View Full Version : Gentlemen, please...

31st May 2001, 12:42
There seems to be an increasing tendency towards intolerance among these postings. Some people seem to forget that these forums are open to anybody with an interest in professional aviation, not just those of us who sit at the sharp end. That includes SLF, "wannabees" and anyone else who is "interested".

Lets try and act like the professionals that we are supposed to be, shall we? It might be worth bearing in mind that the Press monitor PPRuNe, and if they see us behaving like a bunch of unruly schoolkids, it does nothing for the image of the pilot community.

31st May 2001, 14:14
My Dear Chalky

I could not agree more - these days I always reread a posting just before sending it ( especially if my "Uncle Jack" helped write it) and have sometimes scrapped the whole thing. Whilst I am thick skinned enough to take any amoumt of childish abuse, I would be upset if I thought I had caused offence.

Some of the caustic and/or witty comments are genuinely funny but there are limits.......

31st May 2001, 14:15
Hear hear - not being a pilot but being a concerned (and I like to feel enlightened) member of the Civil Aviation community I have begun to feel somewhat discouraged by the 'only pilots should be allowed to post' attitude I come across more frequently on the forums these days.

This may be a good spot to point out that this site was listed in today's Daily Telegraph Netwatch column, so it is likely that there will be a few new people viewing this site in the near future.

"Fancy chewing the fat on air?
To prove to the dotcom world that the days of successful homespun websites are not yet over, the Professional Pilots Rumour Network clocks up a mightily impressive 10m page views each month.
Set up to provide a place where lonesome long-distance pilots can chew the fat when visiting far-flung corners of the globe, the site features news, in-depth features on airline safety and some very busy and involved discussion forums.
www.pprune.org (http://www.pprune.org)

31st May 2001, 14:23
The problem with many non pilots using the site; (with the exception of those truly professional and much respected colleagues in Engineering and ATC) is that reasoned well thought out arguments/ debates are spoiled by "Walter Mitty" dreamers like "the Guvnor".

31st May 2001, 14:24

I can only agree with your opinion if a forum would be created that would only allow postings under your proper name and statement of your function and company.

Only under these circumstances would you see true professionalism.

In good co-operation.

Smooth Trimmer

Pete Otube
31st May 2001, 14:33
Funny how "knows" proves "chalky's" point! The real answer is to have those who wish to be taken seriously on this forum sign their real name to it instead of hiding behind callsigns. I will "out" if anyone else will!

[This message has been edited by Pete Otube (edited 31 May 2001).]

31st May 2001, 14:35
knows -

I must say that I resent your suggestion that it is only non-pilots who make irrelevant postings - we all have our areas of expertise, and when things move beyond technical and procedural concerns - as they frequently do - pilots are just as capable of making irrelevant, ill informed or 'walter mitty'esque postings

[This message has been edited by bobtoldmetodoit (edited 31 May 2001).]

Final 3 Greens
31st May 2001, 15:01

As a PPL I try to restrict myself to the odd comment where I may have a valid view, but I do read the fora comprehensively and they really do help me think more professionally about the issues of flying - leading to a more professional approach in my own private flying. Recent examples include learning why setting mode Charlie helps professional pilots by avoiding TCAS alerts.

If there was a "PPrune" for management consultants (which sadly there is not) I would hope that I would be able to adopt the same spirit to all that your post promotes.

Thank you

Bouncy Landing
31st May 2001, 16:18
Im a mere PPL but really appreciate the whole forum.

It does astonish me how vitriolic the responses to posts can be sometimes. Surely everyone in aviation should atleast be civil and not tear each other apart - there are plenty of others out there to do that for us / you professional guys.

No doubt someone will flame me now!

Super Stall
31st May 2001, 16:50
All too true, far too many people now feel they have to start their posts with 'Please don't shoot me down but..., and end with 'its just my humble opinion, thats all'.

I feel some people are now avoiding posting for fear of 'put downs' and being dragged into endless arguements that go round in circles.

[This message has been edited by Super Stall (edited 31 May 2001).]

31st May 2001, 18:06
PeteOtube: fair point, but as is well known, the high and the mighty of airlines and airport management also view these pages, (I suppose they've got to learn the truth somehwere http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/tongue.gif), and if opinions were reliant on posting your real name, I think there would be very little worth reading on the site.
;) ;) ;)

It wasn't me.

dallas dude
31st May 2001, 18:34
If you think about it, this site is like a sieve. Over a fairly short period of time some of the nutcases become evident and then it's just a matter of filtering these posters out of the equation, i.e. if you don't mind they don't matter.

No need to mention names. If we all agreed all the time we'd have to find something else to do (or the wife/partner would find it for us!).

I'm sure most folks on this site have put something they wish they could retract but that's ok. It's the ones' that do it all the time that just need to be ignored. Eventually they'll find someone else to bore (once they've run out of people in the pub to impress).


31st May 2001, 18:38
Well after all it is the Professional PILOTS Rumor Network isn't it?

Secret Squirrel
31st May 2001, 19:00

Another, "this is how you should behave" thread. Are some of us totally devoid of humour altogether? Is it not enough that we already lead strictly regimented professional lives? Do we also have to be subjected to the PC brigade in our spare time? Do we have to be constantly told what our opinions should be? And, more to the point, that if we have an opinion, we should keep it to ourselves lest we offend someone unnecessarily?

If someone has voiced an opinion concerning non aviation personnel on this website, then they must have their reasons and should be allowed to express that opinion. If you or I don't like that opinion, then we should respect their right to say so.

In point of fact, Chalky, this is a prime example of why SOME non aviation people upset the applecart: WHAT DOES THIS HAVE TO DO WITH RUMOURS & NEWS???

Very funny, Scotty. Now beam up my clothes!

31st May 2001, 19:15
Having been the recipient of a few insults myself, I have to say that it's a small price to pay for the ability to express my opinion.

I'm well aware that others may disagree with me - it's just a shame if some of those respond in an immature manner.

Best thing to do is ignore 'em and don't respond in kind: after all - if someone has a valid point of view they will stand by it and defend with a reasoned argument, won't they? So the insults are a form of admission of defeat.

So bring it on guys - but remember that insults always say much more about the insulter than the insultee.

Capt PPRuNe
31st May 2001, 19:50
Nice to see the Telegraph mention PPRuNe. As for the discussion, this rears its head every few months and we all have to go through the motions of reiterating how much more pleasant it is when we all act in a civilised manner.

Experience shows that most regular readers are able to filter out the more extreme postings and have the intelligence to avoid being baited by the regular wind-up merchants. Unfortunately there are always a few who cannot resist entering the fray and diverting a topic off course with counter slagging which, as most of us know just leads nowhere and eventually gets a thread closed or moved to a more obscure part of the forums.

To update you on the stats, we now have over 31,000 registered users. Over 35,000 people visit this website every day from all over the world. Over 10 million pages are viewed every month of which over 6 million have readable content. For the techies, the new server is using just under 140Gb of bandwidth every month and the trend shows a steady increase.

When the site first started I found that on average only 5% of registered users ever posted anything and if that figure is still true then only about 1550 of you ever post here whilst the rest only read. Last month there were 1,078,753 visitors to the site worldwide and this month that figure is up by over 6%.

Some anecdotal evidence of how influential PPRuNe has become was related to me recently by a senior management person who told me that several of their junior managers were rating their performance by what type of coments were being made about them and their service on PPRuNe! Also, earlier this year Robin Lloyd (PPRuNe Towers) and myself were invited to talk at the Flight International Crew management Conference held this year in London. Almost all of the delegates knew of the website and most were aware of what is discussed on it. PPRuNe was also referred to in several of the presentations.

Knowing that PPRuNe has some sort of influence means that the work of the moderators is even more important than ever and whilst we try to avoid intervention, it still becomes necessary when a few individuals don't have the common courtesy to realise that it is possible to have frank and lively discussion without resorting to immature insults and xenophobic rhetoric.

Overall, the success of the website is the diversity of views and experience of the contributors. It will never be perfect and there will always be newcomers who step into the fray without realising how painful that can be especially if they are of a more sensitive personality and there will also be 'regulars' who don't realise that they are extremely irritating to the majority, but then that's just a reflection of society in general.

This is still the most widely read professional aviation website and as long as the majority of readers are able to sort out the wheat from the chaff it will continue to inform and entertain. There are no professional staff writers here but thankfully some of you should have missed your vocation and manage to keep most of the threads exciting and witty. Thank you.

Capt PPRuNe
aka Danny Fyne
The Professional Pilots RUmour NEtwork

31st May 2001, 20:24
Secret Squirrel

Another, "this is how you should behave" thread. Are some of us totally devoid of humour altogether>>

I don't think humour has much to do with a supposed "professional" slagging off someone with whom he doesn't share an viewpoint.

As someone once said, "opinions are like noses, everyone's got one", and surely everyone is entitled to express it in a civil manner without being "flamed" in the way that some people are herein. A constructive response is usually better received than a destructive one.

PS: It may not be "rumour or news", but Danny hasn't moved it, so presumably he's satisfied!! :)

31st May 2001, 20:54
i agree, i am a wannabe but have noticed how there appear to be many users waiting to pounce like a pack of hungry wolves ready to rip anybody apart. Not very pleasant! This particular attitude has stopped me from posting things in this forum for the fear of ridicule from the more expirienced flight personnel.

beaver eager
31st May 2001, 21:06
It's a tough old world out there eagerbeaver, you'll need to lose your fear of speaking up a bit before you graduate from being a wannabe.

There have been some pretty serious accidents allowed to happen because a crew member was too sheepish to voice an opinion!

P.S. Don't take this post to heart too much, I only really made it to get my pseudonym in a post next to yours! :)

The humble line pilot, having covered its back so often, at last made the first step on the evolutionary ladder that was to eventually become... a tortoise!

Big Red ' L '
31st May 2001, 21:07
Danny What do you think about people like myself who use this site. I am a Train driver and am taking my PPL at the moment. Sometime in the future, i might go for some kind of airline/cargo job, but i am not sure when. This site to me is invaluable, has answered many questions and has given me some valuble information too. It has helped me decide where my future lies and that is in aviation, hopefully as a pilot somewhere.
Also, i have made some good friends and chatted to loads of good, intelligent and witty people through the chat room, another great part of this site. So, as an 'outsider' i wonder if you mind people like myself contributing to your most excellent site. It really is something to be proud of and a big drink will be bought for you at the Gatbash....Well done to yourself and the other moderators for the time you give to this site. Many thanks.

The Guvnor
31st May 2001, 21:37
As someone who's come in for a fair amount of sl*gging, I'd like to point out that just coz you don't agree with something (eg bonding, pay increases, Airbus, Boeing, the lifestyle of your FO)doesn't make it any less factual. Attacking personalities rather than issues - and I'm as guilty of that as any - isn't a good debating tactic; and shows weakness.

Overall, the quality of postings remains fairly good - though I have noticed recently that a lot of the 'old gang' have gone away; when asked why, they usually cite some of the more puerile postings as a reason for doing so.

dallas dude
31st May 2001, 22:18
Big Red L,

Remember, every one of us started with a first step on the aviation ladder (or a version thereof).

The difficult part is to continue.

Good luck to you. Keep at it!


Capt PPRuNe
31st May 2001, 22:24
And how many of us wanted to be train drivers before we wanted to become pilots?

Capt PPRuNe
aka Danny Fyne
The Professional Pilots RUmour NEtwork

31st May 2001, 22:34
I think that I have to confess: I wanted to drive an Ambulance yes trains too, Steam engines in particular. Wanted to be a Ship Captain. Hey donīt forget that big machine that had blinking lights and cleaned the street with a lot of noise and dust flying around. Most impressive sight for a 3 year old.
Still since I was younger than I cna remember I have wanted to fly, still do.
I have a picture where I read (eat) a Flight International. I was about the size of a fire extinguisher at the time.
For me anything that moves and makes noise is intersting.

31st May 2001, 23:25

Times have changed. Gone are the days of the 'old' rumour network, where no-one cared if you were a professional pilot or not. The only criteria was a damn good rumour had to be posted. ;)

Nah, nowadays the pros are far too stressed out, not enough money and working far too hard. They get very upset when a non-professional pilot posts on THEIR bulletin board. How dare we have the cheek. :)

If you even dare post a RUMOUR about one of THEIR companies, you'd better back it up with FACTS or you will be in serious trouble. Of course this rule can be ignored, only if you are a resident professional pilot with the said outfit. http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/tongue.gif

Another point, is NEVER make a post that does not agree with their opinion. If you are nuts enough to do so, you'd better be in a flame and bullet proof suit, cause they will be ready with the flame-throwers and artillery. http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/eek.gif

Nearly forgot the golden rule. Any person who dare posts on this board, must ensure that the spelling and grammar is perfect. Any deviation from this rule will result with a bombardment of posts pointing out the said errors. It will also be deemed that the original post is null and void, regardless of the rumour or facts that have been posted. :)

1st Jun 2001, 00:00
If you have an opinion - then post it - and ignore insulting comments about it.
These insults/attacks will always pop up. There is no way to avoid these if you chose speak up in public.
Speak up - take the good and the bad - and let life pass happily onwards.

Always remember that the same guy who "attacks" your written words, might well agree with you if you were face to face and could use that far more powerfull way of communicating your message.
Everyone knows that in writing it's almost impossible to express your opinion like you can do by mouth, ears, body- and facial expressions.
What you meant to express in writing easily triggers a total other response than expected.

Let's just continue this fine site..

No 1
1st Jun 2001, 00:10

Secret Squirrel
1st Jun 2001, 04:38

The trouble is that what to you and/or me might seem to be a trivial subject or opinion, in others will stir a volcanic eruption of emotions. Add to this that someone may have had a bad day/recent incursion into their lives concerning this subject or that, or simply that a particular phrase or innocent comment be misunderstood (or understood correctly!) and you have all you ingredients for a good slagging match.

Whilst I agree with most of Danny's views on how we should conduct ourselves with regards to racial comments and personal attacks, even potentially litigious comments designed to inflame, I do feel that these are phrases that come too readily to some people's minds. Some people are naturally contentious and provocative; some are naturally good at saying the most with the least words; and some are brilliant at making fools of themselves by what they print. Personally I would not be without one or t'other.

I have been on Pprune for over a year now ( I was Battery No Charge) and I enjoy the heated debates much more so than the quiet reserved ones. I, for one, enjoy the cut and thrust of argument and counterargument and must admit to being somewhat contentious myself at times. It brings the worst and the best out in people. Within the bounds of Pprune's obscenity rules, this, IMHO, is part of what makes this website fun.

Some people ask for a slagging off, constructively or otherwise; and some people learn to temper their material as a result.

Look at The Guvnor. He knows that some of his opinions are going to incite a reaction and he more often than not is not disappointed. Personally, I can't even be bothered to argue with him on here because his opinions are not worth my time; but I'm sure he loves every post directed at him, pleasant or otherwise. If nothing else it gives him something to get his teeth into, seeing as I doubt he'll ever get anyone to work for him.

As Danny says, this subject rears its head so often these days. If you'd been here in the days of....dare I mention his name....Capt Ed then you'd see how trivial these threads seem. The reason it draws my attention is that as with so many social issues today, it seems as if when you get rid of really nasty people like Ed, people get bored and try to dramatise anything they can. IMHO it leads to an oversensitive and humourless society.

Very funny, Scotty. Now beam up my clothes!

Pedal To The Metal
1st Jun 2001, 10:07
I have read the forums on PPRuNe for a very long time, and have only just recently begun to contribute.

The Best thing about PPRuNe is the DIVERSITY of posts, most are informative, a few self-indulgent, and the odd one petty.

But isn't that a reflection of our society.
It would be a pretty boring forum without different personalities and formats.

And if you don't want to read the crap, move to the next thread.

1st Jun 2001, 11:24
.......and a good dose of pprune keeps you regular ;)

It wasn't me.

1st Jun 2001, 15:51
Obvoiusly you have some of confused with somebody who gives a %$#@

Capt PPRuNe
1st Jun 2001, 16:04
For those that are interested, the stats for May were:

1,116,637 visitors. (Over 36,000 visitors a day)
141,000 unique IP addresses.
11,062,436 pages served.
137.7Gb bandwidth used.

Capt PPRuNe
aka Danny Fyne
The Professional Pilots RUmour NEtwork

1st Jun 2001, 16:39
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size="2">

141,000 unique IP addresses.


Doesn't mean you've got 141,000 users :)

Lots of people will get their IP address assigned by DHCP or something similar (especially when dialing in on a modem).

Capt PPRuNe
1st Jun 2001, 16:48
Not necessarily. If the ISP assigns an address more than one user could get it so in fact there could in theory be more than 141,000 readers.

Eg. ISP X has 10 modems a - j. User 1 logs on and is assigned modem a so system logs modem a as one IP address. User 2 logs in and is assigned modem b so system logs b as another IP. User 1 logs off and user 3 logs on and is assigned modem a so system logs a again.

3 users but only 2 IP addresses!

Difficult to say though. Could work other way round too so suppose it evens out.

Lies, damn lies and statistics!

Capt PPRuNe
aka Danny Fyne
The Professional Pilots RUmour NEtwork

[This message has been edited by Capt PPRuNe (edited 01 June 2001).]

1st Jun 2001, 17:11
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size="2">
Lies, damn lies and statistics!

Tell it, brother ;) :) :)

You splitter
1st Jun 2001, 18:02
All in all most people can 'discuss' a topic or rumour with reasoned well thought out arguments. Sometimes those people, for whatever reason, will make posts out of character and regret what they have said later. I know I am one of those people.

However there does seem to be a slight increase in this 'you're not a pilot so your opinion is wrong (or dosn't count)' attitude.

Never mind Pprune is still a great site!
And yes how fondly I remember the days of Capt.Ed & his fan club!!!

1st Jun 2001, 18:37
Well a posting that certainly caught Danny's attention, and why not. Pprune has proved to be a most addictive site to me, having joined some time ago I have found myself drawn to it more and more. It is entertaining, informative, witty, abusive at times, interactive and in short can be a marvelous time waster.
I have also picked up valuable information on it and formed, probably wildly inaccuarate pictures of people, who like me are interested in Aviation and appear in the site.
Our common interest would seem to be the glue that hold this site together. Whether we're in it or simply fascinated by the air above us and mans ability to move into and through it. We seem to be endlessly curious about it and our fellow travellers around us. Most seem generaly ready for a bit of a crack, and there will always be a Secret Squirral around to be bored 'yawn' or bridle at others opinions. Go and find your nuts if your bored with what's being expressed.
Spelling and punctuation can be a function of lubrication and late night postings often being edited later, or not as the mood takes. It's a great site and hats off to the gent who made it all possible, Thanks Danny.

1st Jun 2001, 19:05
As a non-pilot contributor, but one who knows atc and airline ops through professional & personal life, i enjoy the forum, both contributing and reading posts.

Even the so called purial comments are quiet often fun to read. And whem you've had enough, then one can always but out.

A couple of thoughts or comments however:

- what would change to Pprune as a whole, if a separate pilots-only forum was established ?
- would non-pilots still read/contribute, when they couldn't access the pilot-only forums ? And would pilots still read/contribute to those remaining "open" forums ?
- what effect do the known (as opposed to anonymous) contributors have to the forum, esp. when considering the purial/personal attacks...?
- I don't mind various attacks, seeing as 99% of Pprune-ers don't know me. But those who have established identity, such as Guv, are at more rick from such attacks...

Food for thought - or just drivel...?


1st Jun 2001, 19:10
Capt. Pprune , well done for creating Pprune.

For someone who operates in the airline industry in a very specialised role this is an excellent forum for picking up opinions, thoughts, ideas and criticisms regarding the industry.

I must confess that a number of our Duty Managers are now addicted to reading it and we enjoy taking part in its open and often frank exchanges as well as having a laugh.

A number of people who I know in the industry read it but never admit 'openly' about coming here.

It is a tremendous credit to Pprune that it is so highly thought of - so please keep up the good work !

1st Jun 2001, 19:58
This is an old chesnut, no doubt it will appear again. I've contributed in various guises for a while now. I change identities because people form opinions of me based on what I write as opposed to what I actually meant to say. They then jump on any comment I make and re-interpret it as they wish. I try to remain very anonymous because only then can I try to express what I REALLY think. If we all used our own identities we would be restricted to banal and inoffensive comments for fear of retribution. Interestingly despite this we do give away a lot of info which a regular reader with a bit of detective work could work out who you and work for. Amusingly I received E-Mails from people who concluded that I was with various airlines in various positions. This is partly the reason I change identity every now and then, that plus the fact that you can be pigeonholed by the hotheads as a right wing leftie, racist, sexist feminist liberal reactionary because you happen to disagree with someone.
But, despite all that, I don't mind whether they agree with me or disagree with as long as they don't ignore me. I hate being ignored. That's the best way to deal with the nuts.
The pilots - non pilots thing is ridiculous. I am a pilot, professionally qualified but not working as such, yet. In some pilots eyes this disqualifies me from commenting on certain topics. Yet from working in the business for a number of years, I sometimes have a clearer view of a situation than a working pilot. The same applies to other people in ground jobs. Of course, no pilot feels disqualified from commenting on other peoples jobs, do they? Take each contributors statements as they come. It's easy to spot the fakes.

1st Jun 2001, 22:24
I actually enjoy the interplay between the antagonistic "posters" on the threads. Many times I have been in stitches reading them :)
I think it's generally tongue in cheek, although some of them get a bit close to the bone.

Still, if your feelings are hurt by criticisms whether well intentioned or not, it's time to develop a thicker skin.

You pilots seem to "slag" us ground types off quite a bit...it's only fair that we should be given the opportunity to resond in kind :)

Remember if you can't take a joke, you shouldn't have joined!

turn the plane! turn the plane!

2nd Jun 2001, 02:45
Yes..thanks indeed for creating Pprune...been needed for a long time, and the many hard hours of work and funds involved are GREATLY appreciated..and thanks again IB57 for your "rational" observations...good on ya Danny...and moderators...drinks on me...(if my wife lets me to a Pprune bash)..

2nd Jun 2001, 04:00
The pilots only forum should be called 'Arrogant a**holes only forum'. Why can't other people express their opinions on what we do? It's a great way for them to learn more about what pilots do, and for pilots to learn how they can do it better. My only complaint about pprune is that I've been reading it for two hours, I think my eyes are bleeding, and its gotta be time for bed... or maybe I'll just check that other thread again...! Sad indeed.

Ignition Override
2nd Jun 2001, 08:10
Very good points from Chalky and others.

In my humble opinion, Wing Commander Prune and his fellow Commanders/Lieutenants have the big picture, as much as anyone else here. It must be a sort of "electronic warfare" mission for them! Not to minimize those who fly in the various actual threat environments. One B-757 Captain, who worked in Air Force "covert communications" before going to pilot tng many years ago said that he never participated in Internet chat or any forum etc. "Why?", I asked. "There are too many psychos out there", he told me. Anyway, we are all very fortunate that this website has survived, despite threats from unbalanced or ruthless individuals. Where else can we read so many viewpoints regarding how pilots around the world react to a given cockpit or cabin situation?

Excrewingbod described what happens when grammatical errors take place. Some are not a result of drinking and typing.

Big Red L: One of my grandfathers was a locomotive engineer in the US.

Some of my remarks sound very repetitive, but some peoples' comments I attempt to embellish, question or contradict, not the individuals.

[This message has been edited by Ignition Override (edited 02 June 2001).]

[This message has been edited by Ignition Override (edited 02 June 2001).]