Radioactive fallout and flights into Japan

[The Iceman]

Has anybody seen any notams regarding possible radioactive material in the atmosphere as a result of any leaks at the Fukushima nuclear power plant?

The following document, chapter 9, has some relevant information.

ICAO Doc 9691 (http://www.paris.icao.int/news/pdf/9691.pdf)

[411A]

Looking for an excuse not to go...are you?:}

[OverRun]

At the risk of sticking my neck out (not that I have ever worried too much about that), the following CNN link gives a different and very relaxed look at the problem. He (the expert) sounds genuinely convincing that the problem is containable. At the CNN page, head towards the bottom and click the "Nuclear expert: this is no Chernobyl"
CNN link (http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/asiapcf/03/13/japan.nuclear.reactors/)

[aviatorhi]

When the containment units breach I'll get worried, otherwise I'd have to start avoiding my microwave as well.

[Less Hair]

Well at least the US Navy is repositioning their 7th fleet out of the winds from the plant. Can't be entirely normal. Now that the second unit blew up there might even be some plutonium envolved.

Seventh Fleet Repositions Ships after Contamination Detected (http://www.navy.mil/search/print.asp?story_id=59065&VIRIN=&imagetype=0&page=1)

[gbour]

Are flights to/in Japan in any potential danger? Austrian seems to think so....

Vienna - Austrian Airlines will have army radiation experts on its flights to Tokyo from Monday, the Defense Ministry said.
The experts will measure radiation levels during landing in Japan and report any unusual findings, the ministry said.
Austrian Airlines said it would introduce a stopover in Seoul on its Tokyo flights, in order to reduce the time that the crew has to spend in Japan.

Gimmick or meaningful precaution?

[aterpster]

gbour:

Gimmick or meaningful precaution?

Sounds like a greenie protest to me. The affected plants are not close to Tokyo at all.

[Less Hair]

pls see
http://www.pprune.org/questions/445515-radioactive-fallout-flights-into-japan.html#post6305621

[Bokkenrijder]

Please forgive me for not for 100% trusting some of the the politicians and regulators downplaying all of this. :hmm:

With the prevailing westerly jet streams and winds, won't many trans-Pacific flights will be smack in the middle (read: downwind) of any possible nuclear fall out?

[Mike-Bracknell]

gbour:



Sounds like a greenie protest to me. The affected plants are not close to Tokyo at all.

Depends totally on which way the winds are blowing. The plants are 140km away, which is less than the distance between Chernobyl and Belarus, yet Belarus was badly affected by fallout - as (to a much lesser extent) was Sweden, and the UK (both thousands of miles away) in terms of sheep etc.

Besides, it sounds like the product of an over-active marketing and H&S dept to me.

[aterpster]

Mike-Bracknell:
　
Chernobyl had no containment whatsoever and the situation was worst-case.

I would trust the Japanese authorities much more than some Austrian with an axe to grind.

In any case, people shouldn't be travelling to Japan unless they are on essential, disaster-related business.

[Pelikanpete]

It's impossible to hide a radiation leak because anyone with a Geiger Counter will be able to detect it straight away. Geiger Counters are widely available at universities, hospitals, through the military and many other organisations.

The current levels being measured at the actual nuclear site where radiation levels are highest is currently equivalent to the dose received during a chest x-ray. So negligible.

The reactors at risk were built in 1971 (using 1960's knowledge) so feature a design that is not used on newer reactors. The main problem is that even though the fuel rods have been withdrawn from the reactor there is still sufficient heat being produced by the natural radioactive decay of the fuel materials that a constant circulation of coolant is needed to prevent overheating. Coolant circulation has stopped due to failure of the pumps and backup systems so the coolant around the rods has turned to very high pressure, superheated steam (and some hydrogen) and had to be deliberately vented which caused an explosion (but no damage to the actual reactors). If the fuel rods get too hot there is a small chance that they may melt and fall into the bottom of the currently undamaged reactor containers and cause a breech (by melting through the steel) which may then actually cause a genuine contamination problem. Engineers are rigging functioning pumps and using seawater to prevent the meltdown. Seawater was a last resort because it will mean that the reactors cannot be used again.

My opinion only:

Prognosis - risk of a wide spread or dangerous contamination is very low but worth taking precautions over.

How to avoid in the future? - phase out obsolete power stations and replace with newer and safer versions. Nuclear power is still the only real way of providing our ever growing energy needs whilst having a minimal effect on the environment. The Sun and entire core of this planet is one huge molten radioactive fusion reaction anyway and radiation is always around us naturally. We need to get over our paranoia about radioactivity and nuclear power and harness natures energy gift to us and stop burning as much non-renewable and polluting fossil fuels.

[Mike-Bracknell]

My point was that it's not too far away to be affected *IF* the radiation leak was dangerous.....which i'm pretty confident is not the case.

Travel to/from Japan, whilst it's not advisable to the affected areas, shouldn't be banned totally as that would also negatively affect their economy in a big way.

[Basil]

PP,
radiation levels are highest is currently equivalent to the dose received during a chest x-ray
Over what time period?

[411A]

Nuclear power is still the only real way of providing our ever growing energy needs whilst having a minimal effect on the environment. The Sun and entire core of this planet is one huge molten radioactive fusion reaction anyway and radiation is always around us naturally. We need to get over our paranoia about radioactivity and nuclear power and harness natures energy gift to us and stop burning as much non-renewable and polluting fossil fuels.

Well said.

[crj705]

I would trust the Japanese authorities much more than some Austrian with an axe to grind.

Not sure I would agree with that. The Japanese authorities don't have a great history of honesty in the previous nuclear accidents. Don't forget, they will attempt to save face at all cost.

Being only about 200km from the reactor I am more than a little concerned. However, unless there is a catastrophic failure of the containment building I think we are relatively safe.....

In any case, people shouldn't be travelling to Japan unless they are on essential, disaster-related business.

South of Tokyo should be fine... But I would avoid the Tokyo area at all costs. A large number of the trains are still out of operation and the city is just a mess because of it. Oversold flights are leaving with 200+ seats open because people can't get to the airport.

[cortilla]

Just a couple of points of order:

The centre of the earth is not a fusion reaction. It's probably mainly molten iron and nickel and possibly some oxygen. But it's far too cold to be a fusion reaction.

Yes the sun is one great big fusion reaction. But a) the sun is approximately 150 million kilometres away from us. b) nuclear fusion is a relatively 'clean' reaction and c) we can't do it on a commercially viable scale at the moment. The last time i had a good read on nuclear fusion reactions we'd only sustained one for fractions of a second.

What's happening in Japan is a possible catastrophic fission event.

Whether nuclear fission is really a viable power source is open to massive debate.

What austrian airlines is probably doing is a PR excercise to reassure their passengers.

[robertbartsch]

While researching the latest news on the nuclear power plant problems in Japan, I read a piece about the '86 Chernobal accident that said radioactive material was spread around Europe and the world in the upper atmoshere.

Are there contingency plans to use aircraft to monitor exposure risks? If not, how would radioactive material be tracked?

Thx...

[lomapaseo]

In any case, people shouldn't be travelling to Japan unless they are on essential, disaster-related business.

That kind of scare tactic is a sure fire way to shut down the economy. Best left to government authorities.:=

[grumpyoldgeek]

The US and probably every other nuclear power in the world has aircraft and procedures for monitoring radioactive plumes. Not only can they detect and measure radioactivity levels, they can analyze the nature of the radioactivity and make a well-informed guess as to it's source, half-life and other things.

This was originally developed during the Cold War to track Soviet atmospheric tests.

[jcjeant]

Hi,

Pelikanpete
How to avoid in the future? - phase out obsolete power stations and replace with newer and safer versions. Some are waiting you for design safer versions :)
The Japan nuclear power plants use the safest technology available and build with the safest design against quakes .. and age is not a argument .. maintenance .. yes.
Some can also argue about the location of those power plants ......

[glad rag]

How old are the plants in question?

[ante123]

Fukushima I was open almost exactly 40 years ago, on March 26 1971, built 4 years before that.

[Feline]

I think the lesson here is that the plants survived the earthquake(s) - it's the tsunami which has caused the real problems (standby diesel generators were coping well with pumping coolant - but not so well after they got flooded).

[jcjeant]

Hi,

I think the lesson here is that the plants survived the earthquake(s) - it's the tsunami which has caused the real problems (standby diesel generators were coping well with pumping coolant - but not so well after they got flooded).

Ships builders are more smart...
Emergency generator(s) always situated at the most high possible place in the ship ... not under the waterline (at least for commercial ships) :)

[BRE]

LH have added a technical stop at ICN to their MUC and FRA to NRT flights and also on the way back.

NRT is to the NE of Tokyo, i.e. closer to Fukushima, so that might rob some pilots of their sleep. What is more, there are only so many Hotel beds close to the airport, and maybe their crew hotel was further out, making transit completely unpredictable.

[Less Hair]

Austrian has had military NBC-experts onboard their flights measuring the radiation when approaching Tokyo. German airport fire bigades at EEDF and EDDM checked returning LH aircraft for radiation with no result.

Lufthansa has halted it's Narita flights today. Serving only other japanese destinations.

Lufthansa: Sonderflugplan nach Japan - FLUG REVUE (http://www.flugrevue.de/de/zivilluftfahrt/airlines-flugbetrieb/lufthansa-sonderflugplan-nach-japan.43326.htm)

[The SSK]

Relevant information will be posted on the Eurocontrol NOP site - see top right, although if that's supposed to be a link it doesn't open for me.
https://www.cfmu.eurocontrol.int/PUBPORTAL/gateway/spec/index.html

Interestingly, information should be diffused through the VAAC (Volcanic Ash Advisory Centre) system which caused so many headaches last April, when the London VAAC was being over-zealous. It seems to be the opposite case with the Tokyo VAAC this time around.

[Pelikanpete]

Jcjeant - there are newer and safer reactor designs than Fukushima (being used in Japan and other countries). In 40 years the technology has made quite a few advances. With Fukushima, the fuel rods were automatically withdrawn from the reactor core and the nuclear reaction has been stopped (unlike what happened in Chernobyl). However, due to the heat produced by natural radioactive decay the rods continue to produce large amounts of heat for some time. This means that even when the reactor has been shut down, coolant must still be circulated at all times to avoid overheating. The coolant circulation pumps and backups failed and the reactor coolant did overheat. More modern reactors have a design that allows sufficient cooling of heat produced by natural decay without the need for the circulation pumps to work. Meaning that this problem would not have happened.

Cortilla - The Earths core is something that scientists are still theorising on (Dynamo Theory, Georeactor etc.). As you are being pedantic - there is not actually a fusion reaction but the core is highly radioactive and the heat is due to radioactive decay. The point being that radiation and nuclear reactions are part of everyday nature and essential to our planet sustaining life. We are all being constantly exposed to the earths background radiation and always have been. Those living in parts of Cornwall (which has high level of natural radioactivity) are probably exposed more than those living in Fukushima during the last few days.

Basil - that dose is over an hour and if outside close to the source at the worst time (ie. during the steam leak). Not good but not especially bad considering all the pollution and chemicals we expose ourselves to daily.

[robertbartsch]

I lived in Japan for nearly 3 years during the last decade. The government and high ranking company officals are not good at communicating bad news.

I don't beleive the nuclear plants survived the quakes. It seems apparent that the reactors in question have not been able to hold coolant water since the quakes that started last Friday. This is likley a result of cracked cooling pipes leading into and out of the steel reactor containment structures.

It is a known risk that pipes that carry nuclear material become brittle over time and the quake likely cause these to fall.

Yes, the tittle wave was a factor in several failed coolant systems but it is not the only cause.

One thing is certain; the current designs in Japan and other places worldwide are NOT safe.

[Wxgeek]

I've created Google Earth Layer showing the locations of the nuclear power plants in question. Fukushima has major problems and the other 2 are less serious.

There are radius circles at 50, 100 and 200kms around each plant and weather/surface wind links that will be useful if you are down in NRT, about 200kms away. There is also an interesting Google Earth layer put out by the USGS on the incidents page link.

Japan Nuclear Incident Layer (https://docs.google.com/uc?id=0B1z470ZO9UsKNjFjZGFiZWYtODg0NS00MmE2LTk1ZGItMGZkMGQ5M TYyNTQ0&export=download&hl=en) - Google Earth required

Good luck to all if you are in the area.

[robertbartsch]

CNN is reporting that flights are being diverted around the affected plant.

Handful of 'heroes' battles to keep nuclear plant under control - CNN.com (http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/asiapcf/03/15/japan.nuclear.reactors/index.html?hpt=T1)#

[Basil]

jcjeant,
Emergency generator(s) always situated at the most high possible place in the ship
Good point. In my experience in the funnel housing or adjacent deckhouse.
Perhaps something like that will now become another design requirement for nuclear power stations.
Safety requirements are, regrettably, usually learnt the hard way.

[411A]

Perhaps something like that will now become another design requirement for nuclear power stations.

Already done at many (but not all) nuclear power plants in the USA.