Flying over the North Pole

[fmeneuhe]

Hi,
I have a question that maybe you can know.
Is possible to fly over the north or south pole? I mean right over, and not around. I heard there are flying restrictions about flying just over the poles. Anyone knows anything about that? Have anyone made a VFR o flyed closed over the poles?
Thanks

[clunckdriver]

Not only can you fly right over them, one Canadian operator even left a Twin Otter there, mind you they didnt intend to, just the ice was not quite a thick as they thought! {This was at the Geographic North, not the Magnetic one which has a habit of moving around}

[fmeneuhe]

Thanks. And can you fly over the magnetic pole as well?

[clunckdriver]

Yup, as long it doesnt move to say over the White House or some other place where you might get shot at.

[fmeneuhe]

And the electronical devices dont go mad over the magnetic poles?

[rotornut]

Yep:

Geomagnetism - Using a compass (http://gsc.nrcan.gc.ca/geomag/field/compass_e.php)

[fmeneuhe]

Ok thanks a lot.

Anyone in this forum has had the experience of flying closed over either the geographical pole or magnetic pole?

[Cpt. Underpants]

Private message for you.

[Lost in Saigon]

Air Canada has polar flights every day from Toronto to Beijing, Shanghai and Hong Kong. They all pass very near the North Pole but the routes will vary from day to day.

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y17/msowsun/_1a-5.jpg

[777AV8R]

Yes, have flown there many years with and without sophisticated electronics. Before the days of GPS, navigation was based on use of compasses set to True headings and alignment was set with the use of a special sextant mounted in the aircraft's windows (Sun/Moon/Stars). The use of the sextant was part of the Commerical Pilot's license in Canada.

We used a procedure called 'Desitnation Grid' where we would 'offset' the gyro compasses to the destination airport meridian. This could lead to a huge discussion on its own.

No restriction on 'going over the top', in fact I've just completed a Polar Trial demonstration flight for an international operator. The test flight will have a flight track right over the North Pole.

As for the Magnetic Pole...it moves around and its exact location can be found on Nav Canada publications.

[Rhys Perraton]

Last year a light aircraft made a flight over the North Pole and returned safely.

North Pole Journey 2010 (http://www.northpolejourney.com/)

Air News Explorersweb - the pioneers checkpoint (http://www.explorersweb.com/air/news.php?id=19542)

[Commander Taco]

The Boeing 777 is fully capable of flying directly over the North Pole. The Airbus product, on the other hand, is not. Apparently on the 'Bus, the instantaneous change in heading from 360 degrees to 180 degrees drives the APFDS (and consequently the autopilot) squirrelly. My carrier chooses not to directly cross the true North Pole with 777 out of conservative flight planning.

'Taco

[fmeneuhe]

Thanks to all.
And anyone had any experience flying over the South Pole?

[Rhys Perraton]

If it ain't Boeing I ain't going.
Lots of people nowadays fly over and at the South Pole, it's a busy place in the Southern summer.
Of course the water in the toilet goes around the other way.

[compressor stall]

Airbus have a standard polar nav mod that allows flight in polar regions with no problems. Not all aircraft have it fitted as standard. To my knowledge there is only one narrow body Airbus with it fitted.

It allows operations in True and Grid, which is an overlay of a grid on the polar region to stop the instantaneous flip flopping on headings.

As for the south magnetic pole, I have flown over it in a light turboprop and an Airbus. It's just off the coast of Dumont d'Urville at the moment. All navigation by then is done in True. GPS's work fine.

Look at a polar JNC. Lost of interesting lines making pretty shapes on it - especially the grivations :8

[fijdor]

Been there or just about in 2005 and again in 2009 flying contract for DND (Dep National Defense) as a civilian, we were working out of Alert Station, the last inhabited place before the North Pole (military).

First time, I picked up a helicopter from Oregon, USA and flew it up to Alert and the second time I went from Ottawa, Canada. Slightly different than flying over it at 35,000 ft . Both times i spent a month living there and flew the aircraft back after completing the assignment

Two different routes, from the west coast to the center of Canada and up to Alert and the second time I went by the East coast of Canada all the way up.

loved it.

JD

[justcurious]

You may fly over either the true or magnetic poles at either end of the earth. It is far more pleasant to do so in the back of a large aircraft with a drink in your hand. Flying over the North or South pole in an aircraft smaller than a C17 means that eventually you will have to land someplace cold and windy for fuel which may or may not be there when you arrive, and will cost an astonishing amount to pre-position.

At the Northern Poles, mag or true, the ice is any where from a few centimeters to several meters thick. And it moves 10 km plus a day. As it moves it is subjected to tides, currents and winds which all combine to break the ice up. Consequently the ice has cracks and high pressure ridges, and may be difficult to assess for suitability. If it is unsuitable, and you have landed onit, you may find that your aircraft is going to settle to the bottom of the Arctic Ocean, 8000 feet below.

At the Southern Poles, fuel must be pre-positioned. If you are not flying for a government program, this can cost upwards of 10000 a drum. And when you arrive at the Pole, you will not receive a cordial welcome from the station staff. Plus, it is cold at a level difficult to comprehend, and with the elevation, 9300 feet, any exertion, like rolling your 10000 dollar fuel drum, feels like you've carried it over your head and run around the aircraft.

Having been, I really warm to the idea of the back seat of a large aircraft with a drink in my hand. Doesn't make for as cool a hero pilot shot though.

[LesothosPride]

Been searching for a thread particular to North Pole Flights for GA

Its all good to hear one is allowed to fly over the North pole but under (if any) jurisdiction? I.e. if one flew from either of the neighbouring states, Greenland (Denmark), Canada, Norway or Russia, are there any authorities to deal with to permit your flight? Or do just say am going and no one will say anything

Does anyone know of a group of pilots/network to tap into to provide assistance to achieve such a flight, does one talk to the FAI about this etc

Cheers in advance

[fijdor]

Not to sure what you mean by FAI (maybe FAA, has nothing to do with this though) and also you mean the Geographic North Pole not the Magnetic North Pole which is fairly easy to get at. Below is a link to an organization (in Canada) that would be able to help you with infos etc.

Make sure you plan properly, this is not a country that pardon easily.

JD



Polar Continental Shelf Program | Earth Sciences (http://www.nrcan.gc.ca/earth-sciences/products-services/polar-shelf-services/11617)

[fly-4-ever]

Hi!

I am going with my plane to the geographic north pole at the end of march, a russian company is building a temporary runway for me and other few planes.

I have a spare seat and looking for someone to share the experience (and the expenses too )

anyone interested?

[fijdor]

I will be quite surprise if a Russian Compagny builds a temporary runway here in Canada, The Magnetic North is not that high up.

JD

[pigboat]

Did anyone see the voice from the grave on this thread? :(

[Lost in Saigon]

Hi!

I am going with my plane to the geographic north pole at the end of march, a russian company is building a temporary runway for me and other few planes.

I have a spare seat and looking for someone to share the experience (and the expenses too )

anyone interested?

I will be quite surprise if a Russian Compagny builds a temporary runway here in Canada, The Magnetic North is not that high up.

JD

He did say "geographic north pole".......

[fijdor]

Ooppss right he did.

Have fun up there.

JD

[ehwatezedoing]

Did anyone see the voice from the grave on this thread? :(

I did :(

A reminder of how unforgivable the Poles can be sometime.

[fijdor]

Eureka is the next one down (south) from Alert. You will need prior authorization to go there, Alert and Eureka I believe. South from there are Inuits villages, you will be better to have prior arrangements for fuel and accommodation and even then, you might get some surprises.

JD

[keebird]

When I was stationed in northern Greenland we had a little Cessna to fly around in for fun.
The magnetic northpole was only about 100 miles away.
All the dry compass theory from groundschool became quite visible and easier to understand:
Variation was about 80 degrees. You'd be flying north (geo north) and the compass would be pointing to mag north way over there off the wingtip.
Inclination or dip: A little abstract in theory but quite obvious up there. The compass, aligning itself with the magnetic force field, would be visibly pointing down toward the mag pole at an angle of 10 degrees or more. It was quite easy to visualize the magnetic pole as an actual point on the ground. Because of the steep inclination, turning errors were crazily amplified and the compass was basically useless for anything other than entertainment and geomagnetic science illustration.

[compressor stall]

Yes Pigboat.

It's a funny kind of wakeup call when that happens.

RIP

[cockney steve]

Surprise, Surprise,have a look on "the light side" (the "other" Forum calls this the Dark side!)
A fellow got a lot of stick, proposing to fly over the NP....
Much Umble Pie was eaten ,when he posted photos and a video ofhis amazingexploit in a 172. IIRC he removed the back seatsand fitted a ferry-tank sourcedfrom Australia!
Take the mickey at your peril, there are some people out there with balls of steel.

[9 lives]

you will be better to have prior arrangements for fuel and accommodation and even then, you might get some surprises.

Indeed. A lot of planning is required. I was as far north in mainland eastern Canada this summer with my plane. The prior planning for fuel was done through the lodge I stayed at in far north Quebec. Avgas was $6.50 per liter, and you have to hand pump it yourself. North of there, Avgas requires even more arranging, and high cost. You cannot assume its availability.

The Canadian arctic is magnificently beautiful, but wow, is it big! It's a long way to the far north just to see a whole bunch of white, and say you've been there.

In that part of the world, a small technical problem becomes very serious right away. I carried 50 pounds of tools and "support" for my plane, and that still was not enough for the engine problem I had. Fortunately, I had the problem in southern Quebec, where additional support was close at hand. If the same snag had occurred in the far north, it would have been tens of thousands of dollars cost to get going again. The only reason I ventured as far as I did, was that I went with friend in six other aircraft, so we had lots of crossover support and safety. We each carried pre agreed elements of what it would take to get any one aircraft going again.

With the immense unsupported distances between facilities, it is necessary for every leg of the flight to have a back up plan as to what to do, and where to go, if making it to the destination becomes impossible. Flying an amphibian is very reassuring in those cases. Not only is there a chance for a safe water landing in calm waters, but a slid on crash landing on very rough ground has abetter chance of success.

I would only consider a GA aircraft trip to that part of Canada as a part of a team of people and planes which I really trusted.....

[JammedStab]

I got to the North Pole once and that was in the Twin Otter. It was a single family of Americans that wanted to go see it. The father said to me, I am Mr. Nord and we want to go to the North Pole.

Because of the long distances involved, we spent several days establishing a fuel cache on the ice at approximately 88°N, flying back and forth from Eureka to this location with 6 fuel drums at a time. It would become a fueling location for many future flights up in this area during the spring. In fact, the fuel cache was really being set up for many flights in the area over the coming few weeks.

Once we had found a suitable area to be a landing strip for the fuel cache and landed there, I filled a bunch of black garbage bags with snow loaded them in the back of the DHC-6 and sat in the back as it was taxied along the landing area. It would stop every few hundred feet and I would place a couple of bags as appropriate and eventually we had a marked strip with threshold and end of strip marked by garbage bags that would not blow away.

The snow is very hard packed from the wind in this part of the world at this time of year. In fact a significant or wrongly shaped snow drift can damage a wheel-ski. One has to be cautious up there as help is far away.

Because the ice moves continuously, a homing device which can provide a signal to be displayed in the aircraft is left behind along with a device to provide GPS coordinates via satellite.

Because of the difficulty in finding a decent spot to land, it is rare that an aircraft actually touches the earth's surface at the North Pole. We were able to find a spot about 1 mile away on the mostly rugged ocean ice. However, we did fly directly over the pole. No grid nav necessary, just a GPS. I had it set to lat-long display with a camera in hand as we approached the pole as I wanted to take a snapshot of it showing 90.00.00N but that never got displayed. Perhaps 89, 59.50 or so. Then we did a 2 minute turn through 360 degree passing through 24 time zones in that time period.

I was hoping that we would chance on a Russian sub but there was no one around. Natives and Polar Bears are a long way to the south.

It was April with 24 hour sunlight but still near -30. As usual out on the ocean ice, we left one engine running as a precaution. We were only there for 15-20 minutes. Long enough for the family to play some football and have some champagn which turned to slush in their glasses.

Then we flew back to base with most of our load being fuel drums in the back of the aircraft for further refuelling. Cruise altitude was 13000 feet. Initial track toward home was near 270 degrees soon changing to 180 degrees. Back-up nav was the sun. Cloudy days are not good for ice work.