Top Gear - Citabria crash

[FlyingForFun]

I'm surprised to not see any comments on here yet about last night's Top Gear, which showed a Citabria, LN-RAR, attempting to land on a frozen lake which had been cleared of snow by a snow-plow which had been made by the presenters - and apparently crashing in the process.

I don't really feel very qualified to comment on it, since I've never flown on skis, nor on unprepared ground. My observations, though, were that all was not quite as it seems. As the aircraft touched down, the prop appeared to stop - which surely isn't normal practice? Then there was a shot of the presenters, followed by another shot of the aircraft, with its engine running again, going over some admitedly very bumpy ground but apparently under control. Another shot of the presenters, then the aircraft sliding, out of control but very slow, into a snow-bank, but again with the prop stationary.

What are other people's views on this? Was it completely staged? I'd be curious to know the views of people with experience on skis.....

FFF
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[whifferdill]

Not flown on skis, but most of TopGear is 'completely staged' - entertaining, but liberal doses of artisitc licence are emplyed.

[FlyingForFun]

Agreed. James May said, after the clip was shown, "I know we're often accused of faking things, but you can't fake a plane crash." I'm sceptical....!

FFF
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[BabyBear]

FFF, like you I watched in bewilderment and thought there was something didn't add up, even for it to be staged.

I struggle to understand how it could be staged in an hour long BBC entertainment programme. Hollywood Blockbuster, maybe?

There were elements that did seem staged, the crew casually getting out?

It left me questioning who picks up the tab for any checks on the aircraft, injury to the flight crew etc.

I would like to see the contract covering it.

[HPSC]

staged or not staged.. either way it made me chuckle!

It served its purpose as a comedy moment:}

g'nite folks!:ok:

[Meldrew]

Guys, with my knowledge and experience in television production, I can tell you that it would definately be staged and not as it appeared to be. There is no way in the world that a tv production would do, or be allowed to participate in an action that would compromise air safety in the way that appeared to happen. If you were the participating pilot as shown, would you attempt to land on any runway surface apparently prepared by the presenting trio without a full pre flight inspection? I thought not!

[BabyBear]

Indeed Meldrew, but then I wouldn't have landed on the 'runway' they did land on had I inspected it. I can't see how they could anticipate how the aircraft would respond hitting the ruts as it did? No doubt it was staged, it is the degree of staging versus risk level, I question.

[John Miller]

My biggest disappointment with Top Gear was the Cessna 182 vs Bugatti Veyron race across Europe. It was a very poor and wildly inaccurate reflection on GA. Complete nonsense.

[DERG]

You realise they are banned from entering the USA..yes? Reason: law enforcement did not have enough staff to ensure the peace was kept.
Shame the EUR does not do similar..this crew are a liability to society. The little guy almost killed himself, total liability...then he tries to repay the air ambulance that saved his life by doing ONE free programme. They are a total pain in the butt.

[Meldrew]

I agree that the degree of staging is what we are discussing here. the only actual touch down shot that I recall could have been a touch and go as they cut away from the shot quite quickly, when you saw the aircraft on the ground after that, it was a shot of a low speed taxi, and then a shot of it apparently veering left into a snow bank. All easily accomplished with care and creative editing. The tongue in cheek nature of Top Gear, so far as aviation is concerned, can be winessed in a previous series when a runaway airship "supposedly" piloted by James May, ran amok in the vicinity of Norwich airport! I speak by the way as a huge fan of the show in general. James May as a PPL himself, is obviously keen to involve aviation in the show from time to time.

[wsmempson]

I believe the reason "Top Gear" was 'banned' from filming in the USA was because they had visa's, work and filming permits which allowed them to film for 'documentary purposes'. The American authorities subsequently deemed that the show was not a documentary - but entertainment - and that the visas and permits had been incorrectly/disingenuously obtained.

I assume that their problems have now been resolved and, in any case, there is now an American version of "Top Gear" which must give them some sort of exchange programme!

[BackPacker]

The tongue in cheek nature of Top Gear, so far as aviation is concerned, can be winessed in a previous series when a runaway airship "supposedly" piloted by James May, ran amok in the vicinity of Norwich airport!

And that was discussed on here at great length, with people on the inside confirming that this was indeed staged, and with great professionalism too.

[IO540]

My biggest disappointment with Top Gear was the Cessna 182 vs Bugatti Veyron race across Europe. It was a very poor and wildly inaccurate reflection on GA. Complete nonsense.

I agree; it was a stupid stunt and a great wasted opportunity to help GA. If May really has a PPL he could have done much much more than a stupid demeaning stunt like that which made GA pilots look like a bunch of incompetent d*ckheads.

I hardly watch it nowadays because it is just a comedy.

[Fuji Abound]

Yep, just good fun, if not as good as the last series. I too dont watch it very often these days.

As to the flying - those that know, know it is staged and those that dont probably dont care anyway and are totally clueless about what light aircraft or any other aircraft for that matter do.

More worrying for me are those on this forum who actually think it wasnt staged. :)

[IO540]

I disagree with Jambone. We are all ambassadors for our activity, and already most members of the public regard it as a hobby for a few spoilt rich kids. This is reflected in hostile attitudes from NIMBYs, planners, etc. So, and notwithstanding the inaccuracy of this perception, I would not support some programme which denigrates GA.

That Cessna v. Veyron stunt should have shown the Cessna wiping the Veyron off the map, by several hours.

[Parapunter]

I can tell you no one is standing round the watercoolers of the nation discussing the wording of their letters of complaint to any passing aviation authority.

Some of you people scarily cannot tell the difference between a comedy show & a perilous adventure. There are some achingly straight faces around this place. I advise a pill, a long walk in the country & turning off the tv more often. Ambassadors my hairy backside!:rolleyes:

[Fuji Abound]

IO540

Yes, I sort of agree with you.

However, a little bit of me says everyone knows the car always wins, even the plebs. In fact a friend of mine who is mad keen on motorsports, and races his car, commented that it was totally unrealistic albeit knowing nothing about GA. As to a few spoilt rich kids - well I suppose from some peoples perspective that is entirely true - lets face it very few of us use GA for any really useful purpose (unless of course you consider the typical burger run - useful ;)).

That said May does indeed have a PPL and does fly regularly. It would have done no harm to give GA a small plug and in that regard an opportunity was missed.

Still all good fun. At least Clarkson tells it how it is when it comes to some of the battery cars which very few other people seem prepared to admit.

[eharding]

That Cessna v. Veyron stunt should have shown the Cessna wiping the Veyron off the map, by several hours.

Complete horsefeathers.

Having done a bit of touring in that very 182, I can confirm that it invariably needs to stop every 30 minutes for replenishment of pie supplies, to the extent that the autopilot tends to head for the nearest eating establishment regardless of what heading is selected.

That being said, I suspect if you put TheGorrilla in a Veyron, you might have much the same effect.

[S-Works]

I have never seen such a bunch of straight laced humourless people in my life.......:rolleyes:

[xj8driver]

So if James May is a PPL holder and was paid for his appearance in the Cessna/Veyron 'race', and thus to fly, I wonder how that squares with the terms of his licence? Unless, of course, he's a CPL holder? :confused:

Just a thought..

[S-Works]

He was accompanied by an Instructor for the entire flight. I would probably guess that was to ensure the commander was a CPL holder.

[eharding]

He was accompanied by an Instructor for the entire flight. I would probably guess that was to ensure the commander was a CPL holder.

Indeed. Captain Slow wasn't the captain. Captain Captain was the captain.

[Fuji Abound]

Hence my earlier comment - the producers etc are not the complete bunch of dim wits some might imagine, and they cant afford to be these days. They will complete endless H and S checklists and would be most unlikely to fall foul of something as simple as putting May in charge of the flight.

It really is a case of waking up and smelling the coffee - it is TV, there is an army of consultants and safety guys at work behind the scenes, the whole thing is stage managed and designed to cause a little controversy and be a bit of fun.

and before anyone says, yes I know things do go wrong as was the case with the Hamsters crash, which only goes to prove the best made plans etc. Just think Captain Slow and Captain Captain could have had an engine failure and ended up with a less than ideal forced landing (yes, single engines do fail, and yes, it is inevitable, when they do the aircraft must land).

and on that Bomb Shell

[Tim Dawson]

I echo the sentiments of others that it's just an entertainment show, and I find it entertaining. As a PPL holder I especially enjoy it when they involve aviation in some way, and I expect many/most viewers appreciate it too despite not holding one. The "crash" last Sunday was funny, and when my GF said "is that really a crash" I said I thought it just looked like a ground loop into a snowdrift. The landing we saw wasn't on any runway that they'd prepared, anyway.

James May holds a PPL and was a student when they did the Veyron thing. I think I read in a book by one of the presenters that Hammond now has a PPL(H) too.

It's just a bit of fun!

[Evanelpus]

I disagree with Jambone. We are all ambassadors for our activity

Top Gear wasn't trying to portray GA pilots as anything. It was a light hearted piece of entertainment. Do you really think that the show set out to get you and your mates?

Get over youself!

[fisbangwollop]

I thought it was a Maule not a Citabria??...also if that reg was correct its not the first time the reg has come to grief!!! ASN Aircraft accident 99-FEB-1954 Piper L-4J Cub LN-RAR (http://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/wiki.php?id=16650)

[Shell Management]

I wish humour-free Daily Mail readers wouldn't post on here.

[Runaway Gun]

Apparently the Stig CAN talk, he just chooses not to on TV :)

[Sir George Cayley]

Just watched the 'crash' again.

Looks to me that the Citabria landed on the centre of the lake on which there was little or no snow. The a/c then climbed up a rough slope towards the camera with the poorly pushed around loose snow in view..

The prop was spinning quickly indicating power to climb the slope and maintain speed. The last part was with either the mags off or mix pulled. There's loud crack but nothing breaks and a bit of rudder just before yawing left.

In conclusion M'lud - Fake.

Sir George Cayley

[Jan Olieslagers]

Those complaining about failing senses of humour might be unaware of the amount of people that take _anything_ shown on telly as absolute truth. We pilots are of course able to see the fake, and take it lightly and even enjoy it as a comedy; but we should not forget we are of a high order of human intelligence. Well, most of us, anyway.
Being particularly high on said intelligence scale, I don't even have a telly box so I haven't seen the story - will hear what the people in the office have to say about it tomorrow.

[JEM60]

James May had a half share in a Luscombe with motoring journalist Colin Goodwin. James now owns and flies a Citabria Decathlon and also owns a very nice Ferrari.

[S-Works]

Those complaining about failing senses of humour might be unaware of the amount of people that take _anything_ shown on telly as absolute truth.


Who cares.....

I don't believe for a moment that the TARDIS is bigger on the inside than the outside nor that wearing my underpants on the outside will allow me to leap tall buildings in a single bound.

TV is entertainment and believe me Joe public will not have paid a second thought to that scene in TG.

People on here are way to full of their own self importance. Listen up, you operate a machine, it does not make you special and no one is an ambassador of anything. Get a sense of humour................

[DERG]

"The American authorities subsequently deemed that the show was not a documentary - but entertainment - and that the visas and permits had been incorrectly/disingenuously obtained."

Nah they just behaved badly, upseting people, deliberately being disrespectful. The visa refusal was the tip of an iceberg. They are not the fastest payers for goods recieved either. Best keep well clear if they ask you to provide something.

The Brit humour culture does not travel well. They were lucky while they were there, but the local troopers had other things to do

[Ty-Fry-Typhoon]

Who cares! they had Amber Heard :E

[IO540]

People on here are way to full of their own self importance. Listen up, you operate a machine, it does not make you special and no one is an ambassador of anything. Get a sense of humour................

Shall I post a link to one of your pompous "that if you fly like a pro you are treated like a pro" pieces, IFR at FL180 with a Garmin 496 on top of the dash?

[maxred]

Obviously we are quickly losing our senses of humour:\

Chaps, a TV programme, I get upset when they diss my Merc, cause I think it is the best in the world:cool:

Admittedly that Hamster was getting on my nerves when he kept dissing the aircraft:sad:

[S-Works]

Shall I post a link to one of your pompous "that if you fly like a pro you are treated like a pro" pieces, IFR at FL180 with a Garmin 496 on top of the dash?

Suprised you could find the time to move away from your usual self aggrandisement of your own activities......... :p

And of course you are renowned for your lack of sense of humour.....:ok:

[hightower1986]

Anyway enough of all the b*tching, how about Jezza's snow depth test! :D
That man is ridiculous/genius and should be made PM at once, with Amber Heard as Deputy:ok:

[FlyingKiwi_73]

PPRUNE: Come for the advice,... stay for the bitching and put downs :-)

[Booglebox]

The whole thing was brilliant (flamethrower on Dominator completely ineffecutal though!) and hilarious. Especially the snow depth test as previously stated.

But I'm not so certain that it was staged - the bumpy landing and mini-groundloop looked sort of plausible, and, having been involved with them on a similar but unrelated aviation film project, I reckon the TG lot would manage to balls something up to the required extent for it to happen. That said, I am somewhat gullible :O

[flybymike]

Would like to have seen Amber Heard do the snow depth test in hot pants...

[trex450]

I thought a crash was a landing that you didn't walk away from, looked a bit bumpy to me with a well positioned lump at the end to give it a dramatic twist round for the camera. Add in a sound effect for good measure and que lots of folk with nothing better to do haveing a go at Top Gear. :D

[IO540]

I think this thread got picked up from elsewhere on pprune and dumped here in general aviation - hence the "lively discussion" :)

I am all for TG being treated as a joke, which it is IMHO (very little information of value to a prospective car buyer).

[proudprivate]

My biggest disappointment with Top Gear was the Cessna 182 vs Bugatti Veyron race across Europe. It was a very poor and wildly inaccurate reflection on GA. Complete nonsense.


I found it hilarious entertainment. Especially the background music, with Clarkson crossing the Franco-Swiss border with the Marseillaise being played on a high octave metallophone while zooming in on a sh1tting rooster. And then May supposedly getting a "clearance" from French ATC causing him to turn almost 90 degrees on the soundtrack of "Where eagles dare..."

I don't think Volkswagen would have lent Top Gear their Veyron if the ageing 182 was meant to beat their £1M car.

So of course it was rigged / staged / whatever. And while May's general aviation touch is a good thing, I agree it is not an optimal GA promotion programme, but surely it is not Top Gear's mission to promote GA.

Incidentally, broadcasting companies are always on the lookout for GA-related documentaries. We recently had a 30 minute prime time show covering the Stampe fly-in at Antwerp airport, with additional historical touches about two Belgian pilots' escape to England in an SV4 during the occupation and about Elza Leysen sponsoring Stampe and being the first Belgian female aerobatic pilot (in the 30-ies).

So, if you feel the need to promote GA, it suffices to write a skeleton script and make some amateur video material as a proof of concept and discuss this with the BBC. Topics could be :
- Instrument flying to visit the UK's and/or mainland Europe's touristic spots
- General Aviation and Regional Airports in support of local business
- The £100 Hamburger or how to beat Network Rail
- ...

[Evanelpus]

I am all for TG being treated as a joke, which it is IMHO (very little information of value to a prospective car buyer).

Not quite true, if you have £50,000 plus to spend, a lot of the reviews on Top Gear may help you decide on a particular model.

[toptobottom]

The antics on TG have attrcated a lot of column inches on pprune, usually by enthusiastic petrol heads who enjoy being ENTERTAINED :ugh:

The format has substantially changed from being a boring car magazine, to a [middle aged] lads entertainment programme - and is much the better for it. The car tests are incidental and although the perpetual power slides and the predictable outcome of the various challenges get tedious, it's still unique and great entertainment!!

If you're the type to analyse every detail, assess the feasibility of each situation and get worked up over any discrepancies, then I would suggest it's not the programme for you :ok:

[IO540]

if you have £50,000 plus to spend, a lot of the reviews on Top Gear may help you decide on a particular model.

I don't think so; the whole show is rigged for entertainment. It's meaningless as a factual guide to anything.

If I was spending 50k+ I would do some real due diligence :)

[DERG]

Only had one decent car on there to date new Mustang :8

[beany]

However, a little bit of me says everyone knows the car always wins, even the plebs.Didn't Tom Cassells beat the Radical SR3, in his CAP 232?

[Evanelpus]

If I was spending 50k+ I would do some real due diligence

I did say 'may'

[M609]

The "crash" looked real enough. They landed on the undisturbed snow on the lake, and got into trouble once they got to the disturbed and rutted snow close to the lake shore.

The area disturbed by the combine was clearly compacted by snowmobiles prior to the aircraft landing (you can see the track patterns in the snow)


Looks like the pilot in LN-RAR cut magnetos once it started to go pear shaped.

[flybymike]

Bollox, I've done much better crashes than that without leaving a scratch on myself or the aircraft ;)

[toptobottom]

Hardly a crash IMO. Nothing that wasn't carefully planned I'm sure. Still - great ENTERTAINMENT, eh?! :ok:

[Piltdown Man]

Some people really need to have their medication altered. Top Gear is entertainment and it does a good job at that. You don't have to watch it but when you do, you know it will probably be insulting, rude and irreverent. Which is why many people watch. So, here we are talking about a plane crash that wasn't. It was done for the camera, the shots and angles were almost certainly planned in advance and I'll no doubt wager it was flown by a commercial pilot. Was the plane bent? I doubt it. Did the guy know what he was doing? I reckon so. Was it entertaining? On balance yes.

And 182 vs Veyron? Do the sums. They are not difficult. If you hop in a 182 in the south of France and go for the UK, you'd need about five to six hours to get to London. So given the weather, the 182 will always win. So if you start the "race" within six hours of sunset, the pilot will have to have a night rating to continue flying. To allow the Veyron to win, they put in a night stop. Hey, they could have had average English weather and not flown at all. Again, don't worry little people, this was entertainment and not a factual programme. The only bit that pissed me off was the constant wingeing by the Hamster - that was childish, truly worthy of a Sun/Mail/Express reader. But probably written by James May who knows how to wind people up. But there we are - that's life.

PM

[John Miller]

Nice one Mr P. Man - back to school though. Even at a modest cruise of 135 knots the 182 will do London in four hours from Milan. (well - if it's turbo'd I suppose as there are some big mountains in the way). Now where's my Daily Mirror? :) Geneva-London is three hours (in a straight line).

[BackPacker]

Even at a modest cruise of 135 knots the 182 will do London in four hours from Milan.

Ah, yes, but Captain Slows preflight took ages...:ok:

(At least, according to the Hamster.)

[Piltdown Man]

Mr Miller - For what its worth, I guessed five to six hours off the top of my head. Having looked at the route, as the crow flies, we are talking just over 470 nm. At 135 kts this gives a trip time of just under four hours. And as we are talking about a specific journey on Top Gear, we should really include the trip to the airport, planning and filing, pre-flight, the flight itself and then the trip from Biggin(?) to the Natwest Tower. So I reckon six hours was a reasonable guess. But do you really expect 135 kts groundspeed out of a 182? Some days yes but I'd suggest mostly no. Just out of interest, what do you reckon is the average wind over Europe at say 5,000'? And then there's the actual route that James May took. I think he took and excursion via Marseille and that would have given them approx. 700 track miles. So you can come and sit next to me at school and we'll pay more attention this time.

PM

[Captain Smithy]

What I don't understand is how anyone could begin to take TG seriously. All it is is a comedy show, and not a very funny one at that; a sad forlorn shadow of its former self as an excellent motoring programme. I take it for what it is, i.e. three grown men fannying about trying (and failing) to be funny, the motoring content is not even secondary anymore.

Smithy