CFI constantly keeping hands and feet on controls

[Plasmech]

I have about 13 hours of PPL training now. The training has gone well and my CFI and I are already starting to talk about the first solo...it's coming. Point being, I am a competent pre-solo *student*.

My CFI constantly keeps his hands on his yoke and his feet on the rudder pedals. This is during ALL phases of flight, yes even, believe it or not, including cruise through smooth air. I have politely asked him several times at this point to please come off the controls so that I can not only be certain that I am controlling the aircraft properly without his input but also because I basically have to drag his feet through rudder movement. Often I will feel a very un-natural resistance in both the pedals and the yoke. The few times he has come off the controls at my request, the pedals feel a LOT better, I mean a ton, and the yoke feels even better still.

I understand that it would be uncomfortable for him to not rest his feet on the rudder pedals but at the same time, I am not confident that every control input is mine and without that confidence, I am worrying about solo.

He swears that he is not inputting anything but, for example, during cruise through turbulent air, I feel like I am basically fighting his inputs with my own, as no two brains work exactly alike...he and I are not two coupled auto-pilots.

I understand that during short final he should be at-the-ready on the controls but during the "easy" phases of flight it it getting to be, quite honestly, very annoying. The last time I asked him nicely to please not rest on the controls he got a bit huffy.

At this point in my training, I really want him to be there for verbal commands / syllabus work, suggestions, feedback, and for situations that I am not prepared to handle, which are solely limited to strong crosswind landings at this point (which we generally avoid anyway). Obviously I also would need him in an emergency as well.


How does a student handle a situation like this? I have mentioned it so many times at this point that it's getting really old to him. I am really afraid that when I solo things will be so different without his constant resistance felt on the controls that I will be in for a nasty surprise. How do I know that I am "good" or "acceptable" rather at flying the aircraft and not him?

Has anybody else experienced this? Again I understand that the yoke is a nice hand rest and the pedals are the most comfortable place to rest the feet but I am not paying him to allow me to drag his hands and feet through the sky. The cost of each flight is astronomical, especially after the artificial/corrupt jack in insurance rates post 9/11.

I guess this really boils down to a safety issue ultimately: I just can't be CERTAIN that I, by myself, can fly properly.

This has really started to frustrate me.

[A and C]

The answer is simple, get a new instructor.

[Neptunus Rex]

The poor fellow is to be pitied. He is quite clearly so under-confident and anally retentive that he should not be instructing. Get a better one.

Your point about not being sure if your control inputs are having the desired effect is both perceptive and correct.

[blagger]

Simply unforgiveable in an instructor - change now!

[Pilot DAR]

Yup, change instructors. My (non-instructor) opinion is that the only times your instructor should be in contact with the controls, is when the situation is life threatening, potentially airplane damaging, he is demonstrating a technique, or, you have asked him to.

With a few exceptions, your instructor should be compotent enough to regain control of the aircraft from hands off, in a moment or two, after you have demonstrated that you cannot. Aside from demonstrating technique, he should be talking you keep you out of trouble, and only after that has not worked, and as a last resort, flying to get you out of trouble.

In fairness to both of you, directly ask him next time: "Am I really so poor a pilot that you need to also retain control of the aircraft for our safety?". His answer to that question, will tell you if you should fly with him again. Either you're a good pilot, and he should let go 98% of the time, or, you are a poor pilot - isn't he the one who trained you thus far?

Either answer ends up that you probably need a new instructor. Look for one with grey hair- they're often your best choice!

When I fly a helicopter with a pilot with whom I have never before flown, I'm watching with interest the phases of flight where their hands go from their lap, to "poised" to grab control. After a landing or two, and some hovering, their hands ususally remain on their laps. I did have some particularly tricky "toe in + confined area" flying, where my mentor said "I have to keep my hands close, 'cause things can go bad really fast". "Thanks, I appreciate that!". He never did touch the controls....

[FlyingKiwi_73]

I had the same issue, although not the CFI (which really surprises me)
your best bet is to get a coffee in a breifing room and ask him why, if he says he deosn't think your ready thats ok,.. fly with another instructor for a few hops and see if they feel differently.

I explained to my instructor that i could not fell 'my' control inputs properly and it made landing difficult, ergo i made a hash of it.. and this leads to the instructor thinking i'm no good.

A quiet sensible adult chat with out demanding a new instructor is usually worth it, if he still doesn't change talk to the co-ordinator/admin person and ask them to roster you will some one else.

It is your $$ but a cool head pays dividends!

I am surprised this is the CFI, mine used to fold his arms and pretend to look at the view

[jollyrog]

Ask him if he's an examiner too. If affirmative, ask him if he intends to manipulate the controls during your skills test.

If the answer is yes, tell him you're ready for test now :ok:

[Plasmech]

Wow talk about everybody being on the same page. Looks like there really is no debate on this one.

Like someone mentioned, IF my flying IS that bad that he feels he needs constant input, it is time to TELL me. I will not be upset of offended. In fact I will respect him a lot more. The cockpit is not a place to be afraid of hurting someone's feelings.

[Cows getting bigger]

Generally speaking, my hands are off the controls. The only time they are 'hovering' is during stalls and the very final stages of landing (in this case, to stop the student pilot pushing forward on the yoke/stick).

Rudder is a little different, not least due to the ergonomics of the smaller training aircraft (if your feet aren't covering the pedals your knees will be restricting the yoke). Consequently, there are times where a student pilot does something with the rudder that you're not expecting and your feet will arrest any travel.

As for having his hands on the controls at all times, how on earth is the instructor meant to whack you with a ruler in such a scenario? :)

[kevmusic]

I too have had this issue, and I completely understand your frustration, Plasmech. I did change instructors! - although he wasn't the CFI. (How the hell did your guy get to be CFI? :confused:)

There is a deliberate protocol set up for this - the "you have control/I have control" dialogue, which is designed purely to establish which one person is in control.

Not sure talking to your instructor will do any good - it sounds like he does this sort of thing out of habit.

Good luck!

[sycamore]

He`s American; they are all called `CFI`,certified flight instructor, NOT Chief.,..

[24Carrot]

I wouldn't just change instructor without talking to him first. Pilot DAR suggested a good question.

Is it possible he isn't doing it?

... for example, during cruise through turbulent air, I feel like I am basically fighting his inputs with my own, ...


It may be just the plane that is giving you feedback on the controls. A strong gust catching one wing more than the other can feel like a giant just grabbed the controls.

Just 2c worth, I wasn't there!

[Lister Noble]

Ask him to visibly let go of the yoke/stick and if possible not touch the pedals,you will soon know if it is you or him.
I'm sorry but it just might be you:)

[FlyingForFun]

As an instructor, I'd say Cows Getting Bigger has it about right. My arms are usually folded during flight, or holding my kneeboard, chart, etc. if I'm using them. But I'm always near the controls for the landing - elevators and rudders mainly, to protect the nosewheel if you try to stuff it into the ground, and to straighten the nose if your PPL instructor hasn't taught you to land in a crosswind before you come to me to do your CPL (very common!). And my feet are always near the rudders for a fully-developed stall.

Generally, the "I have control" protocol is strictly adhered to - although if you're about to stuff the nose into the ground, I may have to do something about it fairly quickly, without having time to formally take control, in which case I'll make sure you know what I've done and why straight after, and I'll also make it clear whether I'm keeping control or giving it back to you. (This is rare for me now that I teach CPL and IR students, but not uncommon in PPL training. There are some people who will insist this should never happen, that the instructor should never take control without formally going through the "I have control" protocol... in my opinion, these people do not live in the real world of instructing students of various abilities!)

Slightly off the original question, Pilot DAR mentions some other times instructors may take control, such as for demonstrating things... but he's missed out one really important one: to let you think. After a student has performed an exercise incorrectly, I'll often take control while de-briefing the exercise. This allows the student to listen to what I'm saying, think about it, and then take back control and repeat the exercise correctly.

Good luck!

FFF
----------

[AfricanEagle]

They say a good instructor can judge a student from day one by the way he climbs into the aircraft. A plain vanilla PPL with a bit of experience can also judge an instructor by the times he puts his hands on the yoke.

The best are those that look outside, hands in lap, and every now and then make you feel like a sh1t pilot with a simple sentence.

During my taildragger rating (Piper cub) I couldn't get the landings right. Instructor was always talking to me and I never knew if I was in control or not. On a downwind I asked him to shut up and not touch anything. He said okay and I pulled off a perfect whispered landing. His only comment was F@ck @ff and he signed my licence.
He has now become a highly respected examiner and good friend :)

Tell your instructor straight or ask for a change.

[3 Point]

As an instructor I have to say I agree with the opinions above. That said, there are times when you need to be ready to take it at very short notice so there are times when "hovering" near the controls is reasonable.

This guy is obviously lacking confidence in his own ability as a pilot. I'd talk to him but, if there was not an immediate and sustained improvement I'd look for a new instructor.

Happy landings

3 point

[BackPacker]

I'm not an instructor, but even when I take passengers flying and I give them control, I take my hands off the controls. I fold my arms, hold my hands up in the air or anything to show them that they are controlling the aircraft.

I do keep my feet on the rudder though, so that I can make slight corrections. But that's more because my passengers aren't briefed on the function of the rudder, just the stick/yoke. And some of my passengers are not old/tall enough to reach the rudder pedals anyway.

Last week I was flying a 9-year old handicapped child. In the cruise I gave him control and he did fine. Not great, but good enough. After about five minutes he got underconfident or something like that, and wanted to pass control back to me. I flatly refused and even when he let go of the stick I simply folded my arms and gave the spiel about "I'm not flying and neither are you. So what do you think will happen now?" In the end, with a bit of persuasion, he managed to fly the whole 25 minute flight. It was a great confidence booster: If his ears wouldn't have been in the way his smile would've stretched all around his head.

(Of course he didn't know that an aircraft that is properly trimmed can be flown with very light touches of the rudder alone.)

An instructor that keeps his hands on the controls during all phases of flight should never have gotten throught the FI course, as far as I'm concerned. Sure, there are a few phases of flight where very quick reactions may be needed to save the day. In those situations the instructors hands should be at, or at the very least, near the controls. But most of the time you've got at least three seconds before a gross mishandling of the student will lead to an unrecoverable situation. And in most cases, the student will correct himself within those three seconds.

[Whopity]

I understand that during short final he should be at-the-ready on the controls Nonsense; if the student is flying the aircraft the instructor should have no input. An instructor should know what is going to happen next by simply watching the student and what the aircraft is doing. It only takes a fraction of a second to raise your hands from your lap to the controls. This instructor obviously has no idea how to teach; one of the consequences of not having proper instructor courses.

[Pilot DAR]

they are all called `CFI`,certified flight instructor,

So, would that mean that an "FI" would be an instructor who is not certified?

one really important one: to let you think. After a student has performed an exercise incorrectly

While not disagreeing with FFF, particularly in regard of more primary student pilots, I will also advance the notion that as a more mature pilot, you're going to botch something, and have to think your way through the correction for the situation, and you won't have the luxury of another pilot to relieve you. I have certainly felt overwhelmed, and imagined that in a few moments I would ask my mentor pilot to take it for a minute, to have him say "No". Then you really have to gather yourself together! I would agree that this would not be the best for a newer student though...

I recall that an instructor I knew (though not well) turned up one day at the airport, with a beautiful PA 18. It had been a long time since I'd flown tailwheel, so I asked if he'd let me fly a few circuits to refresh myself. "sure", he said. "Shall I sit in the front, or the back?". "Um, you take the front". With that, I climbed in to the front. I flew a few circuits to my satisfaction and returned. It was only when I got out, that I noticed that there were no controls in the back.

The instructor's hands "hovering" may be a little disheartening for the student, but the stident is flying. If the instructor's hands are evidently in contact with the controls, situation back to my original reply.

the instructor should never take control without formally going through the "I have control" protocol... in my opinion, these people do not live in the real world of instructing students of various abilities!)


Haha, it's not just instructors. A few times I have very quickly taken control away from a "pilot", in what had now become a dire circumstance, becasue I'd let it go way too far, thinking he would notice and correct. I incurred some wrath for this in another thread not too long ago, but I'm here, and no bent metal. Now, I try to be more proactive, earlier on; "....are you noticing xxxxx?". Though it happily remains a very rare occurrance for me....

I have a licensed pilot freind who not only was in a moderate accident, but was also the target of enforcement action. He made no attempt to take over, as it was not his plane. It turned out the "pilot" owner did not have a valid license. My friend became the pilot by default, and was charged.

Back to the topic for Plasmech, have a talk to your instructor....

[Big Pistons Forever]

While not disagreeing with FFF, particularly in regard of more primary student pilots, I will also advance the notion that as a more mature pilot, you're going to botch something, and have to think your way through the correction for the situation, and you won't have the luxury of another pilot to relieve you. I have certainly felt overwhelmed, and imagined that in a few moments I would ask my mentor pilot to take it for a minute, to have him say "No". Then you really have to gather yourself together! I would agree that this would not be the best for a newer student though...



I have done quite a bit of instructing and the reality is there is no part of a flight where there is not time to take your hands off your lap and take control and for 98% this does not even have to be a particualarly hurried or sudden motion. There is absolutely NO reason for your instructor have his hands on the controls for any significant part of the flight. If this is the case it is not normal and you need a new instructor now.

As for FFF's comments, IMO he is absolutely spot on. At the presolo level the ability to fly and process the explanation of the instructor at the same time is very limited. It can be very effective to momentarily take control while you explain things and this can then be backed up by providing a short demonstration.

[Whopity]

So, would that mean that an "FI" would be an instructor who is not certified?
Perfectly true, in the UK if you had been "Certified" you would not be allowed to instruct, or even drive a car for that matter!

[patowalker]

Better to be certified than sectioned. :)

[Johnm]

Change your instructor, I don't even do that when I let passengers have a go from the right hand seat.

Hover really close by all means, but hands off when the student (or passenger) is flying.

[austerwobbler]

Have a quiet word with one of his other students to see if he is doing the same with them as well. ;)
Austerwobbler

[flyingflea]

Only happened to me once during a check ride with an unfamiliar instructor/examiner. He was about 2 hours late for the check and we were losing the light so we jumped in and I taxied out..........the rudder pedals were as heavy as hell and pulling to one side. As we taxied to the (grass) runway, I politely asked him to get his ruddy feet off the pedals and he said "not guilty"
.....After I had changed the flat tyre with the help of a couple of the club instructors, we set off again with me trying to convince the examiner that I really had checked the tyres during the preflight but it must of got a punture during the 2 hour wait for him to turn up....
Anyway check flight passed.

[IO540]

Some instructors are good and some are not good.

I had one instructor who was always grabbing the controls. He was also the one with an "interesting" attitude to serious defects like broken/bare wires under the cowling which could have caused a fuel fire had there been a leak.

I took a walk to another school but he's still there 10 years later.

One has to remember that flying instructors don't go to some kind of 2 year teacher training college... and we all know that many school teachers are crap despite doing exactly that.

[S-Works]

I would guess possibly an inexperienced Instructor? I usually find that the low houred inexperienced Instructors have a tendancy to hover a little too closely to the controls. As they become more experienced and learnt to interpret better what the student AND the aircraft are doing they learn to relax more. Eventually they get into the method that the rest of us tend to use of sitting feet off and arms folded or holding a map etc but being in tune to what is happening.

This is an unfortunate side effect of mking our least experienced pilots the front line of new pilot training. Just remember we all started somewhere!!

If it really bothers you then talk it through with the Instructor. If that does not work then you probably need to consider a change of Instructor. But often you will be amazed how a simple conversation can change things.

[ShyTorque]

During my basic rotary course I flew with an RAF helicopter instructor who used to do this, especially during engine off landings. I often felt he was doing all the flying so one day I let him do it all. I followed him through rather than the other way round.

It was a bumpier landing than I had done on the previous one but he said it was perfect. :rolleyes:

I told him he had done the landing and his face was a picture when he realised that I was being serious. Thankfully I was given someone more confident to fly with shortly afterwards.

[airpolice]

The best are those that look outside, hands in lap, and every now and then make you feel like a sh1t pilot with a simple sentence.


How true!

I know one who is great at that.