So what do people think of the new Garmin avionics?

[IO540]

It looks nice but I don't think a lot of the touch screens which are likely to get tacky.

[A and C]

Tacky screens? probably no worse than my iphone.......................Emmm may be you have a point!

[smitn05]

Not sure about tacky screens. They seem very iphone-esque and Ive never had anthing tacky on my screen.

From our initial play with the units at the launch the main selling points (apart from the flash interface) was much better topo mapping with very quick redraw and the price - not significantly more than the equivalent 430 / 530.

It seems that the old style knobs that remain do allow for nav / comm frequency selection etc, so in the event of a software glitch or screen problem rendering the touch functionality U/S it will still get you home.

The GTN650 (430 size unit) suffers from the same issue as the original 430 in so much as there's too much info on the screen and it becomes very cluttered with a very small topo map in the middle.

The GTN750 is much more usable and you could happily be flying with it VFR within a few minutes of sitting in the cockpit with the pilots guide (very intuitive).

Use in turbulence was also brought up at the launch but seemingly is not a huge problem according to the non-garmin employed guys who had flown it (press primarily). The units are shaped around the edges giving what Garmin described as 'anchors' allowing your hand to be steadied against the edge of the unit when selecting touch functions.

All in all nice equipment we thought, although what this space for the ETSO approval and subsequent certifications.

Initial thoughts on certification for EASA aircraft were that a single install should be able to be a MINOR whilst dual will be a MAJOR - just like the current equipment, although time will tell if EASA or the CAA get jumpy over new human-machine interface methods.

As soon as the ETSO gets granted I guess a call to your friendly DO would be in order if you want one of these sparkly new toys :-)

So IO, are you going to get your chequebook out and do away with your Bendix-King stack ;-) heheheh

On a completely separate note, I was looking at the Ipad 2's today and noted a slight design flaw that could render them less than ideal in a cockpit environement - a lovely designed cover that magnetically attaches to the ipad. Looks great seems to work really well but the magnets in the Ipad themselves might cause the stby compass some heartache!!! Anyone tried one yet in a cockpit?

[IO540]

So IO, are you going to get your chequebook out and do away with your Bendix-King stack ;-) hehehehAs Clint Eastwood said, do you feel lucky enough to be an unpaid (paying them heavily, actually) beta tester for firmware v1.00000001b ?

I would never spend money unless I was getting either significant mission capability (and newer avionics rarely gives you that, once you have a GPS+MFD) or was getting some solution to actual regulatory crap (PRNAV comes to mind as the only likely one, currently).

Also, you worked on my plane so you know that replacing the KLN94+KX155A means the centre stack right out, which makes it a big job, mandating an avionics shop.

And a Garmin won't drive the KMD550 properly so that would have to come out too. Well into 5 digits.

[Fuji Abound]

Yes I used the iPad 2 today on a longish flight with the destination plates ready. It worked fine on the knees away from the compass. It is certainly much quicker, much lighter both otherwise little different. It does everything I want in terms of pre flight except I would like to have pocketfms on it or something similiar and a good pan European graphical notam plotter like Ian Falcons.

The screen is unchanged, pretty good but not perfectly sun light readable in all conditions.

As to touch screen PDF and mfds I would need to be convinced if for no other reason that I have been in turbulence where a touch screen might prove a challenge but I will look forward to trying them.

[A and C]

Will the new garmin equipment expand the abilty of my aircraft to do the long distance (for an SEP!) touring that I require or expand the aircrafts IFR capability?......................No.

So I guess the Bendix/King stack stays, but I might just look at an Aspin.

[wigglyamp]

One significant advantage of the new GTN units over the older 430/530 series is for IFR pilots. You can now load an airways route by just inserting the entry and exit points and the unit will populate all of the intermediate waypoints in the same way as the GNS480 did before.

[IO540]

Airways entry (IF you have a keypad) is a great feature, though not anywhere near as important for enroute pilot workload as the keypad itself with which entering 30 waypoints is a doddle.

I wonder where the keypad would be located? In most planes there is no obvious "FMS-type" location unless one does a lot of re-hashing.

The most important thing one needs to consider with major avionics retrofits is integration with the other kit, and the biggest chestnuts tend to be autopilot issues.

The Aspen product is a very feature-rich solution for the money but they have only just brought out the "KI-256 emulator" box so that is another piece of unproven electronics.

[AdamFrisch]

Well, in my aircraft I need to replace the old Michel MX170 nav/com at some point, add a DME and if I ever want to use her in Europe, swap the King mode C for a new mode S. On top of that the Garmin 300XL gps/com is seriously dated by now. Add all that up, not to mention the space one would save, and you end up roughly at the same price as one of these new Garmin boxes with everything in them.

I had planned to swap the MX170 for a Garmin SL30 nav/com with DME and use a Ipad2 with Foreflight as the main gps (with a Bad Elf external gps), but then I couldn't do any approaches in the future. I'm still getting the Ipad2 w Foreflight, but as a backup and intermediary. I'm still stuck with the old Garmin 300XL gps from the beginning of time.

I think many people are in similar situation as me, they've added on marginal stuff over the years and now they're ready to get one unit that can replace them all and simplify.

I'll be looking closely at it when the time comes.

[IO540]

Well, in my aircraft I need to replace the old Michel MX170 nav/com at some point, add a DME and if I ever want to use her in Europe, swap the King mode C for a new mode S. On top of that the Garmin 300XL gps/com is seriously dated by now. Add all that up, not to mention the space one would save, and you end up roughly at the same price as one of these new Garmin boxes with everything in them.

Do they have a DME?

I know a lot of people think a GNS430 has a DME but it doesn't; it is the GPS DCT distance you are seeing :) :)

But yes if you are ripping out a load of old gear, it's a good solution. As was the GNS430 - you get a 8.33 and FM immune radio, vor, ils, all in one compact box, and practically anybody could install it.

Personally I would never put in anything that's just come out. Give it a year at least, to fix bugs, etc, and to rule out the possibility of a major reliability issue which is always possible and indeed has happened in this business thought you rarely get to hear of it.

[AdamFrisch]

No, I think you're right, they don't have a DME. But they do have an audio panel, so you can get rid of that as well. I don't know how essential a DME is these days. They still teach DME Arcs for IFR, but I'm unsure if they can be swapped for a GPS arc.

[Morrisman1]

No, I think you're right, they don't have a DME. But they do have an audio panel, so you can get rid of that as well. I don't know how essential a DME is these days. They still teach DME Arcs for IFR, but I'm unsure if they can be swapped for a GPS arc.

Here in NZ unless the rules have changed (we are in a transition period while the rules are modified for GPS) you have to state "GPS distance" rather than DME when reporting your distance to ATC. Other than that I've heard nothing to say that I cannot use GPS in place of DME. Without GPS distance it would be a pain as DME doesn't always have quite the desired range at lower altitudes

[IO540]

Yes they can. Nobody uses DME for an arc these days!

In the USA that may be true.

Elsewhere a DME is mandatory for IFR in CAS. Many approaches also define DME distances. Sure you can use GPS distances instead but only if your GPS has a waypoint which corresponds to DME=0.

A DME is a very useful bit of kit for backing up GPS, too.

Flying DME arcs is one of the much less common uses for a DME.

[IO540]

What about the "alternate airport" issue if the destination has a GPS approach as the only approach?

AFAIK this one is widely disregarded, as it would force people to carry the navaid receivers.

[peterh337]

This mandatory SB (http://www8.garmin.com/aviation/notices/ASDN1203.pdf) has just come out. It is big news in the USA. There is a long thread on Beechtalk (http://www.beechtalk.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=64454) but you have to join to read it.

Garmin are keeping quiet on what exactly the hazard was, but it sounds like a possible LOC fault i.e. affecting flying an ILS. This appears on a US forum:

Hello Everyone,
this was an unfortunate problem that was found with some NAV boards that were built by our vendor. There is a serial number break for the defective boards, the problem is we know what the date codes are on the defective boards and when the boards arrived. However there was also another date code of board during this time frame as well so it's impossible to identify for sure which units have the defective board. So what we have to do is bring all the units that fall into this serial number range, take apart the unit, if it has the known bad date code we're replacing the NAV board and re-aligning. If does not have the bad date code the unit is returned to service, mod 1 is marked and the unit returned. Unfortunately we're limited on how many units we can do each day as they do have to go back through our production facility. I apologize for the inconvenience this may cause, however the problem with these boards is not consistent as it had to do with the way the board itself with the multilayer's was assembled. let me know if there is any questions.

Here's a list of the units that possibly are affected.

GTN 650 (Black face) S/N's 1Z8001498 through 1Z8001801
GTN 750 (Black Face) S/N's 1ZA001270 through 1ZA001876, 1ZA000644, 1ZA000709, and 1ZA001230
GTN 750 (Gray Face) S/N's 1ZA200303 through 1ZA200319

here are no consistent problems that will be seen. In some cases you'll have intermittent problems in some it will be more prevalent with the NAV not working. The problem is with the board manufacturing process and not any components on it. The problems are very rare and even with the bad date code board you may never see any issues as the problems have been very rare. However it was a decision to remove them.

Best Regards,

_________________
Trek A. Lawler
Supervisor, Garmin Aviation Field Service Engineering
Aviation Product Support

[overandout]

I have just taklen the plunge and the shiny GTN 650 looks and seems as good as promised. Only in a week so early days yet. VHF/VOR/ILS all perfect. Ability to semi auto input all frequencies is superb.
IFR Route input a doddle and waypoint sequencing perfect. So far no turbulence found but the finger grip would seem to make selections secure..will have to wait and see on that one.
Anyone wanting a look/try/play ..do get in touch.
And no.No commission receivable
Overandout

[peterh337]

Are you connected to other avionics using analog or ARINC? (esp. the autopilot)

Any MFD you are driving?

[englishal]

When we ever build a new panel, I'm going to leave space somwhere big enough to velcro a Motorola Xoom Android tablet on, hard wired power etc. I may also stick an Ipad on there too, to run Skydemon (unless SD comes out on Android). The Android tab will then display attitude by virtue of its integral gyros and barometric pressure. You can get a pretty cool HUD app for it. The Ipad can then run some sort of mapping software. Heck while I am at it I might buy a PAYG 3G card so I can file flight plans on the fly, download weather and so I can by tracked by people using Glymps.

Yours for less than a grand and a pretty smart setup! Makes you wonder why Avionics cost so much....

The 430W will still be the primary IFR GPS of course ;)

[peterh337]

Might have some fun with self erection of the Android tab gyros :E

[englishal]

Make sure you have your erection on the runway before you leave ;) then you are good to go for it....

[AdamFrisch]

I'm going to leave room for two iPads when I redo my panel. One to run Foreflight on as the main unti, either as a VFR or IFR with approach plates etc. The other one will be used in IFR as a VFR awareness running either same software or a different one.

There are other multiple uses for the second one:

FlightGuide has just announced a graphic TCAS capability with Zaon external TCAS. This is fantastic news and will eliminate the need to look at horrid little text displays. Can't see why it wouldn't work in Europe as well.

WingX software has synthetic vision and will serves as a good backup for total electrical failure.

All of them have some sort of real time weather capabilities if you can get 3G. Which you quite often can if not flying too high.

Good stuff ahead.

[peterh337]

Make sure you have your erection on the runway before you leave http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/wink2.gif then you are good to go for it....

It won't last for long enough though :) But, OK, you are younger than me :E

http://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m74/peterh337/Ipad%20stuff/ipad-ai.jpg

[stickandrudderman]

Anything that doesn't rely on Jeppeson data has to be an improvement....

[rdalquist]

I recently selected and oversaw the installation of a GTN725 & GTN 625 in an aircraft I'm flying. After about 100 hours of flying I've developed the belief that Garmin released this product too early. It's not yet ready and those of us that are suing it are really just "beta testers". I'm a long time Garmin fan and installed GNS 530/430 combo's in several aircraft over the last 10 years. At this point if I was to do this installation again, I'd be installing the GNS series as it is a more complete and refined product.
With the most recent software release Garmin has disabled the air data calculations as they were not functioning properly. Many other features including the fuel calculation function are underdeveloped and in my case - unusable. Garmin technical assistance has been unapologetic and from what I've been told we are 1-2 years away from the level of functionality we should expect for a piece of installed aviation hardware / software.
I'm not sure if this fact is part of the issue of not, but the GNS series was developed by the legacy Garmin folks in Kansas. The GTN series has been developed and managed by the old Apollo/UPS/CNX series crew.
I have not given up hope, but a large amount of patience is being required.

[A and C]

Quote :- Anything that doesn't rely on a Jeppesen data has to be an improvement


Oh how wrong can you be ! The errors in other charting products on the market are far worse and numerous, Jeppesen is not perfect but its far better than the others.

[englishal]

Looking at the previous threads about Peter's Erection above :).....I bought a Levil AHRS unit in the USA when I was out there recently. We have a 430W linked to AP etc., which is fine for the legal stuff, then we have also mounted an Ipad to the panel to display a moving map - Skydemon which is far superior in terms of situational awareness.

This also connects to my AHRS (which is hidden away) via WiFi and it means we can run a backup AI on the Ipad running iHUD remote or something. I am thinking about mounting an old Android phone / iPhone to the panel somewhere as a dedicated AI, and run iHUD remote or ixGyro.

This AHRS is great, self erecting :D, just switch it in and it finds attitude. It is battery powered with about 8hrs battery life, but USB chargeable like all our Gizmos - iPad, AHRS, BT GPS and old phone.

The only thing we have to find now is a 12V USB hub which can charge all these devices on the go.....

[WEARS]

Unreliable and sorry I paid the ransom for it.

[Sam Rutherford]

Erm, if you're updating a 4+ year old thread you might need to be more specific about your subject!

Thanks, Sam.