View Full Version : A pilot’s quest to remain at the top
a330pilotcanada
12th Mar 2011, 13:32
Good Morning All:
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A pilot’s quest to remain at the top
BRENT JANG — TRANSPORTATION REPORTER
From Saturday's Globe and Mail
Published Friday, Mar. 11, 2011 7:30PM EST
23 comments (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe-investor/a-pilots-quest-to-remain-at-the-top/article1939277/comments/)
He’s No. 1. His name is Michael Ennis, and the Air Canada (AC.B-T (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe-investor/a-pilots-quest-to-remain-at-the-top/article1939277/)2.800.093.32%) captain is at the very top of the seniority list of the airline’s 3,039 pilots. That means he has one of the best jobs in Canadian aviation, choosing the destinations he wants to fly on the carrier’s wide-body Boeing 777s.
The trouble is that he will turn 60 in April, and under the collective agreement between the airline and the Air Canada Pilots Association, he will be forced out of his job on May 1.
In this latest chapter in the long-running battle over the airline’s controversial mandatory-retirement policy, Mr. Ennis filed a complaint Friday with the Canada Industrial Relations Board, arguing that the union is declining to represent him in his quest to stay No. 1 at Air Canada until he turns 65.
Seniority is crucial because it determines which pilots win better-paid assignments on larger planes, and sets priorities for vacation time.
Knowing that Air Canada’s mandatory-retirement rule won’t be changing any time soon, Mr. Ennis has landed a job with Istanbul-based Turkish Airlines. He will start May 2, one day after he is formally removed from Air Canada’s pilot seniority list.
For Mr. Ennis, the assignment with Turkish Airlines will be a step down in pay and prestige, but he is adamant about working beyond 60. “My first choice is to stay with Air Canada,” he said in an interview from his home in Oakville, Ont., before heading for a workout at a local gym. “I’m in good shape. Everybody says I don’t look like I’m turning 60, for sure.”
Mr. Ennis, who started at Air Canada shortly after his 21st birthday in 1972, loves his job. “I’m No. 1, so I go wherever I want,” he said, listing some of the routes he flies – Hong Kong, Beijing, Tokyo, Santiago, Buenos Aires, Sao Paulo, London, Paris and Frankfurt.
Air Canada and Turkish Airlines are both members of the Star Alliance of global carriers, but it just won’t be same with the new employer, he said.
“It’s not right that I have to leave Canada,” Mr. Ennis said. “The world has changed, and many other airlines have changed it to retiring at age 65, but not Air Canada.”
Through Internet-based phone services such as Skype, he plans to stay in touch with his wife, Barbara, a former Air Canada flight attendant, and their son Ben, 27, and daughter Katie, 24.
Pilots with Mr. Ennis’s experience earn $230,000 a year and qualify for a pension of $10,000 a month if they retire at age 60. At Turkish Airlines, it is estimated that he will earn $150,000 annually.
“My wife knows that I would be a wreck if I stopped working,” said Mr. Ennis, who rose to the top of Air Canada’s seniority rankings in February, 2010, and has been in the top 10 for the past four years.
But his wish to stay in the job is opposed by many of his colleagues. Capt. Cory Brown, 33, said extending the retirement age to 65 will penalize younger pilots.
“Seniority is your entire life because seniority affects everything. When these older pilots say they want to work past the age of 60, it’s going to affect my lifestyle,” said Mr. Brown, who flies the 93-seat Embraer jet for Air Canada, mostly on routes within North America.
The Ontario-based pilot, who earned $113,000 last year, said older pilots should view it as their duty to “pass the torch” to younger colleagues.
Union officials argue that an internal survey of Air Canada pilots last year showed that 82 per cent of the respondents favoured keeping the retirement age at 60 or younger.
A group called the Fly Past 60 Coalition, however, is backing Mr. Ennis in his fight against Air Canada and the union representing the airline’s pilots. Raymond Hall, a lawyer and retired Air Canada pilot who heads the coalition, said there are more than 150 other retired pilots seeking to fly again.
Mr. Hall filed the complaint Friday to the Canada Industrial Relations Board on behalf of Mr. Ennis and two other pilots who will also soon turn 60, Brad Ellis and Andrew Clark, who allege that their union unfairly refused to initiate grievances. The union rejects the allegations and plans to respond.
The International Civil Aviation Organization allows a pilot aged 60 to 65 to be in the cockpit on overseas flights, as long as the other pilot is under 60.
clunckdriver
12th Mar 2011, 15:22
"Joined AC at 21? Wonder how that hapened? I remember now, he was just so gifted that AC wanted him at age ten, but the child labour laws wouldnt allow it! {Thanks daddy!}
engfireleft
12th Mar 2011, 16:02
All of the commentators slagging this man for his unfettered greed have completely ignored two facts:
1. Mandatory retirement is age discrimination in Canada now, and;
2. They have the ability to change the pay system to adapt to this new reality.
When those two facts penetrate their craniums maybe then they'll stop acting like a bunch of helpless victims and do something useful to adapt to the inescapable way things are.
I admire his desire to keep flying, but I'm not sure this is the best story to use to help gain public sympathy for the over 60 cause at Air Canada. How many Canadians can say they've had a 39 year career at the same company and can retire at 60 with an indexed six figure pension? I know it's not relevant in the legal sense, but that doesn't make it an easy sell.
clunckdriver
12th Mar 2011, 18:59
As a retiree, still flying at 73, I just cant figure why these folks want to keep flying for the SAME outfit, are they frightened to leave the big corporation "womb" and afraid of demonstating their skills under a different culture? If this chap joined at 21 he really hasnt seen anything outside of Air Canada, a fine place to work and fly for sure but there is lots to be seen on the "outside". Since I retired I have been endorsed on three types not flown before and enjoy going to sim to demostrate that at least some of the grey matter still works, having said that I do intend to pull the pin fairly soon and am busy training my relpacement.Some of the most rewarding flying done since leaving "Big Red" has been charity work, flying Cancer patients for treatment, sure puts things in perspective when one feels hard done by, maybe he should try somthing like this for a change of scene.
a330pilotcanada
12th Mar 2011, 20:32
The following is a sample of the readership from the Globe and Mail.
If this is an average response I would be ashamed to wear a Air Canada uniform right now.
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Battling Ignorance (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/community/?userid=15060078&plckUserId=15060078)
8:35 PM on March 11, 2011
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The article & the pilot involved seem to have missed two things.
Retirement at age 60 was negotiated & written into the contract decades ago. This greedy pilot knew that retirement was at 60 from the day he was hired.
The reason he is now #1, (and been in the top 10 for years) was because everyone else ahead of him retired at 60, allowing him to move up.
Now that everyone else got out of his way it seems he wants the rules changed...it was fine you retire d & let me be #1, but now that I'm here I think the rules should change so I can stay here...to hell with all the rest of you.
You will be despised on the flight line for the greed & arrogance.
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gb_eh (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/community/?userid=60196452&plckUserId=60196452)
7:56 PM on March 11, 2011
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Hey.. you have a negotiated contract between your union and the company... stop your moaning and go to Turkey...
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nice_try (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/community/?userid=61560772&plckUserId=61560772)
9:55 PM on March 11, 2011
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For 39 years Mike has enjoyed watching about 50-100 pilots retire ahead of him, allowing him to move up the list. Do you think this guy ever said a word about it? Of course not....that's why he's #1...and he let's everyone at the airline know his number. Now, 50 days before retirement, he's found religion.
What a tool this guy is.
And by the way...a good dye job can make a guy look younger, but that bent stoop, a bad back, and cracking bones are a dead giveaway.
Enjoy Turkey.
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British Canadian (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/community/?userid=61410857&plckUserId=61410857)
11:20 PM on March 11, 2011
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If he is looking for sympathy - sorry - no dice.
10 grand a month! Probably health and dental. Definitely cheap airfare.
My god son, your wife should slap you.
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Ms Auga (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/community/?userid=17633526&plckUserId=17633526)
10:04 PM on March 11, 2011
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The ONLY reason he is #1, is because hundreds of pilots before him were forced to retire. Now it's your turn. If you want to keep flying, and spend a huge part of your time away from your wife, instead of using your pension and enjoying your free time with her, then I personally think you have a bigger issue that needs to be addressed.
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Thames (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/community/?userid=17538740&plckUserId=17538740)
10:16 PM on March 11, 2011
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Or maybe he should buy a Cessna and take his wife flying. Good points.
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enormity (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/community/?userid=17591780&plckUserId=17591780)
10:59 PM on March 11, 2011
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Brent Jang seems to omit some of the most important points. This Captain has created, through his 39 years of votting within a collective union, a system which pays him around $230,000 a year, and at least 400 of his junior peers less than $70,000 a year. His pension will be greater than those 400 pilots wages. Instead of comming up with any sensible ideas of how to fix this pay disparity, this gentleman along with his 150 top paid friends have decided that their human rights are being violated within the system which they built. The CHRT is now involved to assist these poor soles remain where they are (based solely on seniority) while those 400 junior pilots can suck it up and remain at $70,000 a year until those above him die off of natural causes, I guess. Funny how these top paid over 60 gentlemen will require a babysitter under the age of 60 to fly with them, at half their wage or less.
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9:32 PM on March 11, 2011
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i smile (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/community/?userid=17686670&plckUserId=17686670)
5:54 AM on March 12, 2011
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Give it up.You had a job you loved, and you get a fantastic pension. Now, it is time to find a conscience, and give the young people a chance. Speaking of that, the way things are today, the people who can retire, and are financially able to, do the young, the highest unemployed among us,a favour. To not step aside, the young think is extremely selfish, and no question, they are absolutely right!
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69rooster (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/community/?userid=60091562&plckUserId=60091562)
11:31 PM on March 11, 2011
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I wonder did this Mike Ennis speak up when older, more senior pilots retired ahead of him, thereby allowing Mr. Ennis to get to be at the top of the seniority list, or did he quietly sit by and wait until he was in the top 10%?
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nice_try (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/community/?userid=61560772&plckUserId=61560772)
12:08 AM on March 12, 2011
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Top 10%?
My God, this guy might have maintained a shred of respect amongst his peers if he started his crusade when he was #300.
No, no, no....this clown waited until he was in the op half of the top 1%.
And I can guarantee you that he knows where every penny went. His cheapness is insulting to actual cheap people.
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a330pilotcanada
12th Mar 2011, 20:34
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Thames (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/community/?userid=17538740&plckUserId=17538740)
8:30 PM on March 11, 2011
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Wow, and I thought civil servants had a culture of entitlement. I'm not sure who is worse, the 60 year old who wants to hang on to his right to make almost a quarter million a year choosing his destination, or the younger one, trying to push the older guy out. Unbelievable. Note to Air Canada Share Holders. Pay your pilots by the hour. Better yet, sell your shares.
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pseudocynic (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/community/?userid=60132572&plckUserId=60132572)
12:48 PM on March 12, 2011
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Are you sure you want the pilot of the plane you're on to be fresh from McDonalds? I'd rather have the pilot earning a quarter million than some marketing executive making 7 figures. There's a reason why Air Canada hasn't had a fatal accident since 1983, pilots are the last thing that you want go cheap on.
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A_G1 (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/community/?userid=60395537&plckUserId=60395537)
3:51 PM on March 12, 2011
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pseudocynic - You're absolutely right, no food stamps for my pilots, thanks. However, I think AC would be better off paying it's incoming pilots more than $43K and letting the +$200k's go @ 60.
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senyoryak (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/community/?userid=60740207&plckUserId=60740207)
8:33 AM on March 12, 2011
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Of course his union will not represent his rediculous position as it would be a gross violation of the collective agreement that he and the union accepted. What a selfish man.
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Steve1 (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/community/?userid=14968848&plckUserId=14968848)
10:38 AM on March 12, 2011
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what an #@$% !
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Silver Phoenix (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/community/?userid=14550902&plckUserId=14550902)
8:56 AM on March 12, 2011
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The rights of the many should always outweigh the rights of the individual. At some point an aging pilot with declining skills will jeopardize the lives of his passengers. We don't ever want to reach that point. At age 60 there is a guarantee that that point is not reached. There cannot be an individual approach to this determination because an error will be made.
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Robm222 (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/community/?userid=17049028&plckUserId=17049028)
12:15 PM on March 12, 2011
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So 30 plus years as a Captain with Canada's largest airline making probably more money than anyone has EVER made is not enough for Captain Ennis?
Whatever happened to retiring with dignity and grace?
Does he have any idea that most of his junior collegues will not log 30 years with the airline in ANY capacity - nevermind 30 years as a Captain!
I feel absoulutely no sympathy for this man. He enjoyed the most sublime pilot's career a person in this country could wish for and he wants more - at the expense of his younger Air Canada pilots.
Respect? I don't think so...
RobM
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aviatrx (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/community/?userid=61561472&plckUserId=61561472)
11:49 AM on March 12, 2011
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I have difficulty finding sympathy for this guy who has an issue with retirement at the age of 60, after a long and successful career. What about all the jobless pilots out there? Look at what is happening in the U.S....there are pilots with 15 years experience who are out of work because of the change in retirement age. Do you really want this to happen in Canada? If the Globe and Mail is going to profile this pilot, how about profiling a struggling out of work/junior pilot. Let's fully consider the real world consequences of extending the retirement age, instead of listening to this guy whine about losing his coveted number one seniority number.
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lee_rose (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/community/?userid=60235537&plckUserId=60235537)
8:56 PM on March 11, 2011
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The whole notion of rewarding seniority in this way really irritates me. Why not have it based on performance rather than length of service? Seems logical to me.
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layinglow (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/community/?userid=61560712&plckUserId=61560712)
1:53 PM on March 12, 2011
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“I’m in good shape. Everybody says I don’t look like I’m turning 60, for sure.”
Oh C'mon Mike.
You've been dying your hair for years and you walk like an 80 year old with that bad back of yours. If I look like that when I'm 60, get me a wheelchair.
Come to think of it, you must be in pretty good shape to keep patting yourself on the back like you have lately, as you bop off about all those "perfect" approaches and landings.
Would you rather retire at the "bottom of your game", with multiple failed rides or worse, a incident/accident?
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Langenfeld (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/community/?userid=60979167&plckUserId=60979167)
3:22 PM on March 12, 2011
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This selfish pilot's argument would have been more convincing had he stated his position about two decades ago. But of course, that would not have been in his best interest. Shame on him, that leech.
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a330pilotcanada
12th Mar 2011, 20:36
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3:50 PM on March 12, 2011
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I know a little bit about aviation. I am not sure how I would like to hear on pre-flights, ''This is the captain speaking, I am 65 but do not fear, everyone tells me that I do not look that old''.
There is probably a good reason why that rule is in place. I know, some will say that 60 years old people (some anyway) are still able to do things. I agree. If he wants to keep working, he should be teaching, not flying.
posterboy (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/community/?userid=60085182&plckUserId=60085182)
8:17 PM on March 11, 2011
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I bet he didnt have a problem with the guys before him getting pushed into retirement, allowing him to move up
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Battling Ignorance (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/community/?userid=15060078&plckUserId=15060078)
8:35 PM on March 11, 2011
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The article & the pilot involved seem to have missed two things.
Retirement at age 60 was negotiated & written into the contract decades ago. This greedy pilot knew that retirement was at 60 from the day he was hired.
The reason he is now #1, (and been in the top 10 for years) was because everyone else ahead of him retired at 60, allowing him to move up.
Now that everyone else got out of his way it seems he wants the rules changed...it was fine you retire d & let me be #1, but now that I'm here I think the rules should change so I can stay here...to hell with all the rest of you.
You will be despised on the flight line for the greed & arrogance.
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gb_eh (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/community/?userid=60196452&plckUserId=60196452)
7:56 PM on March 11, 2011
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Hey.. you have a negotiated contract between your union and the company... stop your moaning and go to Turkey...
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nice_try (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/community/?userid=61560772&plckUserId=61560772)
9:55 PM on March 11, 2011
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For 39 years Mike has enjoyed watching about 50-100 pilots retire ahead of him, allowing him to move up the list. Do you think this guy ever said a word about it? Of course not....that's why he's #1...and he let's everyone at the airline know his number. Now, 50 days before retirement, he's found religion.
What a tool this guy is.
And by the way...a good dye job can make a guy look younger, but that bent stoop, a bad back, and cracking bones are a dead giveaway.
Enjoy Turkey.
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British Canadian (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/community/?userid=61410857&plckUserId=61410857)
11:20 PM on March 11, 2011
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If he is looking for sympathy - sorry - no dice.
10 grand a month! Probably health and dental. Definitely cheap airfare.
My god son, your wife should slap you.
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Ms Auga (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/community/?userid=17633526&plckUserId=17633526)
10:04 PM on March 11, 2011
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The ONLY reason he is #1, is because hundreds of pilots before him were forced to retire. Now it's your turn. If you want to keep flying, and spend a huge part of your time away from your wife, instead of using your pension and enjoying your free time with her, then I personally think you have a bigger issue that needs to be addressed.
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Thames (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/community/?userid=17538740&plckUserId=17538740)
10:16 PM on March 11, 2011
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Or maybe he should buy a Cessna and take his wife flying. Good points.
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enormity (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/community/?userid=17591780&plckUserId=17591780)
10:59 PM on March 11, 2011
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Brent Jang seems to omit some of the most important points. This Captain has created, through his 39 years of votting within a collective union, a system which pays him around $230,000 a year, and at least 400 of his junior peers less than $70,000 a year. His pension will be greater than those 400 pilots wages. Instead of comming up with any sensible ideas of how to fix this pay disparity, this gentleman along with his 150 top paid friends have decided that their human rights are being violated within the system which they built. The CHRT is now involved to assist these poor soles remain where they are (based solely on seniority) while those 400 junior pilots can suck it up and remain at $70,000 a year until those above him die off of natural causes, I guess. Funny how these top paid over 60 gentlemen will require a babysitter under the age of 60 to fly with them, at half their wage or less.
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9:32 PM on March 11, 2011
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i smile (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/community/?userid=17686670&plckUserId=17686670)
5:54 AM on March 12, 2011
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Give it up.You had a job you loved, and you get a fantastic pension. Now, it is time to find a conscience, and give the young people a chance. Speaking of that, the way things are today, the people who can retire, and are financially able to, do the young, the highest unemployed among us,a favour. To not step aside, the young think is extremely selfish, and no question, they are absolutely right!
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69rooster (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/community/?userid=60091562&plckUserId=60091562)
11:31 PM on March 11, 2011
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I wonder did this Mike Ennis speak up when older, more senior pilots retired ahead of him, thereby allowing Mr. Ennis to get to be at the top of the seniority list, or did he quietly sit by and wait until he was in the top 10%?
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nice_try (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/community/?userid=61560772&plckUserId=61560772)
12:08 AM on March 12, 2011
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Top 10%?
My God, this guy might have maintained a shred of respect amongst his peers if he started his crusade when he was #300.
No, no, no....this clown waited until he was in the op half of the top 1%.
And I can guarantee you that he knows where every penny went. His cheapness is insulting to actual cheap people.
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Thames (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/community/?userid=17538740&plckUserId=17538740)
8:30 PM on March 11, 2011
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Wow, and I thought civil servants had a culture of entitlement. I'm not sure who is worse, the 60 year old who wants to hang on to his right to make almost a quarter million a year choosing his destination, or the younger one, trying to push the older guy out. Unbelievable. Note to Air Canada Share Holders. Pay your pilots by the hour. Better yet, sell your shares.
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pseudocynic (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/community/?userid=60132572&plckUserId=60132572)
12:48 PM on March 12, 2011
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Are you sure you want the pilot of the plane you're on to be fresh from McDonalds? I'd rather have the pilot earning a quarter million than some marketing executive making 7 figures. There's a reason why Air Canada hasn't had a fatal accident since 1983, pilots are the last thing that you want go cheap on.
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Mizuno boy
12th Mar 2011, 20:37
So many thoughts and perspectives on this issue. As a family member of an airline Captain who had 37 years of uninterrupted and unimpeded,
upward (seat position wise) service at a major airline and retired in the early 90's, I can understand the desire to fly past 60. For alot of these gentlemen flying was their identity and a way of life. I witnessed a fair number of these retirees that in my opinion past away earlier than they should of because their sense of self worth and purpose in life was taken away with retirement.
Unfortunately for the newer generation of pilots this career potential (length and renumeration)is no longer possible. Most if not all of the recent (last 25-30 years) group of pilots have been through layoffs, bankrupcies, and airplanes sold out beneath them, and consequesntly earnings and retirement security. (note this is not just aviation but business and life in general)
For myself, 32 years of flying, 2 banktupcies, and 3 layoffs, last 20 years in corporate aviation and I wouldn't change a thing. Having said all this, retiring will not be hard, as being pilot is what I do not what I am ( although if you asked me this 25-30 years ago I probably would have said that being a pilot was how I defined myself) Not to say I won't miss the actual act of flying, the wonderful people I have met and worked with, or amazing places I have seen, but the struggle for jobs and raising a family changes your perspective.
Guess what I am trying to say is that I can see both sides of the argument and therefore I feel both sides need to work together to solve this disagreement in the best intersets of all, instead of fracturing the pilot group with the venom that these issues are bringing out.
After watching the backward spiral due to the infighting brought on by different pilot groups during mergers, takeovers and union squabbles it is time to work for the greater good of all and not just the individual, or associated group.
Safe flying Guys
Cheers
MB
a330pilotcanada
12th Mar 2011, 20:38
The Last of the current comments from the readers of the Globe and Mail:
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A_G1 (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/community/?userid=60395537&plckUserId=60395537)
3:51 PM on March 12, 2011
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pseudocynic - You're absolutely right, no food stamps for my pilots, thanks. However, I think AC would be better off paying it's incoming pilots more than $43K and letting the +$200k's go @ 60.
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senyoryak (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/community/?userid=60740207&plckUserId=60740207)
8:33 AM on March 12, 2011
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Of course his union will not represent his rediculous position as it would be a gross violation of the collective agreement that he and the union accepted. What a selfish man.
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Steve1 (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/community/?userid=14968848&plckUserId=14968848)
10:38 AM on March 12, 2011
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what an #@$% !
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Silver Phoenix (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/community/?userid=14550902&plckUserId=14550902)
8:56 AM on March 12, 2011
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The rights of the many should always outweigh the rights of the individual. At some point an aging pilot with declining skills will jeopardize the lives of his passengers. We don't ever want to reach that point. At age 60 there is a guarantee that that point is not reached. There cannot be an individual approach to this determination because an error will be made.
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Robm222 (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/community/?userid=17049028&plckUserId=17049028)
12:15 PM on March 12, 2011
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So 30 plus years as a Captain with Canada's largest airline making probably more money than anyone has EVER made is not enough for Captain Ennis?
Whatever happened to retiring with dignity and grace?
Does he have any idea that most of his junior collegues will not log 30 years with the airline in ANY capacity - nevermind 30 years as a Captain!
I feel absoulutely no sympathy for this man. He enjoyed the most sublime pilot's career a person in this country could wish for and he wants more - at the expense of his younger Air Canada pilots.
Respect? I don't think so...
RobM
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11:49 AM on March 12, 2011
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I have difficulty finding sympathy for this guy who has an issue with retirement at the age of 60, after a long and successful career. What about all the jobless pilots out there? Look at what is happening in the U.S....there are pilots with 15 years experience who are out of work because of the change in retirement age. Do you really want this to happen in Canada? If the Globe and Mail is going to profile this pilot, how about profiling a struggling out of work/junior pilot. Let's fully consider the real world consequences of extending the retirement age, instead of listening to this guy whine about losing his coveted number one seniority number.
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lee_rose (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/community/?userid=60235537&plckUserId=60235537)
8:56 PM on March 11, 2011
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The whole notion of rewarding seniority in this way really irritates me. Why not have it based on performance rather than length of service? Seems logical to me.
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layinglow (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/community/?userid=61560712&plckUserId=61560712)
1:53 PM on March 12, 2011
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“I’m in good shape. Everybody says I don’t look like I’m turning 60, for sure.”
Oh C'mon Mike.
You've been dying your hair for years and you walk like an 80 year old with that bad back of yours. If I look like that when I'm 60, get me a wheelchair.
Come to think of it, you must be in pretty good shape to keep patting yourself on the back like you have lately, as you bop off about all those "perfect" approaches and landings.
Would you rather retire at the "bottom of your game", with multiple failed rides or worse, a incident/accident?
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Langenfeld (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/community/?userid=60979167&plckUserId=60979167)
3:22 PM on March 12, 2011
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This selfish pilot's argument would have been more convincing had he stated his position about two decades ago. But of course, that would not have been in his best interest. Shame on him, that leech.
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andre1958 (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/community/?userid=17671842&plckUserId=17671842)
3:50 PM on March 12, 2011
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I know a little bit about aviation. I am not sure how I would like to hear on pre-flights, ''This is the captain speaking, I am 65 but do not fear, everyone tells me that I do not look that old''.
There is probably a good reason why that rule is in place. I know, some will say that 60 years old people (some anyway) are still able to do things. I agree. If he wants to keep working, he should be teaching, not flying.
a330pilotcanada
13th Mar 2011, 05:14
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4:56 PM on March 12, 2011
Seems like most people are upset with the age of the gentleman and the possibility of deteriorating skills. Well, in my profession of air traffic control, we have people over the age of 60, who are marginally able to keep up with the volume of traffic now and insist on still working. They also have generous pensions of about $8000 per month, yet they won't retire either.
I think it is very sad that someone who has worked for 30-40 years (or more) has nothing better to do with their time than keep working. There is so much of the world to see, so much to do and their time on earth is coming to a close sooner rather than later. They have better retirement incomes than the vast number of Canadians, yet their lives are so empty that they cannot bring themselves to leave work.
As for me, at 53, I'll have 31 years in - and that is enough!! Only a few more years to go. If I can't live on $8K+ per month, I'll adjust my lifestyle to make it work!!.
6:24 PM on March 12, 2011
The worst part is the marginal ones don't seem to know it. This argument of flying past 60 has been around for years. My experience has been many that have strived to go past 60 were the very same marginal ones. good thing for good F/O's
Thanks for your honesty, JJ.
Frankly , as a passenger , I would not choose
to have this individual fly me !
I'd rather have a younger less arrogant captain in the
cockpit !
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JohanGK (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/community/?userid=61562187&plckUserId=61562187)
5:03 PM on March 12, 2011
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I guess you won't be flying WESTJET anytime soon. Their retirement age is 65.
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Retiredandhappy (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/community/?userid=61562117&plckUserId=61562117)
4:22 PM on March 12, 2011
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As a retired Captain from Air Canada and also knowing Mr. Ennis, oops sorry Captain Ennis (for you Mikey) I offer the following comments:
Why did you not try to change the collective agreement years ago?
I believe that some pilots who wish to work past 60 years have ligitimate reasons to do so, greed and arrogance are not ligitimate. Your comments to the Globe show your arrogance please readers do not think all pilots are of this mannerism. Many of us have retired with a happy face from a great career
I hope you have a sympathetic crew for the remainder of your flights, it could make for a very quiet flightdeck otherwise.
I wonder if Turkish Airlines knows that you have stated you will be working for a less prestigous airline than Air Canada when you arrive on their doorstep. I am sure you mentioned that to your future employer during your interview!
In closing did anyone ever give you a break when you were applying for Air Canada? Mikey think of all the young folks trying to get on with Air Canada. Maybe you could give them a break!! Blue side up
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Langenfeld (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/community/?userid=60979167&plckUserId=60979167)
3:26 PM on March 12, 2011
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“I’m No. 1, so I go wherever I want,” he says. What a fool, to say such a thing.
Why don't you just stick to the agreement you knew was in place.
You're not setting a good example for your kids, dude.
I thought entitlement of this sort only happened in public service and Third World countries.
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a330pilotcanada
13th Mar 2011, 05:19
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whatchut (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/community/?userid=61561717&plckUserId=61561717)
12:44 PM on March 12, 2011
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Generational theft!
I see the same issue in many workplaces.
I have a young guy, just married, living in his parents basement, who is denied full time employment because the senior guy does not want to retire.
This guy is no different.
Pure entitlement.
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BrianCritchley1 (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/community/?userid=17585346&plckUserId=17585346)
7:37 PM on March 12, 2011
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and then these same people wonder why the younger generations aren't working full time jobs etc and conclude we must be lazy and entitled!
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reheats (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/community/?userid=61090237&plckUserId=61090237)
2:44 PM on March 12, 2011
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Why don't you just retire and enjoy your remaining time on this earth? Unless flying an airplane is more fun than what you have at home.
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DLarmer (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/community/?userid=10085304&plckUserId=10085304)
4:36 PM on March 12, 2011
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Got me, he'll be making more after he retires.
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lookinin (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/community/?userid=16716068&plckUserId=16716068)
2:10 PM on March 12, 2011
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Oh, for Gawd's sakes, just fly gently into that good night quit your b*tchin'. This Boomer embarrasses the h*ll out of me. My apologies to the Gen X'rs, etc. Sheesh.
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lee_rose (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/community/?userid=60235537&plckUserId=60235537)
8:56 PM on March 11, 2011
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The whole notion of rewarding seniority in this way really irritates me. Why not have it based on performance rather than length of service? Seems logical to me.
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AA-from-TO (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/community/?userid=61489752&plckUserId=61489752)
10:43 PM on March 11, 2011
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There is no real standard for assessing a pilot's "performance."
If by performance you mean a pilot's ability to fly planes, then all pilots are the same until disaster strikes. If you are referring to their productivity to the airline, then safety becomes an issue.
And so seniority is the most reasonable indication of a pilot's performance.
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Headnotinthesand (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/community/?userid=17681758&plckUserId=17681758)
7:06 PM on March 12, 2011
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AA - put them on a flight simulator!
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k moss winnipeg (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/community/?userid=16857642&plckUserId=16857642)
4:47 PM on March 12, 2011
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flying a plane is like golfing - overpaid - i could fly most of these computer driven buses
his lawyer ray hall is running for the conservatives in river heights in winnipeg - he draws $120,000 pension from air canada , probably earns another $250,000 at taylor mcaffrey and now wants to help Israel where he has traveled 200 times
came to the door campaigning and i gave him the boot when i asked him about my concerns for gay writes and other tea party issues - he said " gays are sick people and we just have to put up with them "
world is full of greedy dudes and ray hall and michael ennis are 2 beauts ...
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2skeptic (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/community/?userid=61387182&plckUserId=61387182)
4:52 PM on March 12, 2011
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gay "writes" what the f is that?
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Hetfield (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/community/?userid=17542818&plckUserId=17542818)
5:51 PM on March 12, 2011
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Flying a plane is golfing??
Overpaid?
gay writes?
What the F are you on?
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etgbc (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/community/?userid=14720812&plckUserId=14720812)
6:13 PM on March 12, 2011
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Sure you could. 60,000 $ years of gaining experience. going througfh a tuff hiring process and many hrs more with the airline and you just might make it. There is so much more than just flying the airplane!
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ChangeAgent (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/community/?userid=60078737&plckUserId=60078737)
4:27 PM on March 12, 2011
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He is an example of the spoiled baby boomers who believe everything revolves around themselves.
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andre1958 (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/community/?userid=17671842&plckUserId=17671842)
5:14 PM on March 12, 2011
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I fail to see your argument.
A baby Boomer
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a330pilotcanada
13th Mar 2011, 05:22
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detalumis (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/community/?userid=61482787&plckUserId=61482787)
5:39 PM on March 12, 2011
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"doth protest too much, methinks". Only people more self-absorbed than the boomers are the boomer-spawn.
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Redness (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/community/?userid=60325562&plckUserId=60325562)
5:56 PM on March 12, 2011
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A better headline would have been "Man thinks rules shouldn't apply to him."
This isn't news, this happens every day. Get over yourself and enjoy your retirement FFS.
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jjockey (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/community/?userid=61139042&plckUserId=61139042)
5:17 PM on March 12, 2011
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Simple fact is that the seniority system is a bit of a pyramid scheme. If you're lucky enough to make it to the top, then you reap all the rewards. Those that don't make it to the top don't have nearly as nice a life.
This guy made it to the top, and now he wants to stay there. Started at AC at 21, he was one of the golden children.
If he really just wants to fly airplanes, there are lots of opportunities for some great flying on the domestic routes. Oh wait, that's not what he really wants to do after all.
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DLarmer (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/community/?userid=10085304&plckUserId=10085304)
4:34 PM on March 12, 2011
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$10,000 a month pension plus $150,000 a year for turkish airline = $270,000 per year so he losses out on picking where to fly and when, plus double dip benifits.
Boo-hoo i feel so sad.
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etgbc (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/community/?userid=14720812&plckUserId=14720812)
4:06 PM on March 12, 2011
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As a retired pilot I know the vast majority of my peers are not in favour of going past 60. We all deteriate as we get older and personally I think that this is a younger persons profession rather than an older person. There are a few greedy pilots out there and most likely they have been that way for a long time. They are the types that book off at Christmas ect. Ennis likey does not have a life outside flying! Move over and let the next pilots advance as they did for you!
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1:53 PM on March 12, 2011
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SaturnBattery (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/community/?userid=60828007&plckUserId=60828007)
5:59 PM on March 12, 2011
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Am I supposed to feel sorry for this guy? He'll make more in 1 month WHEN HE RETIRES than I make in 4. You should have chosen a story about a guy who'll barely make ends meet after he is forced into early retirement. Poor little rich guy doesn't really generate a lot of empathy.
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anti-estab (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/community/?userid=60879342&plckUserId=60879342)
5:45 PM on March 12, 2011
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Some major airlines still retire their pilots at an earlier age due to the more long-haul nature of the airlines' route network. KLM pilots retire at 56 with the option up to 60 if you decide to fly part time after your 40th birthday.
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Bill Robertson (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/community/?userid=286837&plckUserId=286837)
8:32 PM on March 12, 2011
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Which just proves the point that age has no bearing on the question.
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West Coast Todd (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/community/?userid=15714654&plckUserId=15714654)
4:55 PM on March 12, 2011
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“I’m in good shape. Everybody says I don’t look like I’m turning 60, for sure.”
Dude, there just being nice!
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3:47 PM on March 12, 2011
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Why is the safety aspect of this not discussed? The 777's carry a lot of people. Sure they are automated but if I'm paying for a pilot up there, I want one that's in top health.
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andre1958 (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/community/?userid=17671842&plckUserId=17671842)
3:52 PM on March 12, 2011
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Agreed, you would not want one in the cockpit whose pacemaker is being affected by the navigation system.
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a330pilotcanada
13th Mar 2011, 05:24
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2:52 PM on March 12, 2011
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$10K a month pension? Sweet!
He's flying with Turkish Airlines. He could fly cargo or private if he wanted to, and often those pilots fly well beyond age 60.
Yes, it's always good optics when you start fighting for your rights when you're at the top of the heap, and stood quietly by while your predecessors adhered to the terms of their contract. Terms which weren't a secret when you or they agreed to them.
Me me me me.
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DerFlieger (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/community/?userid=16433660&plckUserId=16433660)
12:03 PM on March 12, 2011
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These pilots are not forced to retire at sixty, but rather had agreed every year of their 30 plus year career to leave Air Canada. They are free to work elsewhere as Capt Ennis has chosen to do.
The agreement to retire at sixty was known to these people when they signed on, and they chose not to address it all these years. They also never raised the issue within the union that represents all the pilots. Instead they seized the opportunity presented by the Americans to sue for this "right". You see, until 9/11 all major airlines has a out at sixty clause because the US didn't allow you to fly into their airspace after that. Following 9/11 many of the US carriers went through bankruptcy and their pension plans failed (which US pilots do not contribute to, unlike AC pilots). Suddenly these senior pilots were scrambling - they successfully lobbied to have the age restriction changed so they could chase the money. Before that, the point was moot.
This movement in Canada IS opportunitic. These people want to sit at the top ad infinitum and are perverting "human rights" to achieve their goal. What about the rights of those below them? We negotiated this clause in good faith; now we're suffering harm to satisfy their ego and greed.
Jazz/Chorus lets pilots fly past 60 - the majority are on long term medical leave. Of the two pilots CHRT forced AC to take back, one is now on medical leave. How are you supposed to schedule around that? Why should the younger pilots be saddled with the significantly higher risk of incapacitation while their careers are stalled by the same people?!
He has had his time, he has earned lots of money and he has a great pension, it's time to step aside for the next generation.
The baby-boom generation fell ass-backwards into great jobs with golden pensions that they don't appreciate and now it's up to the next generation to move these old folks out to the pasture.
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dh_43 (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/community/?userid=16819326&plckUserId=16819326)
5:30 PM on March 12, 2011
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that sums it up beautifully. This guy is a classic baby boomer got a great job at 21 and stayed for life. That just doesn't happen any more. He should be forced to get out now, he's merely clogging the system up for younger people behind him.
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Strat_Fender (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/community/?userid=60318192&plckUserId=60318192)
7:22 PM on March 12, 2011
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Seems to be a perception these days that an employer has an obligation to give you something to do in your retirement years.. How about collecting your pension, choose a new career path and allow the younger worker a shot at their first chosen career.. Don't be so damn selfish!!
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pilotguy (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/community/?userid=60875217&plckUserId=60875217)
7:06 PM on March 12, 2011
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I am a commercial pilot [duh, check username ;)] and though I won't mention what airline I work for (one of the big two) I think this guy is being selfish and trying to "move the goalposts" after the game has started, so to speak.
This dude started at 21, straight outta flight school (try THAT today!) and benefited his ENTIRE career from guys pulling the pin @60, now all of a sudden when it's his turn, he wants to change things up so he can keep his plush sked and ca$hflow, thus severely delaying the career progression of those lower on the totem pole.
I'm pretty sure that unless he was a total knob with money, he has no mortgage left and kids who are done university or close to it. Meanwhile the younger guys making a fraction of his wage are just starting out their families with mortgages, kids etc.
This is being selfish, plain and simple. You knew the rules going in, you had AMPLE opportunity to change the retirement age through negotiation (82% of AC pilots are AGAINST raising it because they KNOW it's eating their young) but you never did.
Move over, enjoy your retirement, and have a turkish coffee for me (but you better hope they don't read the Globe over there or you might be sharing some quiet flight decks).
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Bill Robertson (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/community/?userid=286837&plckUserId=286837)
8:25 PM on March 12, 2011
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Please update your comments when you're 60
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WHouse (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/community/?userid=60886897&plckUserId=60886897)
4:48 PM on March 12, 2011
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I wouldn't be too surprised if this dude gets a free AC pass for the rest of his life, for him and the missus.
Can you spell GREED?
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Ohcrap (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/community/?userid=61020897&plckUserId=61020897)
4:30 PM on March 12, 2011
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If it gets rid of the air hag flight attendants, then I am all for it. Their sense of entitlement is unbelievable, much like the Air Canada attitude in general.
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jgoods (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/community/?userid=60219392&plckUserId=60219392)
3:11 PM on March 12, 2011
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He should take his case to the Human Rights Tribunal; they'll let him work to 150 and give him half the airline for his troubles!
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Headnotinthesand (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/community/?userid=17681758&plckUserId=17681758)
7:02 PM on March 12, 2011
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Greed, greed and more greed. Shame.
If you want to fly for AC donate half of your salary (to charity or younger pilots)
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get_real (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/community/?userid=60137432&plckUserId=60137432)
6:36 PM on March 12, 2011
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Air Canada doesn't want pilots flying past 60, and the vast majority of the pilots don't want the rules changed to go past 60. It's just a few greedy me me me people.
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a330pilotcanada
13th Mar 2011, 05:26
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threebears4 (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/community/?userid=61077797&plckUserId=61077797)
3:03 PM on March 12, 2011
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This guy should buy his own wee plane, pay for his own petrol to fly it, and keep out of his wife's hair that way. Then he could fly where ever and whenever he likes... just like he does now. Oh yes, but it would be on his own nickel.
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varun xm (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/community/?userid=17046088&plckUserId=17046088)
2:39 PM on March 12, 2011
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i support the quest to work beyond 60 but that's the price one pays for collective bargaining and heck! that gilt edged pension plan is part. the pilot knew the deal when he signed on.
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Confused Philosopher (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/community/?userid=15385328&plckUserId=15385328)
8:30 AM on March 12, 2011
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I appreciate that older workers have a lot to contribute.
When we look at this situation, it is not really a question of "forced retirement", except from Air Canada. He is able to pursue an activity he loves at good pay with another airline. This a perfectly reasonable situation. Without the forced retirement from Air Canada at 60, pilots with A/C will not have received the good salaries over their career with A/C, especially in their 50's. The collective agreement allows pilots with A/C to earn these very attractive salaries. If he does not want to be apart of it, well he shouldn't have signed up in the first place.
Any how, I wish him best of luck in his new job. He sounds like a superb pilot.
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TorontoMike (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/community/?userid=17394704&plckUserId=17394704)
6:48 PM on March 12, 2011
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When a commuter plane crashed in the states killing all on board, several news articles described how major airlines throw the regional work to associate airlines but don't pay well for it. The result is that commuter airlines paid their pilots very little which in turn resulted in inexperienced pilots working long hours.
This story and the teachers union reminds me that there are deep inequalities in many professions. People with seniority make tons of money while less experienced folks can't even get their careers started.
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Bill Robertson (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/community/?userid=286837&plckUserId=286837)
8:28 PM on March 12, 2011
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You've hit it bang-on the for the current trend inthe avitaion industry. Two grossly overworked and underpaid pilots made critical mistakes that caused the Buffalo crash two years ago. If AC has it's way all it's pilots will likewise be overworked and underpaid. There's much to be said for having at least one well paid and experienced pilot at the controls of any irpplane carrying fare-paying passengers.
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overthehill (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/community/?userid=14932546&plckUserId=14932546)
5:09 PM on March 12, 2011
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When it came to retirement I loved my work.
It was a great adjustment to make , personally .
BUT I HAD "MY TIME". Seeing younger people (with families) taking over DID NOT BOTHER ME....I WAS GLAD FOR THEM.
I may have my faults, but I am NOT a selfish old pri ck
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WHouse (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/community/?userid=60886897&plckUserId=60886897)
4:39 PM on March 12, 2011
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Same thing happens with other professions, such as teaching. The money's too good to give up, so the old dogs keep working, and working, and working.
OTOH, who could live on a pension of only $10,000 a month? LOL.
This guy is either very greedy, or full of himself. Either way, his wife's likely glad that he'll be flying from Istanbul starting May 2/11. He is likely a p-i-t-a to live with.
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get_real (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/community/?userid=60137432&plckUserId=60137432)
6:32 PM on March 12, 2011
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I must disagree with you, you said he is either very greedy OR full of himself. I say he is greedy AND full of himself.
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Snowed in in Barrie (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/community/?userid=16527364&plckUserId=16527364)
9:00 PM on March 12, 2011
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Buddy, get a life. Do you have no intersts outside of counting your money?
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A Humble Man (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/community/?userid=60485807&plckUserId=60485807)
9:18 PM on March 12, 2011
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You`ve made your millions. Take a break and let a younger kid have some experience and make some money to support his family.
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catfish8888 (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/community/?userid=60730117&plckUserId=60730117)
12:29 PM on March 12, 2011
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Go talk to some young pilots who are facing all sorts of challenges getting on the career ladder - a senior pilot such as this chap is making gobs of money and pension and tieing up Air Canada salary and benefits that should be better distributed among new, junior pilots. If he wants to continue working then his job at Turkish Airlines is just the ticket.
I know a young pilot who has just started a new job - his salary is significantly less than Canada's average industrial wage for a job that has taken years of school and training and working up the ladder. He'd love to have the chance to work for Air Canada - he'll get there more quickly if these senior pilots move gracefully aside.
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overthehill (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/community/?userid=14932546&plckUserId=14932546)
5:26 PM on March 12, 2011
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You get these greedy, selfish, old "individuals"(said politely) in many fields; Airline pilots, judges, doctors,senators. Just too self centered .Those of "like minded" thinking(?) support them of course.
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a330pilotcanada
13th Mar 2011, 05:29
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ALASTAIR JAMES BERRY (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/community/?userid=17220590&plckUserId=17220590)
1:02 PM on March 12, 2011
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Personally, I would take RETIREMENT , anytime , before work .... I retired at 53 and never looked back ... and I agree you cannot argue from the single to the general, but that is the way I look at it ... (best thing I ever did ... and I'm 81 now)
Be your own BOSS ... Forget all the work place B.S. ... relax and take it easy for 11 months of the year ... (The weather on Maui is sunny and warm today)
11 months ? YES APRIL WILL BE HELL ... working out your T # 1 GENERAL TAX RETURN ... it is far more complicated after retirement ...
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William Doyle (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/community/?userid=60075547&plckUserId=60075547)
7:22 PM on March 12, 2011
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He knew the rules now it is only right that he has to comply.
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Ken Berger (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/community/?userid=60890467&plckUserId=60890467)
7:23 PM on March 12, 2011
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I weep crocodile tears for this man. He has to take a job now for 130,000 when he was making 230,000 working for Air Canada. He was overly paid in the first place and now his nose is out of joint because he had to retire from Air Canada with a 10,000 per month pension. Cut off his pension and let him fly for Turkish Airlines.
7:48 PM on March 12, 2011
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Buy a Super Cub on floats and start living. With the amount of retirement money he will receive, he could move up to a Beaver or something of that nature.
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detalumis (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/community/?userid=61482787&plckUserId=61482787)
6:46 PM on March 12, 2011
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Even though he knew about this date for the last 40 years and he has a fantastic pension he still thinks his life is over if he stops working. In 5 years I guess he will find out if that is the case or not.
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RBenstein (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/community/?userid=17524978&plckUserId=17524978)
6:58 PM on March 12, 2011
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Not many people are going to be on your side, Mike.
One major point: what does a healthy 60-year old who has been doing the same job since he was 21 do at the point of retirement ? Many men are at a loss as to what to simply do with themselves. Many divorces and heart attacks occur with newly retired people.
I can sympathize with him on this, but perhaps he could start thinking about other interests when 65 hits.
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D_T1 (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/community/?userid=14730636&plckUserId=14730636)
6:22 PM on March 12, 2011
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If pilots are allowed to fly after they turn 60, they may flight again if they BELIEVE they are still fit to fly. Where is the end.
For the sake of flight safety, pilots should retire at 60. These pilots know so well from the beginning that they will retire at 60. If they think they are so right, they should have fought this rule when they were much younger.
SELFISH!!
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2skeptic (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/community/?userid=61387182&plckUserId=61387182)
5:10 PM on March 12, 2011
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Wow. The claws sure come out when you find out what someone else's pension is!
Miaow.
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JonBraun (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/community/?userid=15861474&plckUserId=15861474)
4:42 PM on March 12, 2011
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We new pilots want into the business as well. I'm gonna be 60 before I even get a job at Air Canada if they keep raising the retirement ages.
And too all those passengers out there. Do you really want a senior citizen flying your plane?
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dh_43 (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/community/?userid=16819326&plckUserId=16819326)
5:54 PM on March 12, 2011
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i wonder if this has anything to do with air Canada drifting in and out of bankruptcy protection every ten years or so?
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get_real (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/community/?userid=60137432&plckUserId=60137432)
6:22 PM on March 12, 2011
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No, it has to do with Westjet being subsidized by the Alberta government giving them free jet fuel.
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JMurray1 (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/community/?userid=60245437&plckUserId=60245437)
3:51 PM on March 12, 2011
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I recall a pilot at Northwest Airlines in MSP in the early 1950s, "Deke" Delong, retiring at 65 years of age. He ended up flying DC-3s exclusively MSP-Winnipeg. Shortly afterwards the age of retirement was set at 60 years by U.S. government decree. Canada must have followed.
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West Coast Todd (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/community/?userid=15714654&plckUserId=15714654)
4:53 PM on March 12, 2011
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Dude that was like 60 years ago... what are you talking about?
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Canadian in Thailand (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/community/?userid=10045029&plckUserId=10045029)
4:29 PM on March 12, 2011
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This man could become a first. I have yet to hear of a person who retires and says he/she wishes they could have worked an extra few years, myself included.
If you don't have the money, ahhhh, that's a different situation.
So Captain, if you don't manage to keep some younger pilot from getting your job, com'on down and we'll have a sundowner together while I explain the ropes to you.
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a330pilotcanada
13th Mar 2011, 05:31
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Deryk (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/community/?userid=15401312&plckUserId=15401312)
11:02 AM on March 12, 2011
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Am a two million miler, with that said, Pilots are my choice for the number 1 profession for respect. With that said, this gentlemen has his views, however he is part of a very strong union, and therefore his union, would have to champion this cause. Airlines of course like it when someone earning top dollar, with benefits, leaves their payroll. Word has it, new pilots make very little. I like gray hair in the cockpit, and only hope the medical profession, has some valid input, who should and who should not, pilot a plane. There are of course always two of them up there.
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nice_try (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/community/?userid=61560772&plckUserId=61560772)
12:04 PM on March 12, 2011
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Deryk:
His union, ACPA, is not "championing" his cause. ACPA, and the majority of AC pilots want to keep the retirement age at 60. The only ones who want it to change are the greedy ones who are about 56 and older, and who never said a peep for their whole careers while others were being "forced" to retire ahead of them. I would have had some respect for these guys if they actually spoke up in their 40s, but look at this clown Mike Ennis. He waited until he is 50 DAYS from retirement.
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69buick (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/community/?userid=61210167&plckUserId=61210167)
6:39 PM on March 12, 2011
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Can you imagine a 60 year old trying to hang onto a job he has worked at all his life?
What a crazy world we live in!
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benner (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/community/?userid=60236677&plckUserId=60236677)
5:48 PM on March 12, 2011
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And this sums up in a nutshell why the public hates the unions!
a) This guy pulls down $230k a year for babysitting a computer 8 days a month.
b) The entire system is base on seniority, so there is no incentive to be good at your job
c) It forces a basically fully trained, fully able person not to work any more.
d) The pension is better than 95% of peoples wages and kicks in at 60 (more?)
What a complete display of mismanagement of resources, both human and capital.
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RBenstein (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/community/?userid=17524978&plckUserId=17524978)
7:03 PM on March 12, 2011
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a) flying an airplane sounds like nothing until the said airplane, or computer system malfunctions and the pilot is charged with the job of saving the lives of everyone on board.
Can happen any day, any time, any point of the flight and for any reason
Don't try it at home, Benner.
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Bill Robertson (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/community/?userid=286837&plckUserId=286837)
8:31 PM on March 12, 2011
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I'm sure these are all the thoughts you feel, until you're in the air, in trouble, and you're praying to God to have this guy save your@$$ - at which time his age and how much he makes will be of no consequence to you
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etgbc (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/community/?userid=14720812&plckUserId=14720812)
8:48 PM on March 12, 2011
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wow! must be a loser. The union does not want this. I Guess it's your public not mine!
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JohanGK (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/community/?userid=61562187&plckUserId=61562187)
4:56 PM on March 12, 2011
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Gee... some of the comments here are so typically Canadianl!! Secondly, I am not sure that the author of this article clearly articulated the central issue.
The fact is, on this issue, Air Canada is grossly out of step with what's happening in the rest of the world. Retirement ages of the worlds' largest airlines....
British Airways 65
American Airlines 65
US Airways 65 (remember Sulley... I'd feel comfortable hearing his voice from the cockpit)
Continental Airlines 65
Lufthansa 65
Nipon 65
WESTJET 65
... I could go on!
ps. Canada has a great health care system..but you know what.. It's not THE BEST IN THE WORLD!
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overthehill (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/community/?userid=14932546&plckUserId=14932546)
5:18 PM on March 12, 2011
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Airline pilots, judges, doctors.senators
Some would "hang on" until they dropped in the saddle.
This boils down to selfishness...nothing more. There is lots to keep one occupied after one retires.
Where are you going to draw the line?
The only reason why retiring later, is encouraged, is to reduce pension plan
obligations nothing else.
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get_real (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/community/?userid=60137432&plckUserId=60137432)
6:27 PM on March 12, 2011
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What does any of these have to do with Air Canada? If they want to retire at 60, as they have negotiated who are you greedy pigs to try to change the rules to suit a few at the expense of the rest.
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Bill Jackson Jr (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/community/?userid=60123282&plckUserId=60123282)
4:32 PM on March 12, 2011
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What really matters is whether his performance will decline beyond age 60. Historically, I suspect it would, but with modern health care and exercise, many 60 year olds are better able to perform than those much younger. I am not at all surprised to see the union abandon him - typical collectivist behaviour.
I am a faculty member. We used to have mandatory 65 retirement in Ontario. McGuinty abandoned it, as I think he should have. However, there should be mandatory performance assessment at 65 (and perhaps other ages too) if the faculty members seeks to stay on. As it is, the deadwood is not leaving now, universities are get hit with higher salaries, and a hiring freeze in consequence. What a mess. I have no problem with allowing stellar teachers and researches to keep going, just as I would with pilots. Base the decision on performance, not age.
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Bill Robertson (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/community/?userid=286837&plckUserId=286837)
4:42 PM on March 12, 2011
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This whole age thing is nothing more than BS based on the 1940's. Aviation today is highly technical and highly monitored, as are the crews both for medical and proficiency reasons. If they fail their medical or proficiency at any age they should be out. As long as they maintain medical and proficiency they should be in, if they want to. I'd rather be flying with guys upfront who have experience, know how to think, and do math in their heads without resoting to calculators for numbers over 10. Sully Sulenberger didn't put that crate in the Hudson and save everyone because he had no experience, I'll take the guys like Sully, or the Bob Pearson's of the world, over the young kids any day when the going gets tough.
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West Coast Todd (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/community/?userid=15714654&plckUserId=15714654)
4:50 PM on March 12, 2011
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But if you have well qualified younger people, why keep an old person around?
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a330pilotcanada
13th Mar 2011, 05:33
Nore Reader Comments from the lobe and Mail:
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2skeptic (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/community/?userid=61387182&plckUserId=61387182)
4:57 PM on March 12, 2011
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Let's see if I can state it simply for you:
experience
calm in the face of emergency
deal with any possible air situation
able to communicate appropriately with air controllers
and oh yeah, in case the entire cockpit goes haywire...are able to do a few calculations in their head to get the fricken plane down safely!
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get_real (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/community/?userid=60137432&plckUserId=60137432)
6:30 PM on March 12, 2011
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If Sully was a little younger he could have missed the birds.
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Masdar (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/community/?userid=60306692&plckUserId=60306692)
7:21 PM on March 12, 2011
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If the pilot in question meets the medical requirements commiserate with his rating it clearly a discriminatory policy on the part Air Canada to require that the pilot retire at age sixty. However having said this, perhaps Air Canada could create a position for those pilots that wish to retain their seniority, after the mandatory retirement age, without taking space up in the left seat.
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North of You (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/community/?userid=60350692&plckUserId=60350692)
5:48 PM on March 12, 2011
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MPs and senators and heads of state have no retirement age. What’s good for the goose is good for the gander. So if he still can pass the ride….let him fly to his heart’s content until his medical expires I say.
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B_. (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/community/?userid=16647354&plckUserId=16647354)
5:35 PM on March 12, 2011
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We already have many more pilots than we used to because they insist upon flying these little dinky toy "less than 100 seat" jets everywhere. Seniority must have been a lot bigger issue years ago when the smaller planes were the 737.
If the industry standard is 65, then it should be 65, end of story.
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BCopes (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/community/?userid=61296907&plckUserId=61296907)
11:42 AM on March 12, 2011
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While this guy's complaint is absolutely based on selfish reasons, Air Canada should reconsider their retirement age. I'm only young, but I have no desire to retire at 60. Lifespans are increasing. It is not unfathomable for a healthy person forced to retire at 60 to spend 25 - 30 years in retirement. Who wants to do that? As a young person I'd much rather let him work then pay for his retirement.
Retirement ages are going to need to be increased as more and more people find that they are healthy at 60 and are living until 85 - 90. Hell, in two decades I would imagine the number of people hitting 100 will skyrocket.
As I said, while I think this guy is acting quite selfish, the overall argument of retirement age is one that should absolutely be looked at.
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A_G1 (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/community/?userid=60395537&plckUserId=60395537)
4:01 PM on March 12, 2011
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Lifespans have indeed increased over the years, however, economic needs have arisen which greatly benefit from the 60 yr old person retiring.
I think if a person at age 60 can afford to get by on their pension, they should endeavour to do so.
(And I certainly think $10K/mo is more than enough!)
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Stoneywalker (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/community/?userid=17722954&plckUserId=17722954)
8:38 PM on March 11, 2011
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I think that he should be allowed to stay working provided he meets the health standard and he should be allowed all the seniority he has earned . These conditions should however come at a price. The price should be that his salary or compensation should be set at the equivalent value of his retirement income. After all that is what he agreed to in his contract . He can't have it both ways.
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Battling Ignorance (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/community/?userid=15060078&plckUserId=15060078)
10:31 PM on March 11, 2011
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I understand there are also problems with other countries gov'ts. Many don't allow a Captain to be over 60, others only one crew can be over 60. It would create a complex situation, he is #1 & can pick his flights...what do you do when #2 also wants those flights & they are both over 60.
The first time one of them suffers a heart attack at the controls will end all the discussion.
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DerFlieger (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/community/?userid=16433660&plckUserId=16433660)
12:07 PM on March 12, 2011
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That in fact was offered to them...but they want it all.
Good on Transport Canada for keeping the age 60 rule and not cowtowing to modern ageism politics like the rest of the world-especially Europe!
Just as a point of information, Transport Canada (the CAA) does not have an upper age-limit for pilots...
carholme
13th Mar 2011, 13:16
Good on ya CD!
Glad to see you are still kicking around and providing quality facts.
Gerry
engfireleft
13th Mar 2011, 14:13
Good on Transport Canada for keeping the age 60 rule and not cowtowing
to modern ageism politics like the rest of the world-especially Europe!
It's not "ageism politics", it's ending discriminatory practices. It is also helpful to get the basic facts correct before forming an opinion and leaping into a debate.
a330pilotcanada
13th Mar 2011, 14:56
Some More Reader Comments from the Globe and Mail:
wingman444 (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/community/?userid=61563017&plckUserId=61563017)
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To the pilot in question, you didn't seem to have a problem when those above you, retired at 60 and made way for people like yourself to move up the ladder. Now that you're there, you wanna stay some more? Good luck trying to get along with the rest of your crew for last month at AC. I know, i'm one of them.
Since you mentioned that now you'd be flying for Turkish Airlines, I felt that it was only right that they knew what they were in for, so this link was sent to the DFO at Turkish Airlines.
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wingman444 (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/community/?userid=61563017&plckUserId=61563017)
10:23 AM on March 13, 2011[/font]
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GREED!
clevlandHD
13th Mar 2011, 15:05
So, you built a contract agreement based on defeered income and mandatory retirement at 60. If you want to change one, you got to change both. Otherwise it would be discremination based on seniority. Fair enough old boys, fly 'til you die but you sure need to share the pie.
engfireleft
14th Mar 2011, 00:32
So, you built a contract agreement based on defeered income and mandatory retirement at 60. If you want to change one, you got to change both. Otherwise it would be discremination based on seniority. Fair enough old boys, fly 'til you die but you sure need to share the pie.
Obviously. Can you find anywhere on any forum where a FP60 supporter has said otherwise? Of course changes to the pay scheme will likely have to be made. Maybe you could convince AC pilots and ACPA to focus on that and get on with the job instead of uselessly crying about how unfair it is.
MackTheKnife
14th Mar 2011, 12:46
A330 Pilot,
I would bet the farm all these comments are a result of an initiative from the AC pilots PRIVATE forum to try and discredit the FlyPast60 movement.
The only thing achieved was to bring discredit to a once proud profession by showing how ignorant and immature they all are by lies, half truths and innuendo.
Congratulations :D :D. Once again AC pilots denigrate themselves in the public eye through sheer stupidity.
MTK
clunckdriver
14th Mar 2011, 13:14
Mack, It seems that the pilot in question is responsible for all the negative PR, he did, aparentley without clearing it with AC, give an interview to the media which has generated such a backlash from fellow Canadians who can only dream of such pension/bennifits/ life style.In the meantime it will be interesting to see how the financial hurt to the junior pilots is handled. So glad Im retired, will go to work on Weds in my little twin, make a good return on investment, fly with a well paid motivated F/O who with any luck will take my job in the near future, {The final retirment flight}
Lost in Saigon
14th Mar 2011, 15:33
A330 Pilot,
I would bet the farm all these comments are a result of an initiative from the AC pilots PRIVATE forum to try and discredit the FlyPast60 movement.
The only thing achieved was to bring discredit to a once proud profession by showing how ignorant and immature they all are by lies, half truths and innuendo.
Congratulations :D :D. Once again AC pilots denigrate themselves in the public eye through sheer stupidity.
MTK
It is pretty obvious that these remarks are for the most part written by Air Canada pilots because they constantly use terms, or make reference to things that the average "Joe Public" has not idea about.
The dollar value of his salary or pension has no bearing on this story. Everyone is missing one major point. Flying past age 60 is NOT about money or greed. If the pilot in question is forced to retire at age 60 and then flies for Turkish, he will make MORE money and be a drain on the ACPA pension fund.
If he is allowed to continue flying at Air Canada past age 60, he will make LESS money and actually reduce the strain on the ACPA pension fund.
This story is really about basic human dignity, and the basic human right not to be discriminated against on the basis of age.
The only "greedy" ones are the junior pilots who are clamoring for their turn at the higher paying jobs. Just another sign of the impatience of youth. Since it's inception ACPA has time and time again shown itself to be driven by a collective sense of self-entitlement.
Sad really.
breguet
14th Mar 2011, 17:04
To carry on flying past 60 with a huge pension that not even half of Canadians can dream off is pretty sad when one mentions that it is his way of life and that, if he stops flying, he will disapeared, i.e. die. Those pilots have no interest in their life beside working. It is pretty sad to have only work to keep you alive....They totally forgot to enjoy life...May be theu do not know what life is...
Lost in Saigon
14th Mar 2011, 17:11
To carry on flying past 60 with a huge pension that not even half of Canadians can dream off is pretty sad when one mentions that it is his way of life and that, if he stops flying, he will disapeared, i.e. die. Those pilots have no interest in their life beside working. It is pretty sad to have only work to keep you alive....They totally forgot to enjoy life...May be they do not know what life is...
In YOUR opinion he may not know what life is. But no one (no group or individual) should have the right to decide what HIS life should be.
Why is that so hard for you to understand?
.
a330pilotcanada
14th Mar 2011, 17:48
Good Afternoon MTK.
To get that many a/c pilots out on short notice would make hearding cats easy.
It is your "poster boy" who used large deck guns to punch holes through the deck with the average canadian people. Take a look at
Stats Canada for average income in the country than you can see his hardship would not resonate with the average Canadian.
If you are to have an effective p/r campaign pick a informed balanced individual to make the point.
Personally the issue will be decided by the Supreme Court of Canada.
Oh myself I could care less how it plays out...............
royalterrace
14th Mar 2011, 21:01
"Oh myself I could care less how it plays out..............."
Says Mr. Cut and Paste.
It really sickens me to see others try and tell one how one should live THEIR life. Talk about self righteous...
clunkdriver
Glad to see how everything is working out so well for you. You have obviously made choices that have worked out well for YOU. No offence but getting a little tired of hearing about it though...
Really folks , who gives a damn why anyone wants to keep working. That's their business and the "get a life crowd" are really getting a bit insufferable.
What's important is that each and every one of us can decide for ourselves and not because some union has decided it should be so.
a330pilotcanada
14th Mar 2011, 23:55
Hello from Mr Cut and Paste, but for the record I use copy and paste but I digress.
It is nice to see your ban from PPRuNe has been lifted which I might add was for "verbally beating" up the widow of a deceased pilot. I did look in Google Earth took a guess Royal Terrace is in CYYC and from the picture I can see where the expression "hide the razor blades" comes into play.
I did experience substantial languor from the exercise of the "copy and paste" from the reader comments from the Globe and Mail due to the length of comments etc. In reading of your post I got the feeling that you did not notice there were comments (few) that supported the initiative to be able to fly past the contractually agreed retirement date of age 60.
A point of interest which I will raise is my god son in his final year of university (A- average fluently bilingual) next year he will do his Masters in Education will have problems getting a job because (wait for it) retired teachers can come back and teach for 90 hours each year including being on a pension.
So guess where most teachers go to get work Korea, China or Asia?
The nice thing here in the "centre of the known defined universe as we know it" is the government has just put into place a change in the 90 hours to 45 hours to ease the "Generation Theft" that is on going. Oh I forgot it is my right to keep working, well how about with your rights come some responsibilities such as giving some one else a chance.
Without this balance a situation can develop to where a substantive change in the demographics of our nation can occur, such as where young people enter the work force later, marry later, and maybe due to age decide not to have children. Therefore, we have an aging declining population with a low birth rate and the only way to keep the population up is massive immigration but that is not germane to this conversation...
So how does the above apply for the new pilot who has a freshly minted licence? First of all I am assuming that you are a pilot to be able to understand this case, where you have the ratings but you do not have the experience. So now comes the long uphill climb that needs the majors to do some hiring. For each senior pilot at the top who forgive me for using the word retires it creates a powerful partial vacuum through out the system to pull everyone up through the middle. Therefore, if there is stagnation in the majors due going beyond a retirement age pick any number you want where does the new cohort of pilots get their employment? Alternatively, why would anyone want to spend the 50K plus to get their licences with no foreseeable job prospects?
I find irony in that you support the fight against ageism which the elimination of all prejudicial practices that is a just and righteous cause but will disparage the wealth of experience that "Clunkdriver" has to offer. That is being intellectually dishonest and morally bankrupt sir.
In your discourse you mentioned unions, yes some unions have ruined the public perception of same but in the commercial aviation world if you are involved in a regulatory issue you have the government at one table, your management at the over with yourself by yourself unless if you have your union representative there to help you out. To put it in the vernacular of your area of domicile, you bring a 12 gauge to a knife fight. I paid my dues for over thirty years and never needed that kind of back up mentioned. It is like paying the premium for fire insurance a costly item but it does come in handy if needed.
I will conclude my only interest is to see my old profession being held in high regard by our travelling public but the events such as the recent article in the Globe and Mail as of late sadly preclude this.
royalterrace
15th Mar 2011, 02:08
Mr. Cut (copy) and Paste
Guns ablazin eh...
Thanks for the lesson on demographics. Didn't learn anything though. We all know this whole ****estorm revolves around the older guys getting out of the way for the newer guys. I disagree. I prefer to make that decision myself. Full stop. If you want to be altruistic in any regard , fill yer boots. I support your right to make YOUR own decision. Just don't tell me what I should do...
Telling someone to get lost is not exactly beating someone up. Widow or not , I strongly disagree with the censorship that goes on at avcanada and your attempt to demonize me because she happens to be a widow is lame at best.
I'm sure clunkdriver can defend himself. I have no quarrel with him or his experience and once again I fully support his right to make the decisions he has regarding HIS OWN life. Sounds like he has a good thing going for himself. Not my cup of tea though and when the time comes I prefer to decide for myself what I will fly or even IF I will fly.
Keep propping up your old profession. We need it.
Saltaire
15th Mar 2011, 06:55
Obviously we have some A/C fly past 60 folks here. I'm sure it will happen at some point in the future. People are healthier, living longer and most of the other airlines around the world have adopted this extension. All fair enough.
What's in very bad taste and almost offensive is some entitled, arrogant, greedy knob profiled in the paper trying to garner sympathy. Hired at 21, unheard of today, 39 years service, self proclaimed top gun and No 1. With the benefit of all the other retirees before him, this guy now stands tall and what a great opportunity to stay the course making 230k/year + for another 5 years, then given an indexed pension at an even higher rate in proportion to his higher salary. Saigon, he will personally make more money with a dual income moving to Turkey, but make no mistake, he WILL cost AC more money staying for another 5 years on a higher salary and an even higher pension payout. What's the Air Canada pension shortfall now? Talk to a retired United, American, US Airways pilot about their pension.
This fellow is basically semi retired. At the top of the pyramid, he flies likely a few times a month, on his preferred route, gets all his requested vacation time and all of his benefits are maxed to the top level. Knowing this for his entire career of 39 years at A/C, right out of flight school he now wants to maintain his position of No 1 ! What a great idea :E Why not buy a light twin, do some real flying and retire with dignity like so many others before you. Go to turkey, sim instruct, but allow the system to move people along, and after 39 years for goodness sakes ! This guy wants to cruise along at the top for another 5 years and only NOW at the final hour is trying to extract sympathy from the working public? Even from the article with limited information, the people call bullsh$t and in big numbers. They will now watch with interest to see if this arrogant narcissist will fly past 60. This doesn't do any favors to the cause or the reputation of an AC pilot. Good luck.
Married a Canadian
15th Mar 2011, 11:37
What's important is that each and every one of us can decide for ourselves and not because some union has decided it should be so
Some union + Some company + Some employee who joined said union all were OK with the system till now.
Said employee would normally be quite happy said union is representing him because the perception in general seems to be that said company would screw said employee without said union representing his best interests. What is the point of them otherwise.
If the union is supposed to represent the majority then what else would you suggest?
Or are you implying that there is an inherent flaw in "democracy" and that the majority rule is not always best for everyone. Good heavens!!
clunckdriver
15th Mar 2011, 11:47
Royal, if you are tired of reading my posts the solution is simple, just dont read them! Married a Canuck, you hit it right on, great post! Cut and paste, keep it up, saves the rest of us lazy sods from doing it! Regards, Clunck.
single chime
15th Mar 2011, 14:01
He would not mind having all the AC retirees exercise their right to return as well, would he? So, how many guys could come back ahead of him? Could he still hold the 777?
engfireleft
15th Mar 2011, 16:20
If the union is supposed to represent the majority then what else would you suggest?
Or are you implying that there is an inherent flaw in "democracy" and that the majority rule is not always best for everyone. Good heavens!!
A union is not supposed to represent the majority, and majority rule is not always best or even permitted. For example a majority cannot vote to do something illegal and a union may not do something illegal no matter how many of their members want them to. A union is in fact required by law to represent every single employee in the bargaining unit in a manner that is not discriminatory, arbitrary or in bad faith.
If ACPA ever knew that then they have surely forgotten it, which is why they are the subject of a DFR complaint among all their other problems.
royalterrace
15th Mar 2011, 16:23
clunkdriver
Not tired of reading your posts. Just the parts where it's so great being retired and doing something else with the inherent implication that we should all do the same.
I really have no dog in this fight , but I guess I pipe up because I am so strongly against "other forces" determining ones destiny. I'm a strong believer in making ones own decisions and standing by them and reaping the rewards or consequences.
marriedacanuck
I've always had a problem with unions and their "us against them" way of doing things. At one time they were necessary to protect workers from being abused , but these days there are many laws in place to prevent that. One only has to look at the disintegration of the union movement and power over the last 10 years to see how they are becoming less relevant. There may be some positive things ACPA has done for its membership but from this outsiders perspective it's been a downhill slide for years. We shall see in the upcoming negots whether this will continue.
No question the person in the article comes off looking bad but try to remember that dealing with the press can be a tricky business. They have all the power.
It's all a complicated issue but change is coming and the process has to start somewhere. I would not be in favour of Capt. Ennis continuing in his current position including all perks associated with that position. There has to be some compromise to get the ball rolling and to even out the percieved and real inequities that the current system has brought us to.
Lost in Saigon
15th Mar 2011, 16:40
It's all a complicated issue but change is coming and the process has to start somewhere. I would not be in favour of Capt. Ennis continuing in his current position including all perks associated with that position. There has to be some compromise to get the ball rolling and to even out the percieved and real inequities that the current system has brought us to.
The way I see it, it's all or nothing now. There is no way you can have some sort of compromise that would not be tied to age, and age discrimination is illegal.
ACPA had the chance to work this out many years ago. It would have been so easy to implement a formula where a number pilots could retire early in exchange for the same number staying past 60. There is never a shortage of pilots wanting to go early with no penalty. It could have been a win/win situation. (no carreer stagnation) (less training) (similar payroll obligation) (similar pension obligation)
Maybe it's not too late
clunckdriver
15th Mar 2011, 18:03
Royal, Unions less relevant? I sugest you take a few moments to have a chat with some of the pilots flying for a certain short haul outfit out of Ontario, you might, after listning to them , come to the conclusion that in some cases unions are needed more now than ever before! I think it was Nixon who said, "Bad unions are always a response to bad managment". Mind you he also said" Im not a crook!"
engfireleft
15th Mar 2011, 18:05
Maybe it's not too late
Yes it's too late. While some proactive compromise implemented twenty years ago and modified as time went on would have certainly made the transition easier, it would not in any way have stopped the demise of mandatory retirement or even slowed it down. Air Canada pilots are not driving the program here and although our ego's don't like to admit it we are not effecting any change that society hasn't already done years ago.
The only thing our refusal to adapt our thinking along with society has done is delayed the inevitable for our pilot group. Since we live and work in Canada we are subject to its laws and mandatory retirement would have ended at Air Canada even if no Air Canada pilot challenged it. But now that change is all the more traumatic thanks to our singular and continuing lack of vision.
Phil340
15th Mar 2011, 18:06
I believe at one time we had a clause in the contract for retirement at 57 and no penalty. It was hardly used and traded for something that was eventually lost in CCAA. Maybe someone more knowledgable could correct me on this.
royalterrace
15th Mar 2011, 18:54
clunkdriver
Here's another one for you...Companies get the unions they deserve.
Let's face it. Unions have had their day. The pendulum swung too far to the left and now it's payback time. Union contracts all over North America have been immolated. Ask the CAW. Ask ACPA.
The only unions making any gains are the government unions. They are still on the gravy train but only because of their unique situation. That is , WE get to pay their outsizes pensions and juicy pay packets because our politicians are giving away OUR money to avoid nasty situations that might affect their re-election.
There are scores of pilots in North America who are severely underpaid but that is the result of problems much more complicated than non-unionisation.
clunckdriver
15th Mar 2011, 19:56
Royal, you wont get any argument from me on the subject of Government employees being on a gravy train. Here is a good example, to correct a problem with my hands which I inherited from my Irish father I recently went under the knife to get the problem fixed {One hand at a time mind you} After he was done with the sharp things the surgeon asked me when I was flying next, rather sheepishly I said "Is five AM tomorow too early?" On hearing this he burst out laughing and stated, "The last silly servant I did this procedure on recieved a month of on FULL PAY!" Yes, in the case of Silly Servants its gone way too far, but with of many of the upstart airlines the employees do need a strong union, not just for pay but to stop the bullying and presure tactics so common in the industry. they seem to have a gift for selecting the very worst type into management positions.{And yes, we did fly the next day with no problems , mind you I did blame one of my "thumpers" on the hand!}
That's a very broad brush you're painting with there clunk. I could tell some doozies about line pilots, F/As, engineers, crew schedulers and even managers who milked the system. Thing is, in every case, they were a small minority among their peers.
nolimitholdem
16th Mar 2011, 14:11
I really have no dog in this fight , but I guess I pipe up because I am so strongly against "other forces" determining ones destiny. I'm a strong believer in making ones own decisions and standing by them and reaping the rewards or consequences.
I believe this is both the strength and flaw in your position. At first blush, it all sounds very grand and noble, "determining ones destiny" and whatnot. But did not every pilot at Air Canada "make their own decisions" to join based on the conditions offered to them? Did not until very recently, those conditions include mandatory retirement at age 60?
So who exactly is not "standing by their decision"? Seems like Top Gun in the paper there, doesn't like the consequences of his decision to accept the AC terms of employment he accepted, lo those 39 years earlier. It's not hard to see why the public isn't buying his bull****. He could at least have TRIED not to come across as so self-serving.
I'm pretty sure this is why pilots making wages less than this clown's pension have fought against these "other forces" you mention.
royalterrace
16th Mar 2011, 23:40
NLH
One of the arguments brought up again and again is the " you knew what the deal was , now live with it". While keeping ones word is admirable , I don't think it quite so simple. I'm sure there have been a lot of things in contracts of 40 , 30 , 20 years ago that have changed due to the changes in laws of the land over that period of time. This looks like it will be another one of them.
The problem all comes down to money (as it always does). I can't imagine that anyone would not want to have control over their own retirement age. Some want to go early. Some want to fly till they die. It's of EVERYONES benefit to be able to decide due to their own circumstances. I fully agree that some will have windfall gains and others upward progression will be delayed. Therin , lies the crux of the matter.
There are things that can be done to mitigate the damage done to those lower on the totem pole but it will require the co-operation of those higher up. It will take a lot of compromise on both sides and will tear your current contract (and way of airline life) to shreads. I believe this has a lot to do with ACPA's steadfast determination to fight this at all costs. People generally hate any change , let alone the change required to make this thing equitable.
As the pro 60 posters have repeatedly said " this should have been done internally years ago" because the alternative is having it rammed down your throat by the government anyway and that's usually a disaster for everyone.
Anyway , I hope the matter can be resolved in such a way that those who want to continue working , can , without unduly affecting their co-workers too negatively.
engfireleft
17th Mar 2011, 15:45
I believe this is both the strength and flaw in your position. At first blush, it all sounds very grand and noble, "determining ones destiny" and whatnot. But did not every pilot at Air Canada "make their own decisions" to join based on the conditions offered to them? Did not until very recently, those conditions include mandatory retirement at age 60?
I was never asked if I agreed to retire at age 60. I was never asked to sign anything forfeiting my human rights.
Are you suggesting that by agreeing to work here we have no right to ask for changes to our contract? Are you saying that if we disagree with anything in our contract we are duty bound to vote it down or give up any right to try and change it in the next one?
That argument is often used by people trying to paint the FP60 group as unethical. But they conveniently forget the hundreds of other aspects to the working conditions they try to change all the time with no apparent ethical conflict. In otherwords it is complete self-serving hypocritical bull****.
clevlandHD
17th Mar 2011, 16:09
eng fire left, you just put the finger on it: others try to bring change (through the collective aggrement/negots) while the FP60 group tries to IMPOSE change (through court). Fly beyond 60 should only be addressed in conjonction with the next contract. Full stop.
Lost in Saigon
17th Mar 2011, 16:27
The FP60 group did try to negotiate change many years ago. Can you guess what happened?
I am sure they would have been happy with an age 65 retirement age. But because they were FORCED to go to the CHRT, it now looks like we will have to accept NO maximum mandatory retirement age.
Good planning on ACPA's part.
engfireleft
17th Mar 2011, 16:34
Fly beyond 60 should only be addressed in conjonction with the next contract. Full stop.
Human rights are a matter of law. Addressing it within our contract wouldn't change that fact, but our pilots weren't willing to do that anyway so the law caught up with us. That's our fault.
Jet Jockey A4
18th Mar 2011, 11:56
I would like to add something to this debate if I may.
I think one should be able to retire at age of 65 if one meets all the standards (medical, flying abilities, etc).
It is discrimination to force someone out of a job at 60 years old.
As for the younger pilots saying it is greed to stay on and not allow them to move up the ladder, I say... In due time! Yes it will take some of them a bit longer to get onto the equipment they really want to fly. Yes it will take a bit longer to perhaps hold the left seat. Yes it will take them a bit longer before they retire (if they choose to do so). But in the end if they do retire at age 65, they will have also contributed an extra 5 years to the pension fund.
Lastly, this week the Quebec government (and I'm sure others will follow) in a new budget said they would start penalizing people who retire before the age of 65 and that is reason enough to allow pilots to fly until 65.
Excerpt from the budget...
"Something also had to be done about pensions, given the impending avalanche of babyboomer retirees and the fact that at current contribution rates the provincial pension plan was facing bankruptcy by 2040. The budget's imposition of a 0.15-per-cent annual contribution increase for the six coming years is hardly crippling, amounting to just short of $170 a year by the time the hike is fully implemented for people earning $40,000 a year.
Also commendable is the measure to discourage early retirement by penalizing those who opt to retire before age 65 and rewarding those who work longer. The early-retirement penalty will be raised to 0.6 per cent monthly from 0.5 per cent, and the bonus for those who keep working until age 70 is raised from 0.5 per cent to 0.7 per cent. And starting next year, workers over 65 can get a tax credit of up to $1,504 a year."
clevlandHD
18th Mar 2011, 12:46
Jet Jockey, notice that the changes will be implemented over 6 years! There is a contract at AC and 1 clause should not be changed overnight (to serve a few while being detrimental to many). The change should be implemented over a period of time and other aspects of the contract changed with it. This is too massive to be dealt on its own. I work at another outfit where there is no discrimination on pay based on the size of the jet we fly... and we had no issue to raise the retirement from 60 to 65.
Jet Jockey A4
18th Mar 2011, 12:59
clevlandHD,
I believe the increases are to be made over a 6 year period starting now but the penalties will start right away for anyone retiring before 60. However without the actual wording of the budget this is speculation.
I'm also in favour of companies like yours (and mine) that pay the same salary regardless of equipment type.
Perhaps you are correct and the age 65 rule could be introduced over a period of time. Maybe it would ease the pain for both groups. :{
engfireleft
18th Mar 2011, 13:38
Jet Jockey, notice that the changes will be implemented over 6 years! There is a contract at AC and 1 clause should not be changed overnight (to serve a few while being detrimental to many). The change should be implemented over a period of time and other aspects of the contract changed with it.
You're absolutely right ClevelandHD, it should have been implemented over a period of time in conjunction with other aspects of the contract. But the time to do that was twenty years ago when it was plain to see that mandatory retirement in Canada was on the way out.
We didn't do that when we should have. Since then the situation in Canada changed from "mandatory retirement on the way out", to "mandatory retirement gone", and still we have done nothing to prepare for it. We have no choice but to change now, and our unwillingness to prepare for it or even accept the reality that is now upon us is making it that much more difficult. But change we must.
a330pilotcanada
18th Mar 2011, 13:55
"they will have also contributed an extra 5 years to the pension fund"
Good Morning Jet Jockey:
With regards to your above mentioned statement maximum pension benefits are reached after accruing thirty five years of contribution to the pension plan which is has a provision for your best five years to accrue maximum M.P.U.
What would have to be considered is pay pension payments past thirty five years. Is this a contractual item? I would believe that it is and I am sure those who are more in tune with the contract and actuarial tables should comment on this.
The debate on "status pay" and "formula pay" will go on for ever as each side has it's benefits.
Some airlines that use status pay has senior people doing day time turn a round on an A-320 while the younger people are on super long haul heavy aircraft. As a personal observation the long haul kicks the crap out of you and on a personal observation seeing some of my contemporaries still in the system they look much older than their chronological age. Nevertheless, with some with the use of hair dye and Grecian grey but I digress.........
Formula pay gives weight (no pun intended) to the heavier aircraft which in your last five years as Captain to bulk up on your pension contributions so your pension pay out is higher.
The only comment I will make on pension is this it is your second most important pay cheque for the rest of your life.
Jet Jockey A4
18th Mar 2011, 15:08
"Good Morning Jet Jockey:"
And the same to you sir!
"With regards to your above mentioned statement maximum pension benefits are reached after accruing thirty five years of contribution to the pension plan which is has a provision for your best five years to accrue maximum M.P.U.
What would have to be considered is pay pension payments past thirty five years. Is this a contractual item? I would believe that it is and I am sure those who are more in tune with the contract and actuarial tables should comment on this."
I'm sure something could be worked out to include an extra 5 years of contribution in the next negociations.
"The debate on "status pay" and "formula pay" will go on for ever as each side has it's benefits.
Some airlines that use status pay has senior people doing day time turn a round on an A-320 while the younger people are on super long haul heavy aircraft. As a personal observation the long haul kicks the crap out of you and on a personal observation seeing some of my contemporaries still in the system they look much older than their chronological age. Nevertheless, with some with the use of hair dye and Grecian grey but I digress.........
Formula pay gives weight (no pun intended) to the heavier aircraft which in your last five years as Captain to bulk up on your pension contributions so your pension pay out is higher."
I will agree with you on this. Both systems have their pros and cons and I'm sure it will always be a subject of debate in the airline world. Fortunately I left the airline world in 1991 and I have been very happy in the corporate world.
The difference between the two are; the airline world gets paid to fly aircrafts (many hours per year) and the corporate world gets paid to wait (many hours per year). :)
"The only comment I will make on pension is this it is your second most important pay cheque for the rest of your life."
I like that comment and how true it is!
clunckdriver
18th Mar 2011, 16:05
Jet Jockey, remember what Churchill said, "They also serve who sit and wait", He must have seen corporate flying coming!
av8tor68
19th Mar 2011, 04:53
I'm sure something could be worked out to include an extra 5 years of contribution in the next negociations.
With reference to pensions … a pension is limited (within the bounds of legislation) only to what you can negotiate.
For instance, you can go beyond the AC plan’s 35 year maximum and have no restriction on the number of years of Pensionable Service; e.g., if you work 39 years and 6 months, then you are eligible for a pension based on 39 years and 6 months of service.
You can have your pension based on your best 36 months Final Average Earnings instead of the more restrictive best 60 months as is the case in the AC pilot’s plan.
You can have a pension rule wherein you can elect 100% survivor benefit for your spouse, instead of the 60% restriction in the AC pilot’s plan.
You can have a pension rule written into the plan that provides for indexation, and one that can’t be taken away from you in arbitration, as was the case with the AC pilots who lost their indexation “agreement” with the employer because it was held outside the plan text. Etc., etc.
All you need is a little imagination and resolve to make things better. You just have to want to do so. The OCP pilots negotiated the above-mentioned benefits to their pension plan more than 20 years ago, but ACPA wanted nothing to do with the OCP Pension Plan in the aftermath of AC merging CP into their operation. That fortress mentality turned out to be very telling in terms of what the future was to hold for all of us. Its position on mandatory retirement today serves to demonstrate that not much has changed within the walls of the fortress.
Pity. Things could be so much better for everyone if only for a moment they could see fit to stop boiling their oil and drop the drawbridge. Because as they are soon to discover, once you’ve run out of oil … then what?
engfireleft
19th Mar 2011, 15:49
That fortress mentality permeates ACPA (and our pilot group) so completely they think they are the dog and the rest of the world is the tail. But every now and again an issue like this comes along that clearly demonstrates the reverse and we just cannot accept it.
ACPA loses most fights it engages in, and it engages in a lot of them. They lose because years ago they cut themselves off from the rest of the world in the belief they can do better going it alone. History proves them wrong because while we sit in smug satisfaction at how good we are the world keeps on going without us. We are the mennonite colony that can't understand why everybody else isn't driving horse drawn buggies.
publius
31st Mar 2011, 08:23
31st Mar 2011, 02:48
Oldaircrew
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 11
The seniority system is the worst system devised by the wit of man; except for all the others(with apologies to Winston Churchill)
clunckdriver
31st Mar 2011, 17:28
Publius, well said, in fact bloody perfect!
767-300ER
1st Apr 2011, 23:36
It is very amusing to listen to the FP60 cabal rant about how ACPA is getting hammered every time it turns around...
It is amusing to read the revisionist history by a few that claim this all would have be averted had the retirement age been raised to 65 when a few demanded this.... right, and then some poor, recently turned 66 pilot would have wandered to the CHRT and claim that his "rights" have been infringed...
PS... As far as I can tell, the FP60 cabal have only won the reinstatement of 2 pilots on a non-precedent basis, failed to get a cease and desist order, lost a Judicial Review of CHRT ruling for VK, and now we await a second review of the VK with respect of the BFOR....and a Federal Court of Appeal hearing....and a parliamentary loss of the legislation....
While you guys wait for the next couple of years, enjoy your retirement....
a330pilotcanada
23rd Apr 2011, 12:31
Good Morning All:
Does anyone know if Mr Ennis did go to THY after all?
clunckdriver
25th Apr 2011, 14:31
Some one in Winterpeg must know, they cant all be out at the dikes and pumps!
MackTheKnife
25th Apr 2011, 16:36
According to the article on page 1, he only retires at the end of April.
Clunkdriver, What has Winterpeg got to do with Ennis? He has been based in YYZ for 25 years and lives in Oakville?
clunckdriver
26th Apr 2011, 16:48
In that case then someone in Toronto should know, however the Fly Past 60 group would seem to have their legal rep in Winterpeg, thus the question, OK?
Efe Cem Elci
5th May 2011, 15:30
According to an article published today in the foremost online aviation news portal Airporthaber.com (translates to airportnews), Capt. Ennis was not accepted to fly with Turkish Airlines. The article states that the ordeal was discussed extensively in international aviation forums (I wonder where... :}) and some users stated that he had already started flying Boeing 777's for Turkish. However, according to the article, based on Turkish Airlines sources the Canadian pilot was not able to pass the recruitment phases necessary for employment and the application was rejected.
source (in Turkish) (http://www.airporthaber.com/kanadali-pilot-thy-imtihanina-takildi--32207h.html)
royalterrace
6th May 2011, 21:38
This article is from...Airline Biz Blog | dallasnews.com (http://aviationblog.dallasnews.com/)
American Airlines has nearly seven pilots over 60 for every one pilot under 40.
That's a little factoid included in the Allied Pilot Association's weekly News Digest that it sent to its members this week.
When I began covering American in 1990, it wasn't uncommon for a pilot in his or her early 30s to make captain with only five or six years of seniority.
That's certainly not the case now.
Here are the stats from the union:
• 94% of AA pilots are at 12th year of pay longevity. That's the top of the pay scale, meaning that they aren't getting pay raises unless they move to a bigger airplane or move from first officer to captain.
• Average age of AA pilots: 51.6 years
• Average age AA Captains: 54.4 years
• Average age AA First Officers: 49.3 years
• AA pilots under 40 years old: 83
• AA pilots over 60 years old: 560
• Years of service of most junior AA Captain: 18.8 years (date of hire: August 1992)
The mandatory retirement age for commercial pilots in the United States is 65. Until Dec. 13, 2007, it was set at age 60.
The younger pilots at American and other airlines that haven't been growing weren't happy about the extension of the retirement age since it delayed by five years their move to better-paying airplanes or to the captain's seat.
On the other hand, cutbacks in pay and years on furlough have prompted many older pilots to stick
Vic777
8th May 2011, 19:06
According to an article published today in the foremost online aviation news portal Airporthaber.com (translates to airportnews), Capt. Ennis was not accepted to fly with Turkish Airlines. The article states that the ordeal was discussed extensively in international aviation forums (I wonder where... ) and some users stated that he had already started flying Boeing 777's for Turkish. However, according to the article, based on Turkish Airlines sources the Canadian pilot was not able to pass the recruitment phases necessary for employment and the application was rejected.This is probably not true ..... It's obvious that the Turks realize that in a short time he will be back with AC and so they will not get a return on their investment. Also with all the unrest in the region, travel is down. Given the Globe and Mail article, his acceptance by Turkish was doomed.
sec 3
10th May 2011, 18:56
you just don't want to believe it's true. Believe it buddy. 2 AC guys failed the sim here in the ME a few years ago. I witnessed a close to retirement AC fellow totally botch a raw data approach in the 330 sim for an Indian company, only to be followed by a myriad of excuses why. The fact is your boy failed the interview at THY:sad:
clunckdriver
10th May 2011, 23:51
Did he get as far as the interview? After his rather derogatory remarks about THY in the media I doubt that he got that far, if he did he certainly pissed in the pickles after the interview, not a career extending move for sure!
Johnny767
11th May 2011, 15:57
Time to lay off the Melatonin, Vic, it is giving you Vivid Dreams. Nobody is coming - back - to A/C.
Two guys got back and one guy pooched the course.
The age will change, but nobody else is coming back. The Airline would be brought to its knees if the door was opened to any retired Pilot that wanted back.
Ennis is an embarrasment to the profession. Take your "golden" career and scram - like all those honorable Pilots before you.
It made my day that Turkish told him to hit the road.
Flatface
19th May 2011, 22:09
If a pilot does return after age 60, does he continue to collect his pension?
If not, does he continue to contribute?
Does he revert back to pre age 60 medical and dental benefits? IE he stops paying for his post retirement health and dental insurance and goes back to the company paid benefit.
a330pilotcanada
12th Jun 2011, 02:15
Good Evening Flatface:
To the best of my knowledge no, once back pension stops and he/she is back on the pay roll.
Your second question I would believe if he/she has not attained the 35 years they would have to keep contributing until 35 years of service is attained.
As far as benefits are concerned would someone more knowledgeable comment on this please?
With reference to the first two answers would someone confirm that as I have no information to back this up?
cykzstudent
13th Jun 2011, 01:03
https://secure.globeadvisor.com/servlet/ArticleNews/story/gam/20110507/RBTICKERA0507ATL_1
Saturday, May 7, 2011
Brent Jang
Captain Michael Ennis has retired as the No. 1 pilot on Air Canada's seniority list. Mr. Ennis turned 60 last month, and under the labour pact between the airline and the Air Canada Pilots Association, he was forced into mandatory retirement last Sunday. He said in an interview that he originally planned to start flying for Istanbul-based Turkish Airlines this week, but has changed his plans. Mr. Ennis said that after discussing his career with his wife and their two grown children, he decided to stay in Canada for personal reasons. "Family considerations prevent me from accepting a job offer at a foreign airline at this time," he said Friday, adding that he is now "looking for a flying position" in the Toronto region. Mr. Ennis rose to the top of the seniority list in February, 2010.
a330pilotcanada
13th Jun 2011, 02:36
Good Evening cykzstudent:
Thanks for the link like a lot of people I was curious on this whole affair ended for Mr Ennis.
Did he end up at Porter or what ever the new outfit that is also flying out of the island?
YYZBeacher
24th Jun 2011, 14:57
Michael is a decent guy and loved his job. But his sense of entitlement got to the point where it certainly started to get on my nerves...but at the grand old age of 39 and an FO on the same fleet Michael was on - with 21 years to run in the current regime, I wonder when I am 59.5, if I'll be the same pain-in-the-butt Michael and his FP60 cronies are today?
royalterrace
26th Jun 2011, 16:04
YYZbeacher
You sound like a smart man.
I have to laugh at these guys that say , "I'll never this , or I'll never that".
Stuff happens. Things change.
er340790
10th Jul 2011, 19:33
$120k pension p.a.
And people wonder why AC is always hopelessly bankrupt...
My advice is to take the pension and run - AC will never be able to pay them all much longer!
Flatface
10th Jul 2011, 22:26
Wrong!!! The Air Canada pension plan is underfunded by 2.1 billion dollars, what that means if the company shut down today, the LIABILITIES the pension plan must pay is 13 billiion dollars. So everyone will get paid, but will have to take a haircut of about 25% of what they expected.
Keep in mind this was an actuarial calculation using rules set out by the OSFI on the date of the calculations. The rules can change and the returns on investment can change, this could improve the amount the pension is funded for better or for worse.
I believe the upper limit that can be drawn the Air Canada Pension plan is $57,750, as this is 70% of $82500 maximum ceiling that pension is calculated on.
The pilot's have a supplementary pension plan, these contributions go in general revenues, and may not be protected in CCAA or bankruptcy. If I am mistaken, someone who has better information can correct me.
In the event of the pension closing down, there are three rules for payout.
Those over 65 on pension will continue to receive their lifetime pensions, minus the unfunded portion.
Those that retired early, all of the payments that they have already received will be subtracted from their contributions with interest minus the unfunded portion, if they have collected more than this amount, they will receive no more payments from the pension fund.
Those who are still working and contributing, will receive a refund of their contributions with interest minus the unfunded portion.
This pension fund in not a ponzi scheme and each participant completely funds his own retirement, it does not depend on the contributions of present workers or future workers, as some have alluded to. Both the member's contributions and the company's contributions are deferred wages.
In my opinion, contribution holidays should not be allowed. There is a rule that does not allow companies to over fund pensions by more than 10%, because some have hidden profits avoiding income taxes, the plan members should not be penalized for this, nor do I believe that surpluses should be withdrawn.
breguet
11th Jul 2011, 21:04
The pilots have a different pension plan than the rest of Air Canada employees. If I remember well, it is better funded than Employees AC Pension Plan, meaning the deficit is less.
Mandatory retirement upheld at Air Canada
July 11, 2011 17:07:00 Susan Pigg
Staff Reporter
A Canadian Human Rights Tribunal has upheld Air Canada’s right to force pilots to retire at the age of 60.
Overturning retirement in the cockpit would lead to increased operational costs, scheduling difficulties and have “negative ramifications” for the pilots’ pension plan and collective agreement, according to the 19-page ruling.
Both Air Canada and the pilots’ union were pleased saying the ruling upholds decades-old provisions in the collective agreement that ensures senior pilots, who can make $239,000 a year, don’t block the career advancement of younger pilots.
Air Canada warned, and the tribunal agreed, that it would face severe scheduling difficulties if pilots were allowed to fly past 60: The International Civil Aviation Authority (ICAO) requires that a younger pilot be in the cockpit with older pilots on flights over international airspace. That’s 80 per cent of Air Canada flights.
The ruling on a case involving pilots George Vilven, 67, and Neil Kelly, 65 — the third on a case that has deeply divided Air Canada’s pilots and lead to a raft of other similar cases. Raymond Hall, a lawyer representing the two pilots, called the ruling "seriously flawed" and said he plans to appeal to the Federal Court.
The case could drag on for years more unless the federal government presses forward on a bill to end the last vestiges of mandatory retirement in Canada, warns Susan Eng of CARP (the Canadian Association of Retired Persons) which is lobbying for legislation.
Bill C-481, which died when the federal election was called, would have repealed a section of the Canadian Human Rights Act that allows federally regulated businesses, such as transportation and banking, to terminate employees who’ve reached “the normal age of retirement” in their sector.
Mandatory retirement upheld at Air Canada - thestar.com (http://www.thestar.com/business/companies/article/1023259--mandatory-retirement-upheld-at-air-canada)
a330pilotcanada
3rd Aug 2011, 09:20
Good Morning All:
I just got this as a email from a friend inside the airline.
There will be probably more court challenges to this........................
Age 60
Flight Operations has removed First Officers Kelly and Vilven from the August PBS process. This is a direct result of last month’s Canadian Human Rights Tribunal decision on their complaints, which found that retirement at age 60 under the terms of our Collective Agreement is a Bona Fide Occupational Requirement (BFOR).
engfireleft
3rd Aug 2011, 14:16
There will be probably more court challenges to this........................
Probably? You're a master at understatement.
I wonder if ACPA has considered the possibility of paying half the salaries of these gentlemen for the time it takes to get this ruling tossed out? No doubt the company has since it cuts their cost liability in half and shifts it onto the pilots.
Lysdexia
3rd Aug 2011, 17:24
I just got this as a email from a friend inside the airline. ...
First of all, you posted it in the wrong thread.
Second, does the fact that you received the text from "a friend inside the airline" indicate that you, yourself, are not or are no longer inside the airline, despite you lengthy criticisms of those who wish to remain employed within the airline?