Norwegian HEL-base , Estonian-contract

[SlowAndSilly]

Hi,

Any brave, and apparently wealthy, pilots (FO/FC) on the mentioned contract, that would care to comment on what the "take-home" (or net loss) would be?

Also, what are your, if you have any, loan obligations (student loan, car loan house mortgage) and how you will manage financially?

Regards,

[Crossunder]

This is the Nordic forum. No sane nordic pilot would work under The T&Cs DY is offering in HEL. They barely managed to round up enough desperate souls for the first initial course. Try to find an underground ex-East Block forum and post the Q there... ;)

[sprite1]

Salary paid in NOK, converted to EUR at exchange rate on pay-day. 3 incomes:- basic salary of around €44,000 pa. Sector pay of around €30 per block hour. Housing allowance of around €600 pm. Contract governed under Estonian law, taxes to be paid in Estonia. Sick for more than 2 days in the year, they stop your basic salary. Sick for more than 5 days, they can fire you. Yes, that's what is written in the contract.

Also, pay for medical, loss of licence, etc.

A real Union breaker, if you ask me. I'm sure DY mainline is nothing like the above. Also, you would have to ask, why do DY feel they have to put their Finnish based pilots on an Estonian contract, paid in NOK/EUR and all for just 12 months. Race to the bottom anyone??

SlowandSilly, I still haven't forgot about you. I'll write to you next week. Cheers.

[PropsAreForBoats]

This is the first real showdown for the DY pilot union. Will be very interesting to see how they play this one out.

[Dovregubben]

Nowegian Pilot Union has brought these conditions to the court -Arbeidsretten.

However, HEL is geographicly outside the borders of the collective agreement so nobody can prevent Norwegian to establish a new airline in Finland under new T and C's. So far they still operate with a norwegian AOC and norwegian registered aircraft.

Norwegian management threatened their pilot union in writing last week with a lawsuit for damages at 1 million NOK per day.

Norwegian pilots will not sell days off and the entire pilotgroup will probably be slow as syrup for weeks to come.

Management will not speak to their union at all about HEL and there is a major conflict blowing the Norwegian way.

Sad days. :confused:

[toolip]

Crossunder
Yeh right...nordic forum and still most replys on air baltic thread:)

6 Estonian Air pilots left...they didnt like crj900. And almost all Small Planet pilots.
Im not familiar with contract details but its close to that they had in EA and Small planet. Guessing 5000 eur after tax for a left seat. Main reason for EA pilots to leave was forced A/C change.
Small Planet closed estonian base and pilots left for a norwegian low cost lower cost base. Still better then beeing unemployed or moving to the middle of nowhere or next to nothing(sandpit).
Even DEC are offered for FO.

Totally agree....A real Union breaker

so ...wtf is going on in Norwegian

[Goldenbawls]

However, HEL is geographicly outside the borders of the collective agreement so nobody can prevent Norwegian to establish a new airline in Finland under new T and C's. So far they still operate with a norwegian AOC and norwegian registered aircraft.

This was also mentioned in another thread, but the union really(!) needs to revisit "contract scope." Norwegian is not establishing a new airline in HEL with new terms. They are opening a new DY-base and "pisser på" their pilots.

It really can´t be that hard writing a contract which states along the lines of: "any flying controlled by DY or on DY-airplanes must be flown by pilots on the NPU/Parat seniority list." Is it?

[Goldenbawls]

Not an easy one. If you ask me, which I´m sure no one is, they should set up "new" airlines in these markets, give them old beat up planes, hire "monkeys for peanuts" and by doing so keep the union out of the loop and get the expansion that both management and NPF want´s and needs...
Aaanndd.. how does this make anything better?

[ENSA]

If DY (norway) pilots dont have a scope clause, their time us over. They will be teaching their own replacements.

It is the same everywhere, and history always repeats itself. Pilots allow management to hire new pilots on lower payscales in order to keep their own benefits. WHat they realise too late, (right now for DY NOrway pilots), is that the new pilots will take over their production in time.

>Good luck.

[Dovregubben]

Bjørn Kjos has told his pilots this is the only way to protect the present pilot group.

Very few pilots believe him.

Rough waters ahead.

[PropsAreForBoats]

This is the defining moment for pilots in Norwegian and their union. If this battle is lost then DY will no longer be a comparatively secure employer with fair T&Cs for its existing pilots. I hope NPF has a strong backing in the DY pilot group, they will need it.

[toolip]

Quagmire85

I just cant belive these numbers

even we in EA have better salarys(and we are lowest payd pilots in region I believe)
you must be REALLY mad to leave steady job for lower salary and 1 year contract...

or SJS(shiny jet syndrom) really exists????

or ....

[RTO]

You can thank FR for what's going down in the airline industry right now. Pushing operations with borderline legality makes their cost so low, others have to follow or die. FR is poisoning our T&C even more than they already are.

[oNearly]

The contract...:yuk:

EMPLOYMENT CONTRACT: PILOT
I. Date
This Employee Contract is made [date] between:
II. Parties
1. and 2.
• •
Arpi Aviation, Estonia (“the Employer”)
XX, XX, [address, birth date] (“the Employee”).

III. Preamble
The Employee will be rented out as staff to different airline companies on the basis of a contract between the Employer and such airline company (“the Present Lessee”).
Nothing in this Employment Contract shall be deemed to create any employment relationship between the Employee and the Present Lessee, and consequently the Employee’s only employer from any legal or taxation perspective, shall be the Employer.
IV. Terms and Conditions
During the term of this Agreement, the Employee shall render services at the request of the Employer to the Present Lessee upon the following terms and conditions:

1. General Conditions 1.1 The Employer shall, subject as hereinafter provided, employ the Employee in the capacity of
CPT. 1.2 The duration of the employment is 12 months, as from the time of accession, with a
possibility of extension.
1.3 The Employee shall undertake and perform all such line duties as the Employer requires, in accordance with the from time to time applicable flight time limitations operated by the Present Lessee. The Employee will observe and comply with all instructions and regulations from time-to- time given to him by the Present Lessee.
1.4 In roistering the Employee for duty the Employee shall be entitled to have 8 days off in any full calendar month be allocated in accordance with the Present Lessee’s Flight Time Limitation Scheme (such days off may be Saturdays, Sundays or public holidays). The work pattern will decided by the Present Lessee.
1.4 The Employee is required to clear with the Present Lessee’s Flight Operations Department and have duly authorized in advance individual request for any changes to the published/official roster.

2. Commencement 2.1 The date as may be agreed in writing between the parties.

3. Remuneration
3.1 The salary consists of a fixed and a variable part. The fixed annual salary is NOK 348.000, and the variable salary is NOK 290 per hour. The Employer shall pay the Employee a monthly salary equivalent with 1/12 of the fixed salary, plus hourly pay for actual worked hours each month. The Employee’s bank account details shall be furnished in writing by the Employee to the Employer.
3.2 The salary shall be paid in EURO, converted from NOK based on the official current conversion rate between NOK and EURO each pay day.
3.3 The Employee is exclusively responsible for the payment of taxes in Estonia or any other country in the world, pertaining to any remuneration paid to the Employee by the Employer under this employment contract.

4. Accommodation and Transportation
4.1 The Employee shall be provided by the Employer with the airline standard hotel accommodation or apartment at base of operation and single room hotel accommodation at layover stations other than base at which he is required to perform his duties.
4.2 Notwithstanding clause 4.1, the Employee may choose to provide his own accommodation. If the Employee so chooses, he shall be paid a subsistence/housing allowance of NOK 5.000 per month.
4.3 The Employee shall be provided with suitable means of ground transportation to and from airfields at base and layover stations other than base, pursuant to the Present Lessees instructions and regulations.
4.4 The Employee shall be provided with an airline ticket at commencement and termination of the contract to and from the place of origin of the personnel and base or layover station, pursuant to the Present Lessees instructions and regulations.

4. Licenses and Legal requirements
5.1 The Employee shall produce evidence of all licenses, including personal insurance, held by him to the Employer and take such steps (if any) as may be required to qualify himself under the Estonian laws to undertake all duties assigned to him.
5.2 The Employee will be responsible for maintaining the validity of his flying license, medical, passport and airline pass and to ensure the these documents are carried with him whilst on duty and that these documents be made readily available for inspection by the Employer or by any approved Inspector from the Civil Aviation Authority with whom the Present Lessee holds its Air Operators Certificate or the relevant authority in any other country in which the Employee is required to operate.
5.3 The Employee shall abide by all laws of Estonia and any other state in which he may be required to perform his duties.
5.4 The Employee shall not consume alcoholic beverages of any kind in the period beginning 18 (eighteen) hours before the time at which he is roistered for duty.
5.5 The Present Lessee will add the name of the Employee to the Present Lessee’s Overseas Medical & Repatriation Personal Accident Insurance Policy but only in respect of incidents which may occur whilst the Employee is undertaking duties (excluding roistered days off) on behalf of the Present Lessee.

6. 6.1
Termination and Service Period
A notice of 30 days is required for voluntary termination by both parties.
The Employee recognizes and acknowledges that his services to the Present Lessee are required throughout the entire term of the individual service period and the Employee may not terminate the Contract during the service period unless mutually agreed between the Employee and the Employer. The Employee acknowledges that should he be in breach of the Contract due to his failure to complete the service period it is recognized that the Present Lessee is likely to suffer substantial losses by virtue of the need to engage a replacement pilot to enable the Present Lessee to meet its contractual obligations and in relation to consequential losses if it is unable to do so. The Present Lessee’s losses may be directed at Employer. Accordingly it is agreed that the Employee will be liable to reimburse the Employer for all such costs.
6.2
6.2 Should the service agreement between the Employer and the Present Lessee relative to the provision of the Employee’s services to the Present Lessee be terminated and the Employer cannot offer the Employee another position with any other lessee, the Employer may terminate this Contract according to clause 6.1 above.
5.3 The Employer may terminate this Contract with immediate effect and at any time if the Employee, during the terms of this Contract
6.3.1commits any grave misconduct or misconduct or any conduct tending to bring himself or the Employer or the Present Lessee into disrepute or breach or non-observance of any of the conditions of this Contract,
or
6.3.2without just cause willfully neglects or fails or refuse to carry out any of his duties thereunder,
or 6.3.3is adjudged bankrupt or compounds with his creditors, or
6.3.4 is convicted of any criminal offence, or
6.3.5 fails to pass or maintain the standard Airline Pilots medical, or 6.3.6 fails to pass or maintain the ATPL license, or
6.3.7fails any initial or periodic simulator/aircraft training or proficiency check or line check carried out by or on behalf of the Present Lessee or fail to maintain the required standard.
6.4 If the Employee is terminated in accordance with clause 6.3, the Employee is entitled to so much of his salary as have accrued to the date of such termination without prejudice to any prior subsisting claims of either party.
6.5 The Employee shall, following the end of his services to the Present Lessee, return to the Present Lessee all manuals, items of uniform, identity card and any other items of property issued to the Employee by or on behalf of the Present Lessee. A final clearance certificate from the Present Lessee duly signed by the Employee evidencing that the forgoing requirement has been complied with, will be required by the Employer.
6.6 In the event of this Contract being terminated in accordance with 6.1 6.2 or 6.3 hereto the Employee hereby agrees that the Employer may retain all outstanding allowances and salary payments which are due to the Employee and offset such retained payments against any/all training costs incurred by the Employer by any Present Lessee.
6.6 The Employee agrees that he will not, during the terms of this Contract or for a six month period thereafter, offer himself in direct employment to any Present Lessee without the prior consent and written agreement of the Employer.

7. Incapacitation and Death
7.1 If, during the terms of this agreement, the Employee shall be incapacitated through accident, ill- health or otherwise prevented from efficiently performing his duties thereunder, then should any period of such incapacity extend for 3 consecutive days or more (being days the Employee would otherwise have been roistered for duty) or for a total of 5 such days in any period of two months, then
7.1.1the Employer shall not be liable to make payment of salary to the Employee in respect to the total duration of any such periods of incapacity and
7.1.2the Employer shall be entitled to terminate this Contract by notice in writing to the Employee.
7.2 In respect of any period of incapacity through accident of ill health extending for 3 consecutive days or more, the Employee shall, at his own expense, furnish to the Employer a certificate from a registered Medical Practitioner setting out the nature of such incapacity and the probable extent of the period of incapacity.
7.3 The Employee shall, at any time during the period of this Contract submit at the request of the Employer to a Medical Examination by any registered Medical Practitioner nominated by the Employer and shall, as part of such examination, submit to any x-ray or other diagnostic tests and procedures proposed.
7.4 It shall be the responsibility of the Employee to ensure that he has all necessary vaccinations/ inoculations required for any state in which he may be required to perform his duties and that all such vaccinations/inoculations are kept up to date. The Employee will also ensure that he is inoculated as a protection against influenza and any other such infectious diseases as the Employer may direct.
7.5 The Employer shall have any liability whatsoever in the event of death or injury to the Employee or in the event of loss/damage to the Employee’s property when such harm/loss occurs when the Employee is not undertaking roistered duties on behalf of the Present Lessee and the Employee shall ensure that he makes his own adequate insurance agreements to covers such risks. Liability in respect of any incident which occurs whilst the Employee is undertaking roistered duties on behalf of the Present Lessee will be strictly in accordance with Estonian law.

8. Taxes
8.1 The Employee undertakes and accepts responsibility to comply with all of his income tax to the Estonian authorities, national insurance, personal incident/accident insurance and all other personal tax obligations.

9. Law 9.1 This Contract shall be governed by Estonian law.

10. Contractual revision 10.1 This Contract may not be altered unless in writing by mutual agreement between the parties.

11. Effectuation
11.1 This Contract shall not become binding until it is executed by the Employer. This Contract supersedes all prior agreements/contracts, whether written or oral between the Employee and the Employer.

[Goldenbawls]

The fixed annual salary is NOK 348.000, and the variable salary is NOK 290 per hour. The Employer shall pay the Employee a monthly salary equivalent with 1/12 of the fixed salary, plus hourly pay for actual worked hours each month. For CPT?? :eek:

the Employee shall be entitled to have 8 days off in any full calendar month be allocated in accordance with the Present Lessee’s Flight Time Limitation Scheme (such days off may be Saturdays, Sundays or public holidays).

the Employee will be responsible for maintaining the validity of his flying license, medical, passport and airline pass and to ensure the these documents are carried with him whilst on duty

7.1 If, during the terms of this agreement, the Employee shall be incapacitated through accident, ill- health or otherwise prevented from efficiently performing his duties thereunder, then should any period of such incapacity extend for 3 consecutive days or more (being days the Employee would otherwise have been roistered for duty) or for a total of 5 such days in any period of two months, then
7.1.1the Employer shall not be liable to make payment of salary to the Employee in respect to the total duration of any such periods of incapacity and
7.1.2the Employer shall be entitled to terminate this Contract by notice in writing to the Employee

Gratulerer :D

[Nick Figaretto]

Denne er også bra:

7.3 The Employee shall, at any time during the period of this Contract submit at the request of the Employer to a Medical Examination by any registered Medical Practitioner nominated by the Employer and shall, as part of such examination, submit to any x-ray or other diagnostic tests and procedures proposed.

Hurra for personvern og rettigheten til å bestemme over egen kropp.

[Hank the F/C]

Never did the contract circus my self, is this sheit standard stuff or is the old Fart showing his true colors by creating this sinister contract:confused:
Maybe some one here that can enlighten us unionized guys about the contract business and if this is what you would expect...

[Dissident]

Är detta sant?! Är det här kontraktet på riktigt eller är det ett skämt!? Det är ju fruktansvärt dåligt och så långt ifrån ett rimligt kontrakt man kan komma! Det här MÅSTE media få information om så att de kan ställa den smilande och MoL... Nej förlåt, Björn Kjos mot väggen! Dags för norwegians piloter att börja bli riktigt nervösa för sin arbetssituation: om Kjos kommer undan med det här så kan ni glömma era nuvarande villkor! Trist att norsken ska bete sig så illa, trodde de var good guys...:-(

[Aerosmith]

The Employee acknowledges that should he be in breach of the Contract due to his failure to complete the service period it is recognized that the Present Lessee is likely to suffer substantial losses by virtue of the need to engage a replacement pilot to enable the Present Lessee to meet its contractual obligations and in relation to consequential losses if it is unable to do so. The Present Lessee’s losses may be directed at Employer. Accordingly it is agreed that the Employee will be liable to reimburse the Employer for all such costs.

This in reality means a notice period of 12 months and should you dare to leave earlier, you will be charged with the training cost of a new employer :mad:

Looking foreward to seeing the T&C´s of the upcoming Longhaul adventure. Mongolian or perhaps Uzbekistan contracts? :confused:

[Diper]

Som tidligere nevnt, Ryanair har satt standarden for lowcost. Betingelsene i bransjen blir verre og verre. Denne gangen er det arbeidsbetingelsen i Norwegian, neste gang er det noen andre i et annet selskap.
Piloter står ikke sammen. Norwegian pilotforening meldte seg ut av Norsk Flygerforbund for en stund tilbake og skal nå få hjelp av Parat, som har null erfaring på piloters betingelser internationalt, eller?

The race for the bottom startet for lenge siden, dette er bare et trinn på veien!
:ugh:

[berserker]

Mulig Parat har mange medlemmer, men i en sak som dette hadde det kanskje vært en fordel å vært medlem et sted hvor man kan backes opp av x antall andre pilotforeninger.......
Hvilke andre pilotforeninger har Parat?

[Nick Figaretto]

Det stemmer neppe det du skriver, Dovregubben.

Riktignok organiserer Parat også rundt 200 ex braathenspiloter gjennom pilotforeningen Scannor, men i NF er det ca 1350 medlemmer, og det er nok et høyere antall piloter enn det Parat kan skilte med.

Jeg vet at Parat har gjort et stort nummer av at de (og Parat Luftfart) er den største foreningen for "flygende", men det er på grunn av alle de kabinansatte.

Å få samlet alle pilotforeninger under én paraply igjen, tilknyttet IFALPA og ECA ville definitivt være en stor fordel for piloter i Norge. Norwegian Pilotforening forsvant ut av NF på grunn av krangel om 60+. Hva som skal til for at NPF går tilbake til NF igjen er vanskelig å si.

For i bunn og grunn handler dette kun om prestisjen til noen ganske få enkeltinivider.

Og i slike settinger er det kun én ting som fungerer: Massivt press fra egne medlemmer.

[Diper]

Streikekassa til Parat er totalt uinterressant i denne forbindelse. Forringelse av piloters betingelser er ikke et typisk norsk problem. Yrket er internationalt og det er også problemstillingen. Norsk Flygerforbund er medlem i det Europeiske Pilotforbundet. Hvis piloter i hele Europa kunne stå sammen ville det kanskje hjelpe!
Internationalt er Norwegianpilotene ikke med. Skal de regne med Parat i Norge??:ugh:

[RTO]

Sorry to say, men foreningen til DY er en gjeng med headless chickens. I fjor brukte de all sin tid på å øke godgjørelsen til styret. De fikk til og med banket gjennom en kompensasjon som oversteg foreningens inntekter, til tross for at det ikke var flertall for dette. Selvfølgelig med god hjelp av parat (LO?). Så lenge vi ikke har et samlet pilotkorps i NF kommer det ikke noe fornuftig ut i andre enden her.

[waldowinter]

Why don't you speak english?

[BBJ King]

40% payrise? Please elaborate.

[captplaystation]

waldowinter,

frustrating as it is,I agree, this is their bloody forum :rolleyes: so, we could suggest they move it to Terms and Endearment, if not. . we have to STFU :oh:

[AnotherHardLanding]

Dovregubben has a few interesting comments:

"I SAS f.eks. er lønnen fryst i flere år og roster er kanniballisert til det ugjenkjennelige med helvariabel utnyttelse av pilotkorpset.Tipper at mange takker NF og SPF dypt for det."

Well. Since SAS almost went bankrupt a few months ago, partly due to the very tough competition from our respected colleagues in Norwegian, I will have to say that you don't really get the big picture here. Actually I am quite satisfied that my roster has been "cannibalized" (what ever that means...) and my salary frozen for many years (well, actually we have reduced our salaries quite considerably, not just frozen them). Due to the simple fact that without these mentioned measures, and a lot more, from the pilot unions of SAS there would have been no more SAS. And I wouldn't have had a job.
I would really have hated to be in that situation...

So I call that "responsible behaviour".

Add the (for you maybe slightly irritating) fact that the pilot salaries of SAS are still way above those of Norwegian, and I think 99,9% of the pilots of SAS include a few "bless NSF/SPF/DPF" in their evening prayers.

From what I can see, the pilots of Norwegian are doing a hell of a fine job under demanding conditions and a lot of pressure. I can see absolutely no reason why your salary should be lower than mine. I think you should tell that to the Billionaire who is running your company. There is room for at least two great carriers in Scandinavia without us pilots racing against each other in an endless spiral towards the bottom.

[strey]

- Kjos dumper pilotlønnen (http://e24.no/jobb/kjos-dumper-pilotloennen/20041979)

The heat is on ;)

[Goldenbawls]

Reply to a post that no longer exists.

[cefey]

http://media.norwegian.com/no/Pressemeldinger/?iId=609788

Fakta om Norwegians etablering i Finland

04.04.2011 09:48

Sist torsdag åpnet Norwegian ny base i Finland. Basen i Finland etableres med innleie av piloter og kabinansatte. Disse skal fly i Finland og ut av Finland, det vil si at vi skal konkurrere med selskaper som driver sin virksomhet med langt lavere lønnskostnader enn det vi har i Norwegian. Det har i denne prosessen vært helt avgjørende for Norwegian å sikre høyt kvalifisert arbeidskraft. Snittalderen blant pilotene er 40 år, de fleste er skandinaver som har fløyet internasjonalt og vil nærmere hjemlandet. Lønningene er konkurransedyktige internasjonalt. Det viser massen av godt kvalifiserte søkere.

Å etablere seg i Finland med norske pilotlønninger, på et kostnadsnivå langt over konkurrentene, ville ikke vært bærekraftig. Samtidig er det begrensede vekstmuligheter i de skandinaviske landene vi opererer, slik at dersom selskapet skal vokse og styrke seg i et konkurranseutsatt marked, må den største delen av veksten komme utenfor Skandinavia. Dette er noe de aller, aller fleste ansatte i Norwegian støtter opp om.

Trygge etablerte arbeidsplasser
Den aller beste måten å trygge eksisterende arbeidsplasser i Norwegian er gjennom videre vekst og å sikre driften av selskapet ved å ha kontroll på kostnadene. En konsekvens av dette er at vi må snu hver stein for å sikre en kostnadseffektiv drift. Den aller viktigste faktoren er overgang til en helt ny og moderne flyflåte med lavere drivstofforbruk. En annen viktig komponent ved ekspansjon er å bygge arbeidsplasser tilpasset kostnadsnivået i de markedene man etablerer seg. Dette er ikke spesielt for Norwegian og ikke noe nytt. Antallet norske bedrifter som har virksomhet i Baltikum er mange. Norwegian har lenge hatt kundesenter i Tallin og Riga. Vi har meget god erfaring med arbeidskraft her. Stikkordene er pålitelighet, pliktoppfyllende og historisk nærhet til skandinavisk språk og kultur. Samtidig er det et faktum at lønningene i Baltikum er betydelig lavere enn i Norge, og i andre EU land som Sverige og Finland, og levekostnader og skattenivå er tilsvarende lavt. I Norwegian har vi lagt stor vekt på at de vi leier inn til oss skal ha konkurransedyktige betingelser og ordnede arbeidsforhold. Arbeidstakerne skal selvsagt ha fulle rettigheter til å organisere seg. Den store søkermassen til utleiebyråene vi benytter av svært erfarne og kompetente medarbeidere viser at lønningene og vilkårene er konkurransedyktige internasjonalt.

Opplæring og trening i Norwegians prosedyrer er det Norwegian som er ansvarlig for, men det er byråene som gjør rekrutteringen og ansettelsene. Å "utdanne" en pilot i Norwegians prosedyrer, bakketrening, simulator, utstyr osv. koster over 150 000 kroner pr person. Det betyr at det er særdeles viktig for Norwegian å sikre de beste kandidatene og ikke minst; beholde dem. Vi har sett påstander om at pilotene kan miste jobben om de er syke noen dager. Dette faller på sin egen urimelighet. Når Norwegian har bekostet å klargjøre en pilot for å fly for oss, så er vi svært opptatt av å beholde vedkommende. Pilotene har selvsagt akkurat de samme sertifikater som for eksempel piloter som er ansatt i Norge. Forskjellen er først og fremst at innleie gir både arbeidstaker og oss som flyselskap større fleksibilitet. Vi har blant annet god erfaring med innleie i f eks Polen og i forbindelse med toppene i vår produksjon, for eksempel ved ferieavvikling om sommeren da det også er stor trafikk. Oppsigelsestiden er gjensidig en måned.

Det er hevdet anonymt i media, blant annet Dagens Næringsliv, at Norwegians norske piloter nekter å trene de innleide pilotene. Det er ikke riktig. Alle som er blitt satt opp for å trene i Finland har sagt seg villige til det. Vi er klar over at noen av våre norske tillitsvalgte er redde for at deres lønnskrav skal miste kraft når det er mulig å få arbeidskraft av høy kvalitet og til lavere kostnader. Til dette er å si at den fremste garantist for bevaring av arbeidsplassene i hele Norwegian er kontroll på kostnadene. Vi ønsker et godt samarbeid med fagforeningene, og er lydhøre for deres innspill. Noe av bakgrunnen for Norwegians suksess er det gode samarbeidet mellom arbeidsgiver og arbeidstaker, det er vårt konkurransefortrinn og har dermed vært en garanti for vekst og utvikling i selskapet.

Se eksempel på pilotkontrakt vedlagt nedenfor.

Kontakt:
Kommunikasjonsdirektør Anne-Sissel Skånvik, tlf. 97 55 43 44

[polazarus]

Kontrakten som NAS viser til i sin pressemelding og som tilsynelatende er datert 10.02.2011, inneholder betydelige forskjeller i forhold til kontrakten som tidligere har blitt limt inn i denne tråden. Noen som vet mer og kan forklare?

[Kilo-club SNA]

Kan bara intyga att det där kontraktet är helt olikt från de som presenterades vid jobberbjudande. Dock vet jag att det skedde omförhandlingar alteftersom.
Notera också att kontraktet ifråga bara gäller kaptener...

[120.450]

Fant dette på DN.no:


Dette svaret av bjorn kjos til personalen

Det er utrolig trist å lese Dagens Næringsliv i dag og å se at noen anonyme internt forsøker å ødelegge det vi prøver å bygge opp. Kanskje enda tristere når det fremstår som et samlet pilotkorps som står bak, piloter jeg føler jeg har ett veldig nært forhold til. Det er en hensikt vi har med dette vi gjør i Finland, å ta vare på og sikre de arbeidsplassene vi har. Slik jeg har fortalt er ikke disse sikre i den situasjonen vi i dag befinner oss i.



Uten at vi greier å bygge ett sterkere og større Norwegian, vil selskapet på sikt bli for lite til å greie seg i den turbulensen vi ser komme. Vi har ganske enkelt ikke stor nok kritisk masse til å nå de kostnivåene vi må ha for å forbli en sunn selvstendig aktør i fremtiden. I beste fall vil resultatet da bli en nedskalering for å gi plass til nye fremtidige aktører med bedre konkurranse evne, og da har nedturen virkelig startet.



Det er virkelig utrolig trist å se at noen heller finner glede i å prøve å rive ned det vi gjør for å prøve å styrke arbeidsplassene våre. Slike utspill kan ikke ha andre formål enn å forsøke skade Norwegian. Ellers kunne man latt frustrasjonen sin få utløp på intranettet vårt, Red Nose. Selv ikke mot en konkurrent ville jeg tillatt slike utspill som det vi har sett i Dagens Næringsliv i dag. Enda mer sårende er det da å få det fra egne, når hensikten virkelig er å beskytte egne arbeidsplasser. Så kanskje er tiden inne for å si at nok er nok Bjørn, alt har sin tid.



Bjørn

[cefey]

Syns det er litt tidlig å uttale seg no.
Vi må neste sjå ann, om disse "billige" piloter bjynner å komme inn i cockpit i Norge.
Ser vi det, då er alt BS og DY prøver berre å presse lønninga ned.

Einaste som eg ikkje likte er:
Snittalderen blant pilotene er 40 år, de fleste er skandinaver som har fløyet internasjonalt og vil nærmere hjemlandet
Så egentleg det er ikkje estonara, men skandinaviske piloter, gjennom eit estonsk rekrutt byrå? I så fall fy og fy!

[Guttn]

Det som er :yuk::yuk::yuk: med dette er den totale mangel på rett til arbeidsvern, i tillegg til ingen forsikringer. Det er "greit" at man tar inn noen kontraktsflygere ved brått behov, men man skal ikke måtte tilby en Ryanair-aktig kontrakt av den grunn.

Her kan man ikke sitte og se an hvordan det hele går, heller må foreningen inn på banen og vise at de duger til å verne om alle DY piloter, inkludert de som kommer inn på kontrakter, slik at det blir en fin harmonisering og at det fremmer en sikkerhetskultur og ikke blir splitt og hersk fra ledelsens side. Ser forøvrig at NF støtter kollegene i NPF i denne saken. :ok::D Det samme gjør jeg. Stå på gutter og jenter! Dette er en av deres viktigste kamper!

[polazarus]

Kontraktspilotene i CPH og ARN var vel også ansatt i henholdsvis Danmark og Sverige? Altså ikke sammenlignbart.

[cefey]

Det eg lurer på også, er kor mye under finsk standar, får pilotane?
Også, dei er vel ansatte i Estonia og betala skatt der. Kjapp google-search viste at den er kun på 22%.

Noen som veit kva er lønninga i f.eks air finland?

[Kilo-club SNA]

Det är väl helt ok att de finska (eller finnlandsbaserade) piloterna inte är på Norska kontrakt men frågan är ju varför de inte är på finska kontrakt?
Att Norwegian vill starta en ny bas med kontraktsanställda i händelse av att basen inte lönar sig är ju också helt ok. Och vilken lön man accepterar är ju faktist upp till var och en.
Men varför är de då inte anställda på ett Finskt kontrakt som kan leda till en fast anställning? Det är ju helt uppenbart att det inte är frågan om att anpassa operationen till HEL utan snarare att se hur lite man behöver erbjuda för att locka piloter...

[directmisbi]

Any news with this whole "situation" ? Recruitment and new courses? :{

[despegue]

the legal employer is determined by 3 questions:

1) Who schedules your roster/ holidays
2) Who's uniform are you wearing
3 Who is the company ID issuer.

If all three questions are answered with Norwegian, the contract is with Norwegian and NOT with the Estonian "company".

[sprite1]

Does anybody know if the planned 3rd aircraft is flying out of Helsinki yet? I believe it was due to start in early May.

I was up in Helsinki about 2 weeks ago at around 10pm and their first 2 737's were all closed up for the night. Just appeared they were more on the ground for crewing issues rather than their days work been done.

Also, are the pilots being rostered 5-4 as mentioned in the interviews or are they being rostered closer to 5-2 like the contract allows?

Cheers.

[dieselsix]

DY pilots, I hope you take this threat seriously. This is a classic "divide and conquer" strategy. If you let this go on you will see management demanding concessions by threatening to transfer planes and routs from one base to another and you'll be unable to do anything about it because of the animosity between the two pilot groups.
Don't believe for a second they need to do this for your job security.

[captplaystation]

Exactly, I have seen this done very sucessfully (for them, not you !) in several companies, & indeed it is the standard "modus operandi" in Ryanair, so look where their T's &C's have gone this last 10 years := if you need further evidence.

[JetSyndrome]

If you let this go on you will see management demanding concessions by threatening to transfer planes and routs from one base to another and you'll be unable to do anything about it because of the animosity between the two pilot groups.

...which is why negotiations are still running hot. The problem lies mainly with the pilots themselves:

A lot of DYs pilots have done most of their flying for low-life crap airlines. They don't know how airlines (and unions) are supposed to be run. They are easily scared, and are happy to escape from Hell Airlines. Then you have those who have been around the world for decades and are fed up of living like gypsies. They do not want to start commuting to Korea or China, have another divorce and start all over again for the umpteenth time. Then let's not forget the, rather frighteningly, large proportion of "pilots", (i.e. persons who happen to have a pilot's license) who are simply, uh, not very good at what they do. DY has no real form of selection/testing, so anything goes. Quality meets its ugly twin Quantity on the way out. These "pilots" know that they will never, ever land another half-decent airline job outside Africa if DY goes belly-up.
Left standing to fight are a few good men who have the wherewithal to see there's a storm coming in. Problem is, as long as the majority of the pilots are scared s//itless and will do anything to keep their jobs, how are the union reps gonna prep their members for a strike? Because we ARE talking about a strike if a scope clause is to be signed. If DY had only been a NF/IFALPA member, the collective agreement from 2006 would already have had a scope clause in it. Parat is clueless when it comes to these kinds of negotiations. Personally, I think that DY will slowly but surely drift towards Ryanair standards and past! Poorly paid contract pilots bullied around by a crazy boss who surrounds himself with incompetent @zz-kissing gold diggers.

[ENSA]

Get the popcorn and beer. This IS going to be good.

I've yet to meet the fool who couldn't get in once he forked over the cash.

[berserker]

Any DY pilots who would like to share some info about the whole situation with Helsinki-base and so on?
I hope Parat are taking care of things?

[ENSA]

That was that.

- Vi ansetter ingen i Norge.

- Vi ansetter ingen i Norge - DN.no (http://www.dn.no/forsiden/borsMarked/article2145413.ece)

[blusky75]

the contract showed is for CPT of FO?
can someone post the average salary for a FO?

thx

[low n' slow]

I spoke recently to a colleague who had a friend that was just offered a position in HEL. According to him, the offer was to fly 100 sectors linetraining with no salary as some sort of probation period. After these 100 sectors, a yes or no would be given for continued employment. If yes, a salary would be paid from this date onwards. Please note: this is a rumour, I'm not saying the information is correct.

Is there anyone in the know, is this what is really going on? Sounds a lot like a cheeky way to have pilots for free (much like the AAI thing going on).

/LnS

[Moonwalker]

If you look at the financial statements amongst majors and low costs in Europe you will soon discover that the cost structure at DY is more similar to a major. If DY wants to be successful as a low cost operator then I think they have to sort the expenses and what has started is just a desperate way of lowering the administration costs which is way too high for being called a low cost operator. Their gross profit is lower than SAS and that is most likely because they desperately sell their tickets with loss to get the numbers up. At the same time they eat up their profit with an administration and salary structure (% of Gross Profit) which is at the same level as British Airways and KLM/Air France.


If everything stays as it is at the moment then SAS will eventually start to make money and DY will still loose money or they have to increase their revenue by increasing their ticket price. If they do, they won't be seen as a low cost carrier anymore and DY really have to choose which side they want to be at and how they want to be seen by the public in the future. That is their biggest challenge at the moment. The other way to sort out the problem is to lower the administration and salary costs and this is what DY seem to be doing.

I would be very very surprised if DY offered the old good contract to the new pilots that eventually will be hired next year. I'm one of many pilots who would like to return to Scandiland, so it's not that I'm just trying to spread negative rumors about DY. Just do the calculation yourself, its a public company with public documentations, and see that with the current model it won't work in the long run, something has to be changed unfortunately :sad:

[captplaystation]

The old adage "if it seems too good to be true, then it probably is" very much applies here.

There is a happy hunting ground between 1 extreme (SAS) & the other (Ryanair) the task of the union is to convince both the pilots & the company that this is the best solution for everyone.

Based on previous failures on the part of both employers & employees ( to see reason & reality ) I am not too optimistic, but Hey, who knows, everyone might wake up in time.:hmm:

[falconetti]

Noen fått invitasjon til sim enda. (Skulle være ca aug 8)
f