East Anglian Air Ambulance temporarily grounded/Longmint status

[Independent Observer]

As a (now) independent observer, this is my first post. Having suffered at the hands of this bunch two years ago, I just wonder if any-one has given a thought to the fact that the Directors of Rats Inc are not as incompetent as people are alluding, but very cold, calculating people who have no thought or feelings for staff. Their track record is littered with closure of companies, leaving people in a mess and onlookers wondering where all the money went. Could this be part of a master plan?

[ExMAGE]

Independent

You are not the first to raise this spectre. Despite what we think of the "family" there is no doubt that they are clever enough to amass a large amount of money and several companies. They must be convincing to get banks to keep giving them the money (no need to comment about the intellegence of the banks:*)

No doubt they are doing what they can to keep everythng going. However you must wonder what this has done to the reputation/ future prospects of the individual companies. Each was a well established and well run organisation, each was well respected and each had personel that were trusted. Hopefully they will be able to rise above this mess once the dust has settled.

I see this issue is now getting larger circulation due to the paraphrasing on Helihub website.

[Independent Observer]

ExMage - absolutley right. The whole setup must be like a spiders web and the only reason they keep going is because of the fog of confusion their dealings have created. They have companies and sub-companies and buy/sell/ exchange assets and liabilties across them all. Pity the people (auditors) who have to pick the pieces - it's a web (of deceipt?) and will take years to unravel.

They leave behind them a wake of despair, wrecked careers and people's lives in total disarray.

I really feel for the ones at the coal face, not knowing which way to jump. I only hope they are able to recover their lives from this disgraceful event.

[996]

IO - interesting first post there Richard, I bumped into an old buddy a number of weeks ago who has some experiences of the 'minge' and he proffered almost the exact same scenario that you have. I wonder if we know the same people. Be careful mate, the person I refer to is known to and has a credible track record of, exacting retribution on those who offend. Just a friendly caution.

[F.A.TAlbert]

Ex Maggie: future prospects of the individual companies. Each was a well established and well run organisation, each was well respected and each had personel that were trusted. Without question IMHO

Hopefully they will be able to rise above this mess once the dust has settled. I am sure that we all hope that will be the case and there is the potential for that provided that the quality personnel remain in sittu but I sincerely doubt that will be the case. There is a large mushroom cloud hanging overhead, I do not think it will end well. The fickle industry is not disposed for forgiving. :{

[whodictus]

F.A.Talbert
There is one easy solution Longmint go! Gerry Hermer comes out of retirment and takes over again, staff would return, contracts would return and that would be down to trust and respect, not words used to desribe the current senior managment, just pay people you B******s

[F.A.TAlbert]

WhoDickedUs - I agree entirely, Gerry was a 'gentleman' of the 'old school' who understood the meaning of the word HONOUR and as such whether you liked the man or not, you could not fault his even handed conduct. Sadly there are very few left of his diameter and though his retirement is well deserved one cannot help feeling that he should take advantage of the newly announced legislation. GH engendered loyalty within his staff and that fact is self evident even now. Such a legacy - the people who call themselves Longmint could learn a few tips but hey........that is just wishful thinking and pure fantasy. I doubt they can understand the concept of Honour. Clearly their antics over the last 20 years or more have shown that to be true.

[F.A.TAlbert]

UK: Longmint Aviation on brink of collapse (http://www.helihub.com/2011/04/07/uk-longmint-aviation-on-brink-of-collapse/)

Total Air Management Services – previously at Shoreham and believed merged into Fast Helicopters.
Skydrift – a fixed wing operator at Norwich

There have been a number of issues surrounding these companies, and the current cashflow (or lack thereof) is of crucial concern to the group’s employees. The monthly salary payment date was moved from 31 March to 6 April, and yesterday brought the now-usual monthly concerns which have been affecting them for many months. In anonymous (and unverified) postings on an online forum last night, the employees fell into three categories

Resigned and left for another job – paid nothing
Resigned, giving the required notice – told they could go immediately and be paid in full, but were not paid for some (or all) of their notice period
All others were “not paid properly”, implying not as much as they should have been.

If the employees do not turn up for work, Longmint is assuming that they have chosen to leave – which under UK law means that the Government does not pay unemployment benefit for the first six months. So the employees might as well stay put and take the Government benefits when the company fails, as observers expect. HeliHub.com cannot imagine the personal dilemma this puts employees in.

Other aspects of the situation of this group of companies is as follows

Alan Mann Helicopters lost its operating licence in July 2010 and did not get it back until February 2011 (see HeliHub.com story). This would mean that the company made zero money from chartering helicopters during that time.
Sterling Helicopters lost its operating licence in February 2011 after key personnel left and they were unable to meet the UK CAA requirements by replacing them with suitably qualified individuals. This has put serious pressure on the company to pay leases/loans on the contracted aircraft when not receiving monies on the contracts they were then unable to fulfil:-
East Anglian Air Ambulance with two BK117s – Service has been taken over by Bond Air Services as an interim measure (see HeliHub.com story)
Norfolk Police did not intend renewing their contact for one AS355 anyway (see HeliHub.com story)
National Grid Transco had three contacts with Sterling with Bell 206s which have since been passed to other operators as an interim measure pending putting them back out to formal tender.
Other ad-hoc work would have been routinely undertaken – Sterling frequently supplied a helicopter or two for aerial filming of sporting events.
Total Air Management Service won the National Grid Transco contract some years back wtih Schweizer 333s but had various problems with them and

HeliHub.com has attempted to contact Mr Neil Bellis, CEO of Longmint, for an interview but without his response. The company is owned and run Mr Bellis, his wife Juliet and her sister Lucy Cummings. The three live together in a very large house quoted some years back by the Sunday Times as being worth £5.3 Million, although the recession has probably knocked a third off that in the interim. All three, and Cummings’ brother Nick (who runs Alan Mann Helicopters but has no shares) previously all worked together at a property services company called Erinaceous Group plc. We invite readers to check out this link and take your own conclusions, while noting that the publicly quoted company suffered a “share price collapse” and the resignation from directorships of these three people being forced upon them by shareholders.

The Longmint group of companies also includes the prestigious Newick Park Hotel, as well as other property assets.

The same people were also involved in the purchases of Shoreham and Fairoaks Airports in 2007-08 though a company owned by Albermarle Syndicates. As part of the purchase process, Mr Bellis apparently promised to fund a helicopter training scholarship for a year in an attempt to be seen as philanthropic. However, as soon as the purchase went through, HeliHub.com understands that the scholarship fund received no further payments and the airport purchaser denied any deal existed. Fortunately the scholarship candidate was known to someone else in the industry who put up the cash to ensure their licence was achieved.

Further controversy surrounded the sale of Fairoaks Airport. Previously owned by Alan Mann, this idyllic Surrey airfield also included a number of aviation companies, from the eponymous helicopter operator mentioned above to fixed wing maintenance, avionics and so on. In an unusual move, the £42 million deal price was allegedly split into £1 (one pound) being paid by Longmint for the operating companies and the balance by Albermarle Syndicates company Albermarle Fairoaks Airport LLP

HeliHub.com would welcome a statement from Longmint on the current situation which we will be happy to run on this website.

[Nitram]

IO
Surely you are not sugesting asset stripping

[jonwilson]

If anyone out there training within one of the Longmint owned companies that has money on account then perhaps it would be prudent to get it out pretty quickly or use it up.

You never know they may survive to see another day/week/month but better to be safe than sorry.

It's not the first time this has happened and it won't be the last. Remember if you have money on account and it all goes belly up then getting it back will be virtually impossible.

[500e]

jonwilson
Surely no one pays loads of money up front after Silver State fiasco :E

[Whirlygig]

Offering discounts for block-booking in advance was never Sterling's style. But there are still local PPL students, half way through a course who now have nowhere local to complete it - the nearest Schweizer being Leicester. Those students have still invested a lot of money and time so far.

There is one easy solution Longmint go! Gerry Hermer comes out of retirment and takes over againWould that it were that simple. Much as I'd love to see GH at the helm again, there is still the small matter of the multi-million Euro mortgages raised in Sterling Helicopters Ltd's name which will still need to be paid.

What Sterling does need though is a White Knight to come and buy them for £1 and inject the cash to pay off the loans.

Cheers

Whirls

[F.A.TAlbert]

Whirls - A White Knight? Perhaps that is the only way that it will survive but I have difficulty in believing anyone would want to buy and settle the debt. The debt alone must be way more than the company is now capable of earning. It seems that all the contracts have gone and little chance of return and after everything that has happened together with their history, who would be silly enough to offer anything substantial? Still you never know............

[Independent Observer]

Nitram - asset stripping? The thought hadn't crossed my mind! However, history does have a habit of repeating itself.

[ExMAGE]

Did any one answer Nightowls question?
Does anyone know if Longmint paid their staff today? :confused:

I assume they all got paid or we would have heard by now?

How is that Statutory Demand going?

[F.A.TAlbert]

ExMAGE - rumour has it that as before on other occasions, some got paid and some did not. Those that did may not have received the full payment they were expecting. As for SD's and WUO's - well these are still ongoing and from what I have heard, there are more in the pipeline. One can only wonder where the loot is coming from but most likely from the Directors Fund which according to last years report, was very very healthy for each of those named.

[foxmead]

F.A.Talbert

From the feedback to my earlier threads ref my nephews intention to do the FI course, he is looking at other options. Understandably he is not prepared to take a chance whereby he is wondering if the company will survive whilst he is completing the course!!!

Whilst there are lots of rumours as to what is going on this cannot be good for the personnel within the group who are trying to do their jobs and provide their customers and prospective new students with the confidence that things are ok. I dont know any of the staff who work within the group but dealing with negativity about your employer cannot be easy, its the old story of BAD news like mud sticks.

[F.A.TAlbert]

Foxmead - I agree but the issues of concern and the causes for that concern are well documented in this and other related threads. Under that weight of historic event it is not hard to see why reaction is what it is. For the majority it is a simple case of guilt by association. [With the Directors]

[996]

foxmead From the feedback to my earlier threads ref my nephews intention to do the FI course, he is looking at other options. Understandably he is not prepared to take a chance whereby he is wondering if the company will survive whilst he is completing the course!!!

A wise descision IMO there are a number of good reputable companies out there with good quality staff. There is no need to take a risk, no matter how small. I wish your nephew luck.

[Danscowpie]

What Sterling does need though is a White Knight to come and buy them for £1 and inject the cash to pay off the loans.

No it doesn't.

What needs to be done is the complete closure of Sterling, no "White Knight" or any saviour.
Get rid of all existing management, especially those who helped keep "Tabs" on things and those who have been in situ since Longmint took over but were too weak to challenge the way things were done.

If this happens, there's a company about 150m south of them who are more than capable of taking on the staff who know what they're doing and winning back the contracts that matter.

If it comes to that, perhaps they should be running the whole airport, which I know they've considered in the past, but the owner is too savy to waste his money in that respect.:E

[bladegrabber]

Does anyone know whats happening with the 300cbi at Sterling ? I was using it occasionally on a self fly hire basis but not sure if its still available?

Thanks
BG

[Whirlygig]

Last I heard BG, was that it was still in bits on the hangar floor. Technically, the Schweizer was never on Sterling's AOC but I'm not sure whether that means it can still be legally used.

Cheers

Whirls

[Independent Observer]

DCP - Sadly, I think every-one who believes that a white knight will appear needs a serious reality check. The contracts are gone and will only come back round again at the end of their cycle. No company in their right mind will offer a contract to a body trying to resurrect what was Sterling after being tainted by Longmint. By that time, Sterling will be confined to the annals of history and GH's excellent reputation long gone. Many of the worthwhile aircraft have been transferred elsewhere within the LM crumbling and diminishing empire and, knowing what happened at TAMS, the offices and hangar will soon start to be cleared out and disposed of. 'Ere long, there will be no evidence of Sterling ever having been an operator at Norwich.

Sad, but that's what you get with Directors who are bean-counters and not aviators. :=

[Whirlygig]

Sad, but that's what you get with Directors who are bean-counters and not aviators.Excuse me IO, but I'll think you'll find those directors are NOT bean-counters but lawyers. Please don't tar your friendly accountant with THAT same brush. :uhoh:

Cheers

Whirls

[TeeS]

Funniest line I heard last year - the film Bee Movie where the mosquito is asked "Oh, so are you a Lawyer now too?" He replies "Well, I was already a blood sucking parasite, all I needed was a briefcase!" LMAO

Sorry it's off topic.

TeeS

P.S. Apologies to FL

[Danscowpie]

Whirls has got it right, and perhaps I was a little insensitive.

We tend to forget that whatever the outcome, it's the fault of arrogant speculators not the people on the ground who had to put up with the way the company has been run at top level.
That said, I maintain that there are certain people at a management level who could have stood up and be counted, but instead they've chosen to slink away and keep their heads down in the sewers.

They know who they are, so do I, as probably do you.
I don't know how they sleep at night.

[Independent Observer]

Whirls - sorry if you were offended, that was not the intention. I am fully aware of the background of the Directors, it doesn't change the fact that they pay more heed to the P&L, not the honest hard-working guys and gals at the coal face. Neither are the two main protagomists genuine aviators, trashing people's careers and lives in their quest for financial betterment.

I think that time will show what LM's intentions were, although their teflon coating will allow them to wriggle free again, unscathed.

[ExMAGE]

Isn't interesting that a company wanting to setup an AOC or FTO has to demonstrate that it is financially sound. However, when an established company/companies fails to pay its employees (6 months now?) and I am assuming not paying suppliers and aircraft owners, the CAA don't seem to care? Surely financial (mis)handling at this level should be worthy of a winding up order.

BTW is everyone paid in full for March?

Any rumors of anyone else leaving?

EM

[foxmead]

Anyone know how the current situation affects Longmints operations at Fairoaks & Shoreham?

[nightowl59]

ExMAGE

Rumour has it that yet again not everyone has been paid and those that did only received a percentage of what was due :{

[996]

foxmead - if there is no discernable effect at present [and I doubt that] then I'd wager it won't be long before the fallout reaches them. It is but a matter of time only. As already mentioned, the same inept bunch govern the lot and they clearly have no ability to improve in any measurable way. :sad:

[foxmead]

996, Thanks for the reply. It really does sound like a can of worms........

[212man]

that they pay more heed to the P&L

Well, if they are going down the tube, it looks like they didn't pay much attention to that either! :confused:

[Ackers Caffer]

foxmead & 996,
I believe that there is a 'no-fly zone' in effect at Fairoaks for aircraft wanting to visit LM companies based there.

[996]

AC - lol who would want to?:ugh:

[Ackers Caffer]

996,

The few remaining clients who (used to) fly in to have their maintenance done by Mann's.

AC

[vfr440]

A sort of 'Hotel California' situation then? :ouch: - VFR

[Baggywrinkles]

AC
You are obvously at the coal face do you think this is bad management across the whole group or are Longmint try to close parts of the comany down and transfer as much as possibly under one hat
BW

[Ackers Caffer]

BW
Mis-management is about right. On your second point - a glance at CAA's G-INFO site will tell you that a lot of aircraft previously registered to FAST and/or Sterling are now registered to Alan Mann Aviation Group based at Shoreham. Why I wonder? :confused:
AC

[ExMAGE]

Baggy

I doubt they were intending to close anything. Sterling was the only part of the group that had any decent contracts and they've screwed them up. They do seem to be consolidating, probably in hope of hiding past mistakes and getting more money(mortgages).

Is Sterling still going or have they been closed?

AC
I have heard before that there is a long running battle between the airfield and Longmint. Stories of Baliffs and refusing fuel are around. The "no fly" zone is an interesting development though.

The group are renowned for being bad payers, I do wonder whether aircraft owners know this or are they being paid on time!

[foxmead]

Recieved a text from my nephew this afternoon, and for what it is worth the only school not to reply to his course enquiry was Fast, so guess what, he is spending his cash elsewhere!!!

[Rigga]

If I read this thread right the "last throws" seem to have happened - we're just watching and waiting for the pulse line to flatten now...?

I've never seen such a spectacular and despicable drop from grace before.

[Phil Space]

Not good news for the airport management who are firefighting on other fronts.
The helicopter operation they thought they could take from North Denes is not going to happen and commercial passenger numbers have taken a dive.

Norwich is going through the same problems as Cardiff. Big management with big ideas and falling passenger footfall.

The 'Airport Development Fee' tax was the final straw.

Some empty space in the next few weeks when Longmint can't pay.

[lynx no more]

I'm suprised the CAA havent got more powers to stop this sort of thing?

Cant believe whats happened to Sterling, as Gerry was a gentleman when he ran the show.

[996]

foxmead the only school not to reply to his course enquiry was Fast,

I'd have laid money on that being the case FM, it does not surprise me. A wise decision - best of luck to yer nephew.

[ExMAGE]

Oddly I would have thought they would have jumped at that. I know of someone that did the FAST FI course last year and was really pleased with cost and quality. If they are dropping the ball like this then there is little hope.

When I enquired with them about a course, albeit early last year. they were very quick to reply.

Foxmead

Good luck to your nephew

[PEASACAKE]

Lynx No More

CAA....Powers......Oxymoron

[996]

Oxymoron ?? is that a moronic person/persons that thieve oxygen?:p

[996]

ExMAGE I'd have thought so too. But as you say, that was last year and since then a lot has happened in the group. For a start I think LM have severely damaged their credability financialy. Being slow payers is one thing and there are a lot of those about but I heard that some perople were left waiting for simply ages before geting what was owed. That sittuation has been going on for a few years not just recently. Could be they have changed the group name to off-set that bad press but if so its a rather tatty attempt at camouflage. Just about everyone in the industry or conected with it must be aware of their [the tree 'wise monkeys'?] connections with all that has gone sour

[Bilbo Bagover]

Just heard a 109 trying to go to Alan Manns for engineering being refused permission to land at Fairoaks. Anyone know what's going on?

[Ackers Caffer]

BB

See post 284 - LM aircraft are not allowed into Fairaoks if visiting Alan Mann / Mann Aviation. Ongoing financial dispute allegedly.

[OvertHawk]

Not just Longmint aircraft - apparently any customer of a Longmint Co. is being refused. Hope it takes them down soon to allow someone to pick up the pieces. Sincere sympathy to all the honest hard working folk who've been dicked by these :mad: criminals! :(

[Pandalet]

FWIW, my experience of FAST last year when picking a training org was pretty much as described by foxmead, so the lack of customer service has been happening in some form for well over 6 months now.

[ExMAGE]

I know that there has been some angst between Longmint/Alan Mann and Fairoak airport for a while, is this finally coming to a head?:D

It will be hard to hide this from owner/operators that want to go to manns.

However despite all the various rumors everything still seems to be plodding along. Did the legal action at Sterling ever actually happen.

Longmint seem to get round these issues each time. will this be just another one of these?

Is there still a ban on movements associated with Alan Manns does it include FAST as well?

[F.A.TAlbert]

ExMAGE - go to the London Gazette search Notice 1344940 and your question is answered. :D

[Whirlygig]

Not quite sute why you're both applauding this news?

Cheers

Whirls

[theloudone]

Whirls.
It seems clear that some people thrive on others misfortune !

[ExMAGE]

FAT A - Interesting to see what happens in May.

Whirls and Loudone
Yes on the face of it it looks like we are enjoying someone's misery. However we have all now watched 3 very well respected companies being slowly destroyed by a group of non aviators. The misery here is not for the "poor" directors who may get taken to court and made bankrupt but the individuals in these companies that have suffered several months of uncertainty over pay and jobs; the lucky ones have already found employment elsewhere. There are people who have missed mortgage payments and faced big money issues due to the current situation. They have remained loyal to the companies, the owners know this and exploit them. Then there are the suppliers and aircraft owners who are also being treated in a shoddy manner and I imagine being told all will be fine but are losing money to the owners.

I do not want to see these companies put out of business but nor do i want to see them descend to a position where they have lost the reputation and become the joke of this industry. Again I imagine that there are many good people that would love to come in and bring them back to former glory.

So I am enjoying people's misery? See it as you will but I have friends that would be much better off if Longmint was no longer and that is what I would like to see.

[Qualityman]

Operational flying at Fairoaks is now back to normal. No restrictions in force.

[OvertHawk]

From my point of view, the sooner that Longmint finally comes to a sticky end, the better. It seems clear to me that those unfortunate folk stuck at the coal-face are not going to get any form of satisfaction from these unscrupulous opportunists, regardless of whether or not they manage to wriggle out of their current (self inflicted) difficulties. On that basis - the sooner that they fail completely, the sooner someone else will be able to step in and take on the premises, work and hopefully employees.

I'm truly saddened that companies with a reputation and history such as these have been destroyed by these people - it's a shame that tar and feathers have been removed from the list of powers held by the bankruptcy courts.

OH

[Baggywrinkles]

Hear Hear Overthawk
These fly by night money grabbers that come to our industry destroy lives and reputations and scare investors away should be hung out to dry. Aviation is all about integraty and there is a hell of a lot of it out. But not in this case these people must be smooth takers to be able to get raise money to buy companies time and time again, or is it because once you are on the round-a-bout with them it is difficult to get off

[996]

Hopefully, this action will see some success and one creditor gets the money that is owed. However, I wouldn't be surprised if all the assests have already been stripped and that there is no money in the company. What happens then? Are the Directors personally liable?

[Whirlygig]

This is about the legal entity known as Sterling Helicopters Ltd and that is the one which will suffer. The whole point of a Limited Company is that the liabilities are limited to that of the company itself and not the shareholders i.e. Longmint.

The shareholders and directors will not be liable for Sterling Helicopters Ltd's debts hence no applause from me.

The only time this would not be the case would be if it could be proved that the directors acted in a fraudulent manner.

In the event of a winding-up, then the preferential creditors will call in the mortgages on the aircraft.

Cheers

Whirls

[ExMAGE]

Whirls

No matter which way you cut it this is a grim situation. My "grin", as per emoticon label, was that the issues were directly with Longmint at Fairoaks not the court proceedings against Sterling and the potential that their comeuppance was on its way.

My dealings with Sterling were limited but I would not like to see them fall but sadly they have already lost their credibility due to the owners' actions. Sad indictment of the legal system that this situation can develop and the owners still profit whilst everyone else suffers.

[Baggywrinkles]

Whirls
So this means that Longmint directors can walk away as if nothing has happened, I hope not, if this is the case then the the law is an :mad: and they will do the same again to some one else
BW

[puntosaurus]

Oh please, grow up everybody. The owners of Sterling sold up to a bunch of cowboys. The owners cashed out and presumably got what they wanted. The cowboys undoubtedly sucked every last bit of cash out of what they bought. I'm heartbroken for the employees, but we should have no illusions. Anyone can do this, and the smart ones see this as an opportunity. There were good contracts in Sterling, and the smarter employees will have seen the opportunity to make money out of that. Capitalism is about ownership, and we live in a capitalist society.

[Whirlygig]

As I said, unless fraudulent trading can be proved, yes. Company directors do not get "punished" for simply being incompetent.

Earlier on this thread, I posted a link to the DTI (or whatever they're called these days) and the insolvency service. Those with an interest may wish to read it.

There were good contracts in Sterling, and the smarter employees will have seen the opportunity to make money out of that.Could you please expand on that? Other than salaries, I don't think any Sterling employees made any money; whether they saw opportunities or not.

Cheers

Whirls

[puntosaurus]

When contracts move, employees who are seen to be key to a smooth operation and have made a good impression will be sought after in the new arrangements. That should direct the activity of any employee. As should the desire to become an owner in order to control their destiny.

[996]

and the smart ones see this as an opportunity

Duh the smart ones saw this long before it became a reality.

[fluffy853]

Is it true that administrators are now running MAGE at Fairoaks?

The troubles where at MAGE long before Sterling, with bailiffs etc.

It's a shame what's happened to MAGE and Sterling, two great companies with great reputations.
It takes years to build reputations, months to destroy them!!
It will take a long time to rebuild them back up.
I hope something good comes out of the ashes for both companies.

Ackers Caffer, there's a name from the past!!!!!
The good old days, pre Hedgehogs!!!

What ever happened to Longmint Flier?

[996]

Fluffy: I am sure that LMF has realised [since he is in the know!] that there is little to be said in defence. That level of arrogance leaves a very real hole when trying to deal with people who do not want to play by your [LMF's] rules. In that area he was very badly equiped and probably realised that so I doubt he'd have the knuts to venture back for another trouncing. :mad:

[chevvron]

Just to reassure you, any problems of AMH will not affect Fairoaks Airport which is run by an entirely separate company.

[OvertHawk]

Just to clarify my understanding:

Fairoaks Airport is operated by a company completely separate from Longmint, but that operator leases the land from a Longmint Company (or at least a Company who's directors are the same as Longmint).

Is this correct or have i got it wrong.
OH

[chevvron]

It's all 'politics' to me so I don't get involved, but a company called 'Albemarle' is tied up in it somewhere (also Shoreham); that might be the one you're referring to.

[Whirlygig]

Shoreham Airport and Fairoaks are owned by a syndicate headed by Egan Property Asset Management Ltd (formerly Albermarle Property Asset Management Ltd). The Managing Director and principal shareholder is Geoff Egan who used to be a director of Erinacaeous Commercial Services Ltd (In Administration). Other directors of this Erinacaeous subsidiary are now directors of Egan PAM Ltd.

On paper there is no relationship between these owner/directors other than they used to work for a company under the same common ownership as Longmint and the Triumvirate! In reality, who knows? It could be another smoke & mirrors set up or there could be no love lost between them.

Cheers

Whirls

[Ackers Caffer]

There are 2 companies involved at Fairoaks - 'Albermarle Fairoaks Limited' and 'Albermarle Fairoaks Airport Limited.' One looks after the property and the other holds the licence to operate the airfield. Longmint has no connection with either.

Longmint, in the form of 'Mann Aviation Group (Engineering) Ltd' (MAGE), rents hangar and office space from 'Albermarle Fairoaks Ltd.' MAGE owns Alan Mann Helicopters (AMH)

I understand that in a recent case in the High Court, the Judge found in favour of Fairoaks in its dispute with MAGE. Debt, interest and costs amounting to almost £1M. Hands up those who think they paid up!

The Court has sent Receivers into MAGE (today I think) who are now in control of the company. I suppose they'll want to know where all the money's gone eh!

The 'fat lady' is singing her last verse methinks, just the final chorus to go!:D

As for LMF's silence - I think he's been shafted too, poor chap.

[OvertHawk]

Thanks for the clarifications all!

It does sound like a real "Bu@@€r$ muddle" doesn't it :confused:

OH

[Qualityman]

Longmint, in the form of 'Mann Aviation Group (Engineering) Ltd' (MAGE), rents hangar and office space from 'Albermarle Fairoaks Ltd.' MAGE owns Alan Mann Helicopters (AMH)

This is no longer the case, a new company now holds the leases for the Hangar and Office spaces leased to MAGE and AMH. I believe the new company is owned by Royal bank of Scotland.

[Ackers Caffer]

Whilst the property may have changed ownership, it remains managed by EGAN PROPERTY ASSET MANAGEMENT LIMITED. No change really.

[fluffy853]

Is It MAGE that has gone into alledged receivership, or Longmint (Aviation,)
therefore affecting Sterling etc, or indeed Longmint themselves?

[Ackers Caffer]

Fluffy

Just MAGE (and therefore AMH) so far -

Someone else has petitioned to Wind Up Sterling - (London Gazette Notice 1344940)

AC

[fluffy853]

Its a shame, but having lost their AOC, which took some time to get back, loosing their 145 fixwing Approval, which i dont think they have got back yet. Plus loosing staff through redundancy and of their own choice, guess it was just a matter of time?

[Whirlygig]

Someone else has petitioned to Wind Up Sterling - (London Gazette Notice 1344940)There is only one petition and that's it.

Cheers

Whirls

[996]

Whirls, since it seems to be one of your areas of expertise, can you tell me a bit about what is known as the Directors Fund? I mean specifically - is that fund separate from the companies finance accounts? Thanks.

[Whirlygig]

Directors Fund? :eek:

Not a generally accepted or used term under the Companies Act. Sounds like a "pot" to me.

I've heard of Directors' Loan Accounts whereby either the Company owes the Directors or the Directors owe the Company.

The first is where a Director (who is usually a shareholder/owner as well otherwise there's no point) lends the company some cash say, for investment in new equipment or as a start-up company. The Company will need to repay the Directors that money. These are usually shown in the accounts under "Creditors".

The latter is where the Company lends the Directors some cash and, with a few convoluted exceptions, are illegal. In practice, it happens all the time but decent directors will make sure it all gets paid back before the financial year end. If there are any Directors' Loans like this, they are shown under Debtors and the Auditors will draw attention to them by way of a separate note.

996, where did you see this? I'm intrigued.

Cheers

Whirls

[ExMAGE]

We all now know that Sterling, AMH, MAGE and FAST are owned by Longmint Aviation. However the legal actions previously mentioned refer to the individual companies. Does this mean that while the companies in question are potentially closed that Longmint can continue.

Previously in this thread there was mention of the change of registration of several aircraft to the Alan Mann Aviation Group Ltd, is this company in anyway connected to the receivership or is it allowed to continue.

I suppose the crux of the question is, are these proceedings a clever way of writing off the debt and starting again?

[chevvron]

Considering the number of times they've gone into administration, been bought out by the same directors, and continued trading, you tell us.

[Whirlygig]

Does this mean that while the companies in question are potentially closed that Longmint can continue.Yes.

are these proceedings a clever way of writing off the debt and starting again? Yes, but it's not necessarily that clever.

If an Insolvency Practitioner is appointed to wind up a company, then part of his or her work will be to investigate the actions of the directors. If said IP considers that their actions were grossly negligent or fraudulent, then charges could be brought and the directors could be disqualified, or fined, or both. Or, in some circumstances, imprisoned.

Cheers

Whirls

[foxmead]

I take it, it is business as usual for the remainder of the companies in the group?

[996]

Whirls, what about the shareholders? Are their interests looked after in this process? Of course there are only three of those?:uhoh:

[Whirlygig]

The shareholders are, quite rightly, at the very bottom of the list of who gets paid out when a company is dissolved. Everyone else has to be paid first.

There is only one shareholder in Sterling Helicopters Ltd; Longmint Aviation Ltd. Longmint Aviation is majority owned by Longmint Group Ltd (there is a minority individual shareholder) and Longmint Group Ltd is owned by the Triumvirate of BBC.

Whilst my Dun & Bradstreet account is on overload at the moment, I also note that Longmint's Statutory Accounts are overdue as is the Annual Return so they are also racking up fines at Companies House. That Company Secretary must be on the ball eh?

Cheers

Whirls

[996]

Thank you Whirls

[ExMAGE]

I suppose the next questions are; what happens next and how long does this all take.

I am surprised that this news hasn't hit anywhere but here, whereas the Von Essen news is in many places.

[996]

ExMage, its on Helihub but no where else obvious. Guess the reality is that it is probably perceived as just another company going to the wall. The reality of all that has preceeded this and the 'peculiar circumstances' are I'd imagine, unknown to the vast majority.

[fluffy853]

So what's next for MAGE?
Who has been appointed administrators or receivers?
What is the differance?
Are the cummings family still in control of the company?

How did the meeting with the staff and the administrators/receivers go, today, anybody know?

[ExMAGE]

996

Thanks, I did see the information about Sterling, but I have yet to see anything about similar action at Fairoaks.

AC

The Court has sent Receivers into MAGE (today I think) who are now in control of the company. I suppose they'll want to know where all the money's gone eh!

Where did you get this info?

I am obviously not a fan of the Longmint organisation, but would not want misinformation spread about either.

I know this is a rumour network but some things shoud be substantiated. I am sure you are correct, if not now in the future, but would like to see a reference.

[Ackers Caffer]

EM

I don't believe that I've spread any misinformation on this site and wouldn't dream of doing so. Sorry but I don't have a link to point you to at the moment - all I can offer is 'reliable sources.'

By way of substantiation, employees at MAGE were informed today that the Administrators are in.

Watch this space.

[996]

Recovery plan?? MAGE has a chance but only a slim chance and that entirely based upon past reputation. Unfortunately, whilst associated with the BBC and their total and utter ineptitude, any plan is doomed to fail simply becuse their reputation [BBC] is currently un-paralleled in failure. To such an extent that since the mid 1970's they have never managed to avoid failure in all they are associated with. It is to such an extent that you could be forgiven for thinking that it is all by design however that fanciful notion is belied by the fact that that in itself would require the skills that they clearly do not have.

I forecast that there is more to come and eventualy there will be no LMA at all.

[Independent Observer]

996 - I think your post is well-sighted. As a newcomer, I put that idea forward several weeks ago but, as it was my first post, it didn't pass the Moderator. However, the events which have unfolded have supported my theory throughout. From the point when BBC/LMA started buying the companies involved in this group, it was with a view to bidding for the SAR(H) contract. Once it was discovered that they didn't get past first muster, everything else became a millstone round their necks and no effort was spared in starving the various operators within the group of funds, hence their downfall one by one. Instead of considering the Triumvirate inept, I think that their actions have been part of a master plan and nothing, but nothing, will stop them until it's over. TAMS, Sterling, MAGE have all gone and are now part of history. The guys/guyesses at FAST must be wondering when the sword will fall on them.

[chevvron]

MAGE hasn't gone yet nor has AMH.

[wigglyamp]

There's nothing on Companies House to suggest MAGE or AMH are in receivership - can someone confirm that they are, and who are the apponted administrators?

[oldetonian]

interesting thread. Nothing new how a company is run, although i would suspect that the profitable parts of the business will keep going or could they be sold and who could be possible buyers??

[996]

Independent Observer - Instead of considering the Triumvirate inept, I think that their actions have been part of a master plan

Surely you are not suggesting that BBC are other than inept? Based upon what? A half assed notion that by buying a conglomeration of companies in an effort to be the largest on shore operator in the UK - hoping that would alone place them in the running?

I am familiar with those companies and individually there is not a one with the capacity to enter the SAR arena, together even less of a chance. What of BBC/LMA? There is absolutely no administrative structure to support itself correctly let alone a grand notion of SAR.

That one concept alone should have warned everyone that this was going to end in tears. BBC were never and never will be, equipped for such a lofty venture, their past history alone specifies that.

[jonwilson]

I would like to meet the chap or chapess who old them 'buy all these companies and you would be in the running to bid for the SAR(H) contract'.

Either that was a joke or somebody does not have a clue about the Search and Rescue concept.

What were they hoping to bid with, R44's!

[Ackers Caffer]

996

Hear! Hear!

Unfortunately, I too am familiar with these companies and am looking forward now with great excitement to their impending and unavoidable demise.

I think that BBC should be enlarged though - to BBCC, so that their insufferable little brother is included.

The High Court appointed Receiver has been at MAGE for over a week now - management have even admitted this to some of their staff! I suppose it will be another couple of weeks before they report back to the Court and the Administrator is sent in. Sadly though, a sale would be unlikely; notwithstanding the irreparable damage BBCC/LMA have done to the good names of Sterling, Mann Aviation and Alan Mann; due diligence into such a can of worms would take forever!

"he who sups with the Devil should have a long spoon!"

[fluffy853]

Guess longmint have in a way got what,they reported were after, search and rescue, but by the receivers/administrators.
Search through the accounts and rescue the company if at all possible.

[996]

Fluf, its very hard to see any decent outcome when reputations have been damaged, contracts lost and probably money not where it ought to be. Thats not taking into account the severe lack of personnel of the right quals. I do not think anyone in their right mind would apply for a vacancy under the circumstances. Of course someone might take a risk and buy but there are few with the industry nouse and spare capacity to do so. But you never know.

[fluffy853]

996, your probably right.

Rumour has it that after key people (in lower management, qualified and skilled) left by redundancy, sackings and of their own accord, they were replaced by contractors, who probably charged a lot because of the risk factor, because of the state the company was/is in.


What has the MAGE got as assests?
Once reputation, contracts and customers have gone/going, whats left?

[theloudone]

Maybe, just maybe, you guys should get the real facts !
The thread is getting boring and inaccurate. I KNOW the management at the cole face are doing a cracking job, FACT.
Just because the "onwers" are not that professional, why knock the supporting management, and of course you know for sure the lower management are contract staff ????

[Rigga]

It is, hopefully, that very lack of senior managemental professionalism, and the now repeatedly recorded, lack of duty of care towards their responsibilities in several individual Organisational Approvals that MAY be highlighted to the CAA, by the CAA, for future references with regard to "BBCC/LMA" suitability in any meaningful ownership of any further aviation interests.

Or am I crediting the CAA with too much common sense in the use of their own records?

[cladosporangium]

Unless the senior management, (and I use the term in the loosest sense), is willing to support the people at the coal-face then it is impossible to make progress. FACT :ugh:

[oldetonian]

I agree with Theloudone, having read through this thread it has become rather tedious, the drawn out waffle from some members is tiring in the least.

I have nothing to do with or have had any dealings with the Longmint group, but they probably act in no less a manner than other individuals who own / run a business. I wonder what employees of other members of Longmint would have to say about this thread?

Yes this is a small industry in relation to others that could be mentioned, but i get the feeling that some people rabbit on about what is happening with this business just to convey rumours and possibly mischief. Taking the neutral standpoint i wonder how many of the contributors of this thread may work for the competition and are putting in their opinions............. happens in other industries!!

[Rigga]

Interesting starting post from OldTone - A Troll?

- FYI
I have links with SHL for several years from several other organisations. I have also had professional contact with LMA. I am not in a competitive job/contract.

I confess to liking the former and not the latter.

[Whirlygig]

Oldetonian, the vast majority of the contributors to this thread know about, and care, what is happening to the various Longmint companies. What you read may just seem like rumour and mischief but, those who are closer to the situation can read between the lines.

As someone who part-owns and runs a business, I can assure you that what the Longmint directors are doing is not common, or acceptable practice.

If it sounds like tedious waffle, may I suggest it's because you don't know the circumstances. Personally, I think it is to the credit of the contributors here that some of the exact details have not been explicitly stated and that discretion has been adopted.

Cheers

Whirls

[oldetonian]

Whirygig -Yes you may be closer to this situation than i, however in my experience what seems to be happening is something i have witnessed other individuals do over the years.
I also appreciate that this forum does provide a basis for pilots to view their opinions about what is going on in the industry & ask for information that possibly other well connected sources may provide.

I inserted my opinion about this thread and do not mind whether others agree or disagree, as i said earlier you may well be closer to this situation than i. Fortunatley for me i am glad i sold my businesses when i did.

[996]

oldetonian

I have nothing to do with or have had any dealings with the Longmint group,

Then your opinion is based upon what precisely?

but they probably act in no less a manner than other individuals who own / run a business.

Oh you say :ugh: Your ignorance on the issue is astounding.

The majority of people who comment in this thread have the benefit of contact with the companies involved and more importantly, have a comprehensive understanding of the history behind BBBC/LMA. You clearly have neither.

I wonder what employees of other members of Longmint would have to say about this thread?

What makes you think that they are not aware or indeed contributing?

Taking the neutral standpoint i wonder how many of the contributors of this thread may work for the competition

Competition? You really do not understand at all do you? Most if not all of the participants in this thread are genuinely concerned and are fervent supporters of the individual companies that have been trashed by BBCC/LMA. Nobody has or is slagging off the management or the workers at the coal face because we know exactly what they are up against. You'd do well to research BBCC before posting further.

[ExMAGE]

Oldetonian

You are doing a very passable impression of a troll.

To reiterate Whirls and 996 comments,many on this thread have had direct dealings with LMA/BBCC. There are current and previous employees here and whilst I am sure there are a few competitors as well, very few if any have had negative comment about the original companies.

We are not talking about a normal company or way of doing business.I you re-read, or indeed read for the first time, some 350 posts you will see employees that haven't been paid on time or correct amounts since last summer. Large important contracts have been allowed to rot on the vine. Key personnel have left; causing the loss of CAA approvals.

Also, there have been previous threads discussing the sacking due to gross misconduct, etc. If you look back and search a little you will find many threads associated with BBCC, Longmint and Erinaceous. Many of the previous threads were defended by senior personnel from Longmint, Longmint Flyer an obvious one, where are they now?

I find the SAR(H) idea laughable but seeing how BBCC do business I don't doubt it was possibly their aim. Remember the aim in their previous business was to create a "one stop property shop". That failed with £250 Million of debt; see a trend?

If this organization was really about providing a quality aviation service than maybe the would have sold off the multi million pound mansion, their luxury hotel or any of their large property portfolio, even their matching Aston Martins, to ensure that contracts were maintained. Longmint have invested bu**ger all in these companies; look at the state of the buildings at Fairoaks, the lack of credit with suppliers leading to customer aircraft being delayed etc.

Yes, this thread is getting a bit dull because there is little to add at the moment, it may change in the near future. However, it should remain so that those without knowledge of the relevant companies can be given a reason to ask questions, and get answers, before committing to spend any money with LMA. None of us want to see anyone else hurt by what must be an impending demise.

[996]

cladosporangium - Unless the senior management, (and I use the term in the loosest sense), is willing to support the people at the coal-face then it is impossible to make progress. FACT

Clads you sound very much like someone who has a beef with the senior management. Could it be that you are one of those who have suffered on the shop floor? Well if that is the case you have my sympathy but I am confused as to how the senior management [and I take it that you mean the managers etc] could have supported the workers better. If you have any understanding of LMA at all then you would surely have realised that management at all levels below BBCC have absolutely no autonomy in role and are kept in the dark also. All they can do is respond under the dictatorship reminiscent of Napoleon, the best they can. Is it not true that many have left because of this? The rumblings of this debacle have been on going on for a number of years and those with the gumption have been keeping tabs in order to alleviate the fall-out and to respond in time to mitigate personal upheaval. I know a number of people who are looking at a pile of poo for their future the rest of this year and they have my sympathy but the writing has been on the wall for some time now. Pity you if you cannot read.

[oldetonian]

Ah! I see a pattern here with some users, if you do not agree with their views, then petty name calling & a case of ignorance is the response?

Well as i mentioned earlier i am unconcerned if my views are met with disagreement, seems to me that a small click of users are at work here. Whilst i understand the nature of this thread i also feel it has become tedious and that opinion has not changed.

Enjoy the rest of the Bank Holiday, i believe some people need to loosen up and not be so self absorbed in their comments.

[Whirlygig]

Sorry oldetonian but this cannot be allowed to pass ...

then petty name calling & a case of ignorance is the response?Where has anyone resorted to petty name calling? As for ignorance, you yourself admitted to knowing nothing about the situation. Knowing nothing is, ipso facto, the definition of ignorance. Whilst the word "ignorance" may be used in a perjorative contaxt, it has been used here correctly.

seems to me that a small click of users are at work here.Indeed, they'd be the ones who know, care or are involved in the situation.

i also feel it has become tedious
This thread, and this forum, is not here for your sole amusement. As a new poster (if, indeed, you are), you should be aware of forum etiquette. Personally, I find Coronation Street tedious so, guess what? I don't watch it.

and not be so self absorbed in their comments. I don't think many of the posters on this thread are self-absorbed. However, constant use of the personal pronoun and protestations of being bored, indicate pot-kettle-black.

Cheers

Whirls

[Ackers Caffer]

If oldetonian isn't a troll, he's certainly making a good job of imitating one.

He shows the same contempt for users of this network that BBCC/LMA shows to those unfortunate enough to cross their path. His arrogance alone would easily qualify him for membership of their inner circle of 'yes men'.

Best ignored I think.

:suspect:

[Fly_For_Fun]

Wirls, does that make you an East Enders fan? I am shocked!!! :confused:

[Whirlygig]

FFF, go and wash your mouth out :) ..... I don't do any soap operas, not even The Archers :}

Cheers

Whirls

[whodictus]

oldetonian
You may well have read this thread but either you do not understand what is going on here or as has been said previously you are part of the BBCC inner circle. The fact remains there are people out there, some of whom I would call friends others can I call colleagues who are not being paid on time or correct amounts this is a fact, they have bills and mortages to pay another fact which may or may not penetrate your thick skin, and their senior management do not seem to give a toss. If you think this is correct I feel sorry for any one that has to work with you, and I treat you with the same contempt you show to others.

[Baggywrinkles]

996
Nice reference to Napoleon have you read this
TMF: A Touch of the Napoleon’s / Paulypilot's Pub - Share Ideas (http://boards.fool.co.uk/a-touch-of-the-napoleon8217s-10850406.aspx) ;)

[F.A.TAlbert]

oldetonian - Ah! I see a pattern here with some users, if you do not agree with their views, then petty name calling & a case of ignorance is the response?
Well as i mentioned earlier i am unconcerned if my views are met with disagreement, seems to me that a small click of users are at work here. Whilst i understand the nature of this thread i also feel it has become tedious and that opinion has not changed.The word you are looking for is 'Clique' not click.:ugh:

Enjoy the rest of the Bank Holiday, i believe some people need to loosen up and not be so self absorbed in their comments. You really are a numpty are you not?

Or Troll indeed?

[A.Agincourt]

The English mowed down the French knights with just a lightly armed force fighting with the welsh longbow.There is hope if you believe in the eventual triumph of good over evil. Those who do evil by man shall reap the rewards of their machinations, though they may never realise such until their end. Ward off the tentative fall of ambiguity and strike whilst the iron is hot! For that alone will paint the future and those who fail to see their future will be as flotsam in the present.

Ace

[Torquetalk]

The word you are looking for is 'Clique' not click.:ugh:


He/she may be Welsh. There, the accepted pronunciation of clique is click. It is, however, spelt cwnnt.

[whodictus]

TT
MAYBE THE W SHOULD BE REPLACED WITH A U FOR SOME OF THESE PEOPLE :mad:

[Whirlygig]

....er.... in the Welsh language, the "w" is the equivalent of our English "u" ... as in Cwm Rhondda :)

Cheers

Uhirls

[ExMAGE]

TT, Who and Whirls
Not sure who you are refering to the orininal "click" reference was:

Quote:
seems to me that a small click of users are at work here.
Indeed, they'd be the ones who know, care or are involved in the situation.:oh:

Anyway Here's hoping that the administrators, if they exist, had a restful weekend and are ready to get deep into the books tomorrow.

EM

[cladosporangium]

Torquetalk,

Quite Excellent! I was giggling for ages about that. (no, I'm not Welsh)

I expect that most of us "got it" before it was so eloquently explained, but that too provided another attack of mirth thanks to Uhirls.

Well-done. :D

[ExMAGE]

Saw this on the Engineers forum


Was told MAGE went into admin 21/4/11, administrators are Begbies Traynor of EC3,

[996]

Considering all the financial difficulties in the group FAST seem to be doing extraordinarily well. Must be a sh1t load of punters learning to fly recently:

30/04/11 STATEMENT OF CAPITAL;GBP 751849:ooh:

[Rotorswish]

Well pay day has rolled round again, has anyone been paid. I heard a little rumour that some people are still waiting to be paid from previous months. :ugh::ugh::ugh:

Maybe Fast should share some of then pennies with the rest of the group!!

[Whirlygig]

996, may I ask where you got that little gem? As far as I know, the Longmint Group are 7 months late in filing their accounts. Also, that figure may include the book value of aircraft owned (including any which have been mortgaged).

Cheers

Whirls

[996]

Whirls - companies house - Fast - simples.
:p

[Whirlygig]

It's the issued share capital (all of which is now owned by Alan Mann Aviation Group Ltd) which represents the net figure of book value of helicopters owned less loans, plus cash, debtors and creditors.

However, what we don't know (as the last accounts to be filed were for 30 April 2009) is how much their losses have eaten into that share capital.

It really doesn't tell us anything.

Cheers

Whirls

[996]

Whirls your post has me a bit confused. 30/04/11 STATEMENT OF CAPITAL;GBP 751849 refers to Fast Helicopters not LMA or any other. A quick check of the same info for all the other companies shows what I find to be curious. But then I don't understand these things very well.

[TOTM2U]

996/Whirls

Edited as post won't format correctly, just a list now.
No coalface so got to dig something :E

*Longmint Group LTD (03732611)

*Longmint aviation LTD (03169347)

*South East Property Services LTD(01658096)

* Longmint LTD (02779240)

* Leagate (04051100)

* MEC Property Consultancy LTD (02833865)

* South East Property Services LTD (01658096)

*Proudale LTD (01349564)

*Skydrift (01965594)

*Mann Aviation Group (02709897)

*Sterling Helicopters (02326613)

*Alan Mann Helicopters LTD (01006211)

*Newick Park LTD (03105480)

*TAMS (Cant be Bothered looking)

* FAST Helicopters (as above)

* all comapny addresses are located at
HANGAR 4
SHOREHAM AIRPORT
SHOREHAM-BY-SEA
WEST SUSSEX
BN43 5FF


* ERINACEOUS
**ISG Occupancy
**Jordan's Residential Lettings
**Hercules Property Services
**Entente (formerly Francis Graves and Naismiths)
**Leach Rhodes Walker
**PPH Commercial
**Millar Kitching
**Mount Street Holdings
**Johnson Cooper
**Pier Management
**Tolley
**Rose Project Services
**Tom McNamara & Partners
**Egan Lawson
**John Nolan Associates
**Keelan Westall



* Large company failed (as opposed to a medium or small company)
** small companies bought and failed allegedly

anybody got anything on the Schweitzer court case.
I must give them a call with info
No coalface so got to dig something :E

[Whirlygig]

996, I was referring to FAST as well. FAST Helicopters is now entirely owned by Alan Mann Aviation Group Ltd, not Longmint AViation Ltd. OBviously we know they are all "connected" but there is now no direct ownership by Longmint.

The share capital of a company, as a stand-alone figure, doesn't really tell us much.

A company's balance sheet could typically look like

Fixed assets £2,000,000
Stock £ 300,00
Debtors £ 800,000
Cash £ 151,849
Creditors £( 600,000)
Long term loans £( 900,000)

Net worth £1,751,849

Represented by

Share capital £ 751,849
Profit reserves £1,000,000

Net worth £1,751,849


The same company, two years later, with the same level of trading could now look like
Fixed assets £2,000,000
Stock £ 300,00
Debtors £ 800,000
Cash £ 0
Creditors £( 600,000)
Long term loans £( 2,748,151)

Net worth £(248,151)

Represented by

Share capital £ 751,849
Losses to date £(1,000,000)

Net worth £(248,151)
The second is a company with the same share capital but negative net worth and trading illegally without the means to pay its debts.

Hope that helps,

Cheers

Whirls

[996]

Whirls /TOTM2U Thanks for that.

[Ackers Caffer]

996, Whirls and TOTM2U,

All good and interesting stuff - if a little heavy for the ordinary mortal.

Am I right in thinking that Longmint Aviation is now slithering into Alan Mann Aviation Group? (do hedgehogs slither ... or is it only snakes?)

On an accountancy matter, would it be considered normal business practice say, for a Company to be tranferring money (like about £3m say) to other 'companies' in it's group, therefore leaving it with little or no working capital and not being able pay its creditors or pay it's employees (on time at least) but pay its shareholders/directors a huge (over £1M say) dividend? Why would a company do this? Still, I expect an Auditor would raise an eyebrow, if not a Receiver!

Cheers
AC

[theloudone]

996, Whirls and TOTM2U,Ackers Caffer,

Guys/Gals, do i take it you work for any of the mentioned companies, or have an investment tied up in them ?

If not, why bother ? Is it really worth the effort !

[996]

theloudone: You may take nothing for granted, I cannot speak for the others - though I know their connection - but I am interested because I have a lot of friends and colleagues who are affected. Other than that, we need to know just in case these company cripplers 'nudge' in anywhere else. Fore warned is fore armed.:(

[996]

AC - they have been mentioning the AMAG since early last year so no doubt that activity has been underway for a while now. The only shareholders are BBC except in the case of Fast when IM is added to the list.

[Rigga]

As 996 says, in my meagre dealings even I was told of a BBC ambition of a centralisation of the greater "organisation", probably toward the Mann Group.

[theloudone]

996

"Ditto" in fact, i am probaly closer than you !

[Whirlygig]

would it be considered normal business practice say, for a Company to be tranferring money (like about £3m say)

Yes, quite common where the company loaning the cash can afford it.

to other 'companies' in it's group, therefore leaving it with little or no working capital and not being able pay its creditors or pay it's employees (on time at least)

Nope.

but pay its shareholders/directors a huge (over £1M say) dividend?

Doesn't quite work like that (or shouldn't within the Companies Act).

There could be one of two scenarios - Company A (a holding company) takes a loan from Company B (the subsidiary). This is just a cash transaction and recognised as a debtor in Company B and a creditor in Company A. It does not impact upon the Profit and Loss account. It is illegal to pay dividends to shareholders unless there is enough profit to cover that dividend.

The second situation is where Company A charges Company B a "management fee". This is quite normal within many holding & subsidiary company relationship as long as the management fee is representative of some genuine cross company charges. In this situation, Company A may make a profit and could pay dividends.

However, where Company A charges large fees for not much service, the HMR&C tends to get very excited as it is a way of creating tax losses in one company to be offset against other profits. Get it right, and you reduce your tax bill.

Yes, an auditor would also get quite excited which may be why the statutory accounts are 7 months late. A receiver/liquidator would also be delving as deep as they can in the circumstances and may well report company fraud to BIS (was BERR, was DTI, was Board of Trade).

theloudone, I wouldn't worry about other peoples' motives for posting here - not worth the bother. :}

Cheers

Whirls

[996]

With all these legal dealing going on I reckon the groups legal team are working very hard. Hmmmm let me see now I wonder who that might be then?:mad: Bet the fees for services are healthy as they once were to such an extent during the Erinaceous period that a few eyebrows were raised.

[ExMAGE]

Seems to be a lot of linked companies? I wouldn't want to try to audit where all the monies went.

G-INFO shows almost all aircraft now registered with Alan Mann Aviation as opposed to MAGE or AMH. Even FAST only have one left, G-HHOG irony?

Sterling still have several on their books including at least one that has been at FAST for a long time.

Is there any news on the outcome from Sterlings hearing last week?

[JulieAndrews]

Excel are currently seeking a Chief Pilot for our client an established rotary company based in the East of England.

The successful candidate will already be in a Chief Pilot role and have type ratings on at least 2 of the following types:

A109, S76, Bell 206/407,AS350/355, BO105, BK117, Schweizer 269 and R22/44.

Please send us your CV if you are interested in this role.


dare you!!

[Ackers Caffer]

EM

STERLING
The hearing was adjourned for 42 days. I wonder which party asked for that?

MAGE/AMH
Joint Administrators (acting on behalf of the Creditors) arrived on site today at 1045. I assume the Receivers (who were acting on behalf of the Court) have completed their task.

Now the real fun begins!

AC

[996]

Nice one Julie :D that is so funny except that I s'pose that there are quite a few unsuspecting individuals out there despreate for a job who might give this a go. I do hope that nobody falls into the 'fly Trap'.

[mugwumps]

the vultures are circling.
Some of them are pretty big.

[996]

mugwumps - please explain 'vultures'.

[mugwumps]

Potential buyers for Mann aviation.
Who they are already seems to be common knowledge.
What is for sale?What is owned by Manns and what by Longmint.

[Whirlygig]

Who they are already seems to be common knowledge.Then please share ...

Cheers

Whirls

[996]

mugwump- most of the info you need is posted in this thread if you care to read. As an employee of AMG you shirley have received info about a possible buyer, but are you sure that is not just crap to fob you all off? C'mon spit it out.

[mugwumps]

Is that your spelling 996 or are you addressing someone else(shirley).
Hypothetically if you are in the legal profession i imagine you will know judges and administrators etc and can go through the motions of selling a business in receivership while knowing your bid is blessed.
So if interested parties come along to view that could be all they do.
Hypothetically.
No need to name names if the above is what you suspect.
Just a few local aviation businesses,you can imagine.Some not so local.

As an employee?

[Baggywrinkles]

I hear that the S333 are moving abroad from Shoreham no doubt going to FUCHS Heli as some they recently sold one. Does anyone know if this is true?

[996]

Saw a report on helihub that seems to confirm that but why the Fuchs want them?

[firebird_uk]

If Fuchs picked the 333s up for a song then they'd make a cheap first turbine within a school environment. Perhaps they've won an inspection contract and are going to use them like TAMS did?

I'd have thought that whichever part of the LM group owned them then they'd be glad to see the back of them as they've not turned a blade for yonks.

[996]

Firebird - the 333 would make a good trainer, it has good flight properties but as a tool to use for utility purposes it is woefully bereft of the required basics. Also the quality of build is just not up to the machine being used as a workhorse. On a comparison to a 206 in that respect it rates no more than possibly 3/10.

Everybody is glad to see the back of them.

[helihub]

Fuchs have bought one 333 only - G-TAMB which will become HB-ZMN in due course.

[theloudone]

And this has to do with the EAAA ???

[Whirlygig]

Northing. But it has plenty to do with other company machinations which have subsequently become the topic of interest. We've moved on a bit now.

Cheers

Whirls

[fluffy853]

Bet there's a lot of people that wish BBCC would move on!!!!

[bwt]

theloudone

I totally agree, why should the good names of EAAA, BBC, BBCC or any other organisation using an acronym continue to receive derogative press just because of the 'business practices' of Neil Bellis, Lucy Cummings and those associated with them.

Pprune moderators - please change the title of this thread to something more appropriate.

[Whirlygig]

why should the good names of EAAA, BBC, BBCCI don't think the EAAA has received any bad press here, or elsewhere. BBC doesn't just stand for British Broadcasting Corporation and BBCC is more than just the Birdlip and Brimpsfield Cricket Club.

The main protagonists in this debacle have the surnames Bellis, Bellis, Cummings and Cummings. It's a bit time consuming to keep typing them out each time and thus have been shortened.

Cheers

Whirls

[fluffy853]

If you are being show round a company that has the administrators in, shouldn't you be shown round by one of their representatives and not "NC" ?

[996]

fluffy853 If you are being show round a company that has the administrators in, shouldn't you be shown round by one of their representatives and not "NC" ?

Depends on whom is being shown around and why.

[ExMAGE]

Any news worth reporting! seems to have gone very quiet.

[plus expenses]

From the Alan Mann Aviation Group web page (right next to the CAA logo):

Nigel Geoffrey Atkinson of Begbies Traynor (Central) LLP and Philip Francis Duffy of MCR were appointed joint administrators of Mann Aviation Group (Engineering) Limited on 10th May 2011.
The joint administrators act as agents of the company without personal liability.

Surely its time for Patriot to buy another lot?

[vfr440]

Well, yes, but would you want to? Heaven only knows what you would be buying. I hear through the grapevine that more engineering staff have left (not paid etc etc) so how much would you give? Maybe £1.................... _ VFR

[fluffy853]

Make it £1-10, give them a little profit, they only paid a £1 for it and they have worked really hard destorying it!!!! May be note. just the £1!!

[Rigga]

I heard that SHL is still trying to get two types back on an approval (206 & 333?)

Best of luck to the guys and girl's struggling so hard.

[mugwumps]

Gama is the new owner.

[fluffy853]

Thats good news for the workers that remained loyal through difficult curcumstances.

Also GAMA is Alan Mann Aviation Group backwards!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Sanus]

Should be good news for those remaining at Fairoaks. Expect some serious investment. Does the deal involve the whole group?

[mugwumps]

Who are Alan Mann aviation group?
No its not the whole group just Mage.

[theloudone]

And again they are related to the air ambo thread ?
More facts needs than gossip guys.

[Whirlygig]

Geez ... there are plenty of facts that have been posted here. Try reading the entire thread ....

Cheers

Whirls

[996]

theloudone And again they are related to the air ambo thread ?
More facts needs than gossip guys.

You seem to know very little of worth concerning this issue and all the matters involved yet persist in questioning the validity of posts when the clear answer to your question is before your eyes.

I smell troll

[chevvron]

Mugwumps: 'Gama is the new owner'
I was told GAMA were only interested if they could buy the freehold to the hangar(s) rather than just the lease.

[fluffy853]

The thread is getting boring and inaccurate. I KNOW the management at the cole face are doing a cracking job, FACT.

Ask the management you know and find out about Alan Mann Aviation Group, or look on their website.

[Ackers Caffer]

GAMA Group have indeed purchased MAGE from the Administrators. They have also been given 'licence' to operate MAGE from its current hangar.

As I understand it, BBCC think they still hold the Lease on the hangars. However, their claim is spurious since the landlord reclaimed the lease due to default; ie non payment of rent. Writs are flying around. BBCC just don't know when they're beaten!

It can only be good news though that a well respected and professional organisation such as GAMA have taken over at MAGE. Especially good news for the few remaining, long suffering employees - at least they'll start getting paid on time!

[996]

Ackers Caffer GAMA Group have indeed purchased MAGE from the Administrators. They have also been given 'licence' to operate MAGE from its current hangar.
Well good news for once. Not sure about the 'license' bit but no doubt there is more to it and what ever that is it has not deterred them so I assume not a problem.
As I understand it, BBCC think they still hold the Lease on the hangars. However, their claim is spurious since the landlord reclaimed the lease due to default; ie non payment of rent.
Well that does not surprise me. BBCC are well known to use spurious arguments simply as a means of delaying issues to gain some legal advantage or mitigate disadvantage. They can respond reasonable though, if hit [figuratively speaking] with a very big stick.
Writs are flying around. BBCC just don't know when they're beaten!
Well if they don't by now then indeed the sky on their planet is indeed a very different colour from ours!:}
It can only be good news though that a well respected and professional organisation such as GAMA have taken over at MAGE. Especially good news for the few remaining, long suffering employees - at least they'll start getting paid on time!
I am sincerely pleased that matters are improving. Lets hope that all of this will in time be but a blip in their history.

Good luck MAGE/GAMA

[mugwumps]

When staff try to return to work on Tuesday should be interesting.
The Longmint hat seems to have plenty of tricks.

[chevvron]

Does this mean the maintenance facility will move over from Farnborough or will the two sites work in parallel? If so, more parking space will be needed what with there already being 3 based BE200s and 3 PC12's (and another due to arrive soon) plus daily visitiing '200s and PC12s.

[fluffy853]

Now that MAGE has been sorted, what is the latest on Sterling and Fast?

[ExMAGE]

Interesting question,. Good news for MAGE but does GAMA do helicopters?

Who will maintain the aircraft recently transferred to AMAG? I don't think FAST have approvals to cover all the types. Did Sterling get there approvals back? just in time for the upcoming winding up

What of AHM, do they stay in the accomodation or are they thrown out? Will we see all of there aircraft towed out of the hangar and left there, they will now have to pay real money for hangar fees etc!

Heard a similar rumour about Longmint bidding:ugh:Shows that the administrators aren't stupid

[996]

ExMAGE Interesting question,. Good news for MAGE but does GAMA do helicopters?According to their website - no.
Did Sterling get there approvals back? just in time for the upcoming winding upI don't know but doubt it. There cannot be many employees left and I suspect that key position holders are still not in place. Do they have any aircrew left??
Heard a similar rumour about Longmint bidding Shows that the administrators aren't stupidI dismissed the rumour because I thought that under the circumstances, they could not bid.

[Ackers Caffer]

AMH was part of MAGE until BBCC moved it to AMAG.

AMH helicopters were/are maintained under MAGE's Part 145 (which includes, amongst other types, Agusta A109, Sikorsky S76, AS355, Bell B206). However, with all the goings on, the CAA could be excused for treating the matter with some trepidation. GAMA's management are certainly not stupid and are usually well briefed in these matters.

Longmint were trying to buy back the newly stand alone MAGE for itself - but that would have dodged all its creditors though! Surely not!

Incidently, I see that none of the AMAG companies (including FAST, Sterling, AMH) appear in the new BHA (ex BHAB) Handbook. I wonder why?


Did they not pay the fees in time?
Were they not wanted? (can you be blackballed from BHA?)
:)

[ExMAGE]

Normally Helihub website has details of Longmint activities, but this doesn't appear?

Has BBCC taken out a super injunction?

[vfr440]

I have heard a rumour (this is what this site is about, right?) that GAMA haven't exactly bought the rights to what they thought they had..... can anyone expand on this perhaps? :hmm: - VFR

[mugwumps]

Gama may have bought what they thought were buying,but Longmint may think they have the rights to something they dont.
The case went to court this afternoon.
Came out in Gamas favour.

[wigglyamp]

So what's happenning tomorrow then?

[spacejet]

(AK) No funds to pay for the BHA handbook ad.

[996]

LOL :D LMA scrabling in desperation................only to be beaten by justice. Poetic or what? :}

[mugwumps]

Im sure its not over yet,but the sun rose this morning and the birds are singing.
Of course the deal involved staff employed by Mage but there are other staff employed by Alan Mann aviation group,and contractors,who are still employed by Longmint.

[chevvron]

Apparently it took a couple of visits to the High Court before the previous owners finally accepted defeat, but the 'atmosphere' is a lot happier at MAGE now.

[Rigga]

So.
With the removal of MAGE from the BBCC inventory:
1. Will the pay packet be able to cope better now?
2. Will some signs of compliance come to the fore more quickly?

[mugwumps]

sorry people but its not over yet.
Gama have handed running of Mage back to the receiver whilst lease technicalities are investigated.
there is a court case on wednesday.

[chevvron]

And the receivers have told GAMA to run it with their permission (so I've been told).

[ExMAGE]

Has the dust settled yet?

Who is doing what at Fairoaks now?
How are the rest of the Longmint companies getting on?

[chevvron]

Decision deferred for another week ie 15 Jun.

[ExMAGE]

Was there a decision today?

[chevvron]

Don't know the full details, but Longmint are apparently willing to go to trial in order to stop GAMA, who continue to run the business as agents of the receivers/administrators.

[ExMAGE]

Typical of BBCC. I suppose as one of the Bs is a lawyer then this will be a way of extracting more money before the end, to pay for the big house and the cars. Or are they just stalling whilst trying to "tidy" their affairs before people look even closer.

[A.Agincourt]

ExMAGE: Typical of BBCC. I suppose as one of the Bs is a lawyer then this will be a way of extracting more money before the end But of course, more legal action = more fees from the LM coffers to pay for the legal representation. Just another way making more money for themselves. If they go down this road then you can bet that whatever funds that might be available to pay creditors will be substantially diminished by the time they have finished.

to pay for the big house and the cars. Or are they just stalling whilst trying to "tidy" their affairs before people look even closer. That as well.

Best Wishes

Ace

[vfr440]

Heard on the grapevine it has all been deferred (yet again) for 3 weeks :ugh: Anyone confirm? - VFR

[mugwumps]

i understood 2 weeks.

[A.Agincourt]

Two weeks? Three weeks? Timings seem unfortunate In the Matter of NEWICK PARK LIMITED (Company Number 3105480)
and in the Matter of the Insolvency Act 1986 A Petition to wind up the above-named Company, Registration Number 3105480, of Hangar 4, Shoreham Airport, Shoreham-by-Sea, West Sussex BN43 5FF, presented on 20 March 2011 by the Commissioners for HM Revenue and Customs, of Bush House, Strand, London WC2B 4RD, claiming to be Creditors of the Company, will be heard at the Royal Courts of Justice, Strand, London WC2A 2LL, on 29 June 2011, at 1030 hoursLooks like they are going to be busy. Coincidentally, today is the anniversary of Waterloo, NB finally beaten [Napoleon]. I wonder??????


Best Wishes


Ace

[lowfat]

Revenues been in asking awkward questions relating to the recent transfer of aircraft ownership and reciprocal funds. :uhoh:

[ExMAGE]

HMRC might just have lifted a very large stone. With so many companies and mortgaged assests they could be kept busy for some time, but wouldn't mind betting it will all trace to Isfield.

[helihub]

It is indeed a very tangled web. Here's another example - a managed set of properties in Sutton called Laurel Place. Check this page on their website (http://www.laurelmanor.co.uk/info.html) and two consecutive notes tell us...

2. Enquiries regarding Deeds of Covenant, lease extensions, licences to alter and notices of transfer should be directed to the Landlord, Proudale Ltd., via their Solicitors: Juliet Bellis & Co, Isfield Place, Isfield, Nr Uckfield, East Sussex TN22 5XR (DX: 133965 Uckfield 2), Telephone 01825 750811, Fax: 01825 750703.

3. Enquiries regarding the payment of ground rent should be addressed to the Freeholder's Agents: South East Property Services Limited, Hangar 4, Shoreham Airport, Shoreham-by-Sea, West Sussex BN43 5FF.

It will, of course, be no surprise to hear that the registered address of Proudale Ltd is Hangar 4, Shoreham Airport, Shoreham-by-Sea, West Sussex BN43 5FF. And exactly what is an "arms-length transaction"?

Knight Frank still have not put Isfield Place on their website, but ask them on the quiet to check the eight figure price. Count those digits.... They might just need that thatched-roof "party barn" for one last bash? (for planning application - click on [Accept] at bottom of this page (http://www.planning.wealden.gov.uk/plandisp.aspx?recno=96244))

I heard Gama were in for an initial six months to "run the company for the court-appointed receivers" - is that right?

[ExMAGE]

Whilst they have these to look forward too, how is the Sterling case going? Wasn't this case due soon.

How are the other Longmint companies going?

[helihub]

On the Helicopter Maintainers group on LinkedIn, the business development manager of AMH has posted a new thread under the title "WANTED - 6 X UH-1 Helicopters - Please contact me ASAP" - no replies to date!

Given the UH-1 is not a UK certified type, it looks like AMH are expanding their network overseas to drum up some business.

Caveat Emptor!

[vfr440]

Who on earth is he kidding? (The world doesn't want to know about a VERY dubious organisation already in administration, and did these people underwrite his request?) :ugh: :ugh:- VFR

[theloudone]

And of course the EAAA has those ! are you lot for real ????

Get real guys, what has this to do with the EAAA..... er, nothing:ugh:

[ExMAGE]

Welcome back Loudone, long time no troll!

It was pointed out some time ago (to you) that the thread title is EAA/Longmint status. Hence these posts. The EAAA was saved but many are left behind in the other companies; although MAGE may now be on road to recovery with GAMA. I am assuming the LM are still not being paid on time whilst BBCC carry on as usual.

As you probably work for the LM empire be honest(get real) and admit it is failing.

[Chris P Bacon]

Just wondering why the two 206's were pictured out on the line a few days ago?

http://i1235.photobucket.com/albums/ff428/lordjohn1/IMG_1734.jpg

[fluffy853]

Any news on the court case regarding the flagship hotel?

[theloudone]

Just dusting off the cob webs and ground running them, or did the fact the engines running and blades turning mean they clean the hanger floor in a new way ? !!!:ugh:

[ExMAGE]

Maybe getting them ready for the closing down sale! Helis and hangars!

So does anyone have an idea where this is all going. It seems to be very quiet but carrying on as normal. Are the various court cases over, I thought there were 3 cases due around now?

[cladosporangium]

This is the right place for a rumour, yes?....

Well, I heard (a rumour) that some ex-Sterling aircraft had been low-loaded out of Norwich.

Can anyone confirm/deny?

[theloudone]

True, they have

[Rotorswish]

This is the right place for a rumour, yes?....

Well, I heard (a rumour) that some ex-Sterling aircraft had been low-loaded out of Norwich.

Can anyone confirm/deny?

Any more news on this??????!?!?!?!:8::oh:

[Independent Observer]

Not sure which they are at the moment, but it's the same way that all aircraft leave from companies controlled by BBCC. It doesn't look like they understand the concept of aircraft and flying.

[996]

I beleive it was the 300 that was low loaded. Probably to Fairoaks!

[ec155mech]

negative. the 300 was sent to Shoreham.. according to a very close source

[996]

Transfer of assets?

[theloudone]

Nope, supporting a contract there,

[fluffy853]

Shame they didn't support the contracts of their staff and paid their wages in full and on time!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[ExMAGE]

I have seen that there is a new website address for the AMAG that looks just like the old site but for some reason omits to mention that the engineering aspect is in receivership.

Is this a sign of the court case being resolved or just more bluff from BBCC.

Is Sterling still going?

[A.Agincourt]

ExMage: I rather think it is a no no to trade when insolvent. Another engineer has left recently and a number of the remaining personnel on the books have had another pay failure. It's a dead duck.

Best Wishes

[500e]

"pay failure" sounds like "quality escape"words to wrap up poor management
You mean they have not been paid.
The people left have choices none of which are good, with mortgages, wife, children & poor times what do they do.

[Whirlygig]

I rather think it is a no no to trade when insolventThe technical term is "illegal" - Section 214 Insolvency Act 1986. This section makes particluar reference to the skills, experience and qualifications of the directors in assessing whether they knew the company was trading wrongfully and and therefore culpable of the offence.

I would suggest that an Management Degree (or Mickey-Mouse MBA) would be deemed a sufficient qualification to reasonably know that your company was trading wrongfully without regard to the creditors.

If fraudulent trading can be proved, then it's a criminal offence.

Another thought .... how much does a day's hire of a low-loader cost? :E

Cheers

Whirls

All these section numbers ....takes me back! ;)

[A.Agincourt]

Whirls - thank you, I also wonder if the pension funds have been scrutinised?

500e - if this set of circumstances just suddenly appeared out of the blue then I'd be of a more sympathetic mind than I am at the moment. Those that had any sense or quality of realistic thought processes have all gone and from what I hear, have found alternative employment. Many are indeed much better off than they were. That proves that there are jobs out there if you have the necessary to get them. Most also have mortgages, kids at school and all the other usual attendant financial drains. I am pleased that they are not destitute as they surely would have been had they remained. So to those who are still loitering around with nothing to do and no possibility of improvement - are you so devoid of common sense? I am saddened by it all but find it increasingly more difficult to feel any sympathy for those who choose to remain.

Best Wishes

[hands_on123]

I suggest well all read about the debacle of Biggin Hill Helicopters

http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/286644-biggin-hill-helicopters.html

Assets were flogged off, creditors/staff/students were left high and dry, and the people at the top walked away scot free, the company continued to be listed as trading up to 2 years after it all went belly up.

Doesn't matter what the law says, it's remarkably easy to rip people off and move on to go do it again, what with shell companies and other ways to dodge it.

[jonwilson]

Not wishing to divert this thread but seeing as Biggin Hill Helicopters was mentioned is it true that Bill Lowry is now back in the UK flying around in a 300? Somewhere in the South?

[hands_on123]

I hope he's just flying and not hoping to start an aviation business.

[Whirlygig]

Doesn't matter what the law says, it's remarkably easy to rip people off and move on to go do it again,Ain't that the sad truth.

One problem is that some Insolvency Practitioners can't be bothered to investigate the motives of directors and whether their actions have been negligent, fraudulent or just plain incompetent (the latter not being against the law). IPs are, not surprisingly very busy at the moment and they just want the preferential creditors (mortgage holders, HMRC etc) paid as quickly as possible and move on to the next one.

I spent a couple of hours today going through, and signing, a witness statement for the BIS Fraud department. This is unrelated to "our friends" but it confirmed to me that it can be comparatively easy to take people for a ride. Let's just say a gentleman who had already been disqualified as a director TWICE for 25 years was able to set up another company by using someone else's name. All he needed was that person's date of birth (not necessarily the real date of birth) and an address (not necessarily the real address) to form the company. Then, by role playing, pretend to be that person by opening credit accounts with businesses. A dodgy forged signature and he's away. Since he never paid any creditors, he didn't need a bank account.

However, over a lunchtime beer with said fraud investigator, I was heartened to hear that they are very interested in cases of company fraud and negligence.

One issue to be considered is that the people who remain are only there in order to get their entitlement to statutory redundancy from the National Insurance Fund.

Cheers

Whirls

[A.Agincourt]

However, over a lunchtime beer with said fraud investigator, I was heartened to hear that they are very interested in cases of company fraud and negligence.This is similar to what I have been told previously. Naive as it may sound, there are a lot of people out there who deliberately set up companies and groups with the specific intent of doing so using other peoples money and then default to the extent of insolvency and ensuing ...........I had considered that perhaps this is precisely what our 'friends' have been doing. Then I realised that was probably wrong and it is just sheer incompetence.
One issue to be considered is that the people who remain are only there in order to get their entitlement to statutory redundancy from the National Insurance Fund.There is that to be considered but the 'capped' value is not that great and with no pay or severely reduced pay up to the point of receiving SR may be badly offset by additional bills or other incurred debts.

Best Wishes

[theloudone]

Something related to this thread, long overdue, i gather the Part M has left and the AOC has been withdrawn, finally something worth posting ;)

[Rigga]

Now that is news! - I believe the part M was a recent recruit to "the company" about two/three months ago.

[theloudone]

See what i mean, you no nothing of any substance, god bless gossip web sites ! ;)

[Rigga]

Actually, I know more than you think...

[cladosporangium]

theloudone, I, for one don't "see what you mean".
The use of this childish expression is pathetic.

Explain yourself properly.

You could even attempt to spell words correctly, and use capital letters where appropriate, like a big-boy.