rather drive to LGW or LHR instead.

That is my thought anyway but in my dreams I would still like to see a major new airport next to the M5 and the railway at about Wellington in Somerset with easy access to the entire area and routes Worldwide.... dream on!

bycrewlgw

29th Jul 2011, 09:23

Just to add my tuppence to the mix ( and I am welsh so not welsh bashing).

Wales unfortunately like many other areas of the UK has been hit very hard by the recession. Many of the large industries have up sticks and moved abroad leaving thousands out of work. With wages much lower than some parts of the UK, many people cannot afford to fly.

I believe that CWL will only prosper and expand when the economy recovers. The WAG can help this, not by throwing money at routes and spending on terminal development, but by doing all it can to attract high tech industry to the area with high paid jobs and to retain graduates and workers in the area so they don't have to move to London or bigger UK cities for work. The more disposable income a person has the more they spend and therefore are more likely to travel more.

I'm not an expert in this field and know that I will get shot down from the experts but just wanted to put forward my thoughts :-)

GROUNDHOG

29th Jul 2011, 09:40

bycrewlgw - No shots from me you are quite right!

CheekyVisual

29th Jul 2011, 15:54

Nice to see a bit of common sense being spoken on the CWL thread ! I remember being taken to CWL as a young lad in the early 80s and there being not a single departure on the board for that day ! (The doughnut was nice though). I also remember operating from CWL in the late 90s early noughties when a summer saturday almost looked like a proper airport. CWL seems to have extreme cycles of use going back to the 60s feast or famine. As Bill Clinton rightly said "it's the economy stupid" and it is ! When the good times roll again (hopefully) the departure boards will start to fill up.

I understand the frustrations of some of those trying to turn things round. Not all the positive thinkers on here are "spotters" or "school boys" some people are campaigning because their jobs are genuinely at risk if the downward spiral continues. The airport owners have decided, for whatever reason, they can not give access away. But even if they did offer it for nothing would someone like Jet 2 come anyway in the current climate ? It is a good get out for them to say "too expensive" instead of "too poor". They may well want to come in a couple of years time why offend your future customers.

As for APD there are a few issues that probably make it meaningless. The WAG don't yet have control of it and may not ever. Secondly, even if they did, it is the assumptiuon being made on these forums is that they would abolish it. BIG BIG assumption. At best they may cut a couple of quid, not enough to cause a big queue of english people at the severn bridge tolls and at worst they may even raise it ! Remember the WAG, BBC Wales and the Welsh Enviromentalists , whatever the cover story, are actually all run by the same 50 people all living in Pontcanna and deciding they know best. Can't see the sandle wearers of the Peoples Liberation Party (WAG / BBC Wales / WLS) standing for a cut in any enviromental related tax.

(Before I get a racist bullet I am Welsh and I have lived and worked amongst the Pontcanna elite !)

CelticRambler

29th Jul 2011, 18:45

I believe that CWL will only prosper and expand when the economy recovers. The WAG can help this, not by throwing money at routes and spending on terminal development, but by doing all it can to attract high tech industry to the area with high paid jobs and to retain graduates and workers in the area so they don't have to move to London or bigger UK cities for work. The more disposable income a person has the more they spend and therefore are more likely to travel more.

Spot on. :ok: One thing that stands out in the calls to "Save Cardiff Airport" campaign is a complete lack of confidence in the whole area of South Wales. All the cries are for bargain-priced tickets out of the region. What about attracting people in? Sure, the global economy is shot to bits, but there are still plenty of investors looking for a good place to bury their money, and they will consider doing that in Cardiff/South Wales if the current residents use whatever resources they have at their disposal to make the place a bit more dynamic and let the rest of us know!

The airport, for its part, could do worse than leaving Bristol to become the Stansted of the West and create its own identity, reinventing what it means to be a regional airport (sorry, a small national airport).

heading 125

30th Jul 2011, 18:24

Cardiff customers don't need bargain price tickets what they do need are tickets same price or slightly lower than Bristol. Time and time again I try and fly out of Cardiff- Same hotel, nearly same time flight, same airline and Bristol is £100 per person cheaper. Many of my friends say "going out of Bristol this time, £400 cheaper than Cardiff same hotel , be mad not to". I even paid the extra fair for my son to fly out of Cardiff rather than go all the way to Bristol.

I have a lot of contact with the flying public out of Cardiff and usually ask about holidays and the answer is that they really want to travel form Cardiff, but, it used to be because of the destinations now it is due to price as well.

If the cost can down to Bristol's prices then I am sure Cardiff would see an increase in Pax. Thats on a package.

Low cost needs a cheap operator to take on Easyjet and Ryanair at Bristol, BMIbaby were just too expensive - a difficult task I know Jet2 and Monach still would not be cheap enough.

Until these issues are tackled then the numbers will carry on dwindling.

Phileas Fogg

30th Jul 2011, 18:49

heading 125,

As a rule of thumb the smaller the aircraft then the more expensive, per seat, it is to operate thus, as an example, a B737-800 operator can offer cheaper fares than a B737-300/A319 operator who can offer cheaper fares than a B737-500 operator and so on but only if seat sales attain expected targets.

However, as has been demostrated, CWL does not have sufficient enough of a catchment area to fill LoCo B737-800's, indeed B737-500's, if one wishes to travel from CWL then one needs to appreciate that CWL has a lesser catchment area than, let us say, BRS who's catchment area spreads from mid point to BHX, mid point to LHR, mid point to SOU, and all the way down to Lands End.

If any person wants 'bucket shop' fares them move to a bucket shop :)

GROUNDHOG

30th Jul 2011, 19:25

That's Cardiff's problem then, got it now, there's a hole in my bucket.....

TwinAisle

31st Jul 2011, 20:08

Have to say this, but too many on here, and another place that I shan't name, are looking at this from the wrong end.

From an airport point of view, a case must be built why a certain route will prosper, and why that route will prosper more than an existing route of the airline, after all costs of setting the route up are amortised.

BUT from an airline standpoint?

Consider an airline, let's call them Prop2 for the sake of argument. They don't serve Cardiff, but run five 737s out of Grantchester, Oldcastle and Glasburgh, serving some 30 routes. They know, in absolute detail, the financials of these routes, and are confident that given they can only operate 30 routes with their existing fleet, they have chosen the optimum 30 routes. Why on earth would they drop one of their 30 best routes, and take a punt on a new base and a new route out of Cardiff?

Answer - they won't.

Why on earth would they risk the significant capital investment in a sixth aircraft, plus the associated crew, maintenance and other costs, to build capacity, so that they can take a punt on Cardiff?

Answer - they won't. Certainly not in the current economic climate.

All the whining in the world won't alter the facts. Right now, without a start up with very deep pockets, or a significant shift in the economic prospects of the Cardiff catchment, or a major change to pricing, Cardiff is going to be bumping along the bottom for the foreseeable.

But. Point 3 would be taken care of with a decent move on APD.... And the WG DO have the power to change the rate.... They can't abolish, but they can change the rate, even to zero. Compare factum, prescription charges.... And my alter ego has had some fun meetings this week with the people who move the levers on this one, not the opposition, but the people with the power.

Let me run an idea past you here. APD for a family of four leaving from BRS to say Orlando, is £300. If I were the flight or tour operator, and the CWL rate suddenly becomes zero, I would be writing to all my punters, apologising profusely, telling them that for operational reasons the flight now leaves from CWL, and here's £100 compensation.... Nice eh? :ok:

Watch this space, and listen to facts, not wild mad speculation.... And don't assume that the WG are a load of aviation hating lefties. They aren't.

TA

Facelookbovvered

1st Aug 2011, 07:35

The WAG to the best of my knowledge do not have devolved powers over APD, what has killed CWL is the current fuel price and lack of wealth in the catchment area, that not to say there isn't money around, just not enough people with it to make a year round jet operation viable.

BRS enjoys a critical mass in terms of airlines and destinations served and of course a far larger catchment area. Scrapping APD would make little change to CWL fate, the days of 9.99 tickets to EDI are over. Whilst scrapping APD on say long haul route where the planned ramp up of charges is greatest may tempt a few fringe airline, the lack of a Cat3 ILS would deter route planners from a 5.30am arrival. With the best will in the world i can't see it happening.

TwinAisle

1st Aug 2011, 07:37

They do, you know....

Watch, wait and see.

TA

MerchantVenturer

1st Aug 2011, 13:04

Hello TwinAisle,

An intriguing post! You almost seem to be hinting that something might be imminent.

However, I am puzzled by your assertion that the WAG already has some powers over air passenger duty.

This certainly hasn't been made clear by the Assembly so far as I can discover.

You will know that the Holtham Commission, established by the previous First Minister, in its final report published last year made many recommendations about many matters including the suggestion that apd should be devolved to Wales 'if deemed useful'.

In recent months the present First Minister has mentioned apd (and other taxes) as something that might usefully be devolved to Wales and last month David Cameron, in an address ot the Assembly, confirmed the UK's government's intention to set up a commission similar to the Calman Commission on Scottish devolved affairs.

The Calman Commission recommended in 2009 that apd powers should be devolved to the Scottish Parliament, though that has not yet occurred.

Recently an all-party group of MPs on the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee recommended that apd should be abolished in Northern Ireland, something that has been brought into recent focus by the threats of Continental to withdraw their BFS-EWR service with Dublin just down the road benefiting from a new, far less onerous air tax regime.

So I am perplexed when, if Scotland and Northern Ireland don't have apd devolved powers and, from all I've read, neither does Wales, how is it possible for the Assembly to vary the apd rates at the moment?

If the WAG does already have the power to vary rates why haven't they done so in the past?

Incidentally, in your example getting £100 back when £300 has been spent on apd that then wouldn't have to be paid by the airline to government might be nice for the operator but certainly isn't for the poor old punter.

xtypeman

1st Aug 2011, 16:18

Facelook with ref the lack of Cat 3 ILS this is wheighted against the weather stats for CWL. Having been in OPS for a couple of airlines based at CWL operating at CAT 1 level can count on my hands and feet the number of diverts away from Rhoose compared with the diverts I've seen from not only the runway on the hill but also from Heathrow and Gatwick.

flyerboy

1st Aug 2011, 17:07

If you are going to draw a comparison between APD and prescription charges then surely anyone who does not have a Welsh postal address will have to carry on paying

TwinAisle

1st Aug 2011, 20:39

Watch, wait, and see.

Flyerboy, a slightly spurious argument with shades of reductio ad absurdam, perhaps?

TA

chrisy08

2nd Aug 2011, 17:08

Interested in watching, waiting and seeing!!! What's going on that we don't know about at Cardiff...?

JSCL

2nd Aug 2011, 17:23

Come fly with me, let's fly let's fly away. If you could use some exotic routes, there's a baaaa in far Cardiff!

chrisy08

2nd Aug 2011, 17:52

OK I have no idea what your talking about :hmm:

flyerboy

2nd Aug 2011, 18:42

TA
ut si!

Farfield monitor

5th Aug 2011, 13:01

Looks like Bristol may be in for a busy spell just heard CWL ATC evacuating due to a fire alarm activation :hmm:.

heading 125

15th Aug 2011, 14:23

Big announcement next week is the lastest rumour around the airport. Any more information anyone.

mathers_wales_uk

15th Aug 2011, 15:00

I first heard of this rumour over two weeks ago however the details in which I heard seemed unrealistic and unbelievable.

However over the last week the rumour does seem to be gathering pace with a lot of people asking me questions on if it is true or not. However nothing has been mentioned or leaked in the press.

Some say a major announcement is to be made today, next week and others have said it's within the next month.

I believe this rumour has begun by someone being spotted in the airport.

After numerous Ryanair rumours and less than twelve months ago one about the Airport being sold to a German company and Jet2/monarch walking out midway through a meeting with Cardiff Airport, is this just another case of someone putting two and two together and getting six.