Night Rating in USA

[felixflyer]

Quick question, do I need a VISA to just do a night rating in the USA?

[AdamFrisch]

Well, the night rating is part of the FAA PPL, so if you're doing that, then yes. You also need TSA clearance.

If you're doing a JAA NQ in the US, then I don't think you need one as you only need a TSA clearance for each initial rating or category and the night qualification in the US is neither. It's a bit inconsistent, though, as if you have ASEL, you do not need TSA approval to do ASES even though technically that's a new rating.

I've had to apply for TSA approval for my FAA PPL, my Multi Engine Rating and my Instrument rating. For all the high altitude, ASES, complex, high powered etc stuff, you don't.

[SNS3Guppy]

A night rating isn't required in the USA.

The requirement for a night rating is somewhat superfluous and ridiculous, although some countries do require it (much like type ratings in aircraft that really ought not need them).

Why would you go all the way to the US to get a "night rating?"

[BackPacker]

It's a bit inconsistent, though, as if you have ASEL, you do not need TSA approval to do ASES even though technically that's a new rating.

Adam, the whole TSA thing is set up, essentially, to prevent a second 9/11, where the terrorists gained their knowledge by enrolling in US flight schools. So you need TSA approval for every learning activity that significantly enhances your ability to fly an airliner into a building. (Sounds harsh, but is almost the exact wording in the bill.)

This comes down to:
- Initial airmans rating (aka PPL)
- Multi-engine
- Instrument rating
- Type ratings

Learning to fly a floatplane or a taildragger, or any other qualifications/endorsements within the SEP class (high alt, complex) doesn't significantly enhance that ability, so no TSA clearance is required for those.

Does it make a bit more sense now?

[felixflyer]

Well I will be there in Florida on a weeks holiday in 3 weeks time. I am finding it hard to get it done in the UK as due to the weather most schools seem to be behind with the night rating students and they don't really do it after March.

As I wasn't planning on doing any flying I don't have a VISA or anything but I have just had it confirmed that I dont need one as if I had an FAA PPL I wouldnt need it.

Regards

[BackPacker]

VISA requirements are completely independent of TSA requirements. TSA requirements are as per my earlier post.

You require an M-1 VISA (temporary student) if your main purpose for visiting the US is training of some sort. But if your main purpose is just short-term tourism or business (under the Visa Waiver Programme I assume), and your secondary purpose is to pick up the night qualification, if possible, then you don't need an M-1 VISA.

At least, i think you can argue that if you're going to be there for a full week, and in that full week you're going to do maybe five hours flight training (two nights, essentially), then that flight training is not your primary purpose. But at the end of the day it's the friendly immigration officer at the airport who decides whether he's going to let you in or not.

Whether you hold an FAA PPL or not, by the way, has nothing to do with the VISA question. The FAA PPL was only brought up because the FAA PPL includes a night rating by default: It's a standard part of the syllabus and if you skip that somehow you will end up with a restriction on your FAA PPL. Whereas in JAA-land, it's an extra. And since you weren't clear in your initial post whether you were talking JAA or FAA, both were covered in the responses.

[englishal]

The M1 is for a course of study in excess of 18 hours per week typically. As a NQ is typically 5 hours or so, I think you could argue that an M1 is not required.

[BackPacker]

So if the initial issue happens to be a Commercial - you need TSA.

Good point. I agree. But I think this only applies to integrated courses, doesn't it? In which case the ME and IR form part of the course as well.

And would you need to pay three times the TSA fee for an integrated course?

I believe the JAR night requires solo time

Yes. You need to do five take-offs and full stop landings as PIC, and that implies solo flight since you're not yet allowed to take passengers. All the rest can be dual. (More information in LASORS section E4.)

[felixflyer]

After speaking to a flying school I have been told I do not need a visa or tsa etc.
I have a jar ppl and a 61.75 so I also don't need a medical. Looks like the best way to do it is whilst I'm over there.

[BackPacker]

If he's got a 61.75 based on a JAA PPL without a NQ, then that 61.75 will be restricted to Day VFR only, won't it?

So the night solo flights will have to be flown on an FAA student pilot certificate slash FAA class 3 medical anyway, right?

So I think you've got to visit a doctor (2+ hours easily) for 15 minutes of solo flying. A bit over the top of course. I would send a letter to the FAA asking them to waive the FAA class 3 medical requirements for these 15 minutes, based on the fact that you have a perfectly valid JAA PPL plus medical.

Or simply risk it.:rolleyes:

[BackPacker]

If somebody held a FAR 61.75 certificate issued on the basis of a foreign cert (which does not require TSA), then applied for a standalone FAA Commercial (for example), then s/he would require TSA as that would be the "initial issue" of a full FAA cert.

Mmm. I don't think I fully agree with that. The TSA specifies "the initial issue of an airman's certificate" but it doesn't make a specification that this applies to an FAA certificate specifically.

So if you have a JAA PPL then I would think that that is considered your initial airmens certificate. If you get a subsequent FAA PPL (61.75 or standalone) or CPL, then it's not an "initial" certificate anymore.

After all, if the "initial airman's certificate" term would be tied to an FAA license, then everyone doing a JAA PPL in Florida would be exempt, wouldn't they?

But to be honest, I did search the flightschoolcandidates.gov site and the Interim Final Rule and I can't find any detailed category description anywhere (although the FAQ promises that there should be one in the IFR). There is something in the FAQs about an FAA CPL certificate as initial certificate but those are just interpretations of the IFR. And can easily be taken as to apply in the context of integrated training (no PPL issued halfway through) as well.

So don't take my word for it, one way or another.

[MarkerInbound]

If he's got a 61.75 based on a JAA PPL without a NQ, then that 61.75 will be restricted to Day VFR only, won't it?

So the night solo flights will have to be flown on an FAA student pilot certificate slash FAA class 3 medical anyway, right?

So I think you've got to visit a doctor (2+ hours easily) for 15 minutes of solo flying. A bit over the top of course. I would send a letter to the FAA asking them to waive the FAA class 3 medical requirements for these 15 minutes, based on the fact that you have a perfectly valid JAA PPL plus medical.




If it takes 2 hours you're seeing the wrong guy. I get 30 minutes of waiting and 10 minutes with the nurse and 10 with the doctor. In and out < one hour.

Have you ever seen the FAA waiver policy? He's doing this next month.

[BackPacker]

Or like I said go dig out the regulation itself.

The thing is, I did. I spent a good half hour trawling through the IFR that's published on the flightschoolcandidates.gov website, and a further 15 minutes on regulations.gov which eventually threw the same IFR at me. I couldn't find a clarification on "initial airman's certificate" anywhere. In fact, the IFR simply specifies that *all* training on an aircraft < 12.500 pounds requires approval.

I have also looked at the 2004 clarification from the TSA that spells out the exact requirements and exemptions for category 3 aliens. (TSA-2004-19147-0337, here: https://www.flightschoolcandidates.gov/TSA-2004-19147-0337.pdf) and this is what they say about it:

After further consideration, TSA has determined that three types of training substantially enhance piloting skills, and thus should be subject to the threat assessment requirements in the IFR. The first is training that a candidate could use toward an initial private pilot certificate (or other entry-level certificate, including a recreational or sport pilot certificate) because such training provides a pilot with basic piloting skills. [...]

1. Accordingly, TSA is further clarifying the definition of flight training in aircraft with an MTOW of 12,500 pounds or less to include only training that a candidate could use towards the following certificates and ratings:
(a) The candidate's initial pilot certificate, including a private, recreational, or sport pilot certificate.
(b) The multi-engine rating.
(c) The candidate's instrument rating.

So I still can't understand where this line in the AFSP FAQ:
-- If a private and/or commercial license is the candidate's initial FAA license, it is considered an initial airman's certificate and is not exempt.
comes from.

The only thing I can think of is that this applies to ab-initio integrated training, where a CPL is the first license you receive. But if they're trying to ensure that you go through the TSA process for your first FAA license (FAA CPL based on JAA PPL for instance), then I can't find a basis for that in the actual legislation.

So unless a further regulation or clarification is hidden somewhere, by the TSA's own logic (first para), and by it's own wording (second para), I would say that training for an FAA CPL based on a JAA PPL would not require TSA approval. The term "initial airman's certificate" is not tied to an FAA certificate in any legislation that I found so far, so a JAA PPL would qualify as an "initial airman's certificate" too.

The AOPA website, nor the AFSP FAQ is the definitive legislative document, as far as I'm concerned, just an interpretation. And I don't know that DPE but if the first word in the title of his page contains a spelling error already I'm not impressed. In any case his page doesn't refer to the actual legislation itself so that's not going to help me.

Despite this, I'm happy to stand corrected. But do so by pointing at the legislative documents themselves, rather than by interpretations of them.

[Golf--Lima--Papa]

I'm also struggling to complete my Night Qualification in the UK....



I've been reading Lasors 2010 Section E4.3

'Where an applicant holds a night rating/qualification (or a logbook entry if that is the method of endorsement required by the National Aviation Authority) issued by an ICAO contracting state, they may apply for the Night Qualification (Aeroplane) endorsement on to their UK or JAR-FCL licence providing the requirement of E4.2 have been met. Logbook evidence of the Night flying training completed will be required together with evidence of licence/logbook endorsement.'

Now after reading that, what is to stop me meeting the requirements of E4.2 in the USA at a FAA school?

I hold a JAA PPL and have a piggy-back FAA PPL, I fly in the states every month and hire a PA-28 from an FAA school in LA. It would be so much easier if I could fly the requirements of E4.2 while out in LA, then apply to the CAA to add the NQ onto my JAA PPL. I'd have met all the requirements asked by the Night Qualification section in Lasors.

Anyone have any idea about this?

Thanks in advance. :ok:





E4.2 Requirements
5 hours overall night flying
3 hours dual training (to include 1 hour dual Nav)
5 take-off's and Full stop landings as PIC at Night.

[Golf--Lima--Papa]

Thanks for your swift reply as always SoCal.

I really wouldn't mind getting an FAA Medical, this would be so much easier and would save me at least a few hundred quid if I could do this in LA.

5 Hours dual flying in LA would cost me around 750 dollars which works out around 460 pounds sterling.

Night Qualification in the UK is costing anything between 750-900 pounds sterling.

Have any you guys or girls followed a similar path to gaining the NQ on your JAA PPL?

[Golf--Lima--Papa]

Perfect, So going by what I've taken from the rest of this thread. I'm getting the FAA Medical to enable me to fly as a solo student? Is that correct?

Looks like all I need to do is :

1. Get the medical
2. Fly the hours
3. Get the instructor to sign my logbook
4. Send my logbook to the CAA

Again many thanks for taking the time to reply, its much appreciated. I will also send an e-mail to the CAA Licensing department to ask if this will be accepted.

P.S. I fly from KEMT SoCal.

[Golf--Lima--Papa]

I'm bumping this up to the top as I e-mailed the CAA on the 2nd March and as of today 17th March I've yet to receive a reply...

Have any ppruners used the above method to get the NQ on the JAA PPL?