Odly enough, I have not seen a thread to mark this momentous occasion

[NutLoose]

So I have copied it over here.

Farewell navigator . . (http://www.rin.org.uk/news.aspx?ID=65&SectionID=23&ItemID=1323)


Farewell navigator . . 18/02/2011


http://www.rin.org.uk/uploadedimages/BrevetLow.jpg Training of navigators in the RAF ceased forever today as the 3 last students graduated at RAF Cranwell.

The graduates - Flight Lieutenants Sam Baker, James Lamb and Helena Phillips - were presented with their Weapon Systems Officer (WSO) brevets by the RAF's most senior operational commander, Air Chief Marshal Sir Simon Bryant, Commander-in-Chief Air Command and the most senior navigator the RAF has seen.

All 3 will now move to RAF Leeming to finish training on Hawks before moving on to the Tornado GR4 bomber.

The navigators' 'N' brevet changed to the illustrated 'WSO' one in 2003, when the navigator and air electronic officer branches amalgamated. Prior to 'N' it was the 'O' observers' brevet until 1942.

The Station Commander explained at the ceremony that, in the very early days, aircrew sewed a sixpenny piece behind their brevets to make them stand out, and in a very nice touch, Flight Lieutenant Harry Hughes DFC DFM - an 89-year-old navigator who survived 76 operations in WWII - presented each of the graduates with a sixpenny (well, actually 5p . .) piece.

The Institute's Navigation Trophy - for achieving the highest overall standard of air navigation, academic studies and personal qualities - went to Sam Baker. Past-Director, Group Captain David Broughton, represented the Institute at the ceremony and offered a period of Guest membersip to the graduates.

So 25-year-old Helena Phillips BEng Hons has become the last ever person to graduate as a RAF navigator . . a poignant reminder of changing times . .

The Institute is hoping to run a half-day event to commemorate the passing of the RAF navigator - provisionally planned for 27 June in the RAF Club. Watch this space for further details.

[minigundiplomat]

20 years too late, some might say?

[Geehovah]

I can safely say I never thought I'd see the day:(

And I'll ignore the previous inane comment

[Wander00]

As a member of RIN, congratulations to these graduands.

[green granite]

Agreed wander00, but also as a member of RIN I'm concerned what happens say 20 years down the line in a real war if the enemy trashes satnav. Tankers wont be able to find the rendezvous point, maritime searches get lost etc. or is there a contingency plan?

[High_Expect]

Errr.... Yeah, they're called INS and his mate Laser Ring Gyro.

[MG]

Sad times but inevitable, much like MGD's continual juvenility!

[Phoney Tony]

Simple questions.

What happens when GPS is denied?

Is pilot MDR good enough?

[green granite]

Errr.... Yeah, they're called INS and his mate l@ser Ring Gyro.

Can a pilot fly the aircraft, keep a look out all round the aircraft for survivors and set up a square search on an INS? Seems a very high work load.

[MG]

I think it would be, it's a bit patronising to suggest otherwise. Sadly, most navigators these days would struggle to go back to basics as they don't have the depth of training to fall back on. Couple that with the fact that rev-nav is right at the bottom of things to do once you've achieved all of the other BTRs. I'm speaking from a predominently RW background so I might be incorrect for FJ these days.

[Justanopinion]

GR7 Pre GPS seemed to manage with just INS and that wasn't a ring laser gyro.

Congrats to the last graduates.

[cazatou]

Odd that nobody has commented on the Rank escalation. Looking at my first log book I see that in December 1967 I flew with three different Plt Off Navigators and one Sgt Navigator on my OCU Course. I didn't get to Flt Lt until I was at CFS having served on 2 Squadrons.

PS You had to pass the "B" exam to get to Flt Lt in those days.

[Finningley Boy]

So... am I to assume that there are no more ab initio trainees for the Tornado Force to be expected?:confused::uhoh:

FB:)

[Biggus]

g g

Two points.

Firstly, as a member of the RIN I'm sure you are aware that modern navigation systems for aircraft are often a GPS/IN mix, i.e. they combine a GPS and IN system. While the GPS is working it is the primary source of navigation data. If the GPS falls over then the IN is ready to take over. However, it gets better....

If the GPS and IN have had the chance to run in tandem for any length of time then the IN has had a chance to assess its errors, accelerometer bias, etc. As a result, if the GPS becomes unavailable for some reason (e.g. failure, jamming, satellites shot down, etc) what is left is not just an IN, but effectively a "super IN", with much better performance, reduced error growth, etc.


Secondly, any decent navigation system should allow a (presumably expanding?) square search to be set up with only a few button pushes, and would probably automatically fly the aircraft around it. While setting up the search the pilot might well be eyes in, but then the actual search hasn't started yet.....




By the way, I'm a nav, and can accept that technology is now capable of doing most of the tasks that I used to do while flying.....


P.S

F B - As the Tornado fleet probably has less than 10 years of life left, and will gradually draw down during that period, one would like to think that someone has done the sums and worked out that we have enough GR4 navs left in the system to last until then...... Don't hold your breath!!

[Wander00]

GG - I was not making a philosophical point, merely congratulating the "last" of the WSOs to qualify. Philosophocally, I am appalled at the state to which the Royal Air Force, to which I have been attached in one way or another since the age of 13, is being downsized, emasculated, pared to the bone, or whichever other expression one might prefer. As the Falklands and Gulf 1 showed, it does not take much of a reduction in force size to make effective intervention impossible - in both of those we got away by the skin of our teeth - and just after we have SDSR we have the Middle East imploding ...watch this space!

[green granite]

Yes I can accept the INS is a solution, I tend to be an ancient sceptic on 'new fangled technology' as far as nav work is concerned, never grew out of the sextant era really mainly because in those days it tended to be unreliable. :(

[BEagle]

You must work for the CAA!

They still seem to be stuck in the astrolabe, quadrant staff and lodestone era of navigation.....:rolleyes:

[Robert Cooper]

And what's wrong with that? :(

[Samuel]

Number 14 Sqn RNZAF [CanberraB12], once had a Nav as Boss, and he later became CAS, the first of his breed to ever achieve that position, and he was ex-RAF.

[EW73]

Yeah...my experience as well..from an Australian ex P3C flyer!
Whilst based in Fiji flying for Air Pacific some years ago, (pre first military coupe!), I found out there was a 10 Squadron P3 overnighting in town on their way to RIMPAC.

So naturally I went down to the local airport hotel to meet up and say Hi to any guys I knew in the crew.

Well, it turns out that 'one of the navs' and others I did know from my past days in the P3 Maritime world.

After a few drinks, I was very surprised to find that the nav I was talking old times with, was actually now the CO of the squadron...you could have knocked me over with a...well, never mind...I remembered him as a Pilot Officer Nav...how time flies, errr well, you know what I mean!
Up till then I always assumed that COs of flying squadrons would always be a pilot, as it had always been.

That was around 2001, then, in 2008 at the celebrations of 40 years of P3s in the RAAF, I met that nav again, now he is the Group Captain in command of the Maritime Strike Group.

So don't tell me that navs have a dead-end job! :D

[Geehovah]

The irony that hasn't been mentioned is that it must be slightly sad for Simon Bryant to have closed down his own Branch!

[maxburner]

High Expect, you don't know much about IMS and RLG, do you?

[brakedwell]

INS, IRS or GPS can't buy the next round :{

I remember losing the signaller, then the Nav and finally the Flight Engineer.

[xenolith]

MGD et al........... dont be so cruel.

Lets face it, they've been dead for some time, now they have to lie down.

RIP the Navs.

[Geehovah]

UCAV enters service........The Chief of the Air Staff closes down pilot training....................

Easy Jet introduces pilotless cockpits............

It could never happen Beecham!

Don't spoil a thread that marks a significant event for many of us.:=

[Brian 48nav]

Blimey Biggus, after your 'woosey' reply to my cycling suggestion I had given up on you!
Now I find you are a member of the good-looking,beer-buying intelligentsia!

You must be a top man after all!

Brian Wildey

PS Hope there will be some navs at the 48 reunion in May.

[aeroid]

Maybe it is because I am very old but I do not seem to find any mention of SODCATS, a very special association for Navs. Any other old timers out there?

[Brian 48nav]

Maybe my memory is playing tricks but IIRC that phrase was started by us younger navs on the Herc in the early 70s.

[iRaven]

Geehovah

http://generation-g.net/gblog/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/nails-in-head.jpeg

Your posts reference UCAV, RPAS, UAS is definately a "nail and head" moment.

I suspect that WSO/WSOps will still have roles to play for some time yet; it's just that we don't need to train any at the moment and that rear-crew trg on 55 Sqn is finished (and we don't know yet what MFTS is going to deliver). I suspect that small numbers of WSOs and WSOps will start to trickle in a few years time at RNAS Culdrose alongside the Observers prior to starting RAF OCUs - small numbers, mind, for Sentry, RIVET JOINT, Reaper (or SCAVENGER), Shadow, Taranis (or whatever that might turn into) and maybe if a LRMPA comes along.

By the way, in recent years, the majority of Navs in the RAF have been doing more Weapons Systems/RADAR manipulation than Navigation - Tornado GR1/4, Tornado F3, Reaper and Nimrod. The Navigation piece, as so many have pointed out, is but a tertiary distraction to the majority of Navs/WSOs these days!

iRaven

[cazatou]

Brian 48Nav

At our age memory becomes a fickle thing - but I seem to remember that the "Society of Directional Consultants & Allied Trades" was around in the late 1960's.

[henry crun]

To go back before the late 1960's, does anyone remember the WNU ?

[London Eye]

I certainly can't remember several Nav's Union Dinners - Brandy Sours, Kokinelli and then Filfar was a pretty potent mix :uhoh:.

[aeroid]

..... not to mention the late 60's. (WR)

[67Wing]

I would like to record my unending admiration and respect for the RAF navigator community, and that's as someone with as much time single-seat as two-seat. To fly in the back of a GR4 (it was GR1s in my time) on an operational sortie takes considerable bravery and balls. I was never that happy being thrown around in the back-seat of a Tornado as a QWI on a peacetime sortie. We had people navigating in the back of Tornados on low-level night attacks against heavily defended airfields in near IMC and often with the TFR decoupled from the autopilot to prevent pull-ups into SAMs and AAA. As a pilot it was more or less OK as we had our destiny in our own hands. The navs just had to ride it out and hope for the best, night after night. None ever complained and we probably took them for granted. I felt honoured to get a glimpse of what navigators did for the RAF on just a few operations. Taking the history of the RAF as a whole, we all owe them a great debt. I take my hat off to you all.
Signed,
A grateful pilot.

[MG]

A rare thing, to read something moving on Pprune. Thank you.

[Geehovah]

67 Wing

I'm sure many Navs will thank you for your honesty and for avoiding any cheap shots at this moment in RAF "history"

I'd buy you a beer!!!

[ExAscoteer]

I agree wholeheartedly with 67Wing.

While there may have been banter between The Twin-Winged Master Race and members of SODCAT, having been involved with Nav training (as a Dominie Staff Pilot) and seeing the dedication and effort put in by both Staff Navs and studes, having been a member of a multi-crew Flight-Deck and been pulled out of the poo by the Nav numerous times (eg when a former Soviet State ATC tried to descend us IMC into high ground during a CFE Treaty flight), I have nothing but admiration and respect for my single winged colleagues.

A sad day indeed.


(I'll still take the piss though. :) )

[High_Expect]

No, you are correct I don't know a lot about them. Just how to turn it on. Luckily I don't have to build them.

To be fair good Navs were worth their weight in gold! Had a blast flying with most of them. The old adage 'I'd rather have the fuel' was just an outright lie..... most of the time. ;-)

Good luck to the last few guys through.