Questions about Circling approach

[airborneforever]

Greetings folks.
I have a few questions to put to you guys about a circling approach. Please let me lay out the situation and ask the questions later.
A/c- B737 NG, cat C in our side of the woods.
Airfield: Dual use(defense/civil) atc by the airforce.
route approaches the VOR at 257 inbound, rwy 23/05 orientation 225/045.
app in question VOR DME 23. rwy elev 710', msa 2500'
straight in minima given for CAT A and B aircraft. No minima for CAT C and D aircraft. however approach is authorized for circling approach and minima is given(1360' and 2400m)
from the arrival route there is an arc approach with inbound course of 208, with faf at 5 odd dme for a 2.95 glideslope.
a lot of captains read this is as circling only for 05 and say they will go overhead and then do the approach or that they will conduct a visual, atc being airforce, let us descend to a 100' above msa which is 2600'. then they let us turn rigth and come in on an inbound track for the rwy, get visual and then descend below 2600.
so these are the three methods i have seen being done.
now my contention is why cant we do the approach and descend down to our circling minima, continue inbound till MAP which is overhead, if we see the runway, maneuvre and land on 23 or if we see it late conduct the circling procedure and land on 23.
as far as i see it and what i was taught in flight school, a circling approach is established when an approach is not available for the runway, in this case 05, or there are exceptional descent or obstructional problem, this i just confirmed from the jepps.
so i would guess that the straight in isnt there for 23 because of the widely different inbound tracks, rwy orientation at 225 vs inbound track of 208 and the vor/dme facility being a bit far from the rwy.
so what do you think?
isnt an vor dme app to 23 possible down to circling minima and then if we spot the runway in time go ahead and land on 23 otherwise continue till overhead, get visual and circle to land on 23.
oh and PAR approaches arent authorized for the past few weeks, temporarily.
can you give any reference to any text or examples from company ops manuals because this is a grey area here.

[BOAC]

af - not sure I understood some of that!

1) "our side of the woods"- we need to know where

2) which airfield, or post charts

[SNS3Guppy]

straight in minima given for CAT A and B aircraft. No minima for CAT C and D aircraft. however approach is authorized for circling approach and minima is given(1360' and 2400m)

Do you mean that no category C or D straight-in minimums are provided, but category C and D circling minimums are provided? Your information isn't precise.

Your explanation isn't clear, but you appear to be asking if you can fly the approach to runway 23 and proceed visually if you have the runway in sight. Yes, you may.

If you're flying the procedure to circling minimums and have the runway in sight by the MAP, you can circle to land on that runway. Absence of circling minimums don't preclude a straight-in if you have the runway in sight in time to get aligned and fly straight-in.

The procedure you describe is oriented with runway 23, and you appear to be asking about landing on 23. Presumably you're asking about a Runway 23 procedure.

If you elect to go visual and circle to land, once you descend below the circling MDA, terrain and obstacle separation is all on you.

Straight-in minimums for your category of aircraft may not be available due to course alignment and the ability to get aligned; if you can see the runway and assure terrain separation visually, then you can fly straight in, even though the minimums aren't published; those straight-in minimums are for the instrument portion of the procedure, and are there to allow you to get established with the runway center line, and keep you clear of obstacles in the process. Once you can assure your own separation visually, you can proceed to the runway so long as you have the necessary visual references in sight.

So long as the procedure doesn't prohibit circling to runway 5, you can do that, as well. Bear in mind that the course alignment and lack of straight-in minimums for runway 23 may indicate that obstacles or terrain may be a factor when descending below circling minimums. Also bear in mind that circling minimums are intended to protect you while circling to a runway and until within 30 degrees of course alignment while circling, while remaining within the circling limits for your category of aircraft. Pay attention to any procedure notes which may offer cautions about which way you can turn, or nearby obstacles or terrain, if you intend to fly to the map then circle back to land on the same runway.

The circling numbers for your procedure are intended to allow you to orient yourself, using higher minimums than available for a straight-in landing(which means being farther from the runway while getting oriented). In other words, circling doesn't have to be an overhead circle back to land; if you have to scoot over to get aligned with the runway to land, then that may be circling, and that's why you have circling minimums applicable to that runway. Obviously if you're going to runway 5, assuming no procedural notes denying applicability to runway 5, then you're going to need to maintain circling minimums until required to go lower and within 30 degrees of runway alignment at the approach end of 5.

You appear to have said that captains with whom you're flying are of the opinion that lack of straight-in minimums for runway 23 means that you can't land on runway 23 using that procedure. That's incorrect. You can, but you've got to have the necessary visual references in sight before leaving the circling MDA. If you can get them in sight and assume your own terrain and obstacle separation upon leaving MDA with the runway environment in sight, then absence of circling minimums doens't preclude you from landing straight in.

Hopefully Aterpster is lurking out there somewhere with more detail for you, or corrections for me (as is often the case).

[airborneforever]

thanks guys,
the airfield is jodhpur in india.
no cat c or d minima specified for rwy 23 vor dme straight in approaches.
yes, i do mean a landing on rwy 23 after the vor dme approach from arrival route.
waiting for more comments.
regards

[BOAC]

af - no cat c or d minima specified for rwy 23 vor dme straight in approaches. - you may wish to visit this thread http://www.pprune.org/questions/430046-lanzarote-ace-vor-rwy-21-a.html.

I'll look up the chart when I have time. Is it TERPS or PANSOPS?

[airborneforever]

its neither,
its an airforce chart, drawn by hand and then cyclostyled.
:ugh:

[Shell Management]

In commercial air transport circling approaches are exceptionally high risk as any competently devised safety case will identifiy.

[galaxy flyer]

Airborneforever

If your airline is operating with hand drawn charts of dubious origin, you may not be airborne forever. If the approach is drawn for Cat A and Cat B only, you cannot even use it in the B737, VFR ONLY. Jepp does not have airport, so no further assistance.

[airborneforever]

well.....
they arent dubious, just hand drawn.
and they are airforce charts, its a bit different, down here.
all airlines go there, foreign militaries also.
and they have circling minima provided for cat c aircraft, so i am pretty sure that we can do the approach as opposed to your view point.
but, hey, thanks for taking the trouble to reply.
happy landings.

[FlightPathOBN]

wow...many issues here..from a liability and design perspective.
While you can certainly bush-pilot the 37...the lack of an approach doesnt necessarily mean it cant be done, it just hasnt yet. Circling with a straight in as you describe is not a problem...is there lighting, etc?

With all of the activity that you state, can you ask the ANSP to generate a procedure? It would benefit both military and commercial flight.

Your airline can always contract an outside party for a procedure design...I am partial to this one... http://operationsbasednavigation.com/ :E

[airborneforever]

friends, there is a procedure.
it is followed by everyone, its a new airfield for our aircraft/ company and hence the confusion about what to do.
as far as i see it, the charts are pretty easy to decipher and understand,
come in off the route, do the arc approach, start descending to circling minima, once visual and able to make an approach, continue, otherwise keep on proceeding inbound, get visual and then go and cCTL for 23 if its too late to maneuvre for 23 straight in.
i wanted to confirm that what i thought was correct and whether there were any specific examples in the world where this was the norm, as one of the above posts mentioned.
but i was also looking at maybe some JAR's or FAR's which might be a bit more specific!
any help?

and thanks once again all you guys to take the time out for this

P.S. Approach charts for defense airfields in india arent available with Jepps or any other source as a matter of security. :ugh: its not as if the enemy is going to shoot an approach at your airfield!!!!!:E

[safetypee]

Circling Approach. (www.skybrary.aero/bookshelf/books/1486.pdf)

An interesting discussion paper with safety in mind.

[BOAC]

sp - thanks for that link - a well studied and well presented paper. I think the recs are excellent.

I remain convinced that 90% of the 'problems' we face in circling are compounded by:

1) The small Terps 'safety area'
2) The 'death' of visual circuit skills and the 'fear ' of not flying some sort of 'needle-based' approach. I have watched the degredation and unwillingness for visual approaches degenerate rapidly over my years in seats.
3) As pointed out in the paper, the confusion over how to do it.

On balance I think the ideas to generate as many 'straight-in approaches as possible using the technology available now PLUS categorising all circling airports as Cat C are spot on.

I also would like to see some effort to brief and fly a visual approach become more commonplace where airfield and weather permit. This needs to be led by Captains who themselves are easy with visual approaches - round in a closed loop we go? The comments I have heard from high-time F/Os such as 'I have never seen anyone else fly a visual' are telling. Opting for a 15 mile final coupled ILS when visual from 10 miles upwind...................????