Job on CitationXLS or Ryanair?

[Ronand]

Hi guys I have a an Important decision to make. I'm a 700hr TT pilot with 300hrs on light turboprop.
I did an Interview and sim check with a biz jet operator, and have been on the waiting list for several months. In the meantime I attended a Ryanair assessment, and passed. I recently was informed that a position on the citation xls is available for me. The typerating is partly self funded I will be looking at approx £9000 out of my own pocket with a salary of about £2000/month after tax starting as FO. I would have to move to eastern europe but would be working for a western european company. I will be provided with the exact contract in a few days.
On the other hand I allready have a typerating starting date with ryanair and will have to make the £22000 payment for 737-NG rating within the next weeks. I would have to take on a loan in both cases... plus I'm getting close to 30 years old and this might be my last chance to get onto an airliner.
I'm really not sure what the right move here is.
What would you guys do?
I will have to make a choice within the next week.

[dan1165]

XLS job :)

[taff_lightning]

Take the XLS job, don't give FR your pound of flesh.

That is if your don't mind the move.:ok:

[what next]

:ok: XLS XLS XLS XLS :D XLS XLS XLS XLS :D XLS XLS XLS XLS :D XLS XLS XLS XLS :D XLS XLS XLS XLS :D XLS XLS XLS XLS :D XLS XLS XLS XLS :D XLS XLS XLS XLS :D XLS XLS XLS XLS :D XLS XLS XLS XLS :DXLS XLS XLS XLS :D XLS XLS XLS XLS :D XLS XLS XLS XLS :D XLS XLS XLS XLS :ok:

[flowman]

You're asking in the bizjet forum if you should join Ryanair! :ugh:
Of course you will receive completely impartial responses. Seems you already know what you want to do:ok:

[Ronand]

Ok maybe I should post it in another forum aswell, to get an objective view on the opinions. To be honest I have doubts about living in eastern europe and it may sound odd but I think ryanair would offer more job security as their fleet is huge and they are still expanding...

[what next]

To be honest I have doubts about living in eastern europe...

Where in eastern Europe would that be? I never lived there, but could very well imagine to live in towns like Prague, Bratislava, Budapest, Krakow or Gdansk. Good infrastructure, friendly people, much lower cost of living (especially housing) than in the western part of Europe.

[dan1165]

Right ;) ....

[sovereign680]

Go for the 737! Is my advice after more than 20 years in corporate / air taxi flying.

[eckhard]

I agree; go for the 737. After 1000 hours on the Boeing you will be eligable for employment on virtually any corporate jet.

If you find that you like airline work, that's great. If you find that you don't like it, stick it out for two years/1000 hours then look for a corporate job. The discipline instilled by airline flying will stand you in good stead for any future flying that you do.

Might seem unfair but that's been my experience sitting on both sides of the interview desk and line training candidates with varying backgrounds on airliners and exec jets over the past 35 years. The ex-airline guys and gals definitely had the edge over those who had never had that experience.

[Red Goose]

Ronand,
If you can afford the £13000 difference between the xls and 737 type ratings, GO for the 737 !!!!
As a relatively low-time pilot, you will get a lot of very valuable experience with Ryanair, and, in a couple of years, if you don't like it, you will probably have a lot more opportunities than you do now!
73, Ronand, 73!!
Regards,
Goose

(even though I fly the XLS myself...)

[doglegfinal]

Go for the ryanair job,
- 737 rating and experience, better then XLS-time (you know when you want to find another job)
- you're relatively low time and with ryan you'll do more sectors and lots of same routes but that will be easier for you to learn.
- you will always have a change to fly a bizjet if you like when you got the hours on the 737

only downside: take 22000 out of your pocket, jeez.

congrats with your new job, whatever it will be :ok:

[maxphlyer]

Even though I am also flying a bizjet, I have to tell you to take the 737.

Apart from the learning experience in a very standarized airline enviroment, it is much harder to build up your hours in a bizjet, some privately managed airplanes fly 2-300 hours per annum.

My advice: Get your feet wet and make the choice later!

Anyway, congrats on the job!

[skylog]

Hi Ronand,
Coming from the bizjet world myself (& I love the lifestyle), I would suggest you go for the XLS, however i tend to agree with those who suggest that you go for the 737.

A few hours in the 737 will get you into the biz jet world much easier if you find out that airline work is not for you & if it is .....well you are there already.

We all know that things at Ryanair are not ideal, however in my opinion this bizjet outfit is taking the p&%s when they are asking you to part pay the Type Rating, relocate to Eastern Europe (i guess at your own expense) & the salary is not that great either.....you might aswell provide the lube!!.http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/cwm13.gif

Good Luck with your future!

[737drvr]

Go for the 737, even though it is a Ryanair job. I have been flying for over 20 years 10 in exec an 12 on the 737. I love Executive, but an airline job is just nice and boring. (scheduled days off etc.)
Nonetheless, with your experience I think that the 737 job is the fast lane for your career.

[jetopa]

Tough choice. You ask 5 pilots and get 7 different answers - that is to be expected.

Ryanair sucks, people say, but: you collect more jet hours in a shorter time, thus making you eligible for an upgrade faster. Also, the B737 rating is universally usable - these birds are just everywhere and even if you don't find in job in a JAA country, a broker would probably love to sell your a.. to a company in China, India or wherever.

The XLS is a valuable type rating to have, too. Nothing wrong with living in Eastern Europe (depending on where, that is).

Good luck!

[hollingworthp]

Probably you will struggle to do many hours driving the XLS (my max was 350 per year at NJE and more like 200 where I am now) so in order to increase your marketability, I would go for the Ryanair job to rapidly build hours & experience for unfreezing. You can always come back to Bizjets in the future (which offer a better lifestyle in my opinion - although only ever worked in this sector)

[chief]

Hi Ronand,

How times have changed.....!!

Having only worked in the Bizjet industry and not the airlines I can only give you one perspective.

I think it depends on your lifestyle.

Firstly, the role of GA is I expect very different to Airline. With GA, you do have to look after all aspects of the flight including the catering, ice, hot water, newspapers. You do have to deal with pax directly and if there are delays - you could be in the firing line with a barrage of abuse from a disgruntled passeneger who assumes that as they have paid thousands for the plane, they should be able to go when ever they want! You do have to clean the aircraft up including the hoovering and washing up - this part isn't as glamarous. You may or may not have a roster with your existing company but your working days could be fairly varied and you might not be able to guarantee when you will be working. This is why is say, "it depends on your lifefstyle". If your married and have dependants, the pro's and con's are that you are around a fair bit (during the quiet months) but can be away from 1 night to several nights away from your family (this could be a good or bad thing!). A lot of the jobs you do will mean being away from home. Plus, you might not know when you are working so its a little unstable. However, you routing is not structured. You could be in Geneva one day and then Moscow then next, its very varied and challenging as the airports you could be landing at have limited facilities i.e. NDB only...

In your type of aircraft, its below 10t where as the the 737 is a lot lot more. However, again, the role is similar in that you are flying in RVSM airspace at the same FLs (if not higher). Your paying £10000 for the XL rating compared to the 737 which is approx double. The flying part of the job is very similar (I think!)

In terms of prospects, as I said your flying an aircraft below 10t. It can be fairly limiting as a lot of the airlines will require experienced crew members with medium to heavy jet type if you chose to move on to the airlines at a later stage. You wont be doing the same sort of hours in GA compared to what you would be doing with the likes of Ryanair as you should expect around 350-400 hours per year for GA flying whereas you are sure to expect a lot more with Ryanair. So again, for career progression if you dont have a lot of hours then it will take you some time to climb the ladder.

Again, in terms of lifestyle. Its hard to make plans with your family and friends in GA. It is workable, only if you have an understanding partner and friends. If your roster permits, you might have one or two weekends a month off a month or none at all as the majority of the time, especially in the summer months, working Fridays - Sundays are the norm.

In regards of Pay. It depends....from my knowledge the majority of airline work is better paid however its not always that dissimlar. Sometimes it can be more....it just depends on who you work with.

Sorry to be harping on about lifestyle but it is so important. If your a single guy and have little responsibilities, its the best job! If your committed, then its very hard! Although, I am sure with the airlines its hard too as you dont have a normal 9-5 mon - fri job (but then you wouldn't be in flying if thats what you wanted!). However with the airlines there is (I believe from my mates) more structure...you know where you are from one month to the next. In GA your lucky if its the day before!!

If you need any further advice, pm me and more than happy to offer further advice.

[Doodlebug]

Well done, one hardly hears of job offers these days! :ok:

The very few really happy pilots I know of are either well up the seniority-list at a MAJOR carrier, e.g. KLM, B.A., Cathay, etc., or have worked their way up in general aviation over many years and now fly the bigger bizjets which tend to come with proper rostering, good pay, decent colleagues and a bit of stability.

Starting at the bottom in a low-cost airline is obviously going to be tough, just as cleaning the Citations potty in a blizzard in eastern climes while waiting for the mobile to ring is no picnic. But with Ryanair you will get excellent training, good exposure (lots and lots of approaches) and you will quickly build hours, as previous posters have mentioned. The problem with starting out with low hours straight into a bizjet is that progression takes forever. Plenty of very frustrated bizjet FO's out there who never took the time to build a few hours before jumping into the shiny jet.

Maybe take the 737, get say 3000 hours, then try to get in with the likes of TAG, JET, Execujet or Comlux, to name a few. The better bizjet operators treat their employees well and the lifestyle can be very good.

Who knows, you might even enjoy airline? :E

Best of luck either way, keep us posted!

[RAPA Pilot]

Its a no brainer. Go for the 737 and learn some airline disciplin.

[TOGA 10]

I was in a similar situation few years ago. I decided to quit the bizjet world for a while to fly buses for a low cost carrier and recently I've been promoted on the left seat. I will stay a bit longer to get PIC experience and the I'll start to look again the bizjet market.

Go for the 737 job:ok:

[Rusty Trombone]

I personally have read all the links etc and knowing the industry well and your particular circumstances I would offer the advice as possible.

Corporate
Its a great position your being offered with your Low TT in addition flying a nice corporate Jet, down side to this working in corporate these positions can leave as soon as they arrive in addition you will at best do maybe 400 hours a year.

Ryan Air
we all know how good bad and indifferent the Airline can be etc, working under EU OPS lots of sectors, weather, passenger loading MMEL items, crew duty times, crappy hotels, Fuel police on your case. 900 hours max per year.

This is the best OJT you can get at your level and take the 700 rating do you time and in 3 years time you should have 3500 hours under your belt.

You need to be in a structured operation gain all of the above and then consider the choices.

Your a very lucky person to have options I know so many TYPE RATED Pilots looking for work.

Good Luck in your choices.

[G-SPOTs Lost]

Sorry Old chap had to bite.....

Its a no brainer. Go for the 737 and learn some airline disciplin.

Its easy to be disciplined in an airline as the mode of flying lends itself to repetition, at FR you will see the destinations that they fly to from your base and thats it. SOP's are much easier to apply in those cases as you know the routes and the likely curve balls that ATC will throw at you.

Now imagine jumping in your XL on a Monday and not knowing if the sector after next will take you N/S/E or west. CRM demands are greater as you will no doubt be spending extended periods with your other pilot including evenings out possibly and you must have that chameleon factor to be able to get along without friction.

In addition you will be encouraged/required to fly outside of CAS into smaller airfields, encouraged to join with other VFR traffic you will find yourself behind a PA28 downwind at 130 knots.

You will NEVER get that mix of flying at an airline, its why airline guys who to be honest in the main (sorry to generalise) stumble from one radar environment to another can take a long time to line train.

I know lots of Airline guys who cant file a flight plan. If you cant think on your feet join Ryanair.

Also regardless of weight and if requested you can see rates of climb and or huge rates of acceleration that you will never ever see in an airline environment. If you can handle that every day any boeing or bus TR will not be a problem going forward.

[jackx123]

Depends what your ambitions are but realistically to upgrade you will be joining either a middle eastern airline or asian since they are the only ones with a degree of growth:

http://www.pprune.org/middle-east/288896-joining-qatar-airways-qr-all-you-need-know-about-threads-merged.html

http://www.pprune.org/middle-east/249792-etihad-employment-threads-merged-all-you-need-know.html

[brother rice]

No brainer, FR. Hours, some tricky destinations onto runways that are performace limiting etc.. Will be much more difficult going from corporate to Airline than the other way.

[Klimax]

I did my first 1000H on light twin turboprobs. The next 10 years with two major airlines. Now recently entered Biz Jet aviation and have a lot to learn - from this part of our industry and looking forward to it. So far so good.

There is no doubt in my mind that the Airline standard of training and checking will be beneficial for your flying career forever. It will teach you SOPs and attitudes that you later on will apprecite in the Biz Jet environment where a lot of decisions will be left up to you as a commander and help to be found is limited.

At the end of the day though - the question really is what kind of lifestyle and flying you are looking for. "Boring" low-coast airline flying from A to B getting burned out or more interesting and diverse Corporate Biz Jet flying with lots of exciting flying with or without autopilot engaged.
The Biz Jet job will later on give you an opportunity to work something like 16on/14off and you can live where you want - but you are away from you family for a long periode of time. The arline job you may be at home - as I belive in Ryanair's case - ever night - but will you be "there" and awake or bured out

If you want an "easy" and comfortable job - go for the airline flying. Things will be in some sort of order.

I left some very comfortable airline jobs behind to join this Biz Jet industry and though the beginning havn't been the easiest of kind - I do not look back missing the airline job for a single second - though I would never have been without it either!

If I was you I would ask myself what you want with your life in say five years time from now. Whichever of the two job opportunities you believe will get you best positioned for the job providing you with that lifestyle choice - go for it.

If you after all are still in doubt - go for the Airline job now and evaluate the market and situation again after a couple of years!

Best of luck and happy for you lucky position :ok:

[BestAviation]

If money isn't a limiting factor then the 737 job may be a good idea. Corporate you can always come back to, airline jobs you will grow too old for. Besides, at 900H on some heavier stuff every year you will build some valuable time quickly. In corporate you don't fly that much...

I know a few airline guys who have later gone corporate. I don't know many who have gone the other way (or maybe that's just because biz jets are so much more fun? :})

[INNflight]

If you wouldn't have to pay for either rating, I would go for the 73. Then again it's all about what you want from your career, what lifestyle you prefer, your family situation, etc...

See above replies.

[haughtney1]

Would advise you to go to RYR, purely for the likelyhood that you'll recieve more consistent training to a likely higher standard. You'll also benefit from a more structured SOP environment whilst you learn your trade.
Many many guys and girls struggle with the bizjet to airline transition, the same certainly isn't true with airline to bizjet (just look at TAG, Nietjets..plus a few more besides) although to be fair, it is a totally different world to airline flying.
I've flown GA, Airlines, then went to Bizjets, and am now working back in the Airlines. My personal preference would have been to stay in the Bizjet world..but with a wife, kiddies and mortgage..bizjets just dont offer that financial security...unless of course you are one of the 5% or so who bag a job with a great owner/family who view you as an idespensible member of their team.
Go to RYR, experience the life...then when you are settled and dont have to think too hard about actually flying anymore...have a look at bizjets if you are still interested.
One last thing...the biggest issue ex airline guys face with their transition to bizjets is quite simple..FLEXIBILITY...so if you are prepared to be flexible...a few thousand 737 hours will look good on your CV, better in fact than 500 XLS hours to the vast majority of mid-sized and larger bizjet operators (cos they pay better!)


Just a copy and paste of my post from a similar thread..posted by the same user elsewhere.

G-SPOTs Lost, sorry old chap but I have to bite back (and its not a biz vz airline thing)
I have to take issue with your comments here, with respect to guys taking longer to train..crm..and of course the lack of a plan thats common in the corporate world.
I would argue that this is PRECISELY why coming from (lets be honest) a far more structured and regulated environment stands someone with a lower level of experience a far better chance of learning good habits, rather than some of the less than desireable things I've seen from certain small jet operators.
Also, FWIW, yes its a BIG generalisation to say airliners stumble from one radar environ to another...but not always, as a case in point, I took a 777 into an airport recently...and was number 2 behind a PA-23.
CRM I wold say is in a general sense far easier in corporate..simply because you DO get to know who you are flying with..and unless you are a sociopath, it tends to allow you to figure the other bod out...it makes for a CRM level that exceeds most airliner flightdecks...unless of course you fly with one of those "unique" single pilot personalities that seem to mostly inhabit the GA ranks.
For a 700hr guy..with little real world exposure..RYR is the better option.

[G-SPOTs Lost]

Haughtney

I actually agree with you, but would still like to disagree on a couple of points.

Your tale of following a Piper in your 777 is very quaint but how many of those do you do compared to being put on the localiser at 12 miles and flying 160 to 4 - be honest.

In corporate you might well be on the road for 7 days at a time with the same guy, its quite a bit different from knowing that 15 minutes after brakes on you'll be walking out to the staff car park together probably not having to enjoy each others company for another 3-6 months. Its not easier or harder its just different and not everybody is able to do it, its a big part of the recruitment process and your comment about it being far easier shows a little naivety to the situation imvho.

Different disciplines requiring different skill sets over and above the common stick and rudder skills applicable to both that we take for granted. Not difficult to learn by any means just takes a bit of time.

Airline SOP's are there in the main to account for the lowest common denominator in terms of ability and to save money and reduce risk...in that order.

But for the record probably FR - you're right

[haughtney1]

No worries G-Spot, I guess we will have to just agree to disagree (frightening for PPrune though..no personal slander or abuse!) :8

[G-SPOTs Lost]

Absolutely! Détente cordiale on prune - Blimey

[spaniel]

With FR you know what youre letting youself in for. GA covers a whole spectrum of operations, lifestyles, duties, rosters (or not)....

You need to find out as much as you can about the XLS outfit as you can. It has the potential to provide a far more satisfying range of flying, but it also has the potential for you to fly with the same frustrating tosspot week after week!!

A job with a GOOD GA outfit is better than life with Ryanair.
Ryanair is far better than a life in a poor GA company!...IMHO