Dayseemal...or Point?

[Bear Cub]

Quessy for you International chappies...and chappesses.

Is there any other Country than the USA that uses the word "point" rather than "day-see-mal" when giving radio frequencies on the R/T?

I don't mean "will they accept/understand it", I mean that the USA has filed an official International difference from ICAO - has anybody else?

Secondly...can anybody say why the use of "point" is either a good or a bad thing (relative to day-see-mal)?

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Hunting is bad!!
Support the right to arm Bears!!

[inverted flatspin]

Decimal or point who cares. Americans do not speak the Queens English but are very easy to understand. Radio communications are less formal in the land of the free and often a more efficent use of time.

[Bear Cub]

"Take Off or Departure"...who cares...other than the 600+ people who were killed in Tenerife.

R/T is a well defined language that is designed to work if used properly.

The actual point of the thread was some research I am doing for a project...not a slag at the American phraseology.

I suspect that you just might generate an interesting thread with your lack of concern for standardisation though.

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Hunting is bad!!
Support the right to arm Bears!!

[Tinstaafl]

I prefer the use of 'point'. Shorter & easier to understand.

But then I don't have much input into ICAO.

[Bear Cub]

Tin...I think you are right - I agree...but there is probably some reason that ICAO don't like it....otherwise we'd all be saying it.

Still, we are detracting from the original question....does anybody else use the word.

It's not an attack on phraseology....it's just homework. I don't want to tell people that "ONLY" the USA says it..if it's not correct. That's all.

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Hunting is bad!!
Support the right to arm Bears!!

[Meeb]

The word is Decimal, your spelling is the way it is pronounced. The word point is a problem in that it is used in other contexts. Descent point, holding point to name but 2.

Decimal is used in the UK and Australia, but the USA uses point, I have found no trouble with the use of it in the USA, but for the UK it really has to be decimal. There will be many other countries using point, those who work closely with the FAA I would guess.

As you say Bear Cub, standardisation is what it ia all about. UK R/T is well known as being the most concise and understandable and professional way of communicating, therefore pretty strict rules are required.

PS I am a Radiotelephony examiner.

[Squawk 8888]

Here in the Great White North we're supposed to say "decimal" but damn near everyone says "point".

[Pom Pax]

Gd Dai

The Man at Work Down Under definately said daysimul whilst I was enjoying a flight deck visit the other night southbound somewhere near Christmas Island.

[This message has been edited by Pom Pax (edited 22 December 2000).]

[Code Blue]

DECIMAL

Standardised R/T is crucial to safety, particularly where crews' first language isn't English.

If in doubt read Steven Cushing's "Fatal Words" (Univ of Chicago Press 1997)

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[Spearing Britney]

IFS - American R/T easy to understand, well mostly but a more efficient use of time??? NO WAY!

If you mean for the ATCO's chatting about their new SUV's over the airwaves whilst at work maybe!! Otherwise give me a break!! Listen out at Heathrow once and you won't hold that view any more...

Anyway I certainly don't mean to yank bash - I love flying there - but time efficiency isn't something I find in their R/T unless you mean replying 'copied' to a long and complicated clearance which is a time efficiency air safety could well do without...

That book Code Blue recommends is indeed will worth a look, find it at www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0226132013/202-2053294-0990251 (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0226132013/202-2053294-0990251)

Happy flying
Happy Xmas (Happy holiday for the PC efficient yanks ;) )
Happy New Year

PS 'Day-see-mal' for me most of the time, I'm trying to make it all of time but the flesh is weak...

[This message has been edited by Spearing Britney (edited 23 December 2000).]

[CaptainSquelch]

Bear Cub,

Is it good or bad with nothing in between?

I've been flying around Europe for about a week since I first read this thread and I've been listening. It appears to me that in our skies we mainly do not use either. The "point" is hardly ever used and "decimal" something like one out of three times. "Change Maastricht One Three Three Six Five Five". No "Channel" and No "Decimal"

Still it bugs me less than "Cleared down to nine zero". A wrong freq is generally not much of a problem. Switch back again - ask again - try again. Headings, flightlevels, altitudes, speeds and especially take-off can really ruin your day.

It really sounds like the average FS2000 pilot trying to fly a real plane.

To get back to your original question Bear Cub. I think it is a bad thing but there are so many much worse things.

See, even good and bad are relative.
- Hunting is bad ... unless you are shooting a pest.
- Arming bears is good until they learn to shoot.
- A good girl is OK, a bad girl is better.

Sq

[Bear Cub]

Squelch...thanks for the research.

Couple of points to make though....

Firstly the "is it a bad thing" question was an attempt to find out if anyone thought there was a potential for conflict of words...as in your own example of "cleared down to nine zero".

I certainly did not mean it as a search for people to criticise the Americans (I can do that on my own <grin> ).

The word "decimal" - especially with the phonetic pronunciation is so clear and unambiguous...but a potential pain in the a**e. "Point" seems equally clear...so why don't the Europeans like it enough to use it? The FAA has filed a deliberate notification of change...they have said "we WILL use 'point'"...I wondered is there a conflict phrase.

The whole point of the thing is just to find out if I can say to students/pilots/enthusiasts/airline passengers (in conversation) that the USA uses the word point but the rest of the world says decimal. I didn't want to state it as fact if it isn't strictly true (a "point" that some other ppruners may like to take on board).

Other thing to mention....having read your signature block is that even the pests are here for a reason...and who has the authority to label them as pests anyway?

The main thing, though, is that the bears will only shoot back in self defence. They wont do it for "sport".

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Hunting is bad!!
Support the right to arm Bears!!

[CaptainSquelch]

And the girl?

[Bear Cub]

Ooooh, errrrr, matron.....any girls are good - especially if they are bad.

Still like the bears though....if all else fails you...REMEMBER...the best things in life are furry.

(Argue with that!!).

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Hunting is bad!!
Support the right to arm Bears!!

[CaptainSquelch]

Right Bear cub, we seem to agree. Furry but at least decently trimmed.

Sq

[scanscanscan]

`We all agree,Worldwide ATC instructions must be brief, clear, and free of double meaning.They are not, and they are getting worse,because nobody gives a damn who has authority to change things.
The use of point vv decimal IMHO saves several brain channels of effort and reduces readback and selection errors under pressure, especially in newly hired pilots operating in new high density ATC areas, and in older tired high time pilots like I,who had lost some of their fine hearing to the roar of the DC3,the screams of the RR darts,and the large jets engines on the ramps around the world. All of this combined with the constant use of HF radio in Africa, India, and the Far East all takes a tole.
Certain ATC areas issue a rapid three or four part insruction to a tired crew doing 5 to 8 miles a minute and before the pilot reads this back they also ask for the number of soles on board and the aircraft registration, this easily overloads a two man crew in a new area and in a descent at night, requireing a clear order of priorities from the crew, ie confirm/set Qnh and altitude and MSA check and was that to five zero zero or 2500?(even the Airbus company telex got that wrong in the GF072 recorder readout) Fate is indeed the Hunter and moreso in todays cost effective climate of more for less and quicker, once retired and off the treadmill of max duty min rest rosters, it can be clearly seen the future direction of the body counts is upwards.All large jet Pilots should be even more safety aware and risk averse in the comeing year, because frankly nobody managing or regulating this industry really cares if you kill yourselfe or your passengers,just about their compensation package,pension, perks and kick backs.Make an error, kill some pax and you spend time in jail or wake up in hospital chained to the bed and your copilot similarly chained in a seperate ward.The Hunter has changed his methods but he is even more dangerous now than thirty years ago.Take care!!

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We will do the drill according to the amendments to the amendments I er think?