Airmen shot Frankfurt March 2nd

[chopper2004]

RIP to the one that died and speedy recovery to the other 2 x airmen injured in this

UPDATE: USAFE Airmen killed in shooting were from Ramstein, Lakenheath (http://www.usafe.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123245001)

Though I thought since R-M closed and handed over back to the locals that all passenger flights were divided between Spang and Ramstein?

All the best

[Cows getting bigger]

Rhein Main, hmmmmm. I have a logbook entry for 8/8/85 which has 'car bomb' in the remarks column.

[BEagle]

The assailant, Arid Uka, a 20 year old Kosovan Muslim who officials say recently became radicalised, shouted "Allahu akbar" as he emptied his handgun aboard an Air Force bus, killing 2 airmen and seriously injuring 2 others. He then fled the scene, but was overpowered and arrested in an airport terminal.

(From various sources).

Should he be found guilty, could he be extradited to the US to be executed? Or would some €uro-nanny state 'human rights' nonsense prevent that.

[KeyPilot]

BEagle,

This post is below your usual high standard.

German law is the applicable one and it doesn't provide for execution, I'm pleased to say. Nor for extradition to a country in which no offence has taken place. Nor for extradition to any country in which the extraditee may be subject to the death penalty - multiple treaty commitments provide for this, even before European human rights legislation.

Even the US usually tries and convicts people before executing them.

[BEagle]

Even the US usually tries and convicts people before executing them.
Hence the reason I wrote "Should he be found guilty"....

Anyway, convicted murderers should certainly face the possibility of lawful execution, in my opinion.

[Airborne Aircrew]

One wonders why there are so few young Christian men running around yelling "God is great" before killing a group of muslims for no apparent reason yet the reverse is, somehow, becoming something of the norm.

[SirToppamHat]

Beagle

If I may say so, you are entirely within your rights to express your opinion; it is one with which I, personally, agree. However, even if I didn't agree, I would defend your right to express it.

RIP and Best Wishes to those affected.

STH

[KeyPilot]

Hence the reason I wrote "Should he be found guilty"....

You referred to the finding of guilt before extradition to the US for execution, thus implying that he would be convicted by a German court and then executed [without trial] in the US - hence my point stands.

Of course it is your right to express your opinion. I have the opposite one. Yes (some) young Muslims are developping a reputation for killing non-Muslims whilst people from a Judeo-Christian culture don't tend to. I like to be part of a culture that doesn't habitually kill people, and would like to remain so.

[Airborne Aircrew]

I like to be part of a culture that doesn't habitually kill people, and would like to remain so.

Actually, the ideal culture is one who doesn't kill as a matter of course but is also one that kills without compuction those who show they deserve it - like Mr. Arid Uka, there is no space remaining for him in decent society.

[Denti]

Germany abolished the death penalty in its constitution in 1949 (founding date of [west] germany). Not because of some euro nanny human rights stuff, but because of its very special recent past. To allow the state to kill its inhabitants was seen as the first step towards killing millions of them.

The constitution of the state Hessen of which frankfurt is a part in general still allows the death penalty, however federal law supercedes that. As mentioned above deportation into states that allow the death penalty in the tried case are not allowed.

[soddim]

Unfortunately, in such cases as these, the death penalty is pointless. The fanaticals are going to carry out these atrocities without regard for the consequences and the only way to change that is by promoting the right moral values and rooting out the immoderate religious zealots.

Thought I would offer my threepennith before this moves to JetBlast.

[Airborne Aircrew]

Unfortunately, in such cases as these, the death penalty is pointless. The fanaticals are going to carry out these atrocities without regard for the consequences and the only way to change that is by promoting the right moral values and rooting out the immoderate religious zealots.

So... Since there's "no point" let's not bother? If the consideration of a death penalty deters a single radical from carrying out such an act then it is worthwhile. Trying to talk them out of it is simply naive.

[baffman]

Should he be found guilty, could he be extradited to the US to be executed? Or would some €uro-nanny state 'human rights' nonsense prevent that.So you object to national law in a European sovereign country being subject to a human rights treaty, but you are happy for that same national law to be over-ruled by a country on the other side of the Atlantic?

[JFZ90]

He must have realised there was a good chance he would get shot anyway during his spree - so his mentality is akin to a suicide bomber. Hence death penalty is no deterrant. Stopping the brain washing that leads to the suicide bomber mentality is the only, or main, practical answer.

[Dengue_Dude]

He IS guilty, top the bastard then he'll find out whether he was right or wrong.

He was caught by one of the guys he tried to shoot until the gun jammed.

[Mad_Mark]

Unfortunately, in such cases as these, the death penalty is pointless.

Probably one hell of a lot cheaper than keeping the murdering scum in prison for life!

MadMark!!! :mad:

[ghostnav]

Probably one hell of a lot cheaper than keeping the murdering scum in prison for life!?????????? said ........

It is cheaper - but do we really have to lower ourselves to the scum that take life?

If the Death Penalty worked,, the US would not suffer the significant number of deaths each year; It doesn't. And who are we to lower ourselves to their standards.

Anyway, more lives are lost on the roads in Germany than being shot!

[Grabbers]

I think he should be given extensive (and expensive) rehabilitation, the right to vote in whichever country he chooses, and the opportunity to see the 'west' in all it's multicultural, Notting Hill Carnival glory. We need to be more inclusive. Making a martyr of this individual will only increase the number of people willing to follow in his footsteps. Engagement strategy is the only realistic option, however unpalatable that may be in the short term. And that, unless I am very much mistaken, is the long game is it not?

[Airborne Aircrew]

It is cheaper - but do we really have to lower ourselves to the scum that take life?

If the Death Penalty worked,, the US would not suffer the significant number of deaths each year; It doesn't. And who are we to lower ourselves to their standards.

Why do the lily livered always fall back on the old "lower ourselves" argument. It's nothing of the sort. It's a practical issue - a 9mm bullet costs a lot less than incarceration for life and we have no use for them in society while they are incarcerated so let's save the cash and pay the police, fire and ambulancemen more money.

The death penaly would certainly work if it were properly administered. There is no fear of the act of execution since the act is done in such a :"humane" way... I believe the deterrent effect would be much greater if we were to hang, draw and quarter the guilty... Publicly.

[Ali Barber]

Sentence him to life with pork, bacon and ham the only items on the menu. That way it's not a hunger strike, just a painful lingering death! No sympathy for his sort.

[tezzer]

click click, bang bang sorted !

Let him go and find his 78 virgins or whatever the f:mad:k he was promised !

[Whenurhappy]

So now that we've all had a good rant, we've determined:

That the death penalty will not be applied in this case
He will not be tried in the US
Any sentence is unlikely to have detered him
Stopping radicalising is probably a more effective strategy
And we don't simply shoot 'recalcitrants' simply because they are expensive to look afterPerhaps we are missing a few practical issues here;

Force Protection - given hightened alert state in German airports, I am surprised the US were using a Forrest Gump-style school bus to pick up troops. Similarly, having worked similar issues in the past, both Lander and Bundes Politzei are more than happy to provide 'additional HNS' if requested.

On Friday I was transitting through Munich Franz Josef airport and saw a number of US servicemen in uniform. I spoke with a woman Major in a natty blue urban combat BDUs and asked her if they were returning from theatre. It transpired she was an auditor, returning to he States from a visit to some USAFE facilities. I tactfully asked whether, given the shootings, whether uniform as appropriate. She replied 'oh that was over in Frankfurt, right? We'll be safe here!'

I was stunnd both by the naiviety and the implied arrogance of her answer. The US just don't seem to 'get' domestic terrorism, yet.

WP

[GreenKnight121]

If the Death Penalty worked,, the US would not suffer the significant number of deaths each year; It doesn't.

For ANY punishment to be effective as a deterrent, it must be swift and certain.


In the US, the death penalty is rarely carried out... even if the prisoner is so sentenced... and few of those convicted of murder are so sentenced.

Perhaps 1 in 5 of those sentenced to death are actually executed... the rest either get their sentences commuted to life in prison, die in prison from natural causes or are killed by other prisoners, or manage to get their convictions overturned.

Thus, the death penalty as currently applied is not certain.



Those who are executed normally gain 5-10 years of time via legal appeals and other maneuverings... some of those recently executed were convicted and sentenced over 20 years ago!

Thus, the death penalty as currently applied is not swift.



In addition, the rate at which convictions have been being overturned for all categories of violent crime (mainly due to DNA evidence proving that the convicted was not the killer/rapist/attacker) indicates that the death penalty should be reserved for cases where guilt is absolutely beyond doubt (such as in the Frankfurt case, where the killer is captured in the act of murder), lest an innocent person be executed.




There is 1 main goal in criminal punishment (protect society from the actions of criminals), and 3 intermediate steps to achieving it...

1. deter the criminal from repeating the crime (or other crimes).

2. deter others from committing crimes due to the example of punishment.

3. provide society with relief from fear (the criminal can not harm the victim or anyone else) and with release of anger (the b@$tard got what he deserved).


#1 is done by making the consequences of the crime unpleasant enough and certain enough that the criminal decides to not repeat it, and by insuring that the criminal does not have to repeat it (by educating an under-educated criminal and teaching employable skills to unskilled criminals).

#2 is done by making the example(s) of the consequences of the crime unpleasant enough and certain enough that other potential criminals decide to not commit those crimes.

#3 is necessary to prevent citizens from seeking their own vengeance upon the suspected criminal and to keep fear from building into violent panic (humans destroy that which they fear).



The death penalty ensures that that criminal will never again harm society (collectively or individually), and that society need neither fear what the criminal might do or fear what the victims of the criminal might do to get revenge.

It also prevents any rehabilitation of the criminal and deprives society of any contributions that criminal could have made after rehabilitation.



In the minds of those here, what do you think could be the factor(s) that make a criminal not rehabilitatable (and thus not worth spending the money to imprison, and what crimes are so extreme as to justify such an extreme punishment?

[JuergenP]

In the 1970s the US army always transited in civilian clothing...they have forgotton this...sad

[Airborne Aircrew]

GK:

Quite simple. Since all actions have consequences then if you do the crime you do the time. If the time is demed to be death, (murder, kiddie fiddling, rape being a Lions Fan), then so be it. No appeals process where the eveidence is solid. A simple bye bye, nice knowing you, good riddance works for me.

[Duncan D'Sorderlee]

And here was me thinking that this would be a condolences thread for those US Servicemen murdered in Germany.

RIP

Duncs:ok:

[con-pilot]

Actually after the fourth shot the gunman's gun jammed. The Airman that the assassin was aiming at when the gun jammed, chased after the shooter and helped the local police subdue the shooter.

Give me a minute or two and I'll try and find a link to the story.

[Dengue_Dude]

And here was me thinking that this would be a condolences thread for those US Servicemen murdered in Germany.

Well perhaps it should be, but it also shows how strongly people feel about bloody radical Moslems . . .

As for not making him a martyr - who was the second IRA hunger striker (martyr), anyone remember.

Summary execution.

Would be nice to know what the 'shot' guys would have said, seeing all the do-gooders springing out of the woodwork aiming not to 'lower ourselves to his standard'.

Do you think for a second that stance is treated with anything but contempt by this kind of perpetrator - it's decadence and weakness in their eyes?