CARDIFF - 2

[Oldtimer1]

This all came from something said at the Airport Consultative Committee last night, that good news from the airport was imminent.

This could be anything. I highly doubt its a new based airline, probabaly just one additonal route from flybe, or, Helvetic releasing their summer schedule where they would stay at Cardiff. I wouldnt want to blow it out of all proportions.

[Wycombe]

Vueling to launch flights to ALC and PMI from June, 3 weekly on each.

[planenut321]

Flights will operate in a W pattern from PMI.

Tues and Thurs
PMI 14:05 - 15:20 CWL
CWL 15:50 - 19:10 ALC
ALC 19:40 - 21:00 CWL
CWL 21:30 - 00:45 PMI

Sunday
PMI 07:00 - 08:15 CWL
CWL 08:45 - 12:05 ALC
ALC 12:35 - 13:55 CWL
CWL 14:25 - 17:40 PMI

Barcelona will be (after all of the day changes in June):

Tuesday
BCN 13:30 - 14:35 CWL
CWL 15:10 - 18:10 BCN

Thurs/Fri (changes days from July 19)
BCN 09:00 - 10:05 CWL
CWL 10:35 0 13:35 BCN

Sunday
BCN 09:45 - 10:50 CWL
CWL 11:25 - 14:25 BCN


So Tuesdays and Thursdays (for half of June and July) and Sundays we will have 6 rotations a day from VY!
Also interesting to see that in a news article today VY predict that CWL-BCN will make LFs of 80% with a 50/50 slpit of Spanish and Welsh pax.

[mart901]

Good for Cardiff, nice to see something other than blue or orange launching routes

[mathers_wales_uk]

One other interesting thing with Vueling is that they are prepared to work with the travel trade which is something very rare with lo-cost airlines.

Also it is nice to see that the fares are in fact the same level if not cheaper than what can be found by the Orange and Blue fin aircraft at Bristol.

A was also informed by somone on another website that it only costs them £17 for a weeks parking at Cardiff Airport using on site parking in June. Cardiff Airport have adopted an aggressive pricing policy for the NCP parking with prices from £1.99 all year round oer day.

Free parking deals are available for some airlines which include the Cosmos/Monarch flights to Florida and Balkan Holidays to Bulgaria.

We are hoping for good news also in regards to direct links to/from Cardiff City Centre to the airport.

[TwinAisle]

it is nice to see that the fares are in fact the same level if not cheaper than what can be found by the Orange and Blue fin aircraft at Bristol

This is not a sensible comparison right now - Vueling are selling lower down the revenue curve since they started selling much later. Let's see how it looks later on when things have settled down. From experience, I will wager that Vueling will start to look expensive compared with FR and U2....

TA

[j636]

This is not a sensible comparison right now - Vueling are selling lower down the revenue curve since they started selling much later. Let's see how it looks later on when things have settled down. From experience, I will wager that Vueling will start to look expensive compared with FR and U2....


BRS-ALC only on sale with FR a few weeks and a reducded schedule that last summer.

[TwinAisle]

And FR have a very, very much better known and more extensive market presence at BRS than VY at CWL, so will sell much, much more quickly on an equivalent route.

In any case, forget ALC, think Barcelona....

Low fares in this market means lower sales, especially against FR.

TA

[CabinCrewe]

FR and EZY will walk all over them. Will be interesting to review this in a years time

[mart901]

I love how people on PPRUNE write things off before they start. Vueling is well known in Spain and will surely have the lions share of inbound pax. If its marketed right and as said previously they work with the travel trade they will suceed. As a Spanish crewed airline their labour costs are a lot lower than EZY, although Im sure FR can beat them on that one.

[EI-BUD]

As a Spanish crewed airline their labour costs are a lot lower than EZY, although Im sure FR can beat them on that one.


I wouldnt be so sure of this mart901, I know for Madrid the pay for pilots is far far superior to that of the UK.

Lets hope Vueling makes the break in the UK. The challenge for any airline is brand awareness, and I would suggest that a high proportion of passengers will originate in the UK, hence most locals to Cardiff will book with the companies that they know, ie Easyjet/Ryanair from Bristol. So Vueling will need to be clever in marketing the service around Cardiff!

EI-BUD

[Oldtimer1]

I wouldnt be so sure of this mart901, I know for Madrid the pay for pilots is far far superior to that of the UK.

Vueling is known for it very low pay and poor conditions. Starting salary is 850 Euros a month, a below poverty line payrate for a family in Spain. This is also below RYR and Easyjet. Their cabin crew are also poorly paid.
This has though been discussed many times before and is prehaps best left for another thread
Read this one as its a real eye opener.
http://www.pprune.org/terms-endearment/444503-article-vueling-pilots-living-like-gipsies.html
http://www.pprune.org/terms-endearment/471874-vueling-hiring-50-70-pilots.html

[macdo]

Vueling is like any other bottom scraping LoCo, they'll give these routes a go and if the load factors don't add up they'll pull them without a 2nd. thought. With poverty wages that would make Scrooge look generous and using an A319, it is possible that they will make a bob out if it when Baby couldn't. Whether they will have any pilots left to fly them in a years time, is another question. Personally, I hope employers like this get what they deserve.

WRT price, I compared a family price to Spain in July with Easy at BRS and found Vueling to be slight dearer after all extra costs applied.

[bycrewlgw]

Surely pay and contract conditions can be discussed under another section of this forum? Whether you like the airline or not is irrelevant. This is good news for cardiff.

[BombardierCR7]

The Vueling ALC and PMI appear to be no longer bookable.

[Cloud1]

IF they have pulled it (and I say if as I have not looked in to it) I wouldnt be surprised if its a result of Spanair's collapse. The main airlines down in Spain will be taking over or adding frequency on a number of routes and that means more aircraft may be required, other routes will get pulled to accomodate.

However CWL was only recently announced so may be its a computer blip.

[caaardiff]

Its still bookable. But for some reason ALC and PMI aren't on the list of "direct" flights, but shows direct when you select the flights.
This was a problem a few weeks back, which was rectified, but appears to be back again.
It was something to do with BCN starting in March and the others not starting until June time, so for the first few months ALC and PMI would be connections.

[fanrailuk]

Helvetic Summer 2012 Schedule – Cardiff to Zurich (via Bristol)
Effective: Sunday, 25 March until Friday, 26 October

Wednesday: CWL-BRS-ZRH, dep 13:45 arr 17:30
Friday: CWL-BRS-ZRH, dep 13:45 arr 17:30
Sunday: CWL-BRS-ZRH, dep 13:45 arr 17:30

Wednesday: ZRH-BRS-CWL, dep 11:20 arr 13:10
Friday: ZRH-BRS-CWL, dep 11:20 arr 13:10
Sunday: ZRH-BRS-CWL, dep 11:20 arr 13:10

Flights operated on Fokker 100
Viva! (Business Class) is available on all flights

[mathers_wales_uk]

I can confirm that this is correct and it is so good that Helvetic remains at Cardiff Airport as they offer a great quality service.

News article (http://walesairforum.wordpress.com/2012/02/02/helvetic-airways-releases-cardiff-to-zurich-schedule-for-summer-2012/)

[Welsh Bobby]

Just tried to book my annual Feb half term week in FUE from CWLwith TCX but not bookable!
can anyone confirm if it is operating next winter. Unbelievable if dropped completely when its twice weekly from mid Feb this winter!

[macdo]

Flight timetable - Cardiff Airport (http://www.tbicardiffairport.com/en/content/4/58/flight-timetable.html)

Wed and Sat, I'm on duty for one on the 29/2 so its def. working, probably our useless website, I'm afraid.

[GAXLN]

Macdo,

Re FUE: I don't think there's a 29th February in 2013. It may have gone for the W12-3 season if its not on sale.

[WALES-TAG-TOP]

TCX and 2 others diverting in due to snow at BHX

[Cazza_fly]

bmibaby WW5548 from Chambery Divert from East Midlands.

BHX, EMA, MAN still closed.

[ManofMan]

Man opened at 20.32

[macdo]

Oh FCS, I didn't spot that, we don't even know what the blo##dy summer schedule is yet, let alone Winter 2013!!!! That'll teach me to try and help.

[j636]

Air Malta will operate flights to Malta from 1 May on behalf of Thomson.

[caaardiff]

Air Malta have been operating for many summers out of CWL and various other regional airportss around the UK. Thomson are 1 of about 5 tour operators that use the weekly flight. Thomas Cook also have an allocation.

[USE THE RUDDERS]

Going to Malta in August and just checked the prices, Tue flights at twice the price of Ryan Air @ BRS and Air Malta @ LHR, must do better I'm afraid to be attractive.

[Cloud1]

Would it be fair to say the majority of people using the CWL-Malta would be leisure and tour packages therefore the number of 'scheduled' seats to purchase flight only are significantly lower compared to the FR route from BRS and Air Malta from LHR both scheduled? The prices will be different and probably not the best comparison

[CARNMANORLAD]

Anyone got info on the CWL-SSH Thomson flight from this morning? It was sqwaking 7700 and circling over Dover.

[BFS BHD]

A Thomson Airways plane has been forced to make an emergency landing at London Gatwick after a cabin pressure warning light was activated.

The passenger aircraft with 188 people onboard was heading to the popular resort of Sharm el Sheik in Egypt when the warning light suddenly came on moments after taking off from Cardiff International Airport.

The TOM532 flight immediately dropped altitude to 10,000ft and circled Dover before heading to Gatwick to land.

It's believed a technical fault may have caused the light to come on.


More info: Passenger plane makes emergency landing at London Gatwick after cabin pressure warning light is activated - Mirror Online (http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/passenger-plane-makes-emergency-landing-682981)

[Phileas Fogg]

Emergency landing my ass ..... It was a technical diversion!

[Jonnyf]

Just seen on Wikipedia that Wizz Air are starting Katowice and Warsaw-Modlin from June, Does anyone have information on this or is it just Rumours?

[airhumberside]

They won't be starting Warsaw Modlin in June for sure, operations don't move there until July

[j636]

Veuling have extended BCN until 29 October (offical end of summer schedule). Will operate Tuesday,Thursday and Saturdays from 18 Sep. Was due to end mid September according to Cardiff website.

[planenut321]

Sales must not be too bad for them to increase that along with extra rotations during Easter :ok:

[mathers_wales_uk]

Free airport shuttle under threat

Ground transport links from Cardiff Airport to the capital of Wales are set to decline as the free shuttle linking Cardiff Airport to the local railway station is under threat.

The current subsidy is due to run out in March and is partly funded by the Welsh Government & Vale of Glamorgan council. Although the council wish to continue to fund their part in the service the Welsh Government does not.

Read full article (http://walesairforum.wordpress.com/2012/02/24/free-airport-shuttle-under-threat-again/)

[mathers_wales_uk]

Fog causes flights to divert, delays & cancellations

Today has been a tough day as Cardiff Airport has been battling against fog. In total 9 inbound flights have had to divert and 7 outbound flights have been cancelled.

Read article here (http://walesairforum.wordpress.com/2012/02/24/fog-causes-delays-and-cancellations-at-cardiff-airport/)

[Phileas Fogg]

But how many passengers actually utilise the Rhoose rail station shuttle?

I'd suggest it is much more convenient to take the bus from/to Cardiff Central directly to/from the airport, historically National Express were codesharing with the X91 bus, the only downside is the infrequency of the services, perhaps any subsidy might be better invested in to the Cardiff Central/Airport bus services, increase in frequency of services, half size buses but twice as many of them, improved early morning/late evening services or whatever!

[caaardiff]

I agree, its obvious the passenger numbers at the moment cant sustain both services. Its more likely that the train service will continue without the bus link, as it will still serve Rhoose. Arriva and FGW should connect to bus services in Cardiff Central-CWL to avoid any confusion and stranded pax in Rhoose. The bus service from Cardiff-CWL is more likely to be cut if the rail link service continues.
Its best not to over compensate, and concentrate on the one good service as Phileas said.
CWL is going through a period of flights arriving and departing at certain times of the day, rather than evenly throughout the day. Some creative planning to fit the peak periods of the day would be perfect.
The X91 could pick up the rest of the slack. The X91 also goes via Rhoose, could this service not be diverted to meet the train? Passengers would need to pay to get to CWL from Rhoose, which will be cheaper than a taxi and also extra revenue for X91.

[heading 125]

I am in complete shock, I have just seen an advert for Vueling by Cardiff Airport in my local newspaper. I am going to have a lie down and hope when I wakeup it isn't for Bristol. Seriously though in the last two weeks I have heard advertisements on the radio for flights from Cardiff to Florida and TUI flights. Perhaps Cardiff have at long last realised that they need to fight to get the airport back on it feet and take its competitors head on. That together with the first Minister saying that Cardiff Airport needs to sort its self out maybe the jolt that is needed for the long road to recovery. :D

The only odds thing that I have seen is the intent of the Vale of Glamorgan to run the railway line into Cardiff Airport at a cost of 15 million. But perhaps it would be used for Freight and passengers.;)

Vueling are also opening new bases in Europe (Nantes etc) it certainly would change things for Cardiff if they resulted in flights. Bookings I hear are very promising.

[mathers_wales_uk]

Adverts for the new route can be found on the Wales Online homepage, several bus stops around Cardiff City Center, Stagecoach buses (Merthyr Tydfil, Pontypridd, Bristol bus station), Taxi cabs around Cardiff, Railway stations (Cardiff Central, Queen Street, Swansea, Newport, Bristol Parkway) to name a few.

It does look as if phase two of the advertising campaign is setting off.

Cardiff Airport sponsored a Travel Daily UK event named Thursty Thirsday. This event provided the opportunity for local travel trade, hoteliers etc to meet up and discuss with Vueling. This is the 2nd event of it's kind in Cardiff with the previous one hosting Aer Lingus, Air France, Helvetic, Flybe, etc.

Cardiff Airport local management are trying their hardest to attract new airlines.

[mathers_wales_uk]

French Rugby Fans arrived in their thousand yesterday through Cardiff Airport. The airport handled almost 30 extra flights yesterday (excluding business jet).

French rugby fans begin to arrive at Cardiff Airport - Read article (http://walesairforum.wordpress.com/2012/03/16/french-rugby-fans-begin-to-arrive-at-cardiff-airport/)

Today seen more arrivals however considerably smaller aircraft and up to 10 extra flights and some of which will depart this evening.

This is the calm before the storm as near 30 extra flights will take the french rugby fans back to France tomorrow.

Calm before the storm - Read article (http://walesairforum.wordpress.com/2012/03/17/the-calm-before-the-storm-for-as-more-french-rugby-fans-arrive-at-cardiff-airport/)

[macdo]

I'm sorry, 30 FLIGHTS = STORM????????????
They'll be in the hold all the way to Fl300 then. :-))))))))))

[mathers_wales_uk]

Macdo

30 extra charter flights may not mean much to you however take into consideration the loss of almost 1 million passengers in the last 4 years along with one of our quietest winters in many years.

This airlift is one of the busiests in a few years too and you fail to appreciate the hard work of the airport, handling agents and many other companies who put in a lot of hard work and effort to show what we are capable of.

In total it is almost two to three times the normal flights and passenger volumes that are handled on a normal day.

[Ranger 1]

Kept us busy as well;)

[macdo]

Near hysteria in the press of a 24 hour increase in movements to a level which should embarrass any self respecting regional airport is nothing to cheer about. Neither is getting fag ends off the Spanish or the Poles LoCo's. Disregarding the IT players there is little to attract any business traffic to CWL until an economic revival takes place or an airline sets up a proper base to replace Baby. Or, of course, the Welsh Assembly and the Owners see the light and sell the place off to the builders, BA and the IT planes go off to St Athan and we all live happily ever after! :O

[Oldtimer1]

Nice to see an old gem news report. Must be the 20th time the Western Mail have essentially reported the same story. :ugh:

Cardiff-New York air route worth £200m a year to Wales, report reveals - Wales News - News - WalesOnline (http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/2012/03/19/cardiff-new-york-air-route-worth-200m-a-year-to-wales-report-reveals-91466-30555394/)


Cardiff-New York air route worth £200m a year to Wales, report says.

A DIRECT flight service between Cardiff and New York could increase North American investment in Wales by more than £200m a year, a previously undisclosed Welsh Government report has revealed.
The document also shows a four-times-a-week transatlantic link has the potential to increase Welsh exports to North America by some £42.7m a year.
The figures are based on the assumption that the introduction of a service between Cardiff and New York would bring an extra 10,000 business visitors to Wales annually.
The 2009 report – produced for the Welsh Government by the University of Glamorgan’s Wales Transport Research Centre – was obtained by the Echo using the Freedom of Information (FOI) Act.

According to the paper, Wales receives more than 100,000 business visitors from North America per year who spend between £37m and £73m. But, its says, more important than this direct spending is the “business and investment opportunities that these visitors bring”.
“The Welsh economy is suffering because it is so difficult to travel from Wales to any of the major European and global economic hubs like New York, Frankfurt, Paris, Barcelona and further afield.

Read More Cardiff-New York air route worth £200m a year to Wales, report reveals - Wales News - News - WalesOnline (http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/2012/03/19/cardiff-new-york-air-route-worth-200m-a-year-to-wales-report-reveals-91466-30555394/#ixzz1pgKwWyPr)



My opinion is the same as before, pie in the sky thinking. New York wont happen unless the South Wales economy and Cardiff Airport have major overhauls in a positive direction.
If you want Cardiff to be successful on business routes then Frankfurt, Brussels and extra frequencies to Paris are what is needed. All of which are rather unlikely in this economic climate. KLM going back to four daily would be a start, remembering KLM connections open South Wales to the world.

[MerchantVenturer]

Carwyn Jones, the Wales First Minister, is setting up a group to look at the future of CWL.

He wants owners Abertis either to invest in the airport or sell it.

The first minister believes that CWL can overtake BRS, which he sees as its nearest rival, and become a world-class airport.

First Minister sets up new group to boost Cardiff Airport - Wales News - News - WalesOnline (http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/2012/03/27/first-minister-carwyn-jones-says-new-group-can-ensure-cardiff-airport-overtakes-bristol-91466-30629425/)

[mathers_wales_uk]

I feel that this group is only being created due to his comments in recent weeks slating the airport. I imagine that having a pop at one of Wales' infrastructure has won him any popularity contests.

Some pressure groups in support of Cardiff Airport have been persuing the need for a team Wales approach bringing the airport, Welsh Government, CBI etc aroudn a table to discuss the future.

Carwyn Jones has continued to mention sale of the airport so i'm afraid he will come to the table in the wrong frame of mind. He is not fully aware of the situations impacting the airport which some are due to knock on effect from the Welsh Government policies.

[mathers_wales_uk]

The Vueling inaugural Cardiff to Barcelona flight has been cancelled due to the general strike planned in Spain for Thursday 29th March

Read article (http://walesairforum.wordpress.com/2012/03/27/vueling-inaugural-cardiff-to-barcelona-flight-cancelled-due-to-industrial-action/)

[WELSHGUY40]

700,000 of Bristol's 5.7m passengers come from Wales. Cardiff saw just over 1.2m passengers last year. this is a disgrace the owners & management should take note and wake up to this kids could run it better :ugh:

[commit aviation]

Why is this a disgrace? The article goes on to say that Newport is about half way between Cardiff & Bristol. It's a choice, exactly the same as some one could make who lives half way between for example EMA or BHX / LBA or MAN / LHR or LGW / GLA or EDI.
Just because there happens to be a border (& an expensive bridge!) in between doesn't alter the basic principal.
We are in a recession & airlines really don't wish to take financial risks in the present climate. Against that backdrop I would suggest the addition of Vueling is a positive note & more than some regional airports have to shout about in 2012.

[TwinAisle]

I confess, I don't know why this should be regarded as a disgrace either. All airports have some leakage. What is perhaps more worrying is that even adding the 700k to the existing passenger numbers at Cardiff, the total is less that the peak passenger numbers at Cardiff.

This may well prove Cardiff's problem - where is the market? Why has it shrunk?

TA

[JSCL]

My view is, if Helvetic(Swiss) can't make the flight to Cardiff only work, KLM still fly the F70 regularly also - there is clearly a lacking demand from CWL for further outreach. I think much of that demand is near Europe and domestic UK, which is why BRS is thriving on it as it offers the direct options.

[planenut321]

First edition of Summer 2013 timetable out with some good news...

Changes:

LPA - Moves from Monday evening (18:35) to Monday morning (07:30)

IBZ - Increases from 2 weekly to 3. Late Friday night flight makes a welcomed return, dep 22:45.

PMI - Increases from 3 weekly to 5 weekly. 2 new departures on Sunday at 17:40 and Tuesday at 22:40. Now 2 flights on a Tuesday.

BOD - Moves from Monday morning (07:35) to Monday evening (17:35). Swap with LPA.

DLM - Increases from 2 weekly to 3 weekly. Sunday rotation has reappeared with dep at 17:40.

MLA - No sign of it yet.

TCX - Some flights showing on TOM website, so currently set to be around for 2013.

[Lone_Ranger]

Far too many wannabies thinking they have the answers and inventing lobby groups, meetings, plans for blah blah blah, allways been the same in Wales, hot air and meetings to decide what will be in the next meeting. We seem to be good at that

[AirGuru]

Well Loneranger, without one of these forums that you refer to, im quite sure that CWL would be without a major support group, which would further isolate the airport and its management. CWL is doing things right, they have attracted Vueling's first UK-BCN flight, over any other UK airport, although EDI and SOU are to operate in June. Then VY, announced new route launches to PMI and ALC, which have always been hugely popular at CWL ! Then, a few weeks back TOM announced that they were to increase capacity a little, along with the MON charters to SFB operating weekly in 2013. Along with 2L staying at CWL even though BRS loads are way better, all of these show that CWL is doing something right in the present economic climate, those who fail to see that i cannot speak for, but i can see along with the main welsh air forum that CWL is making slow and steady progress in the right direction.
You also have to bear in mind that South Wales is one of the most deprived areas in Europe, never mind the UK, so holidays and flights are far down the agenda for most families ! In spite of this, CWL still seems to be performing, not in line with expectations, but it is still grinding it out, and i can assure you that when the time is right, airlines will look at CWL with a closer attention to detail ! Time is of the essence.

[AirGuru]

Does anyone know when the Vueling Winter 2012 schedule is to be released ?
Also, has anyone heard about PD ?

[fanrailuk]

Welsh government willing to buy stake in Cardiff Airport « officialwan (http://bit.ly/KpxxfR)

[macdo]

Well, that'll work then, turn the bloo#y place into another branch of the Civil Service. Productivity is bound to leap upwards and South Wales is so affluent it can easily afford to pump a few more million in to subiidise a better service to Ynys Mon!:mad:

[TwinAisle]

Couldn't have put it better myself, Macdo.

The big question here - why is the WG making these comments when it has yet to work out why the airport isn't working?

I can answer that for them - because the real reason that the airport isn't working is that the Welsh economy is in the toilet, over dependent on the public sector (which is being cut), and with a culture that discourages wealth creation. No spare cash means no demand for travel means no services means failing airport.

And who did this to the Welsh economy? Step forward Carwyn and his idiot Labour mates. The ones who are trying to buy the airport. Saves them having to ask the awkward question about why the airport is struggling, anyway...

TA

[Lone_Ranger]

"Well Loneranger, without one of these forums that you refer to, im quite sure that CWL would be without a major support group, which would further isolate the airport and its management."


One of my my points made for me Guru, you believe the musings and postulations of a small group on an internet forum make a difference to how an airport is run.

[Phileas Fogg]

AirGuru is in fact 14 (ish) years old and named Benjamin.

Best ignore the child!

[USE THE RUDDERS]

Echo the four posts above, once again the WAG making stupid comments on nothing they know about.
Money from the Westminster pot and UK tax payer will be wasted by the WAG on this white elephant just so Wales can have an international airport that nobody uses or really needs.
The politicians on the gravy train down the bay can posture around and waste more time and money on this and other stupid projects, coastal paths,cycle tracks and Welsh language development to name a few that we have to put up with all backed up by the Pontcanna mafia in the BBC. (slight drift, rant over)

I go back to some of my other post on the airport, it needs to rethink and go back to basics.

[Oldtimer1]

If anyone has BBC1 Wales- 'Wales this Week' is on now, its a special about the future of Cardiff Airport with Simon Calder.

[dc9-32]

ah yes, Simon Calder. The worlds only travel journo and expert :ok:

[fanrailuk]

All change on the western front...

Cardiff Airport Chief leaves job « officialwan (http://bit.ly/Js1M5Q)

[AirGuru]

A fresh start for CWL lies ahead. If i were any of the candidates i wouldnt take the job unless Abertis stumped up the £21 Million for redevelopment. Then the WG will award the £5 Million.

Lets just hope the new MD is someone with fresh ideas, and can bring growth to CWL.

In all fairness PD has served us all well, and it will be a shame to see him leave. Lets just hope that Spencer Birns stays, he has done wonders at CWL !

[blue up]

How about ploughing a road from St Athan up to the motorway. Rail and road link from an airport to the rest of the world.

Isn't that why they built that hangar big enough to hold a herd of white elephants? Shift flights to St Athan and then turn Rhoose Municipal aerodrome into "Penarth West Housing Estate". It does kinda look as if Cardiff is being run down whilst St Athan is being spun back up.

[Phileas Fogg]

Perhaps because St. Athan's runway isn't long enough!

[USE THE RUDDERS]

Nor is BRS runway apparently!!!;)

[blue up]

500ft difference and the 09 hump-and-slope are still taking 767s. Weren't there plans a while back to extend the runway?

[WELSHGUY40]

Airlines like Emirates, with services into a hub airport in the Middle East, Delta with a service to North America and Michael O’Leary’s low-cost Ryanair, will come to Cardiff – providing Abertis offers competitive landing fees and the Welsh Government effectively underwrites any losses in the first few years of establishing financially-sustainable new routes.

[TwinAisle]

Cardiff DOES offer competitive landing (and other) charges. And I would just love to see how many milliseconds it would take after the announcement that an airline's losses would be underwritten before someone else cried Uncle. This would be unlawful state support.

As for the 'Wales is a development area therefore it's all ok, honestly' argument - that was the basis of the Charleroi defence....

It didn't wash there, either.

TA

[AirGuru]

My understanding is that FR have a 'Nil' landing charges agreement with BRS, which is why O'Leary moved there when CWL upped their charges on the DUB route back in 2006.
BRS struck the deal with FR as they could make up for it with ancillary spending within the terminal. Something which CWL doenst have the capability to do so due to the size of our departures area etc, but im sure that CWL could make it work if the need arose at anytime.

With regard to your Delta, EK theory, then i do agree, but as TA states, this would cause uproar across the severn. Back before the ryder cup, delta had gone as far as negotiating and securing landing and departure slots at CWL, so they must have been told by WG that the support was available, as they wouldnt have bothered without it. But then something must have happened as Delta pulled out of negotiations, for reasons which i nor others seem to know.

The way forward for CWL is to attract more carriers similar to Vueling such as Air Berlin or its low cost subsidiary, Niki. Then, when PAX numbers are back upto respectable levels, i.e. approaching 2 million, then the airlines that you mention may take note of CWL. The hardest struggle is getting upto around the 1.6 million mark again, which needs to gain around 500-600 thousand passengers based on current levels. Lets just keep supporting our existing routes and trying to exploit areas that BRS doesnt have covered !

Also the SFB charter with MON begins a week tomorrow, so that will help support passenger pevels a little more !

[TwinAisle]

Landing charges are of less interest than the pax service charges - the latter is a PVC, the former a DOC. And overall, the overall package to the airline is the interesting thing, not the elements of it.

The way forward for CWL is to attract more carriers similar to Vueling such as Air Berlin or its low cost subsidiary, Niki.

The way to do this is to prove in terms that the airlines understand that the market exists out of Cardiff. No one seems to want to address that elephant in the room, except the wiser heads on here. Sadly, the evidence is starting to prove the opposite.

Looking at Vueling's loads - dismal. April showed a load factor out of CWL of less than 50% - which for a low cost is poor. Unless this really picks up, we can add Vueling to the list of the 'Failed in Wales' carriers...

TA

[AirGuru]

I do agree with you there TA. Just bear in mind that it was the first full month of operations from CWL. Im sure we will be up into the 60's or 70's pretty soon. Hopefully we can achieve VY's target of 75% throughout the peak summer season.

To attract passengers, CWL has GOT to get some from across the bridge in order for us to have success. For this to happen, CWL, airlines and even VisitWales has to advertise further afield, i.e. Bristol, birmingham, exeter etc.

Also for us to achieve VY expansion next summer we have to get people on all the flights to BCN, ALC and PMI. Judging the current price of most ALC rotations, loads are looking good. PMI needs to pick up a little though, as well as BCN.
As Alex Cruz said when VY first arrived here, they will only judge the success of CWL based on the BCN route. The others would be additional, presumably developed from spencer ! Personally i would have liked to see AGP as well, although VY doesnt have that long now to decide whether they are to operate at CWL throughout the winter !

[Phileas Fogg]

TA,

Why are you even bothering to exchange with boy wonder Benjamin? :)

[TwinAisle]

But he's 39 and a 'type rated A320 captain'. :=

Off for a lie down now.

TA

[SWBKCB]

Isn't Cardiff a port? Perhaps they should be talking to Europort Express - would seem a good fit for their business model. :ok:

[Phileas Fogg]

Nope,

Cardiff Docks, Shirley Bassey likes to think of it as Tiger Bay, others call it Splott, has been redeveloped, Barry has some of it's docks remaining active but not so many banana boats coming in these days!

[MerchantVenturer]

Airlines like Emirates, with services into a hub airport in the Middle East, Delta with a service to North America and Michael O’Leary’s low-cost Ryanair, will come to Cardiff – providing Abertis offers competitive landing fees and the Welsh Government effectively underwrites any losses in the first few years of establishing financially-sustainable new routes.


This appears to be a quote from a lengthy exposition addressing CWL's current predicament that was published this weekend by the business editor of a Wales newspaper - see below link.

After many twists and turns, how can Cardiff Airport finally take off? - Business News - Business - WalesOnline (http://www.walesonline.co.uk/business-in-wales/business-news/2012/05/19/after-many-twists-and-turns-how-can-cardiff-airport-finally-take-off-91466-31000428/)

[xtypeman]

We need to put Cardiff into perspective in the current climate. As TA has said on may occasions with the state of the Welsh Economy Cardiff is not going to expand significantly in the near to mid future. Cardiff currently fills a niche that it has done for many years with its domestic schedules plus Paris and Amsterdam and the charter market. Therefore the terminal and ATC are perfectly acceptable to that level of throughput and can cope easily with passenger numbers up to 2.5mpa. As an example of the best way potentionally forward if you had seen the original Liverpool terminal after the first expansion of Low-cost there you would have seen just 16 checkin desks in what was quoted at the time as the chicken shed. This was used until the new terminal opened when passenger figures excedded 4mpa. This was much smaller than Cardiff.

Will Cardiff attract Ryan or Easy in the short term the answer is no. They will not endanger there exsiting schedules at BRS. Ah what about the leakage. This equates to approx 700,000 to BRS but this is spread over all the avaliable services from BRS. So to attract all those passengers you would need to have all the services currently operated from BRS replicated at CWL. But there would not be sufficent numbers to make these services finacially feasable. As to Long Haul firstly if BRS could not make a New York work do you really think that it would be any different for CWL I dont think so. As for Middle Eastern operators what would they look for a destination that is busy again it would be BRS before CWL based on shere passenger numbers.

What does Cardiff need to do until the economy improves and moves away from being reliant on Public Service to a mixed economy. Do simple things and consolidate. There is a network of schedules that work and there is a market for limited IT etc. If they want to attract more passengers then potentionally there are some moves that the WAG could do to assit. Currently Cardiffs hinterland is seen as South Wales this needs to be expanded. Include West and MID Wales then look at parts of the South West and Midlands. To help this could need two aspects soughting out. The Severn Bridge Tolls(a hidden tax on Wales) and the Bryn Glas tunnels. Forget the road from Culver house its a lot better than the approach to BRS. Improve signage from the West. Sorry Mathers you said that sometime ago and I agree.

In the short term do not expect too much but consolidate and grow slowly and retain.

[ArtfulDodger]

Another take on the Cardiff story.......


Article here.... Cardiff – an airport once worth £200 million now valued at just £30 million today (http://wp.me/p2jrV4-A6)

[Phileas Fogg]

"Having travelled a week ago to the USA, it was far less of a hassle to commute to London Heathrow Airport where travel options were in the 10s vs the one flight with a six-hour layover to an airport 40 miles outside of Washington via a counter-intuitive opposite direction connection over Amsterdam."

So what's the answer? Does Denis G. Campbell seriously believe and/or expect direct services from CWL to/from Washington and/or wherever he may be travelling to/from next week or next year?

The guy's an idiot, if one's local airport is a regional airport then one should expect regional air services and not wide body jets operating to all points north, south, east and west!

[TwinAisle]

Denis G Campbell has been sounding off about the airport for quite a while now. And as is common to a lot of such commentators, there are so many assumptions being made by him that the end result of his scribbling is way more heat than light....

Also, for an editor in chief, who presumably earns his crust from writing, to make so many glaring errors of both grammar and syntax, makes me question his authority again.

I'm with PF.

TA

[PPRuNeUser0176]

Vueling have announced that the 3 weekly service to ALC will now be extended from mid September until late October.

[AirGuru]

**New Route Launch Today 24/06/2012**

Vueling today launched two further destinations from CWL. 3x Weekly to both PMI and ALC. Both of which are reported to have had a pretty good take-up. I relate to EI-EIDW's post that the ALC has been extended to run the full length of October. The PMI and ALC services are operated by an A319 which is PMI based.

[AirGuru]

New report out today has suggested that a direct, express bus service from the City Centre to the airport is to be set-up. I imagine that it would be similar to the popular Bristol Flyer service ? Also, more than likely operating from Cardiff Bus Station ?

[WELSHGUY40]

the only thing there not enough passenger numbers to use it with out a low cost airline it will be just a waste of money

[EI-BUD]

A319 which is PMI


Probably most likely A320. Dont think that they have 319s?

[AirGuru]

EC-JXJ (A319) has operated the ALC and PMI routes so far !

[EI-BUD]

Sorry AirGuru, I absolutely didnt realise that they had 319s, good to know that. I really like their brand positioning and approach to marketing, I hope that they can bring this to life in Cardiff and Southampton.

How are the numbers going on the Barcelona flights so far, I hope that demand and hence the revenue has been their for them so it can stand the test of time.

[AirGuru]

No worries EI-BUD, well the numbers have not been too great so far. The loads have been around 50% in the month, and im sure it was 30% odd last month. The ALC and PMI flights are reported to have been pretty good so far, but we just need to hope for BCN to pick up a little. They stated originally that they were looking for loads in the region of 70%. It is achievable, it may just take time

[EI-BUD]

Thanks AirGuru, Vueling are a great little airline and the brand exudes fun. I think some sort of reasonable inexpensive marketing activity should take place in Cardiff and Southampton to bring notice to the brands. People who want to book flights to Barcelona from the UK largely will not know who Vueling are. I recall a very successful publicity stunt by Ryanair in Barcelona when they launches Girona flights. Something like this 'the 1st 2000 people to turn up to Plaza Catalonia' on X date get a free ticket on Ryanair.

If you consider that Vueling have 50% loads, they have plenty of empty seats to give away and surely for the purpose of such an activity the airport would forgo the fees, not sure exactly but I think it would punch a lot harder than traditional media including TV etc.

The adverts showing the Vueling 320 with the MTV titles etc and the music that it is associated with puts the brand firmly into the minds of those that see it, well that was my view on it. Perhaps set up a big screen in Cardiff and go via the Radio stations to do like FR did in Barcelona, and say 1st 300 people get free ticket. The news would cover the event and if it was oversubscribed probably better news still.

Only a suggestion...

That's the single biggest challenge for airlines entering new markets, getting the brand known and since airlines rely on their own websites as distribution channels rather than travel agents it makes the marketing bit even more important.

EI-BUD

[AirGuru]

Indeed Ei-BUD, the loads were 48 and 32 percent respectively for april and may. Yes, Vueling need to bring the brand identity with them and sell themselves to the welsh public, which still seems fixated on Baby.
I was astounded the other week when i was talking to a group of around 15 people, all of which did not even know that the Barcelona route existed from CWL, or that Vueling were here at all.
I can not fault either the airport or the airline for this, as in all honesty Vueling, in partnership with CWL have launched one of the deepest and far-reaching ad-campaigns that i personally have ever seen for an airline starting in a new area.
Adverts for the services have been seen in Plymouth, Exeter and there is a huge scattering of adverts in Bristol, including the prestigious Temple Meads. And of course, there are a few adverts in Cardiff and South Wales, on Stagecoach buses. So, yes they have done their fair share of marketing so far, just need to hope that it continues.
Your idea with the 'seat giveaway' sort of thing, is actually pretty clever. People are obviously more inclined to take a free seat on a route rather than paying, hence raising awareness. Then word of mouth when the 'free passenger' returns does the rest !

[EI-BUD]

AirGuru, good to know also that they have been active in terms of local marketing. Though it is important since it is the Welsh side that will be more relevent for marketing given that I would imagine the high proportion will originate on this side, with fewer origination in Spain.

My view is that with business busily doing something rather than nothing in terms of marketing, companies are producing more flyers and more bill boards, more mail drops, I feel that it comes to a point where people switch off and see it all as more marketing. An event FR style can walk and talk and create word of mouth. Would be worth it..? What about a deal with a chain of supermarkets to raffle 2 tickets per shop in each town/village per week for 10 weeks. something that would be added value for all concerned. The locals talk about it when somebody wins the condition is photo for local paper and Vueling written all over it.

Some of the videos and internal stuff that Vueling have created is quite motivational. Would be good to get some of that out and about in some way....

EI-BUD

[AirGuru]

Hmm yes i do agree with the things that you suggest that all could help provide more passengers to the route. If i had things my way, I would create this new Cardiff Flyer that has bee suggested today officially for the first time, then plaster it in Helvetic, Flybe, Vueling, KLM and Eastern advertisements.
There is a big screen in the city centre of Cardiff anyway as a permanent fixture above some of the shops outside St. Davids 2. That would be a great platform to launch airport advertisements from !

[LGS6753]

Vueling sponsored a 'Thirsty Thursday' event for travel agents in Cardiff recently.

[SecondDog]

In the short term do not expect too much but consolidate and grow slowly and retain.

This does seem to be the TBI/Abertis approach to things, lets hope slow and steady wins the race.

[AirGuru]

That does sound true SecondDog, back in 2007 when the airport was having the 'time of its life', Abertis offered an investment package of £20 Million, and the WG would give an extra bit on top. 2012, still no investment at all, and air services are floundering at our feet.

At least the last few months have seen some positives. For example, the re-introduction of a SFB route, Vueling, slight TOM expansion for S13.

[SecondDog]

That does sound true SecondDog, back in 2007 when the airport was having the 'time of its life', Abertis offered an investment package of £20 Million, and the WG would give an extra bit on top. 2012, still no investment at all, and air services are floundering at our feet.

At least the last few months have seen some positives. For example, the re-introduction of a SFB route, Vueling, slight TOM expansion for S13.

Good to hear on the SFB, we could do with one of those in Northern Ireland. We'll always struggle against the US Border Pre-clearance from Dublin though

[macdo]

Sorry EI-BUD, I couldn't let the Vueling, nice little airline comment rest! They aren't! They're just as bad as all the other LoCo's and would sell their own mothers for an extra dollar. They treat their staff poorly and their customers little better, see below for independent comment.
Vueling Airlines Customer Reviews | SKYTRAX (http://www.airlinequality.com/Forum/vueling.htm)
http://www.pprune.org/terms-endearment/444503-article-vueling-pilots-living-like-gipsies.html

[AirGuru]

TOM has added an extra rotation to AGP for the Summer of 2013. Good news, this route has always been popular from CWL, and this clearly shows !
Vueling was on about taking the route up, but instead they opted for PMI, but it is great to see such an established operator to increase its frequencies !

[andrew1968]

Helvetic Airways have published Winter flights Oct to Mar from BRS to ZRH, different flight times to what they are now, but same days!

Good news for Bristol, but I fear not so good for Cardiff as no sign of any flights continuing over the water this winter as with the double drop in the Summer schedule!

[planenut321]

Looks like TCX have scrapped FUE from CWL from 17th November. Route did go 2 weekly this winter and now it has gone all together. 2 charters are scheduled in Oct 2013 but that is it.

But NBE is now 2 weekly for Summer 2013.

[GXEYE]

some good news this morning BBC News - Vueling considers more flights from Cardiff Airport (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-south-east-wales-19069177)

[mustrum_ridcully]

Whilst downsizing from an A320 to an A319 on the CWL - BCN service.

I guess that goes someway towards confirming that CWLs primary customer base is sunshine destination holidaymakers. Nothing wrong with that as far as I'm concerned, but it's important that the powers that be realise and acknowledge this and not spend taxpayers money on trying to make CWL into something it's not.

[cym]

To be honest a A320 with 180 cax was always going to be a bit on the large side. In the past both Thomson and BmiBaby operated the route with 148 cax 733 aircraft. In view of this the A319 reduced cax will be much better aligned with demand.

Any cax added for S2013 you can bet will be around routes from CWL that have proven viability, increased frequencies on ALC and PMI, prob add AGP. If they want to take a punt then maybe add IBZ and MAH - all solid performing moneymakers in the summer

[mathers_wales_uk]

These next potential route from Vueling is likely to be Malaga however they were not encouraged by the yield figures obtained by bmibaby while they operated the route. If they can find a way of increasing the yield on this route then it may work well.

It is difficult to see where the other routes may appear from as it will be required to operate to/from a base or on a W pattern with a base. Another longshot maybe a return of lo-cost flights to Amsterdam.

mustrum_ridcully, the powers that have realised that they cannot solely rely on summer holiday traffic which has seen a major decline due to the ecenomic climate. What they are seeking are relistic viable links to key destinations which can be of use to the business traveller and bring passengers into the country.

The South Wales economy needs a boost however we are now in the chicken or the egg situation. The airlines needs the business and potential passengers in place to make it viable. The businesses need airlines to connect them to key destinations to entice them to set up in South Wales. So either the airlines or businesses needs to assistance from the Welsh Government.

Now we have the St Athan Enterprize Zone & the Cardiff Central Business District that both are required to be a success. We have had a encouraging start from St Athan allthough things have gone quiet but the Central Business District has been very quiet.

[EI-BUD]

Does anybody know if Vueling route is being extended across the winter (doesn't seem to be flights on sale), is it summer only or simply axed?

EI-BUD

[planenut321]

It will just be a summer route this year. VY have publicly said that they are slightly concerned with the performance of the route and are down sizing to an A319 over August. But they have also stated they are to have more flights to CWL for 2013.

[fanrailuk]

Interesting article "Cardiff Airport sees further drop in passenger numbers" which, I suppose, outlines what we all expected BUT it also states that the airport have put on hold their search for a new MD...good or bad thing? Suppose what it does mean is that Barcelona will be pulling more strings...

Cardiff Airport sees further drop in passenger numbers. « officialwan (http://bit.ly/RcR1YA)

PP :ok:

[Nakata77]

Sounds like they might have identified someone from inside that they can promote at a later date.

[AirGuru]

It certainly does sound that way, it could be more beneficial for a current member of staff to be promoted to the MD role anyhow, as they already have an idea of the situation that the airport is in !

[JSCL]

Make way for Mr Birns, me thinks!

[AirGuru]

Welsh customers get more cruise options for less (http://www.tbicardiffairport.com/en/news/1/282/welsh-customers-get-more-cruise-options-for-les….html)

This will help improve the loads on Vueling and Monarch flights, as it mentions that all 3 VY services and the MON flights to SFB will be utilised to transport passengers to the ships. Every little helps ...

[Phileas Fogg]

typical media 'dramatised' headline there is no mention that the customers are actually "Welsh" ... there's no such nationality as "Welsh" anyway!

Benjamin, or should I address you as "Air Guru" ... When are you going to come out and admit to being a 14 ish year old schoolchild and NOT a 39 year old Airbus Captain?

[mathers_wales_uk]

Somebody from Abertis is keeping an eye on Cardiff Airport possibly a temporary MD.

The current management at CWL have been advised not to apply for the post.

Several reasons in my eyes why there has been a halt. These could range from cost saving measures during the downturn to looking for the perfect candidate.

Spencer Birns is working his nuts off to drum up business including traveling several meetings in various countries.

They are attending the routes conference in Abu Dhabi too.

[mathers_wales_uk]

Newmarket additional one-off charters for 2013 to Milan, Oporto, Genoa & Naples.

Click here to find out more (http://walesairforum.wordpress.com/2012/08/23/cardiff-airport-newmarket-holidays-for-2013/)

[mathers_wales_uk]

I have noticed that there seems more logic to this years operation.

The aircraft will operate a night stop after arriving from Milan to operate the Oporto. Also when the aircraft arrives from Genoa it will turnaround to Naples.

This will remove 4 positioning flights and save Newmarket around £20,000 and makes a load of sense compared to this year where every flight had a positioning sector attached.

It is also a way to ensure that these packages are more of a success.

P.S. Thanks for the link Phileas

[mathers_wales_uk]

The Welsh economy is likely to contiunue to struggle as a Welsh MP calls for the expansion of Birmingham instead of Heathrow.

It is a shame that he is not calling for developments to Cardiff Airport first and foremost. Afterall that would heve a better impact on the Welsh economy and increase then umber of Welsh jobs other than Birmingham.

We must expand Birmingham - not Heathrow says Welsh MP - News Article (http://walesairforum.wordpress.com/2012/09/02/we-must-expand-birmingham-not-heathrow-says-welsh-mp/http://)

[Phileas Fogg]

mathers,

With all due respect please try to address some issues nearer to home than BHX and/or LHR.

How many roundabouts do BHX and/or LHR have between their nearest motorways and passenger drop-off/pick-up points and or car parks and how many roundabouts does CWL have between it's nearest motorway and airport?

P.S. I know the answer because I learned to drive an LGV1 around so many damn South Glamorgan roundabouts in such a short space of time.

[WELSHGUY40]

Cardiff Airport Suffered A £319,000 loss More concerns Now Things Are Not Looking Good At The Moment :sad:

[Phileas Fogg]

Mathers,

Lulsgate airfield was created as a training aid for pilots to operate in the cr@ppiest of weather conditions, that was back in circa the war yet it still provides for such a training aid to this day. :)

Why Filton never became Bristol's airport remains one of life's mysteries so you won't get me on the journey to/from Lulsgate, I drove it many a time and it's cr@p.

CWL should forget about Rhoose village and it's 'Cardiff Airport' rail station and concentrate on improving bus services from/to Cardiff Central, I've said it before and I'll say it again ... half size buses and twice as many of them particularly early morning and late evening, never mind the X91 once every 2 hours and/or the X45/46 every hour but then only if it turns up!

[mathers_wales_uk]

Phileas,

I cannot disagree with you on that as I stated above allthough I did not stress the number of buses per/hour and/or size.

The public transport is practically non existent and it has long been mentioned that a direct express bus service from Cardiff Airport to the City Centre should become a priority especially as it is not possible ot increase the number of trains until at least 2014.

[MerchantVenturer]

The reason that the Bristol City Council opted for Lulsgate in the 1950s instead of Filton was mainly because they would have been tenants of the airfield operator at Filton (BAC in those days) and the good aldermen and councillors didn't like that idea - they were councillors after all so you can't expect them to have made sensible decisions!

By the 1990s the environmental lobby was in full swing and at a public enquiry successfully managed to persuade an inspector to reject Bae's application to turn Filton into a city airport (around 1996 from memory).

Assuming that a working arrangement could have been established between the airport operator and airfield owner/occupier at Filton it's not fanciful to suggest that Bristol would have done even better in the airport stakes than it has, taking into account the various disadvantages of the Lulsgate site.

Maybe it's a good thing for CWL that Filton wasn't chosen. It seems to be struggling to cope with BRS at present. Imagine a 'BRS' at the larger Filton site with much quicker and easier access to Wales, nearby intersection of two major motorways, main rail line nearby with a branch line through the site (though from where I live in south Bristol Lulsgate is easier and quicker to reach than Filton).

Sadly, Filton's runway is to close at the end of this year.

BRS was quick off the mark - over a decade ago - with its Flyer bus link, operated for it by First under contract. It runs every 10 minutes in each direction from very early morning till mid evening and at lesser frequency in the late evening and right through the night. It's extremely popular with through booking facilities on rail and National Express and has to a great extent overcome BRS's lack of rail access. Many of the Flyers were chock full of punters mainly off the trains again today - they are a fleet of 12 airport-liveried 37-seat Volvos with internal luggage space.

CWL needs something like that though I think it's too easy to blame poor access alone for its ills in recent years as is often heard.

The Lulsgate site at Broadfield Down was originally a relief landing ground for RAF Weston-super-Mare in WW2. In radiation fog conditions the lower airfields were fog-bound but Lulsgate at over 600 feet elevation stood above it - still happens at times of course - and it was turned into an RAF airfield in 1941. The first aircraft to land was a Luftwaffe Junkers 88 that had become disorientated after a bombing raid and was 'captured' by George Wimpey workmen building the new RAF airfield. An onsite detachment of military personnel quickly appeared and the RAF found itself in possession of a nearly new and undamaged Ju 88.

[Phileas Fogg]

It's been said, many a time, and it's true that BRS and CWL have totally different catchment areas and clientel in those areas.

BRS has picked up on the market, both business and leisure, for folk all the way from Lands End up until circa Gloucester, across to Swindon and mid point to the BOH area. These folk would otherwise need to travel all the way to such airports as LHR/LGW.

CWL, on the other hand, has a sparsely populated catchment area with reletively little business travel demand, which KLM have something of a monopoly serving, and mainly holiday leisure travel for once, or twice, yearly holidays of which many will book inclusive tour package holidays and not opt for a LoCo seat only even if a LoCo is serving the destination they wish to holiday in.

Because of CWL's sparsely populated, and nature of, catchment area it's never likely to be a busy passenger airport and, as with the BA maintenance facility, might focus it's attention to making revenue from aviation related business other than passengers ..... but,:

Now they've decided to develop the former RAF St. Athan that's within spitting distance of CWL, to create an enterprise zone or whatever offering businesses financial incentives to come and develop their business at St. Athan, so what chance of CWL attracting non passenger related aviation business now?

Just as an example, in the 80's, Norman were making crop sprayers over where the CWL flying club(s) are, no chance of any business revenue like that returning because they'd opt for St. Athan instead.

Just by reading such threads as this it is apparent that South Wales hasn't been able to support one profitable licensed aerodrome so who the **** decided to develop a second licensed aerodrome and within spitting distance of the first licensed aerodrome?

[airsmiles]

Phileas, I agree with most of your last post but I can't believe the catchment area can get anywhere close to BOH. It's a nightmare journey north-east from BOH area on pathetic country roads. I've tried supposedly close BRS a few times and always regretted it. In reality LHR is better for me to get to from the greater BOH area.

[GROUNDHOG]

I think Phileas actually said mid point to the BOH area, not sure anyone would argue with the fact LGW or LHR are a far better bet from Bournemouth or therabouts.

Phileas is again quite right that CWL like NQY is in a geographical position that it needs to develop other revenue sources than just that derived from flights scheduled or charter.

Until it does that it will bimble along with revenue fluctuating only marginally into the next decade or until it goes the same way as PLH.

[mathers_wales_uk]

It has been confirmed today that Helvetic Airways will cease operating flights from Cardiff Airport at the end of the summer.

Swiss Airline Helvetic ends Cardiff winter flights - view article (http://walesairforum.wordpress.com/2012/09/11/swiss-airline-helvetic-ends-cardiff-winter-flights/)

[AirGuru]

This comes as no great surprise, as was said a few weeks ago when they put BRS on sale. From a company perspective, their website and booking engine does not seemed to be indexed on google, so that when you search for helvetic airways, their landing page does not appear ?

In the article it does mention that they are trying to get the route back for next summer with Helvetic searching for tour operators to help fill the route. But surely ZRH should be marketed more as a winter destination ?

It also mentions that they are in advanced discussions with Vueling, to no great surprise. I wonder what their offering will be for next year ? More of the same me thinks !

[mathers_wales_uk]

Cardiff Airport passenger statistics for August 2012 have now been released. - Click to view
(http://walesairforum.wordpress.com/2012/09/16/stats-august-2012-stats-are-available-on-waf/http://)

[mathers_wales_uk]

The First Minister, Carwyn Jones will today join fellow first ministers at Downing Street to discuss strategies to revive the UK economy and the contreversial issue of aviation policy.

It is believed the First Minister does not wish to drawn into the row over Heathrow and Boris Island but the efforts of the Welsh Government will be on ensuring the future of Cardiff Airport.

First Minister to discuss airport strategy at crucial ministerial meeting - view article (http://walesairforum.wordpress.com/2012/09/19/first-minister-to-discuss-airport-strategy-at-crucial-ministerial-meeting/http://)

[Ye Olde Pilot]

I've been associated with EGFF Cardiff ever since I learnt to fly there 32 years ago.

The sad thing is the management have dreams above what can be achieved and in my opinion have gone down the Blackpool, Newquay and Norwich route of pricing themselves out of the Ryanair market.

Bristol has the low cost carriers and despite the difficulty of getting to their site by road they have excelled. Logic suggests that Filton should be the international airport for the south west and Cardiff should concentrate on aircraft maintenance. There is no way they can ever extend the runway.

[MerchantVenturer]

They'll have to be quick.

BAE is closing the Filton runway permanently in just over three months time.

[Phil Space]

Close Lulsgate and Rhoose and make Filton the UK West International airport?

[crewmeal]

What a waste of a good airfield. Boris and the politicians should have got hold of this one and named it 'London West' With all the excellent rail and motorway facilities available Filton has to be one of the best in the country.I still have trouble navigating around Bristol's one way systems trying to get to that field on the hill called Lulsgate.

And in 10 years from now I guess Filton will be another housing estate.

[MerchantVenturer]

And in 10 years from now I guess Filton will be another housing estate.

Part of it already is and plans are afoot to build houses on a lot of the remainder well inside ten years. The aviation industries remain though.

Returning to the CWL theme, from time to time embryonic 'plans' surface for a Severnside airport by the estuary to replace both CWL and BRS. Filton might well have become that airport, albeit a bit inland from the estuary bank.

So the fact that Fiton was never developed is good news for South Wales in the sense that the Principality retains its own independent airport.

[fanrailuk]

Excellent news today that CWL's new attraction Vueling VY are to serve Malaga AGP direct next summer starting 02 April, frequency at 3 x weekly.

PP :ok:

[mathers_wales_uk]

It is great news PP however at the moment no flights are on sale for PMI which was 3 x weekly this year. This route is not showing as an indirect route either so maybe not released yet.

BCN is also showing as a 2 x weekly which is a drop from 3 x weekly.

It will be great to see Vueling back next year and im praying for the return of PMI.

Possibly more news on its way so time for a glass half full mentally I think from now on.

[PPRuNeUser0176]

The airline have almost no routes on sale from PMI yet so I wouldn't worry about it not being out yet. Vueling have said a recently that a new base outside Spain would be opened next summer. Is there any chance that Cardiff could be in with a chance. Would be great for the airport if it happened.

[AirGuru]

Cardiff Airport to get major overhaul and new route (http://www.walesonline.co.uk/cardiffonline/cardiff-news/2012/09/24/cardiff-airport-to-get-major-overhaul-and-new-route-first-minister-reveals-91466-31897637/)


Some good news !

[mathers_wales_uk]

More information on the Vueling routes hase been release by Cardiff Airport - click here (http://walesairforum.wordpress.com/2012/09/24/vueling-launch-summer-2013/)

A statement by Cardiff Airport has also been included to AirGuru's article above - Updated Article here (http://walesairforum.wordpress.com/2012/09/24/cardiff-airport-to-get-major-overhaul-and-new-route-first-minister-reveals/)

[mathers_wales_uk]

A new article found this morning states that 35% extra seats will be offered by Vueling in Summer 2013 from Cardiff compared to this year.

Palma de Mallorca route is still being evaluated.

Hopefull Helvetic service will resume in Summer 2013

First Minister anticipating announcements about more routes in the future

Click to view article (http://walesairforum.wordpress.com/2012/09/25/new-malaga-flight-from-cardiff-says-vueling/)

[fanrailuk]

An official press release has been released by CWL on their attendance at the World Routes conference in Abu Dhabi. As with most other airports they are hoping to find new routes and carriers as a result of attending, as a re many of us users and supporters in the region.

Airport and Welsh Government go far to entice airlines to Wales (http://t.co/AF9zTa1M)

PP :ok:

[mathers_wales_uk]

Plaid Cymru leader Leanne Wood is calling for the Welsh Government to take a stake in Cardiff Airport according to an article released today - click to view article (hthttp://walesairforum.wordpress.com/2012/10/04/plaid-cymru-call-for-public-stake-in-cardiff-airport/tp://)

What are your opinions on this?

[davidjohnson6]

How would Govt buying part of the private airport company contribute to improving passenger numbers ?

[Phileas Fogg]

Well if MoD St. Athan is at it says, owned by the Ministry of Defence (Air) who are, in turn, British government owned and paid for by the British taxpayer then if CWL is to be, part or wholly, owned by the Welsh Government, who are in turn funded by the British government, who are in turn funded by the British taxpayer, then I'd suggest ..... "2 state owned commercial aerodromes within spitting distance of each other? ... Someone needs to get a grip on reality and explain to this Welsh government bunch of clowns that taxpayers money is hard earned and doesn't grow on trees"!

[mathers_wales_uk]

A poll has now been created on this subject.

Do you agree with Plaid Cymru AM Leanne Wood that the Welsh Government should have a stake in Cardiff Airport? vote now (http://polldaddy.com/poll/6582705/)

[Phileas Fogg]

Thanks all the same but I think I'll pass, I need to put the cockroaches and lizards out before retiring for the evening.

[GROUNDHOG]

You lucky boy Phileas,I've gotta deal with the bears and the cougars!

[ericlday]

So putting the cat out might be a tougher job than I expected !!!

[LGS6753]

Allowing politicians to get their hands on anything is the kiss of death. Unfortunately, most of the people who had completed this poll seemed to think otherwise. :yuk:

If you want CWL to prosper, it needs dynamic management, reduced overheads, access to investment and a stronger economy. None of these will be offered by a politically-aligned management.

[mathers_wales_uk]

So should the Welsh Government have a stake in Cardiff Airport?

At present it does seem that the Welsh Government is working closer together with Cardiff Airport and taking a more hands on approach by visitng Farnborough Airshow and Routes with Cardiff Airport. A joint approach afterall can only be a positive one especially is it was what Wales Air Forum called for in the previous ACC meeting.


But

The Welsh Government does not have a published policy on Welsh Aviation and therefore such a move could be regarded as dangerous and certainly a waste of time, resources and public money.


The Cardiff Airport Task Force is missing one vital perspective that needs to be looked at and that is one of the airline/tour operator. Afterall nobody is going to know what an airline is looking for more than an airline itself


Now if an aviation expert asside from those at Cardiff Airport had a place on the task force it would be one thing however a Union representative brings no value to the debate at all.

[SWBKCB]

"Airport and Welsh Government go far to entice airlines to Wales"

...or a 'Jolly' in other terms. Nice work if you can get it, easier than doing the job properly.

Whoever organises these Routes conferences must be laughing all the way to the back.

At least they fill column inches in local rags all over the country...

[mathers_wales_uk]

With all due respect SWBKCB it was where Cardiff Airport first started discussions with Vueling.

The Welsh Government hadn't really paid that much an interest in Cardiff Airport until recently. Many has called for a joint up approach to trying to attract airlines and routes to Cardiff Airport which thankfully is exactly what is happening.

I wouldn't however rely solely on the Welsh Government who seems to have no experience in this field. Look at what's happened to Wales since the Welsh tourist board and Welsh Development Agency were taken in house.

The reluctance to find ways of legally supporting a 5 x weekly New York service which would cost similar to what is currently being paid to the Anglesey route. This would have been in place for the 2010 Ryder Cup at the Celtic Manor. Welsh Government sat on a report that they themselves commissioned which agreed the New York would be of benefit to Wales.

[johnnychips]

Look at what's happened to Wales since the Welsh tourist board and Welsh Development Agency were taken in house.

Erm...what has happened?

[SWBKCB]

With all due respect SWBKCB it was where Cardiff Airport first started discussions with Vueling.

Really? No previous contact with one of Europe's major Loco's? No previous contact with a Spanish Loco when your major Loco routes are to Spain? What do these people do all day?

[merchant sailors]

Actually CWL met Vueling and Click Air back at routes in 2006 for the first time.
Long before their merger and before either were large companies.
At that meeting and the following meetings the airlines were curious about the market but not keen on coming into the uk.

Meeting them every year at routes world and routes europe helped to raise the profile and awareness further. It is far from a jolly. Attending these events is all about what the attendees do to make them fruitful. Ask most airports and airline and they will tell you it is a very cost effective method of seeing loads of relevant customers for them over 3 days.

CWL mentioning it in the media this year is more about helping to change stakeholder perceptions. This is crucial this year as the Politicians have been showing little interest in the value of aviation over the last 10 years, until when it finally suited them to take a more pro-active interest earlier this year.

[GROUNDHOG]

The scheduling meetings are a jolly, always have been and always will be. Cardiff Airport needs passengers not Politicians, Planners or Pen Pushers and there are simply not enough of the former. Accept it and tailor what you have to the limited market making revenue from other sources.

[WATABENCH]

4 Easyjets headed to CWL this lunchtime from BRS due WX.

Murcia, Alicante, Nice and Palma.

Enjoy my friends :ok:

[Suzeman]

The scheduling meetings are a jolly, always have been and always will be.

The IATA scheduling conferences are a different kettle of fish to Routes. Where else would you find "2,800 senior professionals who represent over 300 airlines and 750 airports as well as numerous governments, destinations and tour operators" under one roof?? CEO's, Vice Presidents, Senior Government officials?? Certainly not at the IATA scheduling conference.

I would suggest that if your airport is NOT at Routes, they will miss a massive opportunity to renew old contacts and make new ones. The fact that Vueling's interest stems from initial contacts at Routes some years ago is evidence that it does work. For the cost to the Marketing Budget of one trip to Routes, you can save a lot rather than if you had to make a number of speculative individual trips to see potential airlines.

And of course if you don't go, airlines will wonder why not and may take it that the airport is not interested in route development. Remember that the airlines are presented with many more proposals than they are able - or want - to take up at these conferences, but will follow up the most interesting in private after the short formal meetings, which is how the system works.

Don't expect instant results, but Routes is one of the best ways to get your ideas out into the market place at value for money cost.

On the other hand the IATA Scheduling conference is mostly about slots at slot controlled airports, with some airports being there to meet airline schedulers mostly.

Cardiff Airport needs passengers not Politicians, Planners or Pen Pushers

I'm sure many other airports share your sentiments. Unfortunately, the real world has these people who need to be brought into the loop. Airports need to inform and influence these people about a range of topics (APD for instance), otherwise they can cause a lot of damage to businesses.

Suzeman

[mathers_wales_uk]

The final count of diverts for Cardiff yesterday were six.

EZY444 Belfast Int - Bristol
EZY6072 Alicante - Bristol
EZY6012 Murcia - Bristol
EZY6114 Nice - Bristol
EZY6040 Palma - Bristol
TCX7175 Corfu - Bristol

Full details of these diverts and all other recent diverts can be found here (http://walesairforum.wordpress.com/category/diverts/)

[Keyvon]

Lufthansa is to launch a new route linking Cardiff with Dusseldorf, starting from 4 May 2013.
This is going to be a seasonal summer-only service operated on a weekly basis, on Saturdays, with a CRJ-900 aircraft.
It looks to be a semi-chartered flight for German holidaymakers visiting Wales on escorted tours.

[davidjohnson6]

Is there something particular which appeals to the German psyche to visit places like the Scottish Highlands, Wales, Cornwal and Jersey ?
Dusseldorf seems to be the only urban non-UK European centre with purely seasonal leisure routes to these UK destinations

[cornishsimon]

Well Germany - Cornwall is going full steam ahead.

Germans love cornwall thanks to Cornwall being heavily featured on German TV as a reult of Rosamunde Pilcher books being turned into TV films
Rosamunde Pilcher - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosamunde_Pilcher)

The DUS-NQY route stated a few years ago on the CRJ200 i think off the top of my head and had a limited 6 or 8 week Saturday only run.

Now the route runs twice weekly, Saturdays on a mainline 735 and Wednesdays on a CRJ:
Dusseldorf from Newquay Cornwall Airport - Lufthansa increases flights for Summer 2012 | Newquay Cornwall Airport (http://www.newquaycornwallairport.com/about/media-center/news/dusseldorf-newquay-cornwall-airport-lufthansa-increases-flights-summer-2012)

cs

[mathers_wales_uk]

There are certainly reasons to be optimistic now - Return of German link to Cardiff Airport (http://walesairforum.wordpress.com/2012/10/10/return-of-german-link-to-cardiff-airport/)

Cosmos Florida 50% capacity increase
Vueling 35% capacity increase
Flybe additional weekly flights to Jersey
Thomson additional weekly flight to Malaga
Atlantic holidays additional flight to Madeira
Increase offering by Newmarket holidays
* New Weekly Lufthansa flights to Dusseldorf
* New Prima Reisen charters bringing inbound Austrian tourists to Wales
* New Lowcostholidays.com weekly charters to Palma de Mallorca

[airhumberside]

Is there something particular which appeals to the German psyche to visit places like the Scottish Highlands, Wales, Cornwal and Jersey ?
Dusseldorf seems to be the only urban non-UK European centre with purely seasonal leisure routes to these UK destinations
Helvetic also have a ZRH-INV, and there are quite a few Germany-Channel Island services on Summer weekends (and some from Rotterdam?)

And this Summer also saw some inbound charters from France to GLA, as a gateway to Scotland. EDI also has some seasonal services from continental Europe aimed at the inbound market (Niki, Orbest Orizonia from Madrid for example)

[J-Guy]

Is there something particular which appeals to the German psyche to visit places like the Scottish Highlands, Wales, Cornwal and Jersey?

The German flights to the Channel Islands have done well in recent years. I think the number of German-speaking tourists to Jersey has increased by something like 20% in the last 2 years. This has a lot to do with a good exchange rate, but also because outdoor activities are very popular among German tourists, as well as there being a large number of language students.

I have flown to Hamburg, Dusseldorf and Munich a few times with Lufthansa/Air Berlin (being the only Jersey person onboard) and they always seem popular. Great to see another UK destination getting in on the act!

[mathers_wales_uk]

Some good news coming from Cardiff Airport

Official announcement on Lufthansa route - click to view (http://walesairforum.wordpress.com/2012/10/16/lufthansa-to-operate-new-services-to-cardiff-airport/)

Leading German airline, Lufthansa has announced it will be commencing summer services to Cardiff from Dusseldorf starting 4th May 2013.

KLM adjust summer 2013 schedule from Cardiff Airport - click to view (http://walesairforum.wordpress.com/2012/10/16/klm-adjust-summer-2013-schedule-from-cardiff/)

KLM has adjusted the schedule for Summer 2013 operations to and from Cardiff Airport.

[MerchantVenturer]

Cardiff Airport has the potential to grow passengers to three million - Business News - Business - WalesOnline (http://www.walesonline.co.uk/business-in-wales/business-news/2012/10/17/cardiff-airport-has-the-potential-to-grow-passengers-to-three-million-91466-32044815/)

This newspaper report presents a glowing almost messianic view of CWL's future. Perhaps the author has had tea with the Wales First Minister.

It concludes:

While it has to be seen as a long-term turnaround, there is no reason why Cardiff Airport, cannot reach three million passengers a year by 2020 – with a target by 2025 of overtaking Bristol – as a result of a focused public-private partnership approach and investment in transport infrastructure significantly widening Cardiff’s passenger catchment area.


That would be some performance because passenger figures would have to treble in the next eight years. They would then have to rise from 3 mppa to probably at least around 8 mppa in the following five years from 2020 to 2025, because if CWL was performing that well it can reasonably be anticipated that economic conditions had improved to the extent that other airports would have also enjoyed better fortune. 8 mppa would be the likely BRS minimum figure in 2025 in such market conditions - unless the Wales First Minister knows different of course for it was he a few months ago who said that CWL would catch then overtake BRS.

The optimism seems to be based on a new spirit of co-operation between airport, local interests and state; a hoped for improved rail connectivity; better bus services to the airport; the can't-see-why-it won't-happen arrival of a major low-cost player with Jet2 the favoured entrant; links to the East with such as Emirates; expansion of Lufthansa to bring in many thousands of toruists each year; more inbound tourism charters; devolvement of APD to Wales.

It all sounds like a political party manifesto.

If half of this happens it will be some journey.

[TwinAisle]

Perhaps the author has had tea with the Wales First Minister

I think you meant LSD, not tea.

Let me give you a great reason why Cardiff will not outgrow Bristol. THE MARKET. Bristol's is larger, more diverse, more affluent and has a higher PTF.

Notice as well that no-where does the article mention the airport's customers - the airlines. Wonder if Carwyn doesn't want to hear the truth?

TA

[xtypeman]

And the Welsh economy or lack of! Even Plaid admitted that the Welsh economy has been retracting for the past 20 years!......For the rest of the UK only the past couple of years and signs of slow recovery.....

[j636]

A new article found this morning states that 35% extra seats will be offered by Vueling in Summer 2013 from Cardiff compared to this year.

Palma de Mallorca route is still being evaluated.



Palma on sale for 2013 does that mean that there will be more than 35% increase in seats as PMI wasn't on sale when that was announced.

[mathers_wales_uk]

I'm not sure of the exact percentage increase however with all routes expected to operate on an Airbus A320 at present your probably looking at over 50% increase compared to 2012

[AirGuru]

Well isnt this interesting ... http://www.walesonline.co.uk/business-in-wales/business-news/2012/10/31/plans-to-transform-cardiff-from-regional-airport-to-international-hub-revealed-91466-32133491/ The Western Gateway project wants an investment of £250m into Cardiff Airport in order to become an international hub that can serve fully laden flights to the US west coast etc. The plan is being officially submitted to the UK Government today, so lets hope something comes of this in the future !

[Panther]

Very interesting. I have always thought that Cardiff had the potential to do something big, so lets hope this comes to something. Lets get the road built from the M4 now however..............

[AirGuru]

Yes indeed, but it seems aa though infrastructure developments are part of the plans. This will more than likely need some form of government backing ...

[Phileas Fogg]

A runway long enough to support 'heavies' to USA's west coast might be considered before any motorway link!

[pug]

The Western Gateway project wants an investment of £250m into Cardiff Airport in order to become an international hub that can serve fully laden flights to the US west coast etc.

Where are the passengers going to come from?

[AirGuru]

Well why else do we travel to Heathrow ? Reverse principle applies. Also if the Severn Barrage is constructed from Hinkley Point to Newport, then that will dramatically slash travelling time to CWL from the entire south-west, assuming of course it is built with a road-rail on top.

[pug]

Well why else do we travel to Heathrow

Because the airlines fly from there, and that is because the propensity to fly is by far the greatest in the South East compared with the rest of the UK.

I'm not sure of figures, but I would be pretty certain demand from the CWL catchment area is actually pretty low, even when you are comparing CWL to BRS.

[yeo valley]

i learned to day that the cwl sfb flights next summer are pulled.

[MaxRange120]

Along with the road built from the M4 however, you need to upgrade the A/F aids, this might help a bit,the closure of Filton as an active airfield makes this available, much of the current equipment is being put up for sale:

BAE System's Filton Airfield, Air Traffic Control Systems - All Lots - GoIndustry DoveBid (http://www.go-dove.com/en/event-16773/BAE-Systems-Filton-Airfield-Air-Traffic-Control-Systems/lots)

[TwinAisle]

Pug is right - why do I fly from Heathrow? Choice, price, frequent flyer program, you name it.

I am quite surprised that anyone is taking this seriously - clearly, airline economics have passed them by. The whole point of a hub is that enough people will use it to create enough traffic to make it work, both in terms of terminal traffic (which is going to be hard, since there really is not that much demand for most of these routes in the South West of England, South Wales) and in terms of interline traffic.

You don't just 'create' a hub - you need to get a very major player - a VERY major player - to come and cornerstone it, or alternatively get a whole host of network carriers in there.

Say they get TAM for South America, Etihad for the Middle/Far East, KLM is already there for Europe (although if they lose all their connecting traffic they may not be), and say Kenya Airways for all points south. Is that enough? No, no where near enough. Close down Bristol, Gloucester? That would help, but do you imagine that that would be possible, even with a barrage? Not a cat in hell's chance.

Pie in the sky, I'm afraid.

TA

[pipertommy]

Heathrow idea is so far fetched it will never happen! The airport would need complete rebuild and airfield is just to badly designed for parking of heavy a/c.
Limited air bridges, small departures lounge, crap security check point. Dream on people.
If the basic operations prove testing for cwl, this is like running in a egg and spoon one day and an ironman the next.

[MerchantVenturer]

I've read through the newspaper report more than once and the proposal is so light on detail as to be irrelevant at this stage. There is talk about a more detailed submission in due course but do the proponents already have a sort of 'back of fag packet' idea that they hope to translate into an arguable case?

There so many imponderables anyway. The road and rail infrastructure would clearly have to come from the public purse and the Severn Barrage is so controversial and comes in many versions that there is no certainty it will ever be built or, if it is, whether the design will allow road or rail passage across it.

But who is to foot the bill for what would be an immense sum to transform CWL into a major gateway airport? The current owners seem reluctant to do more than apply the odd lick of paint.

Is this something else the scheme supporters hope will come largely from public funding or do they they themselves intend to try to gain control of the airport and invest a huge amount of their own money?

Even if all the funding could be found and all the connecting and airport infrastructure built I'm still not sure what a Western Gateway means. Is it primarily intended for travellers to and from the south-west corner of Great Britain or as a full-blown alternative to Heathrow?

If the former, as TwinAisle (a man who knows a thing or two about airlines and airports from first-hand experience over many years) points out, a gateway aimed primarily at south-west Britain would not provide the numbers of passengers for even an emasculated LHR-type operation, and just a few long-haul flights would still send the majority of travellers to LHR of necessity.

If the idea is to be a sort of Heathrow overflow the suggestion made in another post that reverse principle applies is difficult to sustain. CAA and other surveys show that somewhere between 70% and 80% of LHR (and LGW for that matter) passengers originate or terminate in the South East. A tiny fraction of this figure does so in south-west Britain. This means that many, many more travellers would have to make their way from a CWL gateway to the South East than currently do so from LHR/LGW to the South West/South Wales.

In any case, if a major, or at least an important, gateway is needed away from the South East then Birmingham Airport seems the obvious contender. It's already an option for South Wales/South West travellers and it possesses rail and pretty decent road connectivity with a runway that's being lengthened and, according to its CEO, the ability to immediately double its current 9 mppa.

I really do find it hard to take the group's proposal seriously at this point though I do look forward to studying their worked-up, business case when it reaches the public domain.

[Phileas Fogg]

As someone, not so long ago, previously posted ..... "Only in this thread" :)

[blue up]

an investment of around £70m would be needed to lengthen and widen Cardiff’s existing runway.

45 metres width not enough???


Why would we expect a massive increase in pax through Cardiff?

I would have thought that the best way to increase visitor numbers would be to put in a decent road link and then turn the whole thing into the biggest IKEA in the world. That'd create jobs.

With fuel prices going through the roof I've told my son he is unlikely to get a job as a pilot when he is old enough due to the way the industry is progressing. What will happen to the industry when even Ryanair pax will not foot the escalating bill for jet fuel? How would you get your £70M back?

[Phileas Fogg]

Excuse me for stating the obvious but 'jet fuel', as you refer to it, comes from the same crude product as does moped fuel, car fuel, bus fuel etc. etc. etc.

Your son, by the sound of it, is going to have bl00dy sore feet!

[blue up]

I doubt that in 30 years time the price of fuel will be less, what with more people using more cars and all of us chasing stocks of petro products. Not so much the fuel running out as us being outbid on it. Remember during the fuel strike a few years ago when fuel shot up to 65p per litre??? What is it now?
There must surely come a point in time when travelling to Mexico for a week in the sun will become so expensive that we give it up as an excessively expensive luxury. A bit like getting bladdered on a Friday night has already become.:(
Spending £70M on an airport seems (to me at least) a bit like buying up all the cigarette factories at a knock-down price in that it may seem a bargain in the short term but you are going to need to get a return from an ever shrinking and fragile market. How many pax do you need to fly to service a £70M expenditure?

I didn't take a holiday abroad this year for cost reasons and I'm a Cardiff pilot with Thomson.


Note. Thomson sized airlines spend the thick end of $500M per year on jet fuel.

[SWBKCB]

Mr Evans said a “build it and they will come” strategy should be adopted at Cardiff Airport.

perhaps a study tour of Spain might be useful...

[GROUNDHOG]

Words of wisdom from Merchant Venturer (of course), nothing wrong with pipe dreams but sorry Guys listen to those who have been there - it just isn't going to happen in Cardiff for now.

[Stone Cold II]

Cardiff will never learn. It never has. No point whatsoever in paying out stupid sums of money that it can't afford to waste to offer improvements to nobody.

Need a good deal amount of airlines and I'm afraid it fails to attract them. Big problem is the poor catchment area and the 2 biggest brands down the road at BRS who offer flights generally daily to most places across Europe.

Face it, the airport is stuffed and doomed to remain a quiet seasonal airport for the future unless someone drops a bomb on BRS. That's the facts and regardless what anyone says it isn't changing anytime soon this decade, I'll bet my entire career earnings on it!

[WELSHGUY40]

looking on cardiff wiki thomas cook is showing orlando sanford and done the search on thomas cook website no dates loaded yet tho

[caaardiff]

Thomas Cook are doing a 1-off SFB in March, i think for Easter holidays. It's been on sale for several months. Hopefully its not too late to pick up where Monarch left. That's if the route is viable of course!

[bamcb38c]

the route cwl-sfb yield wise has been shocking ever since the travel city days (as a direct result of theyre 'pile them high, sell um cheap' philosophy').

[bristolflyer]

The greatest mistake CWL management made was loosing Ryanair. Had they kept them CWL would now be a real counter weight to BRS. Politicians and planning don't work. Goggle Ciudad Airport in Spain as a stunning example of political build and they will come thinking. Regional airports have expanded because of low cost airlines. They struggle to attract and hold full service legacy carriers. If you removed easyjet and Ryanair from Bristol there isn't much left. AF, KLM and EI etc. The Lo-co's didn't come for the design and architecture at BRS they came because of good contractual terms and an affluent catchment area. Investing £250 million is peanuts, that'll get you some new toilets, an additional airbridge and some new baggage carts. I would love to see a Gulf airline and/or CO/UA back at BRS, but it won't happen. The UK is a small island with room for one hub airport. That hub is yet to be built and it should be in South East. CWL suffered because BMI Baby repelled other Lo-Co's whilst not investing to make it successful. They need to be realistic and that means attracting Jet2 or somebody else to have a real crack at building a budget network. No it isn't glamorous, but if the likes of Birmingham and Manchester struggle to hold a limited full service network Cardiff has no chance. Passengers will be attracted by a competitively priced ticket to a destination they want to fly to. How many people fly to LAX from Wales and the West each week? Not enough to fill a 737, let alone a 777 on a daily basis. However there are enough passengers who want to fly to Faro, Malaga etc. Focus on what people want and not a vanity project. If politicians become involved CWL will simply become a folly to Carwyn Jones' ego.

[TwinAisle]

I have to take issue with some of that, Bristolflyer.

I don't think Cardiff management did 'lose Ryanair'. Ryanair, like all other well run operations, moves to make the most of its market. I don't think for a single second that there is anything, short of throwing crazy amounts of subsidy at them, that would have made Ryanair say no to BRS, and yes to CWL.

We do have a hub airport - it's just outside Hounslow. It's not perfect, but has become the nation's hub airport since that is where the majority of the market is. Improve it, yes, add more runways hell yes - but move it? No.

bmibaby certainly did not repel other carriers. There were more than enough destinations left uncovered at CWL even during baby's peak times for someone else to get in there, and the airport certainly encouraged that. When baby was on the wane, they would have been easy to wipe out of Cardiff, had another operator been so inclined. What stopped this, and in the end did for baby at Cardiff was the massive seasonality and relatively small size of the local market.

The same is true of Jet2 - why should they come to Cardiff? They are doing pretty well from what I gather where they are, and to take a punt on Cardiff - which to many outsiders is seen as a graveyard for routes and airlines - is not something that I would advise them to do... and that's what I do for a living!

But you are bang on the money re the vanity projects, and for warning about the cancerous effect that politicians tend to have on the scene....

TA

[tbi]

Can anyone shed any light on the following please?

I was told yesterday that Easy Jet will be operating the MAH flight on behalf of TCX next summer out of CWL, how true could this be?

[fanrailuk]

tbi

I think this gossip very unlikely to be true as I believe TCX will only utilise seats on EZY flights where they're already based, i.e. BRS.

As for the MAH, it will be operated by TCX on Friday mornings for summer 2013.

PP :ok:

[tbi]

Thank you Fanrailuk

Thought I would ask the question to see how true this was

[mathers_wales_uk]

By making a fake booking to Mahon you can see that the Thomas Cook flight operates

CWL 06:25 MAH 09:50
MAH 10:50 CWL 12:30

This suggest that it is a Cardiff based aircraft also states quite clearly the flight is operated by Thomas Cook Airlines.

Unless Thomas Cook increases the capacity on the Mahon for Summer 2013 or changes it's times and hasn't released/amended it yet then the likelyhood of this happening will be in fact zero.

To my knowledge Thomas Cook are only selling seats on Easyjet schedule flights and are not actually chartering easyjet aircraft.

The one thing I am shocked with however that Thomas Cook have not bought any seats on the Vueling product from Cardiff as they used to with bmibaby before they pulled out.

[Severn]

TCX at CWL - Summer 2013
TCX will be basing 1x A320 at CWL for summer 2013 (same as Summer 2012)

SUMMARY:
Summer 2012:
16x Destinations, 5x Countries
15x weekly flights operated by based aircraft
2x weekly flights operated by a BRS based aircraft operating a w-pattern
1x weekly flight operated by Onur Air

Summer 2013:
13x Destinations, 5x Countries
15x weekly flights operated by based aircraft
1x weekly flight operated by Onur Air


Below I have broken down the 2013 destinations served by TCX own aircraft in comparison to 2012.

Flights per week:
(note: nc= no change from Summer 2012)

SPAIN: 7x weekly (-1)- (8x weekly in Summer 2012)Mainland:
REU: 1x weekly – (nc) (operated by a BRS based aircraft on a w-pattern in Summer 2012)

Canary Islands:
ACE: 1x weekly – (nc)
TFS: 1x weekly –( nc)
FUE: 0 (-1) - (1x weekly in Summer 2012)

Balearic Islands:
PMI: 2x weekly – (nc)
MAH: 1x weekly – (nc)
IBZ: 1x weekly – (nc)
GREEK ISLANDS: 3x weekly – (nc)
ZTH: 1x weekly – (nc)
HER: 1x weekly – (nc)
RHO: 1x weekly – (nc)

CYPRUS: 2x weekly – (nc)
LCA: 1x weekly – (nc)
PFO: 1x weekly – (nc)

TUNISIA: 2x weekly (+1)- (1x weekly in Summer 2012)
NBE: 2x weekly (+1)- (1x weekly flight operated by a BRS based aircraft on a w-pattern in Summer 2012)

TURKEY: 1x weekly (-2)- (3x weekly in Summer 2012)
DLM: 1x weekly – (nc) - (Onur Air also operating 1x weekly on behalf of TCX, same as 2012)
BJV: 0 (-1) - (1x weekly in Summer 2012)
AYT: 0 (-1) - (1x weekly in Summer 2012)


The schedule will look like the below:
Monday:
#1: REU, DLM
Tuesday:
#1: PMI, HER
Wednesday:
#1: NBE, RHO
Thursday:
#1: ZTH, ACE
Friday:
#1: MAH, TFS
Saturday:
#1: PMI, IBZ, NBE
Sunday:
#1: PFO, LCA

[mathers_wales_uk]

Silk Commision report recommends that Long Haul APD is devolved to Wales

You can see Cardiff Airport's response - by clicking here (hhttp://walesairforum.wordpress.com/2012/11/19/cardiff-airport-welcomes-recommendations-from-silk-commission-report/ttp://)

Also another article has been found on future propoals for Cardiff Airport as part of the Gateway Project - view article (hhttp://walesairforum.wordpress.com/2012/11/19/cardiff-has-a-key-role-in-future-of-uk-airports/ttp://)

[fanrailuk]

Very interesting to see what could happen should APD be devolved to Wales, and there's no reason why it shouldn't as steps have been taken in NI to protect long-haul flying, yet I know the reasons were mostly competitive vs Rep of Ireland, Wales has to set a very good business case for this.

Now, even more interesting comments from Bristol CEO on the devolution of APD. Ultimately he is a obviously a little annoyed and has no doubt consulted lawyers regarding EU state aid rules, but how will this sit with the NI assembly should he pursue it? Good news for Wales, but understandably bad news for BRS should it happen.

Airports at odds over Silk backing for air passenger duty devolution (http://t.co/uoVBqxO9)

PP :ok:

[TwinAisle]

has no doubt consulted lawyers regarding EU state aid rules

Bet he won't get far with that. If the tax is varied, that is not a subsidy under the rules.

This is going to get entertaining....

TA

[majorni]

We loose the fly to FUE with TCX, how will fly to FUE them?, we loose a nice destination from Cardiff, cause not one company is flying over, just TCX

[GAZMO]

Coming from NI I certainly welcomed the reduction in long haul services APD to zero. Yes I do believe it was a special case
Two main issues, NI has a land border with ROI and there was a great loss of pax to DUB which had APD of three euro compared to the crazy £60 at BFS. BFS only has one long haul to EWR, daily in summer, five weekly in winter so not a great loss to the Chancellor and the money is taken back from the NI assembly. This drain to DUB was money not going to the UK coffers rather to the ROI

Secondly surely there is the need to overall the APD, especially after the freezing for one year of the EU emissions scheme

Maybe best if APD is scrapped altogether and if the GOvt wants to raise taxes have a general small tax on ALL transport, boats, trains and planes

[EI-BUD]

Gazmo you make a fair point in your post, but I am not convinced that the removal of the APD is such a bonus, if it is the carrot that can attract new routes, namely a flight to Toronto or Orlando or a Boston for that matter that would make it a winner, though in terms of being competitive on price, making the case that Dublin had lower charges may seem clear in principal but the fact that there are so many flights from Dublin means that there may just be many more opportunities to avail of a cheaper fare, there is a core number of passengers on the BFS EWR routes +/- £100k pa. not checked figures for some time, some of these will book early on BFS and get the lowest fares, for the others checking and find more expensive prices, then they will look to Dublin for Price and importantly choice of destination.

Dublin has a nice range of US destinations including JFK and the fact that EI do 1 ticket via aerlingus.com to all over the states often at good prices is another reason why Dublin will draw NI passengers.

Just realised that this is CWL thread and not BFS!!

[mathers_wales_uk]

I'm not sure BRS has anything to worry about as with the Welsh Government track record they will take so long to bring this into fruition that APD tariffs maybe varied in the regions anyway.

A figure that was plucked from one of several news reports which I read stated that only £11m is raised in APD in Wales. The airlines may find Cardiff attractive with the deviation of APD in Wales not only as the level of APD will likely be lower on key routes, but I have a feeling the airlines will not lower their prices and in fact make money their selves out of it.

My opinion is that Welsh politicians do not understand how important lowering APD is and how much it is damaging our local economy. No Welsh appears could be bothered to turn up to the APD debate in the House of Commons on 1st Nov 12

[TwinAisle]

I have a feeling the airlines will not lower their prices and in fact make money their selves out of it.

Yes, that is rather what I am hoping will happen!

No airline is going to look twice at an airport with wafer thin margins; if they can see a way of making a fatter margin, they may look at Cardiff.

Low fares may be fun for the punter, but they are not fun for the airline...

TA

[mathers_wales_uk]

Would you agree TwinAisle that lowering/removing APD is only one step in the equasion as airlines will likely not charge less for the tickets but simlpy make more money from the passenger

The 2nd step would be of course to encourage more viable routes which will hopefully bring some of the passengers back who use other airports for their travel?

You of course are likely to be aware of further factors issues etc

[TwinAisle]

Not quite sure I understood the question....

Anything that makes a better business case for a Cardiff route will help attract an airline to operate it. That boils down to passenger numbers and yields. Dropping APD will be a great help in generating a business case for a new route, certainly - I certainly would not expect a carrier to pass on all, or even any, of the savings to the public, and fatter margins make for more possibilities.

Frankly, that's it. Prove that there is money to be made on a route - or help the airlines prove that for themselves - and they'll come. If that case isn't made, they won't. Simples, as a meerkat might say.

TA

[mathers_wales_uk]

Sorry popped the question in quickly as I was getting ready for work. You did answer my question thank you.

I suppose the other thing we would need to do is somehow encourage the passengers to start using Cardiff once the routes are in place as they have got used to using alternatives at other airports.

[TwinAisle]

Encouraging the passengers is the airline's job, frankly. If they think the passengers are there to encourage, and the fares can be set at a level to get them flying, whereby the airline makes some profit, then the airport is in with a chance. Otherwise.... the abyss.

TA

[Phileas Fogg]

Just as an example, and without bothering to spot check, check out the (all inclusive) fares on Austrian Airlines from LHR to/from KBP, to MOW, to DNK, to pretty much anywhere outside of the EU then compare those fares against Austrian Airlines fares from VIE to/from those same destinations.

The airlines are absorbing the UK taxes and as much as these taxes might leave a sour taste in the mouth the airlines are asborbing them and any suggestion that these state airlines are suddenly to switch from Hounslow to Rhoose Village ..... Well!!!!! :)

[TwinAisle]

Austrian is not state owned, but let that pass.

The point is that SOMEONE is paying the tax; it is either being passed on to the customer (result - fewer passengers) or the airline is absorbing it (result - less revenue). Either way, if the tax could be reduced, it is a win/win. Whether that is enough of a win/win to encourage an operator to start a flight to CWL in the current climate? Jury is out. I would bet that some operators may well switch services out of BHX and BRS - particularly the IT companies...

TA

[mathers_wales_uk]

Is this a sign that Bristol Airport is really concerned over Air Passenger Duty being devovled? Why should Cardiff Airport help their competitors?

Cardiff and Bristol airports ‘work together on tax’ call - click to view article (http://walesairforum.wordpress.com/2012/11/21/cardiff-and-bristol-airports-work-together-on-tax-call/)

[Fairdealfrank]

This is nonsense, what is a "London" airport? You'd never see a quicker rebranding of airport names if this idea was taken seriously!

In the article, James Gore of Bristol airport is quoted as saying "... The majority of London airports are operating at capacity."

That's "bull" isn't it? In the entire UK only LHR is at capacity all the time and LGW at some peak times.

No, the way forward with APD is either a low flat rate as in Ireland, or better still, scrap it entirely as in Denmark and the Netherlands.

[mathers_wales_uk]

Basically Bristol Airport are thinking of all reasons why the devolvement of APD should not be given to the Welsh Government.

Basically for the first time in a very long time Bristol Airport seem to be concerened. And they should be as this will have an impact if certain routes are also given variable rates.

As TwinAisle states IT operators at Bristol & Birmingham may switch capacity to Cardiff Airport to make more money. It may effect Thomson longhaul from Bristol as we know passengers are willing to travel and may also impact any future plans for any future longhaul at Bristol.

I am concerned however that the Welsh Government may drag their heels in acting upon these recomendations and by that time we may see variable APD amongst regional airports.

This is another article found today - Airport bosses criticise unfair tax help for rival (http://walesairforum.wordpress.com/2012/11/22/airport-bosses-criticise-unfair-tax-help-for-rival/)

[AirGuru]

There is nothing BRS can do about this in all honesty. The devolving of tax reducing powers is nothing to do with law/jurisdictions etc, just a simple fact of devolving Wales from Westminster for a more local approach, to help solve local problems.

We could argue that BRS has distorted the South Wales market over the last decade with EZY and FR, attracting so many over the bridge, so they cannot moan about CWL potentially being more attractive to long haul operators. But, obviously, they are going to moan, because at the end of the day they are potentially losing business. Simple, stop incentivising South Wales agents to switch sell BRS over CWL, to make it a fair playing field !

[TwinAisle]

We could argue that BRS has distorted the South Wales market over the last decade with EZY and FR, attracting so many over the bridge

You might be able to, I can't. Bristol has not distorted any markets; it has just outperformed its neighbours by dint of having a more affluent population, and larger catchment. That's not market distortion.

I'm not at all sure that Bristol Airport has incentivised agents not to sell Cardiff. At the end of the day, the airport does not sell seats, or holidays. If the airlines are doing any differential pricing, that is an issue for them.

Oh, and you'll find that devolution of tax powers certainly is a legal matter; it will almost certainly need an Act of Parliament...

TA

[yeo valley]

well air guru. hope you have somtthing to back up in what you said in youre last post. with comments like that on here it could be considered as libel. think you should consider what you post on here before you submit post.its been a long day being it thanksgiving here.

[ILS32]

I have been reading this thread with interest over the past few months.It is similar to some other regional airport threads.The hope that things can change to stem the steady decline of passenger numbers. The latest hope is that APD reduction will be the White Knight riding to the rescue.The question that needs to be asked is who or where are these long haul airlines waiting to come to Cardiff to transport the locals across the oceans to distant lands.Cardiff Airport cannot get the short haul airlines to use the airport hence the steady decline in passenger numbers through the terminal.Do you honestly believe that APD reduction will be enough to entice long haul airlines to use Cardiff even if the Welsh Assembly do get the powers to vary the APD? I hope that I am proved wrong but I believe a lot of people are going to be disappointed.

[TwinAisle]

Yeo Valley - the only thing I'd take issue with in your post is that the potential offence by AG is libel, not slander....

ILS32 - the answer to your question about who the long haul carriers are that will consider a move to come to Cardiff if Welsh APD is varied is simple - pretty much all of them from BRS and BHX. IT is a very different game to scheduled.

TA

[bycrewlgw]

Surely if ADP is devolved to Wales then BRS would be able to apply for a similar set up as BFS? I mean BFS has no or little ADP added to its longhaul flights due to the proximity of DUB so surely a precedent has now been set for BRS should Wales get the power to lower or scrap it?

[TwinAisle]

An interesting point, BY.

I can well imagine Bristol would argue that one; at the very least, that could be a nail in APD's coffin. Here's hoping....

TA

[birdscarer]

As I see it, Bristol has every right to get annoyed with this. Cardiff Airport has failed due to systematic poor management, poor investment and a limited catchment area. Forget diluted borders....this is a private company we're talking about that is in direct competition with Bristol - and they could be about to get a significant tax break as a reward for their incompetence.

Bristol Airprot (and BHX for that matter) has generated countless millions for the whole area's economy (Wales included) by capitalising on being successful, yet they would be heavily penalised in all of this - thats a kick in the teeth for their good management and investment!

To put it another way, would the Welsh Assembley also reduce taxes for Tesco, as the Sainsburys up the road is doing that much better?? Its absolute tosh, and an insult to anyone that pays their share of tax to the state.

[bcn_boy]

BRS will not be heavily penalised. This is only long haul APD that would in reality only affect their Cancun and Orlando services. As for DUB -BFS, the arguement was different as the tax goes into a different pot in a different nation. Therefore the precedent is much different.

[Phileas Fogg]

bcn_boy,

It's not only long haul, it's non EU, not sure how the likes of Norway and Switzerland fair on this one, but it might also impact upon BRS's KLM, Air France etc. long haul feeder services where if the punter is connecting in less than 24 hours then 'rip off' APD applies.

However ... as has been said many a time, BRS and CWL have two totally different catchments and with regards to BHX ... are the likes of KLM, Air France, Sabena, Swiss, SAS, Lufthansa etc. likely to relocate their services from BHX to CWL? ... Never in a hundred years!

[mathers_wales_uk]

I wouldn't say relocation Phileas however KLM may switch some capacity but may not be segnificant. What TwinAisle has suggested is when it comes to the IT market it's a totally different kettle of fish.

Thomson was once very pro CWL however seemed to be that when the Thomson / First Choice merger took place there was a shift in focus and longhaul also switched to BRS. Of course i'm unsure if this was simply a coincidence.

If an airline could make over £10,000 (rough guess) additional a flight from CWL on longhaul per flight after scrapping apd in Wales wouldn't they consider a switch? Passengers travel a long way by car or transport to travel on longhaul IT flights.

A recent HM Revenue & Customs report has suggested that BRS could lose 25% and 30% passengers as a result of the devolving of APD to Wales. It also suggests that by 2020 Cardiff Airport may have 3.4 million passengers. But the same report also suggests that Cardiff Airport only handles 0.5m passengers per year so the accuracy of the report could be questioned. (But Bristol CEO is currently quoting these figures and it could take up to 5 years to come into force)

[Phileas Fogg]

Mathers,

From personal experience I can tell you that BHX's catchment area spreads as far east as 'Rushden & Diamonds', as far north as mid point to MAN, covers mid Wales also and mid point to BRS and, I guess, LHR.

When I was living in Rushden and then Telford and then Coalbrookdale the likes of KLM, Swiss, Lufty, Frog Air and SAS were attracting my business from/to Brum ... go figure what chance they'd have of attracting my business from/to CWL?

Brum, as far as aviation is concerned anyway, is England & Wales third city and that's not about to change anytime soon.

And please don't think that I'm anti CWL, I worked at CWL in the 80/90's and I only sold my CF62 postcode house last year.

[mathers_wales_uk]

Nobody really knows what will happen Phileas and the likelyhood of this happening in a quick enough time fram for Cardiff Airport to get the advantage before possibly regional variances of APD will be slim.

Aviation group calls for air passenger duty to be devolved to Wales sooner rather than later - click to read article (http://walesairforum.wordpress.com/2012/11/25/aviation-group-calls-for-air-passenger-duty-to-be-devolved-to-wales-sooner-rather-than-later/)

[Phileas Fogg]

And which 'Aviation group' would that be Mathers or are we all supposed to pretend that we are stupid and it is not a bunch of 'Reggie Spotters' that you are personally involved with?

[MANFlyer]

mathers_wales_uk are you sponsored for how many links you can post on here to that Welsh plane spotters board ?

[sunday8pm]

There's so much discussion that just goes round in circles. Isn't the hard truth that CWL is in the wrong place for an airport of the size it wants to be. If BRS were to go through harder times, I'm not convinced that much of the business wouldn't end up at BHX.

[WALES-TAG-TOP]

I notice a few of these in the skys, now the nights are darker. Most seem to travel West to East along the channel (Bristol), not that far from airport (CWL), surely a jet engine ingesting one on take off/landing could cause problems? Technically, they are Airbornre F.O.D.?

Article/link from BBC Wales.
BBC News - Sky lanterns ban from Cardiff council land considered (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-20728056)

[planenut321]

Good to see a 5% growth at CWL for November 2012. First time in a few years (excluding air lift months). Increases on several core routes too... Just got to keep it that way now... :bored:

[Ye Olde Pilot]

Interesting move here with the BBC reporting the following;

Cardiff Airport: Welsh government plan to buy from TBI
The Welsh government wants to buy Cardiff airport from its current owners, the First Minister has said.

Carwyn Jones announced they had reached an agreement with owners TBI and would be working towards a purchase over the next few months.

The airport would be run on a commercial basis by an independent operator on behalf of the government.

It will not receive subsidies and and should "demonstrate a return to the taxpayer", Mr Jones said.

[Barling Magna]

BBC News - Cardiff Airport: Welsh government plan to buy from TBI (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-20769091)

[TwinAisle]

So a group of failed politicians, who have had nothing positive to say about the airport or its managers for years, and who have presided over the decline of the local economy, are going, without any experience in running anything more complex than a whelk stand or a bath, to appoint the right group of people to turn the failing airport around and 'make a return'?

Coupled to the fact that they cannot, once it is in private hands, give any financial assistance to anyone, otherwise the folks at BRS and BHX will cry foul.

It'll be a housing estate by next Christmas.

Does any Welsh taxpayer think this is even remotely a sensible use of public funds?

TA

[planenut321]

I agree with you TA... how is this going to make the situation any better?

I couldn't believe it when I read it this morning, a task force is set-up which has said nothing and achieved nothing since its creation... all of a sudden the airport will be nationalised. How will this help? What can you do differently? One thing that has been said is that there will be NO... that is NO... subsidies given to airlines... what about VY? What about NM? Surely they will be adversely affected by this! A lick of paint and a couple of flower pots isn't going to make Emirates announce DBX or Delta announce NYC. The owner of the airport only has limited influence on the performance of an airport with the market being the determining factor. Flights to Bristol are £200 cheaper but Cardiff Airport has nice new seats in the waiting area... it isn't going to change anything.

Also saw that CJ announced this via Twitter. Wow... professional. This is not the right way to do it at all. He also annouced that SH routes will be increased in the short term with LH routes introduced later. AMS/CDG/DUB can't stay stabilse for more than 3 months in a row this is what is needed to be addressed! Sort out what we have, don't just plow money into more of everything if people aren't using what is already there!

[CheekyVisual]

Nationalisation is always the answer British Steel, British Rail, British Leyland, The National Coal Board, The Soviet Union, etc.. all managed to be brilliant and ended well. Mmmmm.

I didn't come here to give a lecture on communism but if the Ts & Cs for the nationalised airline they will need to operate all these new services are in line with those for Welsh government and assembly members I'm available.

The current owners have badly managed the airport but it is not entirely their fault that no one seems to be able to make a profit at CWL in the bleak times we are now in. CWL is a marginal destination and always has been. Nothing has really changed. Don't harp about BRS it is a totally different scenario. It is far more about how the local economies have developed over the last 20 years than how the actual airports have developed.

What the politicians should have done was build a road (a good one), build a railway (a proper one) and help the commercial owners build a new terminal (one that works). I note they are still not saying they will do any of those very basic things. Even these won't solve the problem but would put CWL in a good place when things do finally improve. They can't do any of those things as they don't have the political will power (how long has the road been talked about) or more importantly the MONEY !!!!!!

The reasons CWL isn't BRS won't change with a change of owner. May be the politicians should stick to trying to fix the country. Buying the airport to increase it's utilisation is like trying to fix a car by putting in a flash new radio when it needs a new engine !

As Bill Clinton rightly said - "It's the economy stupid". and he's still right everytime I quote him.

[Ye Olde Pilot]

I've got a soft spot for EGFF having learnt to fly there 30 plus years ago.

However it's the wrong airport in the wrong location.

It would have made sense to close Cardiff and Bristol and build a new terminal etc at Filton. Good transport links and the infrastructure in place.

Cardiff will never be more than a bucket and spade airport.

[Phileas Fogg]

Plaid Cymru welcomed the announcement and said the airport needed to be a "shopfront" for Wales

It's located beside the coast in the bottom south-east corner of Wales, most travellers to Wales, south, mid and north will never get to see the "shopfront" because it's totally off the beaten tracks.

Mr Jones said: "Over the past 12 months, I have repeatedly emphasised the importance to Wales of a dynamic international gateway airport in Cardiff.

So they're going to move the airport to "in Cardiff" are they?

[ILS25]

It's good to see a bit of ambition in my opinion. I'm not saying it will work but it could if managed correctly. Abertis have almost ran it into the ground, BFS is heading the same way.