IndiGo with more fake pilots [Archive]

TopTup

9th Mar 2011, 11:27

Sleeze, while I do not disagree with you I am truly surprised: happily so! Am glad you did not go through what both myself and the other DGCA approved TRE/I's did at airlines such as Air India.

The overwhelming majority of ex IAF "Commanders" I had experience with via personal experience and colleagues' conversations detailed nothing but archaic methods of bastardry techniques belittling those they saw beneath them: the FO's and FA's to name but two. CRM skills were as alien to them as humility and integrity, least of all common human courtesy. The FO's were the worse because you would witness how they kissed the tail of the Capt they were with as opposed to how they treated the FA's. You just knew the true charactor of the person behind all the BS.

Air India and the entire DGCA is a despicable cesspit of abhorrent corruption. There are of course some highly talented individual pilots out there and it is shame to see their passion and skill caught up in this.

I flew with an ex-IAF instructor (at AI as 777 FO) who's x-wind take off technique drew a "taking over" call from me at <100 ft AGL (JFK). Zero technique applied and zero scope to see what was happening as a result of this severe lack of skill and training. (Wide body transports operate differently to single pilots jets. He didn't get it, was never taught and didn't want to know either). Who to blame? Him or the SYSTEM that checked him to line and deems this OK?

So far in the past few months we've seen kids forging log books to mask 20 hours as >200 hrs, others checked to line on 737NG (in the case at point), etc yet unable to recover from straight & level flight once the autopilot is kicked out, "Commanders" landing on the nose gear, more and more "Captains" with forged credentials, license theory passes and certificates (from flying school to airline to the regulatory body...). Also, don't forget!! In India EVERY pilot is called "Captain" be they playing flight sim on their desktop or FO with 185 hrs TT in the RHS of 777 over Afghanistan.

And what of Mangalore? Lives lost and truths uncovered yet covered up quicker. What was the knee jerk reaction of the airline with ZERO evidence immediately after the crash: blame the expat. Pure and utter xenophobia that is also rampant and supported.

Now look at the expat contracts: rampant with fraud from shady dealings between shady agencies and corrupt as hell departments at airlines such as AI.

Some FO's told me of their "batch-mates" bribing DGCA officials to "lose" their colleagues papers for ATPL certification or endorsement licensing so they could get 3 or 6 months ahead of them in the pecking order.

FO's logging P1 U/S for legs flown as well and those not flown by them whether the Capt was TRI qualified or not. Of course these sectors have to be signed off and stamped by the relevant PIC. That isn't hard to do when a kid presents a log book with a multitude of post-it stickers throughout it, banking on either the TRI's ignorance or willing compliance to keep the "system" he/she graduated from alive and well. Then with seemingly minimal REAL time these corrupt children are made "Commander"!!!!

Corruption is an ops normal means of business in that part of the world and that industry. The FAA, ICAO and Boeing are but 3 bodies aware of what goes on via numerous reports submitted.......and nothing.

Some minimal searching on this forum will offer up some behind the scenes truths.

Fly as pax on a VT reg? NEVER.

A380 Jockey

9th Mar 2011, 14:18

I personally know a young colleague of mine in Indigo who has privately informed me(on numerous instances,I might add),that a certain Capt.:mad: who was an executive with indigo for quite some time,had quite blatantly asked him and his colleagues to clear their ATP papers and if you can't-"contact this person,and he will do the needful"...with a name and a number scribbled on a piece of paper.
On contact,'this person' turned out to be a very close relative of this Capt.:mad:,who claimed he had amazing 'contact's' with the Dgca and quite openly declared that he and :mad:could help 'generate' marksheets from the Dgca for a fee(of course).
This racket apparantely had been going on since the very inception of the company.
I have a strong feeling that these names will crop up, as and when these fake pilots succumb to basic interrogation.Just a matter of time,i guess.
From my side,I can't confirm the authenticity of all of this,but can use my common sense to make some decent judgements....:)

pax britanica

9th Mar 2011, 15:03

Seems like old habits/views /prejudices die hard.

Many years ago was idling way an evening listening to various LHR frequencies on my airband and heard PanAM 747 asked to call 'company'
What Pan Am Ops wanted to do was advise the crew of some scheduled changes and after detailing the plans for the FO and FE after their next stop they got onto telling the captian he would be returnign to New York on Air India XXX. To which he replied in best imperious PA captain tones I do not fly on Air India! The Ops officer misheard and repeated the instruction and got ina louder an even more emphatic toe Maam I do not fly on air India -yyou have to find me another route.

Two years later and my BA flight from JFK to London goes technical and the BA custoemr service rep informs me I am rebooked on.......Air India to London. Well I thought if ts not good enough for Pan Am skipper its not good enough for me so I made fuss -not much of one -and got tranfered to TWA instead. So the story gives its own age away but it seems that many years on people still have concerns about flying on Indian airlines.

I have to say that the faked licences and qualifications bit is really very scary, impersonating an airline pilot actually on the flight deck must be one of the harder deceptions to pull off surely?

Prober

9th Mar 2011, 21:14

Maybe all this faking and corruption is going on. I don't know, so cannot comment, but my years (and years) tell me that there is no smoke without fire. However, surely all this fascinating "information" so far rather begs the question: if a creature habitually lands on the nosewheel, the question is not "How come that creature was promoted captain?" but "What on earth is such a creature doing on the flight deck in the first place?"

Dengue_Dude

9th Mar 2011, 21:55

In my year with Biman Bangladesh the levels of graft, sleaze and corruption I saw were staggering.

It surprises me not in the least that unlicensed pilots have thrived in the sub-continent.

BUT, when I consider the one or two pilots that were on the DC10 with Airtours who had 'questionable' hours, I don't see that we can be too quick with finger pointing.

The individuals concerned could not do all that they have done alone, the corruption is quite wide-spread.

Pilot's Dad

10th Mar 2011, 01:19

Inviting your comments on this news item. DGCA is corrupt from head to toe. Looks like at last the new DGCA Chief and Civil Aviation Minister trying to do some work!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:D

March 10, 2011: NEW DELHI: Alarmed at the startling discovery of fake commanders, the civil aviation ministry has ordered a thorough verification of all currently valid pilot licences in the country. "About 4,000 co-pilots and commanders are working with airlines here and their papers are being verified. We have accordingly advised the Directorate General of Civil Aviation (DGCA)," aviation secretary Nasim Zaidi told TOI on Wednesday, while describing the biggest of its kind drive ever launched in India's aviation sector.

DGCA is learnt to have started the process by first looking into the papers of those who the 1,700-odd pilots with desi airlines who have become commanders by claiming to have passed the mandatory airline transport pilot licence (ATPL) exam conducted by it. All the three cases detected so far have been of fake commanders. DGCA chief Bharat Bhushan has referred the two new cases to the crime branch. "The verification is progressing well," said Bhushan.

Despite a crippling manpower shortage, a crack team in DGCA is expected to finish the process at the earliest. In fact, some changes within the organisation have been made by Zaidi and Bhushan. It is reliably learnt that persons with doubtful credentials have been removed from examination branch and their juniors with a clean reputation have been asked to handle this crucial department.

Industry sources say this kind of malpractice is unlikely to have happened without insider support. "Instead of just cancelling the licence obtained on fake papers that the DGCA's authorised to do, top authorities decided to refer the matter to the police so that the suspected insider role can also be probed. This happened despite resistance from certain quarters within the DGCA who possibly fear that a police probe may lead to their doorstep," said sources.

TopTup

10th Mar 2011, 09:47

a crack team in DGCA

There's the first oxymoron.

Industry sources say this kind of malpractice is unlikely to have happened without insider support.

There's another naive and ignorant comment.

a police probe may lead to their doorstep

Not really if you pay enough to keep them too at bay.

Pilot's Dad:
While I admire your desire it is greatly miscalculated I'm sorry to tell you. What of the many, many pilots who actually did pass the exams in the correct manner? The fact that some of these still haven't the minimal piloting skill to safely occupy a control seat in a heavy jet transport seems to go un-noticed. Will the cesspit of corruption also investigate the ritualized fraudulent line and sim checks / evaluations where countless pilots are passed as standard or satisfactory despite never completing the required profile to fly and pass? Or those who do fail are quickly and illegally placed back in the cockpit (first hand account of this)??

What we see here is a large movement not entirely governed to improve safety standards but coming from those who see this as a way to get a job. Self desire, not industry safety. (See the Sth East Asia forums to see the tone there). Not long ago a "wannnabe" posted how a pilot for AI or Jet had a serious car accident (or something of the like). His post was along the lines of how good it was that another job at that airline was now available.

Still, I trust things do progress and those employed as a direct result of corrupt and negligent means are identified and correctly punished. Then again we must also face realities. One's past is the greatest indicator of the one's future. Removing corruption from the DGCA and AI is like prescribing a lobotomy. It is so inherently part of the the entire system, airline airline culture and network that to remove it leaves an empty shell. (It would still be more productive).

So I say again: NEVER EVER fly as pax on a VT registered aircraft. How much evidence of abhorrent corruption does one need yet people still are willing to put their lives in jeopardy?

Fly Zone TRA

10th Mar 2011, 21:38

@TopTup it's easy to avoid a VT reg flight while flying itnl I guess but what can your do while flying regional? That seems to be the bigger concern as of now since majority of pilots are recruited in the regional and domestic sectors.

Another thing which needs to be seen is that some of these kids may not have actually faked these hours. From what I heard years back from colleagues and candidates who had applied for their new CPLs at that time was that log books and papers were deliberately declared lost by the clerks and other work level officials in order to push the candidates into a corner with the fear of losing their currency (which would take more money to regain as they'd have to go back abroad to attain it) and extorting money out of them for issuing licenses.

When such a system prevails where even the honest are pushed to the edge and people are given the common belief that hard work and procedures don't matter as long as you can " Pay Up ", even those who have worked for it stop doing it, knowing that at the end it's only going to be the money that'll matter. And the incompetent of course are the first ones to grab an opportunity like this.

For all one might know, some of these kids may be of the lot whose papers "were lost" rather deliberately in order to make them pay up even though they might've completed their hours. (at least at an earlier stage of training)

But I also must say that from what I've heard Mr. Nasim Zaidi is actually one of the most honest officials in the aviation sector today with a prime agenda of cleaning up the system. Well I hope what they say is true and the Indian aviation sector ever sees the light of the day.

Jane-DoH

19th Mar 2011, 19:21

A380 Jockey

I personally know a young colleague of mine in Indigo who has privately informed me(on numerous instances,I might add),that a certain Capt. :mad: who was an executive with indigo for quite some time,had quite blatantly asked him and his colleagues to clear their ATP papers and if you can't-"contact this person,and he will do the needful"...with a name and a number scribbled on a piece of paper.
On contact,'this person' turned out to be a very close relative of this Capt. :mad: ,who claimed he had amazing 'contact's' with the Dgca and quite openly declared that he and :mad: could help 'generate' marksheets from the Dgca for a fee(of course).

:eek:

I assume India has a higher incidence of aviation accidents than the US, UK, Canada, Australia and so forth?

This racket apparantely had been going on since the very inception of the company.

Completely endemic. That means the corruption is right to the core and is probably deeply entrenched.

I have a strong feeling that these names will crop up, as and when these fake pilots succumb to basic interrogation.Just a matter of time,i guess.
From my side,I can't confirm the authenticity of all of this,but can use my common sense to make some decent judgements.... :)

Well, I hope this racket becomes exposed sooner than later. The problem with corruption this endemic and entrenched is that it is often quite capable of protecting itself.

captjns

20th Mar 2011, 06:20

Time for the rest of the aviation world to demand and investigation and oversight from ICAO, as it appears India is either reluctant or can't cleant their own skies.

flap3reverseidle

21st Mar 2011, 07:42

We have been going through this and other threads in detail about indigo and other airlines and fear of flying VT aircraft. All we can say is there are issues but not as they are being blown up. It is easy to blame the system and something needs to be done to clean it up. We believe things are happening and something good will hopefully come out of all this. We are a group of indigo FOs and know the insides of it and would like to highlight the problems that have come up.

Rostering is the major issue. It was supposed to be stable but it is anything but stable. With a rude and unresponsive staff and a corrupt guy at its helm there is little hope. We have regular issues with them and no one is able to resolve them. Flight operations expresses helplessness as it does not come under them though us guys who are pilots are supposed to be part of flight operations are controlled by rostering.:=

We are also leaving because of lack of increase in our salary. We were treated as second class citizens by the company and they gave salary increase to captains only as if we are not part of flying crew. So moment 330 came along a number of us are leaving. We were waiting for an opportunity to leave after the treatment that we get at this airline. :{

We are also very concerned about the negative changes that have taken place and how training and standards are being conducted. With the advent of guys from government airlines the debacle of indigo has started. These guys have brought a decadent culture to indigo. Wasnt destroying the government airline enough that they have come to indigo and started destroying it? It wont be long before indigo goes same way as kf which was their first target. The politics and bhaibhatija culture is in along with these guys. At least as long as pk was there standards were maintained. He was strict but fair. The guys who were trainers that time also followed same practices. Now it is all downhill.

This is india and with right contacts you can do anything. He is now been made a trainer after joining as line pilot in indigo!!! What will he teach us – how not to lower wheels when captain demands as we are not on talking terms with him? Then there is another guy in Chennai. Till pk was there, he was only a line check pilot as pk knew his capabilities. He has now been unleashed as TRE. He is such a creep that he was the only guy who was denied extension by icpa when he was leaving the govt airline!!! And now he will teach us how to be a nuisance in cockpit. We have also heard that two stalwarts in kolkatta are being upgraded to TREs. These two guys were useless as check pilots and as long as pk was there they were not even allowed to do training. Now they are being upgraded to TREs!!! Thank God we are leaving and till we leave we will not have to bear them. Whatever happened to the home grown guys of indigo? It is only chamchagiri that works.

Again where are the good guys and good trainers with whom we learnt flying and enjoyed it too. We hardly see them being upgraded. The training and standards are in the pits and going down by the day. No wonder we are having nose wheel landings and other problems. Recently these guys manoeuvered another lady captain and released her on us. We were hardly bearing the two who have been caught when this another one has been unleashed on us. All because she was good to the standards guy. He has now got his cronies children into indigo. For this he got the induction norms changed. Indigo has suddenly started taking type rated FOs but only from a particular category. You should be child of a government airline commander and should have done type rating from cte. The son-in-law of a indigoTRE has also got a back door entry. This guy tried through normal (CAE) route but was rejected. He has now paid money and got type rating at cte and has been taken and ahead of guys who studied hard and got through cae that time when he was rejected. It seems the standards guy has taken a substantial amount of money to get these guys in. IT PAYS TO HAVE CONTACTS AND MONEY. NOTHING ELSE MATTERS. EVERYTHING ELSE CAN BE ARRANGED EVEN IN PRIVATE AIRLINES.:ugh::ugh::ugh:

soullimbo

21st Mar 2011, 09:47

I have had it with India. In my previous life I worked with offshore teams. It simply never worked. Sick and tired of everything that went wrong there. Culture is just saying yes to everything and then don't deliver. Lies lies lies deceit and so on. This confirms yet again the stereotype of Indian business culture. Simply unreliable.

captjns

21st Mar 2011, 13:11

Forget about the wheels falling off the bus... Its way beyond that.

But just a thought... would the adage "The lunatics are running the asylum" apply to India:ugh::hmm::rolleyes:?

Jackingtheflapper

21st Mar 2011, 14:02

Dear flap3reverseidle / Flapper Jack!

Did you fail or something??? You sound extremely frustrated!!!!!!! You are basically the kind of pilots that Airlines do not need. When someone makes major changes, you the corrupt babu's dont get their way anymore so you need to create and spread negativity among the other pilots. I also work with Indigo and i am glad someone is throwing out the trash! Do you have proof that this so called "babu" is taking bribes??? r u sure your not "THEE BABU"???Considering the size of your post it seems like your working less and bitching more. You obviously are having a tough time coping with proper working procedures and want "your guy" to come in so that your life is made easier.

Sorry the industry does not work that way! Its not made for Mr.flap3reverseidle, but for the Airline Fraternity. Either be a good professional or leave. Mr. PK cant help you any longer! So move on, cuz he has!

India Four Two

21st Mar 2011, 15:43

I'm not sure if this has been posted before on PPRuNe, but I think this news item on the BBC from 3 March is very ironic.

The head of India's anti-corruption watchdog has been forced to resign by the Supreme Court on the grounds that he himself faces corruption charges.

BBC News - India anti-corruption chief PJ Thomas forced to resign (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-south-asia-12631887)

flap3reverseidle

22nd Mar 2011, 04:34

flapperjack, touche! touche! touche! we seem to have touched a raw nerve here. Is the truth too painful for you to face?
The whole thing was not about pk or anybody else. We are confident of our training and professionalism and can stand up to anybody as long as they are fair and professional. It does not matter who is promoted or not as long as they have a decent crm and know their stuff. It is the advent of guys with dubious backgrounds who seem to have taken over with no respect for procedures and norms. All kinds of private SOPs are being propogated now by these guys who only believe in politics, groupism, bias and nepotism. they destroyed the government airline first - look at its pathetic state and then they got into kf and look what they did to it. now it seems to be the turn of indigo. for us indigo was our first airline and we got a good professional training that is why the airline looking for 330 pilots has chosen maximum number of us from indigo. indigo just does not appear the same. should someone be not held responsible for directing the two "fake" captains towards this act (as pointed out in another post) and then training them and unleashing them on us. it makes us laugh when someone talks of "fraternity" - The only fraternity known to these guys is of ex govt airline pilots. grow up guys you are no more in the picture and dont carry even one in five domestic passengers.:rolleyes:

Jackingtheflapper

22nd Mar 2011, 07:01

I dont know if you even read what you write, but the 4 paragraph long essay has been written by you. Raw nerves are obvious aren't they? Again.. u are the one with the problem and u r the one not facing the truth. And the truth is that u obviously cannot cope with your seniority. Have you checked the persons in questions credentials and experience before you slay them in a public forum? or your just pointing a wild finger and the first person you stop at is the person who gets it from you? Have you personally seen the bribes and contacts? or are u just unhappy you dont have pull in the airline? You obviously need it. Desperately. The fact that you had to mention Mr. Pk's name 10 times obviously means he was your favorite.. and this new person is not. You are the one professing politics, groupism, bias and nepotism. Just cuz you feel left out? This is not high school. If you have a problem why dont you be a grown up and handle it directly. Dont be a teenager and try to destroy the reputation of an airline ands its professionals, who have spent their whole lives building their reputation. If they started kooochi poooing you will you be singing a different tune.... I think you are just starved for attention and need to keep writing rubbish cuz this is the only way you can create politics, groupism, bias and nepotism.

Stop playing the blame game and man up. Be professional and do your job. Either do it well, dont just sit here and whine... There are no shortcuts to experience. So calm down and let the experienced professionals do their job!

ITman

22nd Mar 2011, 08:40

As Many As 4500 'Pilots' Under Investigation In Delhi Many Could Be Flying Without Proper Credentials

The government in Delhi, India is investigating as many as 4,500 people who may be flying without proper licenses, including as pilot-in-command for the airline IndiGo.
Air travel has become increasingly popular, particularly among India's burgeoning middle class, and airlines have had difficulty hiring enough pilots to keep up with demand. After two pilots were arrested for license fraud recently, India's Civil Aviation Minister Vayalar Ravi has been compelled to open an investigation into credentials held by more than 4,500 people. "I have directed the DGCA (Directorate General of Civil Aviation) to examine all the licences issued in the past and to establish a procedure for more detailed verification while issuing such licences," Mr Ravi told parliament last week.

The Australian reports that the uncredentialed pilots are only the most recent of India's aviation problems. 57 pilots have been caught under the influence of alcohol on duty in the last two years, but only 10 have been fired. In May, an accident in southern India fatally injured 158 people, and the official investigation cited a "sleepy pilot" as the cause of the crash.
FMI: Government of India, Ministry of Civil Aviation (http://civilaviation.nic.in)
[email protected]

captjns

22nd Mar 2011, 11:31

Well it seems that before they day's flight, expat captains need to ask their first officers if their fraudulent flight papers are current:}.

Can you imagine it... no valid pilots in the entire country:D? I love it... just love it.

And these gabronies flying on fake certificates are demanding that expats submit to medical examinations administered by the Indian Air Force.... what a farce:mad:!

Hey... let's make a deal with the Indian Pilots... they get a valid pilots certificates and expats will submit to Indian First Class Medical Exam.

What do you think? Or... the fake Indian Pilots should be satisfied if expat captains obtain forged medical certificates from the Indian Government.

7x7

23rd Mar 2011, 00:12

The situation with pilot licences in India is approaching the classic "if you owe the bank a million dollars and can't repay it, you have a problem - if you owe the bank ten billion dollars and can't repay it, the bank has a problem".

Someone has beaten me to it, but my prediction is that a few spear carriers unfortunate enough not to have family conections will get burned - and the vast majority will, at the stroke of a pen, be declared, magically, to have valid documentation.

Done and dusted, with virtually nothing changed.

av8r76

23rd Mar 2011, 05:37

7x7
That is the most apt description of what aviation in India faces today.
EVERY FTU in India fudges the books. If the DGCA actually combed through the records and took action, aviation in India will come to a grinding halt.

sinnerman

23rd Mar 2011, 07:20

I am a journalist with an English news channel and recently stumbled across two rackets. One of them now defunct where the perpetrators ran off with money from trainee pilots promising them type rating.
Apparently the ex-racketeer now flies with a reputed airline company in India.

Now, if any of you wish to share info on or off-record... please go ahead an PM me. It could help us clean things up a bit.

Or mail me at [email protected]

captjns

23rd Mar 2011, 10:40

OK... here it is...

Expats are being routed out of India via the Indian Medical Inquisition which was perpetrated by SWIP and the Indian Airline Pilot's Union:mad:.

More pilots are being arrested for false airmen certificates. And amongst of those illegals are those hoping for a quick command with the vacancies created by the expats being TMUed by the Indian Air Force Medicos:{.

What that's saying about Karma:oh:?

olepilot

23rd Mar 2011, 12:52

...all pilots coming from India to Vietnam thinking most is working rather well in Vietnam Airlines.

captjns

23rd Mar 2011, 16:20

A bunch of guys interviewing with Flydubai on the 29th and 30th of March. I guess India is either incredible or incredible... I guess it depends on how one views the term incredible.

A380 Jockey

25th Mar 2011, 07:59

Ok,here's a new twist to the story.
And this is the Director of Air Safety's own daughter who was employed by Spicejet....!!
So now you know whether the chicken came first of the egg huh..

SpiceJet gives daughter of DGCA officer the boot - The Times of India (http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/SpiceJet-gives-daughter-of-DGCA-officer-the-boot/articleshow/7784101.cms)

Interesting read....:O

AvMed.IN

28th Mar 2011, 02:56

When the regulators themselves have vested interest, one can't expect objectivity in their functioning, can we? And that surely compromises aviation safety (http://www.avmed.in/2010/12/aviation-safety-is-the-future-bleak/), forget about regulators ability to stay ahead of the times...

Gulfstreamaviator

28th Mar 2011, 03:47

I suspect the problem with forging, is the age of the paper, it must be 1950's paper. and well aged.

but there must be a web site that offers these documents by now.

jetwins

28th Mar 2011, 04:33

Pilots have gone to jail, more will follow. A DGCA official is jail, more will follow.
To make sure there is no repeat of the sordid affair, DGCA must:
1. MUST ENSURE TIME BOUND, SPEEDY disposal of all APPLICATIONs received.
2. Not hide behind shortage of Staff--USE the huge money received from Licence, rating and aircraft endorsement applications.
3. Have a WORKING COMPLAINT REDRESSAL SYSTEM.
4. If a DGCA official asks individuals to produce Cerificates beyond those prescibed and displayed as required on their website- he should be promptly & publicly punished for the same.
5. Define Syllabus for each exam.
6. Prescribe specific Reading Text for each subject.
7. Display sample papers on each subject on the website.
8. Have a defined Question bank, which may be updated every 3 or 6 months, followed by due publicity of the same.
IMPLEMENT THE ABOVE AND SEE CORRUPTION DISAPPEAR

chrislamb

28th Mar 2011, 15:55

"Those who allowed pilots with fake licences should be tried for attempt to murder

Our benighted land of scams is these days witnessing a brand new addition to the ever-growing list – fake pilots. Airline after airline is discovering pilots, flying huge jets with thousands of unsuspecting passengers, without being qualified to do so.

The lid was blown off the scam when one of the largest and fastest growing airlines which recently ordered the largest number of jets from Airbus, realised that its woman pilot touched down on the tarmac a passenger-loaded airplane, on its nose wheel. The aircraft normally lands on its rear set of wheels and then the nose lowers down gently as it rolls on the tarmac. Turns out, the pilot had got the job based on a fake licence, or fake marksheet or both.

It was as if someone had opened the floodgates. Soon, other airlines realised they couldn’t afford to point fingers at anyone, for all of them found themselves afflicted by the same malaise.

The civil aviation ministry and its wing to look after air safety – Directorate General of Civil Aviation (DGCA) – have been quick to denounce the ‘discovery’ and have promised the ‘strictest’ possible action against the erring airlines and pilots. Some may consider this sacking laughable, but to me it is infuriating, more so after we realised how these fake pilots have been playing with the lives of thousands of flyers every day with complete connivance of the very people who are there to ensure that they don’t.

Our TV channel Times Now recently exposed a scary nexus between an aviation academy based in Baramati, Maharashtra, and senior officials of the DGCA. The academy – Carver Flying Institute has backing from top Maharashtra politicians. For the record, Baramati is the constituency of politician and union minister Sharad Pawar while the civil aviation ministry, till very recently, was run by Pawar’s right-hand man, Praful Patel.

The channel expose showed how the academy continued to function despite losing its licence even as the unholy politician-DGCA top brass nexus helped untrained and ineligible pilots clear their exams so that they could ferry unsuspecting passengers. Apparently surprise inspections too were carried out at the academy with the crooked babus at DGCA ensuring the surprise element is maintained by informing the academy about it 20 days in advance.

We have heard that the government is sacking/taking action against those involved that includes the DGCA officials, the pilots and perhaps the airlines as well. This is absolutely unadulterated balderdash. What good does sacking a corrupt babu or pilot achieve in this case? ZILCH! These people have toyed with the lives of thousands. This is nothing short of an attempt to murder and they need to be booked under laws that are appropriate under the circumstances, no less.

So far we have been witnessing financial frauds being perpetuated on us. They are bad, no doubt, but they don’t endanger human lives the way this pathetic and scary nexus of corrupt babus, politicians and big airlines does.

And in my view, the fake pilots would be the lowest in terms of culpability. They are desperate for jobs and in a nation where everything is available for a price, they simply want a shortcut without either being qualified or being incapable of performing the job. The real culprits are the babus and the politicians who not just allowed, but actively participated in perpetuating this attempt at mass murder. They are worse than the criminals who roam the streets.

The Indian apex court is currently in an activist mode. I would somehow wish it took cognizance of these incidents too. Not just me, but anyone would agree that the government that is itself responsible for this fraud on its people cannot be trusted with stemming this rot.

And while I am at it, let me extol all of you who feel for the nation to join Anna Hazare on April 5 as he starts an indefinite fast for demanding a people’s anti-corruption law. "

Gulfstreamaviator

28th Mar 2011, 16:02

WOW what to say, someone has certainly stuck his neck out.

Well done.

Fubaliera

28th Mar 2011, 16:09

Qatar
Ehtihad
Gulf Air
Air Arabia
Emirates
All should have thier Indians investigated

highcirrus

28th Mar 2011, 17:05

chrislamb

Yep, all correct.

Also look at the motivation, as hinted here (http://www.tehelka.com/story_main49.asp?filename=Ne190311EXCLUSIVE.asp). Reporter Samiran Saha alludes to former Aviation Minister Prafu Patel's "inexplicable" decisions to over-order aircraft and to give away Air India legacy, profitable routes.

Saha didn't actually state the blindingly obvious and well known (in country) allegations that Patel front-end loaded the contract price of ordered aircraft with the connivance of the manufacturers (the more aircraft ordered the more commission paid), to vastly enrich himself and to fund the political party he owes allegiance to, but also fortuitously, coincidentally and miraculously came into significant FOC equity stakes in the independent airlines that sprang up post relaxed regulation in 1995 (cost of operating/route licences).

To make the subsequent dynamic airline economic activity possible, more warm bodies were required to fly independent airline routes that he now had a conflict of interest stake in. How to do it? Use traditional methods and expedite the flow of "trained" fodder.

What's happened to Patel? What do you think? Promoted, of course. Does life ever change?

avionimc

28th Mar 2011, 18:38

Interesting is the fact that from all the copilots who flew with me, not one ever had an interview with the company. Let alone a technical interview.

They all landed straight-in the copilot seat only because of their father’s relation with the company.

One of them did not even know how to buckle his seat belt (Dad was his DGCA instructor/examiner); another one had a CPL ME/IR but never took or passed any ME or IR check-ride, not even an instrument written test. Not to mention another one who continually called his buddies during duty time (presumably to brag about the fact he was on the flight line and, flying!) and even repeatedly texted sms during flight.

Company is not worried: they are “fresh”, and they will learn was I told.

All con artists, or are they? Not smart enough, “Dad” is!

Ah, just read in the news about the daughter of the DGCA Air Safety director. Congrats, indeed.

Incredible India!

DesiPilot

28th Mar 2011, 20:42

Avionimc,

May I ask what did you do when that first officer was talking on the phone or sending texts when flying? Were you not the PIC and had the authority to tell him to put his phone away? Who did you blame for the FO who couldn't buckle his seat belt? I'd say that his SFI/TRI is equally to be blamed; I remember the first time I used the five point harness, I didn't know how to use it but my instructor was more than happy to show me how to use it.

Don't take me wrong, I've had my share of green first officers in India, some of them did think that they were God's gift to aviation. I wasn't a check pilot or TRI but I would mentor them, ask questions and when a daughter of DGCA officer couldn't tell me memory item I told her that I'd call her dad and let him know. You bet next time I flew with her she knew all of the memory items.

There is a difference between fake pilots and inexperienced first officers. It is part of our job as captains to mentor the next generation, like we were taught by our peers.

I say it is a good start that at least DGCA is taking some action against pilots who used forged documents. It will definitely scare the hell out of everyone and they wont forge the documents for sure. I am glad that DGCA is checking all the license issued till date; I bet there are a lot of scared pilots in India.

captjns

28th Mar 2011, 23:58

Ultimately some fakes and corrupt DGCA officials will be brought to justice But at the end of the day what for. Like all other scams in India, this too will disappear and there will still remain a plethora of fake pilots and corrupt members in the DGCA and the Indian Government that will remain unpunished.

The rest of the free world needs to send India the same message sent to other countries banned from their airspace.

A poster in another thread feels that pilots who bribed the DGCA should be compensated for personal damages:eek:.

ICAO, and every aviation agency round the world need to take immediate action against the DGCA, and all Indian Airlines operating within their airspace. Some may say that these measures are extreme. Remember do to safety violations, many airlines from Africa and Indonesia have banned from the EU and the US. India needs to be added to this list until responsibility on their behalf has been demonstrated.

Ufortunately, Safety Assessment of Foreign Aircraft Ramp Inspections (SAFA) merely serve as a process to see if the fraudulent documents in the possession of these illegals are current. Given the state of the DGCA’s ineptitude as well as record keeping procedures, I can’t see the DGCA being motivated as a cooperating entity with other aviation agencies.

Anyone ever been to the offices of the DGCA in Delhi? Words cannot describe the state of the offices of the DGCA. It’s one of those sights that one need to witness for themselves. Shear filth and disgrace.

Call me a cynic, but this is what I foresee... IMO the DGCA will discover more fraudulent certificates than they were banking on. We can all agree the DGCA and the Indian Government want this embarrassment to disappear. With that being said, I’ll wager a month’s pay that the DGCA will take their pens, (ala a magic wands) and by the miracle of the Indian Sky Gods, make those fraudulent certificates into legitimate ones.

A team of aviation inspectors comprised from other nations should be created at the insistence of ICAO and other nations. This team needs to audit ATPL pilot certificates of those airmen operating beyond the borders of India. As corruption and incompetence is so perverse, oversight of the Indian DGCA is essential.

Immediate action must be taken to ensure the safety of the innocents both onboard VT registered aircraft and on the ground.

The cost should be borne by the Indian Government, or DGCA or both.

AvMed.IN

29th Mar 2011, 07:42

DGCA yet to IMPROVE iTS FUNCTIONING
Unfortunately all this is happening in the centenary year of Indian aviation (http://www.avmed.in/2011/02/1911-in-aviation-history-–-india-and-the-world/). Even if all the noises made at the DGCA and by the Minister can help them set the house in order, would it be all be worth celebrating (which incidentally is officially being celebrated by the Ministry of Civil Aviation).

johnnyringo42

30th Mar 2011, 13:08

When I was in Flight School in New York many guys from India were there and they all logged many fake hours in their logbooks. I sat and watched in awe as they did this, I think many of them are now Captains in India as this was about 20 years ago.

avionimc

30th Mar 2011, 19:33

Desi: of course, and there is more to the story, these CPL had been flying for months.

Still, a twenty something commercial pilot should be mature enough [to know] not to text sms in flight from the flight deck while on flight duty. Same with the guy unable to buckle his seat belt (even a six year old kid would find out in a few minutes). Similarly, in the incident of VT-AXJ: the copilot did not wear his shoulder harness, for some reason he decided to adjust his seat but did not know how, caused the AP to disconnect, was unable re-engage the AP, caused the aircraft to dive and was unable to recover. He then caused the aircraft to dive even further and then, as if it was not enough, he opposed forces to the captain who was desperately trying to recover.My point is that these kind of CPL, would be pilots, should not be allowed anywhere near a real aircraft.

There are many young copilots, not yet experienced but with minimum aptitudes, with genuine desire to fly and to learn. Everyone learns on any flight. It is a pleasure to fly and work with them. Unfortunately they are the exception rather than the norm here. Probably because they do not have the required connections to land strait in the RH seat.

captjns

5th Apr 2011, 10:01

Well happy days... the CIB nabs one or two DGCA officials and a couple of more fake pilots. Geez. even a microsoft pilot has more credibility than these fakes.

Well anyway since the case has been cracked wide open:} by the best that the Indian CIB has to offer:yuk: case closed:hmm:?

Well now off for another scandel... the Indian Telecom system.

You gotta love it:ugh:.

doubleu-anker

6th Apr 2011, 05:49

I say, the CBI had better start easing up, or there will be no one left, at the DGCA, as they will all be in jail! In fact, that may not be such a bad thing!! :}

masalama

8th Apr 2011, 05:35

Any takers from within ?????:E I think this is definitely worrying some people at the top....Indigo has hired quite a lot in the last few years considering their meteoric expansion....they are worried maybe????IndiGo asks its pilots to come clean on forged documents - The Economic Times (http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/news-by-industry/transportation/airlines-/-aviation/indigo-asks-its-pilots-to-come-clean-on-forged-documents/articleshow/7908368.cms)

captjns

8th Apr 2011, 13:35

Hey... lets not stop there!!! What about the AMEs conducting medicals on pilots:ooh:... Are they fakes or legit!?!?

Makes one ponder doesn't it:hmm:...

Piltdown Man

8th Apr 2011, 15:13

Is commercial aviation going to stop in India? No. Are there enough properly qualified pilots in India? Probably not. Are there "fake pilots" in the system who can do the job? Probably yes. Are there pilots who need dismissing? Definitely yes. But maybe all is not lost...

The DGCA have to come up with some sort of plan to identify the people who can actually fly and dispose of those who can not. Failure to do so may place some operators in a position whereby they can't afford insurance which will the mean their leases are in default. Worse than that, the ghoulish spectre of smoking holes (Indian rail crash style) may raise its ugly head (again). Corruption, nepotism and poor standards are eating the heart out of Indian aviation and the DGCA should start fixing the problem PDQ. So, how about using the sim as a chopping tool (am I really saying this?) ? I don't mean pressing the buttons until the thing crashes, but do some real simple N-1 stuff with appropriate Technical, Legal and Flight Safety questions beforehand. The session could be part of the recurrent checks. Then those that get through could be given a real ATPL revalidation (ie. they have demonstrated competence) and those that fail are chopped. Furthermore, make it so that those who get chopped get an automatic jail sentence if they are later proved to have submitted forged paperwork. Video each session with multiple recorders and once the recording are de-identfied, release them on the internet, then announce the results to the candidates. This way it can be demonstrated very publicly that the system is being cleaned up, that the sub-standard are being removed and only those who are competent (even if only to low standard) are allowed to fly. Yes, the bludgers who cheated and bought their way in may still end up with a job, but at least they will have proved that they can fly.

captjns

8th Apr 2011, 15:22

The problem with corruption within India is so endemic, not only within the aviation sector, but all areas that are regulated by the government. There is no other way of putting it but India is out of control. Those taking bribes are the only ones who have their fingers on the pulse.

With that being said, self policing is just not an option. The public deserves more reliable assurances. Oversight committees from other agencies such as EASA or FAA need to be created and approved by ICAO.

stuckgear

8th Apr 2011, 15:36

So, how about using the sim as a chopping tool (am I really saying this?) ? I don't mean pressing the buttons until the thing crashes, but do some real simple N-1 stuff with appropriate Technical, Legal and Flight Safety questions beforehand. The session could be part of the recurrent checks. Then those that get through could be given a real ATPL revalidation

The thing is PM, the corruption and nepotism remains, so as long as the familiy connections are in place, or a suitable 'contribution' is made to the tester, all boxes ticked satisfactory and off it goes again.

ICAO should have stepped in a long time ago and limited Indian registered aircraft on international operations until the DGCA gets the enema it needs.

White Knight

8th Apr 2011, 18:55

Got to agree with TopTup - NEVER fly on an Indian registered aeroplane:ugh: You ARE risking your life:rolleyes:

Forget the PC nonsense, this is reality:ugh::ugh::ugh: And as for operating in and out of the Indian airports? Well, it's frustrating at best and dodgy at worst...

captjns

9th Apr 2011, 01:20

White Knight... I would have no problem flying a VT reggy aircraft provided I am PIC. I know my airman and medical certificates are both legit and valid as FAA records will demonstrate back to 1972.

Most of the F/Os are pretty decent spot on lasses and lads and spot on their game too.

I do try to avoid the Bollywood types who don the Raybans after dusk and need a crane to lift the arm their watches are adorned on their wrists.

As with the Bollywood types, a landing is not a landing unless it is a CFIT onto the runway:ouch: along with rhythmic swaying from one side to the other side of the runway:yuk: and massive amounts of breaking and deafening trust reverse that passengers get concussions because of mass trauma to the head as they hit the seat backs in front of them.

nafod

9th Apr 2011, 03:37

Top,

Your post has taken a real load off my shoulders.
For months I have carried around with me exactly what we see in Indian aviation....be it scheduled or un-scheduled. I could not have said it better.

At times I wanted to vent by posting here. As you can see, I am a "newbie" but have lurked here for years.

Every time I hear about "another fake license", I just smile to myself.
If the reporting of such would be done by anyone who understood what it takes to get to the "left seat".....they would have far more to write about.

Not many months ago.....I was holding short for a night departure at a southern Indian airport.

A "bus" had been cleared into position to wait.......just ahead of us.
In her 90 degree turn to the line-up she made an announcement to the tower.

We talked about her comments for days.

It seems that in her turn from the taxi-way onto the runway she had scanned past another runway which was 30 degrees off her assigned/active runway.

She demanded that the tower turn off those lights......that she was "confused". I say no more.

I am TRI/E here in India. Been here for 3 years. No agency....I really did not want to come.

The bottom line is training......from the ground up.
Tailwheel experience to learn what rudder pedals are for.

I would bet that you, like me, were able to rent a 172, take three buddies and go scare yourselves ****less. 18 year old CFI's are not bulletproof.

It is the lack of an infrastructure which would allow Indian pilots to gain experience rather than pretend they had it. (....then lie about it, pay for it)

I used to call my IFR students when the weather was low. We would go shoot approaches without any view-limiting devices.
We did good just to see a runway at minimums!

Can you imagine explaining to ATC that you are going to shoot multiple approaches to minimums for experience and fun?
Hell, I find it painful to jump through all the hoops we must just to fly away for a couple weeks.

Just seems to me.....an American pilot with many "there I was...." stories, that the DGCA is the problem....plain and simple.

Give the Indians a break. They are smart....resourceful.
With proper training and a system which is more in line with the "outside" world.....Indian aviation will proliferate with safe Indian pilots.

The pilots here must learn that 300 hours total means very little, unfortunately. Get out the flame thrower.

Age-old "catch 22"......how can they get the experience? Impossible as things are now.

No film processing runs....to overnight parcel....no bank checks flown to a reserve.....no on-demand medevac....no freight dogs.....all the ways we got our OJT. (single pilot/single engine IFR...looking back that sounds scary!)

There seems to be no other place than a scheduled airline here to learn how to fly. There is more to being a pilot than flipping switches.
With auto pilot and auto throttle......God help them. These are crutches and make the real airman qualities further out of reach.

We are talking about two different kinds of airman.
Anyone who gets signed off as P-1......later found to be damaging the hardware due to technique......nevermind.

You have said it all. I thank you. (my opinions are mine. I like yours too.)

doubleu-anker

9th Apr 2011, 04:01

nafod

"There seems to be no other place than a scheduled airline here to learn how to fly."

This is the big problem and not only in India. Europe springs to mind. What they are doing in Europe is to re prioritize, flying skills. I know a management pilot for a flag carrier in Europe. He told me flying skills are well down on the list of their priorities. Scary? Well it is ok until there is an abnormality, automatics play up, for e.g. Maybe I am old fashioned.

Thank God for automatics and I pray they keep working, as we are becoming very reliant on them and so are the pax, to keep them alive.

captjns

13th Apr 2011, 03:06

Hello McFly!!! Remind you of another country which shall remain unamed?!?:ugh::ugh::ugh:

US FAA assigned Barbados a Category 2 safety rating, which means that Barbados does not comply with international safety standards set by ICAO, based on an assessment by Barbados’ civil aviation authority. As a result, Barbados’ air carriers, which do not currently serve the US, cannot establish US service.

An International Aviation Safety Assessment Category 2 rating means a country either lacks laws or regulations necessary to oversee air carriers in accordance with minimum international standards, or that its civil aviation authority is deficient in one or more areas, such as technical expertise, trained personnel, record keeping or inspection procedures, FAA stated.

Someone help me out here... I just don't get it

stuckgear

13th Apr 2011, 07:21

nafod,

great post. :D

Can-type

23rd Apr 2011, 13:27

I have heard of an individual who is 22-23 years old in indigo and was awaiting command, something that was really surprising... Either he has got to be BRILLIANT or else its just the output of a flawed policy by the airline...

Full Service Carriers in India have set the limit for a co-pilot to undergo command training not before 25 years of age.

PT6A

23rd Apr 2011, 14:16

Can, setting an age of 25 does not do anything......

The whole system is buggered in India... Just copy the JAR rules and ENFORCE them.. Problem solved!

Oh and the expats will be around for a LONG time.

PT6A

Tee Emm

23rd Apr 2011, 14:18

There is a difference between fake pilots and inexperienced first officers. It is part of our job as captains to mentor the next generation, like we were taught by our peers

From the fare paying passengers point of view, the frightening part about all these stories of low hour brand new first officers are they are legally Second in Command of a large jet transport aeroplane. If the captain becomes incapacitated (bird strike on the windscreen, food poisoning, medical problem etc then this apprentice pilot second in command is all alone. The chances then of a tragic ending is increased simply because the evidence is there for all to see that these pilots are out of their depth even with a captain with them. Without a captain they are dead meat and so are the passengers. .

PT6A

23rd Apr 2011, 14:40

Tee, it comes back to training and the standards (of which Indian Airlines have none) cadet pilots work fantastic in BA, LH etc...

Real airlines, with real aviation authorites keeping things in check.... Don't confuse cadet pilots with the mess that the Indian system churns out under the same name....

Would a BA or LH cadet be ok if the Captain snuffed it? YES, would I put my family on an aircraft with a BA or LH cadet? YES.

PT6A

captjns

24th Apr 2011, 02:32

Tee... the system does work in Europe... in India... and in South East Asia too. EZjet and Ryanair in Europe and a number of Chinese carriers come to mind with lads and lasses accumulating 300 hours from pilot puppy mills round the world before commencing their frozen ATPL training.

During line training, the new pups are trained to use special procedures if the captain becomes incapacitated during flight. Autoland is used to get the jet on the ground. They are trained to divert to an airport that has a precision approach in the event the intended destination does not have one.

Now as the fake pilot issue in India, I would not be dissapointed to see India placed on the Category II watch list by other nations in the same manner as Barbardos was recently.

akerosid

24th Apr 2011, 02:57

Times of India reports another case, a relative of a senior DGCA official:

'Special' exam gave DGCA honcho's daughter licence - The Times of India (http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Special-exam-gave-DGCA-honchos-daughter-licence/articleshow/8068699.cms)

stuckgear

24th Apr 2011, 08:37

from akerosid's link:

TOI scoured through the results of ten pilot licence exam regular sessions held between April 2006 and October 2008 and found that Rashmi, who appeared for five regular sessions, consistently failed in Air Navigation, Aircraft Technical and Aviation Meteorology.

The highest marks she ever scored in her regular exam attempts in Air Navigation was 58/100 (to pass, 70% is needed), in January 2007. This, despite it being one of the easiest Air Navigation papers ever to be set, with the highest score being 94/100. To clear the five CPL ground subjects, Rashmi had 17 regular attempts over a period of two years and cleared only two papers. The minimum marks to clear CPL subjects is 70/100. DGCA records show that Rashmi cleared these three subjects in special exams, in which, the pass percentages improve dramatically.

According to the DGCA's special exam policy, a candidate can appear for special exams in only one subject. During Rashmi's time, in 2007-08, two subjects were allowed. Also, there were numerous conditions. A special exam could be given only if the candidate could not afford to wait for the once-in-three-months regular exams.

That means Rashmi could not have appeared for three special exams without giving a fraudulent undertaking.

ICAO really needs to get off its collective backside.

captjns

24th Apr 2011, 10:16

So we know that Dad and Daughter are the perps in the latest scandel. What action will be taken against both of them?

Will Indigo sack the lass? Probably not:ugh:. Will the old man do time? probably not:ugh:. The rug that scandels are swept under must be pretty damn big:}!

Will civil aviation authorities outside India take note or action? Probably not:ugh:.

The wonderful world of politics.

blurrrsotong

24th Apr 2011, 16:19

Fake pilots: DGCA fast-tracks verification : North: India Today (http://indiatoday.intoday.in/site/story/fake-pilots-scam-dgca-fast-tracks-verification-of-pilots/1/133670.html)

... says it all, especially the last paragraph:

"Deputy director-general A.K. Sharan's daughter was on the rolls of IndiGo Airlines. Director (air transport) Lalit Gupta's daughter was handling revenue management for IndiGo. Chief flight operations inspector Capt. H.Y. Samant's daughter also worked for a private carrier. Director (air safety) R.S. Passi's daughter, Garima Passi, was flying for SpiceJet. Garima was caught recently for obtaining her licence through fraudlent means."

DGCA = "Director General of Corruption in Aviation",
...thanks to the eminent people - corrupt to the core - named in the above article.

learner001

24th Apr 2011, 18:07

Without going deeply into pedagogy and didactic matters, I will attempt to keep this very black and white and simple. So please do not coment with 'open door' replies like: as a pilot you must be able to 'act under pressure', because this is not the issue and it has nothing to do with it.

A 'special exam' sort of program as such is not a bad thing at all, if it is utilised in a proper way by proper people.

For example: You will always have some candidates that very well 'know their stuff', but that same candidate would 'collapse' under the pressure of an exam. Every next exam this pressure would even get higher.

It is the task of an examiner to set an atmosphere in which a candidate feels at ease. Although this may be a very difficult task, it is as simple as that.

In regular exam exercises this may not always be possible and candidates may feel like 'sheep being led into the slaughterhouse' despite their perfect knowledge on the various subjects...

Again: 'Black and white' and simple... Not necessarily to do with corruption...

That this scheme or program is 'corruption sensitive' like any other scheme principally has nothing to do with this and other ‘stories’...

Kind regards, learner... ;)

stuckgear

24th Apr 2011, 18:51

learner001,

I just started to type a presented rebuttal to your position, but then it's realistically superfluous to do so when it can be summed up in one word.

Rubbish.

lomapaseo

24th Apr 2011, 19:13

Again: 'Black and white' and simple... Nothing to do with corruption

I tried a babble speak program on this quote and it came out

smoke and mirrors.

OK so it's not corrupt just sucess if you can afford it.

Big Pistons Forever

24th Apr 2011, 19:44

A 'special exam' sort of program as such is not a bad thing at all, if it is utilised in a proper way by proper people.

For example: You will always have some candidates that very well 'know their stuff', but that same candidate would 'collapse' under the pressure of an exam. Every next exam this pressure would even get higher.

It is the task of an examiner to set an atmosphere in which a candidate feels at ease. Although this may be a very difficult task, it is as simple as that.

In regular exam exercises this may not always be possible and candidates may feel like 'sheep being led into the slaughterhouse' despite their perfect knowledge on the various subjects...

Fortunately the aircraft will know that the pilot doesn't handle pressure well so it will make sure not to have any malfunctions/emergencies when those poor souls who can't handle the stress are driving :rolleyes:

stuckgear

24th Apr 2011, 20:16

Fortunately the aircraft will know that the pilot doesn't handle pressure well so it will make sure not to have any malfunctions/emergencies when those poor souls who can't handle the stress are driving :rolleyes:

you never know, maybe it will allow 17 attempts 'till the pilot finally gets it right enough, but only in a situation that is.. well favourable to the pilot. :hmm:

Leao

25th Apr 2011, 00:18

How is it possible? My dream is to fly on one of biggest airline company in the world, but not this way ... I can´t belive this post could hepn

Teevee

25th Apr 2011, 10:55

learner001 I'm not a pilot but I have the same pedagogic etc. etc. understanding of SOME exams that you have ... unfortunately even I can see that in this particular 'exam' how you cope with pressure is one of the main questions, - with a very significant 'weighting'!! As SLF I don't want pilots who can 'pass' exams because they have so little pressure they almost feel as though they have nothing to lose so can stay relaxed... but have mental blocks and 'freeze' as soon as the reality hits them that there are a hundred souls or more behind them all depending on them for their survival.

learner001

26th Apr 2011, 16:31

Of course I know about the situation in India.

And yes: Of course a pilot should be able to perform under pressure.

But all that does not justify:

a. To condemn a candidate, if a specific well designed system or a program has been properly applied.

or

b. To condemn a well designed system or a program as such, for reason, that that system or program may have been misused.

May be I have put it up the extreme and too simplistic here (‘black and white’ and simple... Not necessarily to do with corruption), just to give it some initial relatively easy thoughts of consideration. However, I did put down some of very relevant and important factors:

“if it is utilised in a proper way, by proper people...”

@TeeVee

Although to some extent and to a specific stage up into the learning process, it may even be utilised in practical exams as well, I was referring in my post to preliminary theoretical mass exams in a rigid, class like non dynamic environment. As is the case here.

@lomapaseo

May be I had better written:

Again: 'Black and white' and simple... Not necessarily to do with corruption...

Kind regards, learner... ;)

DesiPilot

27th Apr 2011, 10:52

Daughter of DGCA No. 2 got licence from school with no plane - The Times of India (http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Daughter-of-DGCA-No-2-got-licence-from-school-with-no-plane/articleshow/8094783.cms)

zeroth

27th Apr 2011, 12:00

Licence is one issue in India! The more pressing problem is that there are a small but significant number of commercial pilots who operate in India, legally licensed or not, who quite simply are not pilots – they cannot fly. There are First Officers and Captains who are sitting in the front of multi million pound jets and operate with their fingers crossed and a fly by number approach to the job – they have no skill. In reality there is no minimum acceptable standard in India. Some so called pilots have reached their position in an airline through contacts or by bribing people in one way or another. The senior people who ‘arranged’ the job cannot afford the incompetent pilot to be found out for obvious reasons. Not just Indian nationals but expat pilots/managers of dubious background hired through agencies that may offer payments to those airline executives using their agency service
If an honest TRE/TRI/Check Pilot brings the abysmal performance of some of these so called pilots to the attention of the senior managers, then this TRE/TRI/Check Pilot may not be rostered with the individual again. (They may not be rostered with anyone again?) The so called pilot may well do a few flights with the senior manager, who could well have arranged the job in the first place or be under immense pressure from ‘above’, and so called pilot is likely to appear on line a few weeks later.
TRE’s in India continually report having to take control on landing, below 100ft, during initial line training because some 200 hour trainee pilots are allowed in the RHS of passenger jets with insufficient training and/or lack of basic competence. It seems to be accepted in India that ‘basic’ flying training is often required during initial line training on jet transport aircraft, with passengers on board. It is often difficult to believe that these so called pilots have completed the required hours or tests for a CPL, let alone passed a type rating. The coming monsoon season will see many airlines in India operating flights with inexperienced Captains and low hour First officers. They may well be the very best, and mostly at least one pilot will be fully competent; but unfortunately the chances of having incompetent pilots paired together on the flight deck are increasing exponentially as some companies look to upgrade to Captain with minimum hours (1,500 total), continue to hire via dubious means whilst also often treating checking, including initial base training, as just another tick in box to be done and signed off at the behest of a powerful superior or as a returned favour. India is where inexperienced junior first officers often refer to themselves as ‘Captain’ and some of those promoted to Captain, with around 2,000hrs, are in reality no more than a F/O with a LHS check: This does not affect the arrogance of a few who are happy to remain unconcerned as to how little they know or how very limited their skills are.
With so many pilots out of work in India surely it is time to hire based on competence rather than connections or the ability to work the system. Competence means having the skills to fly an aircraft, not just pass technical examinations that mostly have little relevance. This is not exclusively an Indian problem, but in India the effects of a corrupt system will be the greatest: Although the Middle East will run a close second as those Indian pilots (and others) with dubious qualifications/skills try their hardest to get a position overseas where they hope that they will not be found out. My commiserations to the majority of Indian professional pilots who have to endure the continual assault on their integrity due to a number of their colleagues, managers and regulators who are corrupt, unlicensed or incompetent and possibly all three.
Finally, I doubt if Indigo are the worst offenders so maybe a new thread is required?

Superpilot

27th Apr 2011, 14:01

Does it hurt to insert a couple of blank lines into such a long post?

jackbauer

27th Apr 2011, 14:04

Average attention span of a Pprune reader is ONE paragraph. After that it's ZZZzzz

AerialNinja

28th Apr 2011, 04:49

DGCA is amazingly corrupt

TopTup

29th Apr 2011, 11:15

Zeroth: an excellent summary. Accurate, succinct & non biassed to the many professional pilots in India suffering at the hands of widespread utter corruption (criminal) negligence in standards, training & recruitment - both local & expat alike.

I would like to hear from the AI pilots. Was your line check or sim training form completed before even entering the cockpit or sim? How many patterns (eg NDB/VOR/VNAV,etc, etc approachs were ticked as being completed yet were never performed? The same for non-normals? How can (local) TRI's gain creditation yet unable to fly a raw data approach with a 15 KT x-wind in VMC?

Corrupt, corrupt, corrupt to the core. And yet what is more disgusting is those bearing witness to such practices will rant that it isn't true & that such facts are embellished. Do a review of replies by locals, or even operating procedures at AI and you'll find utter xenophobia. (Eg at AI an expat TRE/I will be made cruise relief to a local Capt of perhaps up to 20 years less experience, or expat FO of > 10,000 hrs put as cruise relief to local kid with 175-220 hrs TT).

Side note: I spoke up against pilots with 175-220 hrs going straight to widebody RHS. I was told they will not be permitted to t/o or land, ie "given flying" for their first 2 years (I think was the number?) & incapacitation drills including autoland is drilled into them. So a) they are not kept current on t/o's & landings, and b) I told them as such a crew consisting of such a very junior FO cannot be permitted to operate into BOM or when BOM is an alternate due a 3.3 deg glideslope prohibiting autoland. Answer? "It's none of your business!"

As written many times: I witnessed first hand such practices. I resigned over it. The DGCA, FAA, ICAO, Boeing & the media all know about it & also have blood on their hands.

For reasons well put by Zeroth, the liklihood of a crew composed of corruptly obtained licenses, (criminally) negligent training & standards, or despicable standards of CRM is overwhelming (goes for FA's as well). The odds are against you, the passenger, of a favorable outcome as opposed to carriers not subject to these same overwhelming, protected & inherent practices. You will NEVER see me or my own on a VT registered aircraft.

Fly on a VT reg at your own risk & peril. Good luck, you'll need it because you're not safe.

dnomyer

19th May 2011, 23:23

so many indians want to take shortcuts to get a job, but something they dont know is , if they do like this for a long time more, more life they will play with. and to be a pilot, u need to be confident, not confident to get the papers so u can land a job quickly.

i saw many indians pilot students in philippines who paid everything they could, cfi, more hours. and stuff like that. but i would never ride a airplane in india with those pilots! arabs who study in cheap ass schools in asia, indians, egyptians, they are all the same. sucky sucky pilots

caulfield

20th May 2011, 13:50

There are problems,some serious, in Indian aviation but it should be kept in perspective(ie nobodys perfect).The 2 biggest problems are:
i)Corruption in DGCA-but corruption is a way oflife in India so what do you do?
ii)Expansion leading to crew shortage leading to rushed and curtailed training.

They should take the emphasis offthe SOP's and get the new FO's up to speed on basics of flying.ie Takeoff and LANDING!When theyre signed off they should be able to land the plane all by their lonesome.Replace the NO TL list with a star system whereby inexperienced Captains are not rostered with inexperienced FO's.But FO's must do 50% flying except monsoon.Mandate hand flying and raw data.Lot of ATR's in India.Encourage airlines to send new cadets to the ATR for 1 year first.

A pilot that is not automation-dependent should be the goal at the end of the first year and then he/she would be ready to transition to jets.Right now theapproach is to make them fly by rote and SOP alone and just monitor automatics..The basics are missing and they should be tackled FIRST!If not,the next crash around the corner will be one following Captain incapacitation.

Boeing7xx

22nd May 2011, 04:43

Sir... This is about IndiGo here. Why drag AI into this? ... I have great respect for you & Capt. C.S., please don't drop from the pedestal the junior captains you coached kept you on. Its been over 18months since you left AI, and I can't say things have changed for the better, however, they have changed. All I can say is that the ship is changing course to the right direction. But being such a monolith, changes cannot be achieved overnight. Also, you recall what happened to Capt. C.S.'s letter which was brought up in the Monday meeting. How can you still say that no action is taken. People may ignore things, but are not blind.

taildrag

23rd May 2011, 19:51

In Indian English usage, a "reputed" airline is a "reputable" airline.

In British and American usage, in view of the alleged widespread falsification of pilot credentials, it appears many of the Indian airlines indeed may actually be "reputed" airlines!:ouch:

Lone_Ranger

24th May 2011, 07:34

Lets face it, India is not going to become less corrupt, they dont even see deception as wrong, indications are ... its actually happening the other way around....the rest of the world is slowly catching up with Indian levels of personal deciept

VijayMallya

5th Oct 2013, 04:29

People from 9W already know of it. Divorces can be bitter but this one wins the prize in my book

________________________________________________________
Jet pilot outsources tests, faces criminal action - The Times of India (http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Jet-pilot-outsources-tests-faces-criminal-action/articleshow/23547923.cms)

MUMBAI: The country's aviation regulator has ordered criminal action against a Jet Airways (http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/jet-airways-india-ltd/stocks/companyid-4374.cms) commander after he was held guilty of hiring an impersonator to pass the crucial exams that earned him his command licence.

Delhi-based Captain Rajesh Sehgal (http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/topic/Captain-Rajesh-Sehgal) had consistently failed the examinations conducted by the directorate general of civil aviation (DGCA) for several years. But then, in October 2010, he cleared all the three subjects in one attempt. He subsequently fulfilled other requirements (see box inside) and started flying as a commander in 2012.

Recently, however, the DGCA (http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/topic/DGCA) received a complaint alleging that Sehgal had employed fraudulent methods to pass the tests. The regulator instituted a probe into the first ever case of "outsourcing" and discovered that the signatures in the October 2010 examinations differed from Sehgal's standard signature. It issued him a show-cause notice this August, but received no reply.

A fortnight ago, the DGCA declared his exam results "invalid" and barred him from retaking them for three years. "The director-general of civil aviation, Arun Mishra, has ordered necessary criminal action against the Jet pilot. The aviation regulator will suspend or cancel his pilot licence," said a source. He is grounded since September 24.

'I have been framed'

In his defence, Sehgal told TOI on Friday that he was framed by somebody out of personal enmity. Rubbishing the use of an impersonator, he said he cleared the exams in one go because "he spent three months studying"; he attributed the previous failures to his busy flying schedule. "I cleared the 10-mark oral exam too. How could I have used an impersonator there?"

Sehgal has filed a petition with the DGCA and the ministry of civil aviation. "The show-cause notice was not sent to my current address. Neither was a copy sent to the airline. I didn't know of it," he said.

Mishra was unavailable for comment. Jet Airways did not respond to a questionnaire sent on Saturday.

Sehgal, who held a commercial pilot licence (CPL) and had some flying experience, joined Jet Airways as a co-pilot in 1999. At some point, he began making attempts to obtain an airline transport pilot licence (ATPL), the licence required to become a commander.

DGCA's ATPL exam records from 2006 show he consistently scored low in the three subjects—air navigation; aviation meteorology; and radio aids, instruments. From 2006 to January 2010, he gave five attempts per subject and failed in each. Thrice (http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/topic/Thrice-%28musician%29), he scored 29 out of 90 in the air navigation written exam; he did not give the oral test carrying 10 marks. To pass, he needed at least 70 out 100.

"Many pilots take the exams lightly since there is no limit on attempts. A majority of them fail, but scoring 29 out of 90 consistently is uncommon," maintained an airline pilot.

In the October 2010 exams, Sehgal's scores were very different. He got 75 out of 100 in air navigation, 86 out of 100 in radio instruments and 72 out of 100 in aviation meteorology. After this, he completed Jet's ground training for commanders and their relevant simulator checks before beginning to operate flights as a commander.

Sehgal's 2010 attempt caught attention of the DGCA "after it received a complaint, which alleged that he had employed an impersonator in the exams. That was when the probe was set up," said a source.

The DGCA investigation could not explain how the impersonator, if used, was not caught by the exam invigilator. Every candidate has to carry to the exam centre a government-issued photo identity card (such as an airport entry pass, CPL or passport) and the invigilator is required to cross-check the details on the ID with the candidate's hall ticket and the DGCA candidate list.