IMCr

[thing]

Does anyone know, in a quick and concise answer of yes or no whether IMCr holders are getting grandfather rights as of next April when the IMCr becomes extinct.

[Jim59]

I don't think it has been decided - so nobody knows!

[thing]

OK thanks Jim.

[Genghis the Engineer]

IMC Rating win (http://www.loop.aero/LPA2366/AOPA+WINS+IMC+CONCESSION+FROM+EUROCRATS.aspx)

G

[thing]

Thanks Ghengis, I had read that before but this bit

'EASA's Notice of Proposed Amendment covering instrument flying is due in January 2011, at which time the precise details of its intentions on the IMC rating will become known'

Where is the proposed amendment?

[BEagle]

The EASA NPA won't be released until June 2011. Then there will be a consultation response period before the final draft goes to 'commitology' and finally to the European Parliament.

Which means that it will be impossible for any associated rule change to be in place by Apr 2012. A point which has beeen put very firmly to EASA!

The CAA's understanding of the role of 'opt out periods' and the ability of the FCL.002 group (which hasn't even been formed yet) to sort things out has had to be reviewed. So quite what the UK's strategy will be remains to be seen!

'Grandfathering' will be insufficient. The UK isn't prepared to accept the loss of flight safety for the administrative convenience of €urocrats.

[thing]

Thanks Beagle. The reason I'm asking is that all the flight schools are saying 'Get your IMCr now while there's time' but I don't want to waste money on something that might or might not become defunct.

[SkyCamMK]

If you accept the IMCr is good for safety get on with it you cannot waste skill and experience gained that is aimed at making you a safer better pilot.

[thing]

I accept that but the point I'm making is if I do it and it becomes unusable next year it's been a waste of money, the experience won't have been a waste of money but the rating will be. It's no good knowing how to shoot an instrument approach if you're not allowed to do them anymore. You may as well have four or five hours with an IR rated pilot to gain some instrument appreciation without the hassle of exams and checkrides.

[IO540]

I don't want to waste money on something that might or might not become defunct.

The training will be priceless, in any case.

But I don't think the IMCR will be ended.

[DBisDogOne]

As above, do it now, I'm glad I did, made me a much more accurate and competent pilot, not nervous about a bit of haze etc. I don't use mine very much (I know... should keep in better practice - guilty) but well worth having in your armoury.
Personally, I'd recommend anyone to get theirs sooner rather than later as this time next year I suspect it'll be hard to find space as people panic to get theirs done before the April cutoff - if indeed that is still valid(?).


Even if (& I don't think it will for a minute) it were junked, the training I've had will never be wasted and could mean the difference between getting myself, passengers and aircraft safely back to earth or becoming a tragic member of the 'Lost control in IMC' club (ie: all dead plus possibly some innocents on the ground). While I wouldn't deliberately fly into IMC, were it unavoidable then if it means I can do the former to avoid the latter by using a defunct rating, then I'll do so every time, you can drag my sorry-ass into court and I'll happily face the music because I'll be alive to do so rather than another statistic (he's dead but he wasn't illegally using his instrument training - good for him).

[thing]

Reminds me of the West Indian rear gunner in WWII who sat in his turret during an emergency landing, apparently he was supposed to sit by the main spar. The a/c was a complete write off but luckily the rear turret broke free and apart from a few bruises he was OK. They then tried to discipline him for not carrying out SOP's................

Re the IMCr, it's sounding like a good idea. I haven't even started my PPL yet, hopefully it will be next month, but I was going to do the whole lot in one fell swoop, PPL, night rating and IMCr while I still have a training and examination head on. I know a guy who did the whole lot in less than a year without really breaking sweat or taking much over the minimum hours.

[Intercepted]

Re the IMCr, it's sounding like a good idea. I haven't even started my PPL yet, hopefully it will be next month, but I was going to do the whole lot in one fell swoop, PPL, night rating and IMCr while I still have a training and examination head on. I know a guy who did the whole lot in less than a year without really breaking sweat or taking much over the minimum hours. I like your attitude regards making it all in minimum hours and within a year, but remember that a newly issued PPL is only a license to learn. For you to be able to fly on instruments with required presicion/safety within 15 hours (imcr) you would have to be a confident PPL with some experience. This is also reflected in the rules surrounding the IMCr. You will need 25 hours of total experience as pilot of aeroplanes following PPL issue before you can start your IMCr training.

[IO540]

I haven't even started my PPL yet, hopefully it will be next month, but I was going to do the whole lot in one fell swoop, PPL, night rating and IMCr while I still have a training and examination head on. I know a guy who did the whole lot in less than a year without really breaking sweat or taking much over the minimum hours.That's the best way to do all this.

And try to fly with some experienced pilots during your training, and get them to help you with any specific bits. Then, when you have your PPL, you will be able to just fly somewhere...

Very few people do a PPL in 45hrs. Those that do either have exceptional aptitude, or have been flying with somebody else ;)

I also firmly believe that much of the VFR-IFR distinction is simply wrong. You are flying a plane and you have multiple visual cues. Some come from the view outside, some come from the instruments. And even when VFR some come from the engine gauges etc, and of course the GPS. An instrument pilot will seamlessly transition between all these. So it is good to pick up instrument skills way before you are legal to use them. The establishment has to disagree because that is how it always was, right back to WW2, but the world has moved on.

You can be flying in perfect legal VFR in 3000m vis but you cannot (esp. over the sea) control the aircraft and navigate without instrument skills. Same on a proper dark night. One should never fly at night unless one has the full instrument skills (control and nav).

[BEagle]

You will need 25 hours of total experience as pilot of aeroplanes following PPL issue before you can start your IMCr training.

Not so. See LASORS E3.2 - the 25 hours is before applying for the Rating, not before starting IMCr training. As a minimum, this could be the 10 hrs PIC since licence issue (5 of which on cross-country flying) and 15 hrs PU/T on the course (10 of which as flight be sole reference to instruments).

[thing]

Thanks for the replies everyone, it really is much appreciated. I'm not going into this as a complete flight novice, I'm an experienced gider pilot (which will knock some hours off the required time, note the required time, I understand it takes as long as it takes), I've done quite a bit of light powered flying over the years and I was in the RAF for 20 odd years as an avionics eng so I know aircraft and instruments, how they work, what they do etc. I was also an instructor for four years on theory of flight, nav principles and flight systems.

Now I know that all of the above means diddly when sitting learning motor skills in a powered aircraft and I'm certainly not going into this thinking it will be a doddle and I just have to tick the boxes, otherwise I wouldn't waste my time and money because hopefully it will be challenging which is why I'm doing it.

I do though think that the frequency with which you do something is an important factor in determining how long it takes to do it. I should have a little pension payout next week which will be more than enough for the PPL and ratings, so I can fly as often as they can sling me into an aeroplane with an instructor, I'm not stuck to weekends either I can go whenever. Of course I'm assuming that I'll pass the medical, if I don't then it will be NPPL as I already have the medical for that. I think the most important thing I have to take with me is confidence around aircraft and lack of mystery. I've been around them all of my adult life, now I have to learn to master the fan on the front..........:ok:

[stickandrudderman]

Thing,
As other's have said, get the IMC ASAP, not because you need the piece of paper, but because you'll be a better pilot for it.
I've had an IMC for several years, I've struggled with both my renewals and have never carried out an instrument approach on my own, but I'm still glad to have it and see it as money well spent.
Perhaps one day I'll be able to declare that the IMC saved my life, but if that's so then it's also pretty certain that if I didn't have it I wouldn't be able to say anything at all!

[Gertrude the Wombat]

we really did train in real IMC whenever possible
I was told that the "wherever possible" excluded the "recovery from unusual attitudes on partial panel" exercise, which was required to be conducted in VMC :)

[thing]

Well done Clifford!

[Gertrude the Wombat]

First trip after getting my IMCr I went looking for some cloud, climbed up through it, navigated round a triangle, spotted the correct landmarks through the occasional holes, and popped back out of the cloud in the right place pointing in the right direction - magic!

Only the first ten seconds or so were a bit nervous-making: in cloud for the first time on my own, can I really do this?

[IO540]

Being able to safely transit cloud is fantastic, and (paradoxically) enables flight in VMC on top and that is pretty well essential for long distance flying.

Well done :ok:

[thing]

Thanks Clifford, I take my first leap into the unknown next week.......